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The General Star Trek Thread of Earl Grey Tea, Baseball, and KHHHAAAANNNN

maharg

idspispopd
I have no issue with reset buttons in Star Trek. In fact, I expect them. All Star Treks, including even DS9, used reset buttons on a regular basis.

Voyager's problems run much deeper than that. They come from a lack of respect for the audience on nearly every level. Also the systematic deconstruction of the franchise's best villain, the Borg.
 

benjipwns

Banned
Yes, I wasn't lamenting reset buttons in total I accept that sometimes you just have to do that to get away with the story you just told, just that nothing in Voyager mattered at all. Their default position was the reset button, and as quick as possible. DS9 did let things linger, and went out on a ten episode arc. Voyager couldn't even do two episodes without resetting at the end of the second. The Maquis alone should have provided more conflict than it did, by the end of the show Chakotay was the "by the book" guy and Janeway was flying by emotions.

And yeah, in some ways that is the most superficial of Voyager's problems. (I do however think a lot of them stem from the refusal to accept that bad things needed to happen.) The neutering of The Borg was a crime, but Descent did that as well. (Voyager imo salvaged the Borg at first before ruining them post-Scorpion.) The Cardassians and Romulans are basically the only species to ever really survive Trek. Although the Romulans did spend a lot of time as "generic villain" for TNG and went downhill fast with Nemesis. DS9 rehabbed them pretty well though, as playing both sides of the conflict (they tried to kill the Founders off with the Obsidian Order, then the non-aggression treaty, before jumping back into the fray, they outplayed the Klingons like mad in DS9), and then the best Trek episode ever resulted.

I just think I've reached a point after watching Voyager so many times that I can ignore all the complete shit they pulled and enjoy the episodes they pulled off. Similar to Enterprise. (At least until Voyager reaches its last stretch and it tries to wrap up non-existent storylines and bombs. Really, like Enterprise, the finale might be the worst "trying" episode. Threshold clearly was not trying.)

All that said, I still think Voyager's biggest failing was that it didn't matter. And the biggest issues are either related to or stem from this. There was no reason to care about the ship or the characters they'd always be fine next week. Paris and Kim could literally be imprisoned, and nobody cared a week later and it never came up again. When they actually tried to build story-arcs it was with the worst characters.

Voyager should have taken Trek in a semi-new direction and it didn't. As I noted, it was the squandering of a great concept that makes it hated. Enterprise somehow did basically the same concept as good or better, and it only took them two years to realize that things need to really matter. Voyager never seemed to know what to do.

But I'm starting to ramble which is both unfortunate and unneeded.
 
maharg said:
I have no issue with reset buttons in Star Trek. In fact, I expect them. All Star Treks, including even DS9, used reset buttons on a regular basis.

Voyager's problems run much deeper than that. They come from a lack of respect for the audience on nearly every level. Also the systematic deconstruction of the franchise's best villain, the Borg.

Basically it went from theather drama in early TNG to Michael Bay syndrome (there is even a remark about exploding spaceships in the book mostly harmless for that reason) in almost every following series, even late TNG. Dead Space Nine really is something if a happy exception, the lack of budget for EX-PLO-SIONS is probably also why Babylon 5 is a good show. Might even go for the recent BSG.


Basically, I like theather drama sci-fi.
 
Zeitgeister said:
Basically it went from theather drama in early TNG to Michael Bay syndrome (there is even a remark about exploding spaceships in the book mostly harmless for that reason) in almost every following series, even late TNG. Dead Space Nine really is something if a happy exception, the lack of budget for EX-PLO-SIONS is probably also why Babylon 5 is a good show. Might even go for the recent BSG.


Basically, I like theather drama sci-fi.


VOY seemed to throw in some bullshot space battle and sparks on the bridge every episode. It could be a character piece on The Doctor but somehow involve Voyager in a firefight for no reason.

God Voyager was ass.


I concur - in the first series or so Odo is a mean-spirited grump whose only passion is enforcing his own brand of justice, but with each progression of his character they make him less intimidating, cold & isolated until he's just some sickeningly lovey dovey, whiney, homesick annoyance

But Trek is about the exploration of the human condition. A man who is isolated and alone is going to be grumpy. But then he learns his family was not the family he imagined. Its very human nature stuff. If you say its sickening lovey dovey crap then what was TOS and TNG all about?
 
Teh Hamburglar said:
But Trek is about the exploration of the human condition. A man who is isolated and alone is going to be grumpy. But then he learns his family was not the family he imagined. Its very human nature stuff. If you say its sickening lovey dovey crap then what was TOS and TNG all about?

Please, there's nothing in TOS or TNG that comes close to Odo's pathetic puppy dog relationship with Kira. And anyways, while Trek may explore the human condition, Odo is not human, despite the fact that his reactions very much were - even so, there are half a dozen more compelling routes they could have taken for his character, but instead they decided to neuter him. When his feelings for Kira were revealed, that was the point that marked the end of any relevance his character once had, imo.
 
Ahhhhh, Kira and Odo. Two characters who could be quite annoying in their own right in the early days due to their stubborn, prickly and contemptuous nature, ended up becoming nauseating on a level only beaten by Anakin and Padme. Where was the middle ground, writers?!
I know, I know, series 3-5

I'm not sure which annoyed me more in series 7, them or Vince Fontaine....... Ah, who am I kidding. Nothing beats Vince.
 
sionyboy said:
Ahhhhh, Kira and Odo. Two characters who could be quite annoying in their own right in the early days due to their stubborn, prickly and contemptuous nature, ended up becoming nauseating on a level only beaten by Anakin and Padme. Where was the middle ground, writers?!
I know, I know, series 3-5

I'm not sure which annoyed me more in series 7, them or Vince Fontaine....... Ah, who am I kidding. Nothing beats Vince.
Well, for one, he's name's not Vince. Two, Vince was awesome. Three, Kira was an amazing character all the way through.
The whole ordeal with the Romulan hospital on one of Bajor's moons and then later the Cardassia resistance.
She was very well developed. Odo too.
 
Bootaaay said:
Please, there's nothing in TOS or TNG that comes close to Odo's pathetic puppy dog relationship with Kira. And anyways, while Trek may explore the human condition, Odo is not human, despite the fact that his reactions very much were - even so, there are half a dozen more compelling routes they could have taken for his character, but instead they decided to neuter him. When his feelings for Kira were revealed, that was the point that marked the end of any relevance his character once had, imo.


Data wasn't human? Spock wasn't human? The doctor wasn't human? Every show had the character wishing to be more human. Its simply an angle to explore humanity in a story/character.

You may not like how they handled the romance but him having a romance isnt in itself a bad thing. Adding depth and character was DS9s strong suit.
 
Teh Hamburglar said:
Data wasn't human? Spock wasn't human? The doctor wasn't human? Every show had the character wishing to be more human. Its simply an angle to explore humanity in a story/character.

But Odo didn't wish he was more human, not until after he'd revealed his feelings to Kira and realised he knew nothing about relationships, cue shitty holodeck episodes with Vic teaching him how to impress women :lol Hell, when he is human, he ends up greatly unhappy and craves to be a shapeshifter again. He isn't like Data, searching to understand emotion, or the Doctor who wishes to be so much more than a hologram, or even Spock who begrudgingly learns to express emotion through his human friendship with Kirk. Even so, all those characters were essentially humanoid, Odo's a totally alien, gelatinous lifeform who craves to learn about himself and his people, not assume the customs and ideals of an alien, humanoid race - even his most obvious trait, his sense of justice and order, is one his species is genetically predisposed to. So it just seems bizarre to me that when he does find his people, when he realizes that even though they're the leaders of the Dominion they're more like him than any humanoid ever could be, that he would just turn his back on that for the sake of some lingering feelings for Kira. There are a lot of ways they could have developed Odo, but to me the one they actually went with makes the least sense.

But this is increasingly becoming a 'we'll have to agree to disagree' sort of arguement, so i'll leave it at that. :p
 

Cheerilee

Member
Personally, I liked what little there was of the Troi's Mom/Odo relationship than either the Odo/Kira or the Troi's Mom/Picard relationships.

Tangentially, I think the Beverly Crusher/Captain Picard/Wesley Crusher trio worked (when the right tensions were in place), as did Captain Sisko/Major Kira/Jake Sisko (when the tensions eased). Kasidy Yates wasn't really needed and seemed to fit better as Sisko's mistake than his one true love.
 

DrForester

Kills Photobucket
Watching Star Trek VI again.

I love how Kirk dives to save the president, and doesn't get to him till after the assassin fires, and the only reason he survived is because the assassin missed. :lol
 

XiaNaphryz

LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
DrForester said:
All will be answered when this is released later this year.


51Xwo64dC0L._SS500_.jpg
I just noticed this was up for pre-order on Amazon, and as a hardcover. They're currently listing it at $18.22 with a release date of 11/16.
 

XiaNaphryz

LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
Anyone planning on dropping by the big annual Trek convention in Vegas this week? Apparently all the Captains will be there, except for Janeway. Sounds like a perfect lineup.
 

benjipwns

Banned
So I'm watching "The Vengeance Factor" (TNG) on WGN. And they go all CSI/etc. on some photo. First Data zooms in, then he enhances the photo, then he removes someone from the photo and reconstructs the entire thing to show the missing person.

I guess photo manipulation technology won't change much over the next 400 years.
 
XiaNaphryz said:
Anyone planning on dropping by the big annual Trek convention in Vegas this week? Apparently all the Captains will be there, except for Janeway. Sounds like a perfect lineup.
Apparently Shatner charges $80 for an autograph?
 
benjipwns said:
So I'm watching "The Vengeance Factor" (TNG) on WGN. And they go all CSI/etc. on some photo. First Data zooms in, then he enhances the photo, then he removes someone from the photo and reconstructs the entire thing to show the missing person.

I guess photo manipulation technology won't change much over the next 400 years.
Actually 300 years since we are in the 21st century now.

Good episode though. But then all the episodes pre-Roddenberry's death were good and TRUE star trek.

The thing I always like about it is we get to see them going to warp from their perspective. The only other time we get to see that as I recall is from "The Child" from season 2.
 

benjipwns

Banned
Roddenberry did ruin TNG to an extent with that whole "people in the 24-century will be past petty squabbles and shall always agree!" rule that prevented any serious disagreement within the crews. Who writes a show where the main characters can have no conflict and the only conflict must be with the "unenlightened foreign" people they come upon? Especially coming from a guy who oversaw a show where Bones was making racial (speciest?) cracks at Spock for most of its run, both of whom disagreed with Kirk and vice versa.

And then nobody else had the balls to go against this even though they had how many different people in the role we'd now call showrunner. I'm pretty sure DS9 throwing a bunch of aliens in to allow it early on made them overcompensate on the Maquis in Voyager since Berman hated DS9 so much for betraying Roddenberry.

Now I'm watching Voyager's "Basic Part II" on Spike and is this the worst cliffhanger/premiere in Trek? I don't think I had the internet at the time but did anyone seriously think there was no way they'd get off the planet? Does anyone on the crew even die except Suder? (Who is one of the more interesting characters, so of course they killed him.) The Kazon were basically useless, especially to the point in this very episode that Tom Paris and some random Talaxians bring them down because one person turned off the shields. Why were the Kazon over so much space in the first place, Voyagers like two years traveling at this point?

Why does Voyager have to have so much potential but refuse to do nothing with it?

All of this is stupid rambling. In my defense, I am watching early Voyager.
 
benjipwns said:
Roddenberry did ruin TNG to an extent with that whole "people in the 24-century will be past petty squabbles and shall always agree!" rule that prevented any serious disagreement within the crews. Who writes a show where the main characters can have no conflict and the only conflict must be with the "unenlightened foreign" people they come upon? Especially coming from a guy who oversaw a show where Bones was making racial (speciest?) cracks at Spock for most of its run, both of whom disagreed with Kirk and vice versa.

And then nobody else had the balls to go against this even though they had how many different people in the role we'd now call showrunner. I'm pretty sure DS9 throwing a bunch of aliens in to allow it early on made them overcompensate on the Maquis in Voyager since Berman hated DS9 so much for betraying Roddenberry.

Now I'm watching Voyager's "Basic Part II" on Spike and is this the worst cliffhanger/premiere in Trek? I don't think I had the internet at the time but did anyone seriously think there was no way they'd get off the planet? Does anyone on the crew even die except Suder? (Who is one of the more interesting characters, so of course they killed him.) The Kazon were basically useless, especially to the point in this very episode that Tom Paris and some random Talaxians bring them down because one person turned off the shields. Why were the Kazon over so much space in the first place, Voyagers like two years traveling at this point?

Why does Voyager have to have so much potential but refuse to do nothing with it?

All of this is stupid rambling. In my defense, I am watching early Voyager.


We really didn't see anyone outside the Federation group-think until Ensign Ro. And she was the one who was in the right the whole time while the Federation labeled the Maquis as terrorists.
 

WanderingWind

Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Voyager had so much potential for amazing storytelling. They squandered just about everything cool with the premise.
 

JoeMartin

Member
So I finished DS9.

Probably my favorite series. Easily did the best in making you care about all of the characters - and I mean all of them, even the minor recurring ones. Tons and tons of interesting character exposition that tied into the story without unnecessary over dramatization. I think I most enjoyed the fact that this was a series sincerely set in the Trek universe as a whole, rather than being Federation centric. The show consistently maintains neutrality between the character and their cultures and gives a good feeling of the political situation in the quadrant, and was consistently more interesting for me as a result.

Also what was up with the complete and total lack of the Borg. You'd think an invading super power led by a race of metamorphs would catch their interest.

Best developed character award goes to Dukat. His character's conclusion in the finale was a little disappointing, but on the whole a very believable arc for his character to have gone through psychologically and emotionally, and very well played by Alaimo.

Tony Todd, too, is a powerhouse of acting. Only one episode as Kurn in the whole series but Goddamn he does a good job. Same for the "The Visitor."

Least interesting/most obnoxious character award goes to Jake. Went from annoying pre-teen to douchey teenager.


I would write more but I'll sit on it for a while, I'm sure it's nothing that hasn't been said (probably better) already anywho. DS9 was really some fantastic stuff, though. A great story on the whole and some the best individual trek episodes ever as well.
 

DrForester

Kills Photobucket
JoeMartin said:
So I finished DS9.

Probably my favorite series. Easily did the best in making you care about all of the characters - and I mean all of them, even the minor recurring ones. Tons and tons of interesting character exposition that tied into the story without unnecessary over dramatization. I think I most enjoyed the fact that this was a series sincerely set in the Trek universe as a whole, rather than being Federation centric. The show consistently maintains neutrality between the character and their cultures and gives a good feeling of the political situation in the quadrant, and was consistently more interesting for me as a result.

Also that was amazing choice to have a total lack of the Borg. Having much better new villains to work with, an invading super power led by a race of metamorphs didn't even catch their interest.


Best developed character award goes to Dukat. His character's conclusion in the finale was a little disappointing, but on the whole a very believable arc for his character to have gone through psychologically and emotionally, and very well played by Alaimo.

Tony Todd, too, is a powerhouse of acting. Only one episode as Kurn in the whole series but Goddamn he does a good job. Same for the "The Visitor."

Least interesting/most obnoxious character award goes to Jake. Went from annoying pre-teen to douchey teenager.


I would write more but I'll sit on it for a while, I'm sure it's nothing that hasn't been said (probably better) already anywho. DS9 was really some fantastic stuff, though. A great story on the whole and some the best individual trek episodes ever as well.

Fixed
 

JoeMartin

Member
I'm not saying it was an inherently bad thing.

Just that they were very conspicuously absent from all dealings with the Dominion.
 

benjipwns

Banned
You could make a lousy explanation for it that Lore screwed up the Borg for a bit, then Species 8472 came along, and by then The Queen was too personally obsessed with Janeway and Seven of Nine to pay much attention to that massive interstellar war going on.
 
JoeMartin said:
So I finished DS9.

Probably my favorite series. Easily did the best in making you care about all of the characters - and I mean all of them, even the minor recurring ones. Tons and tons of interesting character exposition that tied into the story without unnecessary over dramatization. I think I most enjoyed the fact that this was a series sincerely set in the Trek universe as a whole, rather than being Federation centric. The show consistently maintains neutrality between the character and their cultures and gives a good feeling of the political situation in the quadrant, and was consistently more interesting for me as a result.

Also what was up with the complete and total lack of the Borg. You'd think an invading super power led by a race of metamorphs would catch their interest.

Best developed character award goes to Dukat. His character's conclusion in the finale was a little disappointing, but on the whole a very believable arc for his character to have gone through psychologically and emotionally, and very well played by Alaimo.

Tony Todd, too, is a powerhouse of acting. Only one episode as Kurn in the whole series but Goddamn he does a good job. Same for the "The Visitor."

Least interesting/most obnoxious character award goes to Jake. Went from annoying pre-teen to douchey teenager.


I would write more but I'll sit on it for a while, I'm sure it's nothing that hasn't been said (probably better) already anywho. DS9 was really some fantastic stuff, though. A great story on the whole and some the best individual trek episodes ever as well.


No Kai Winn love? At first I loathed her character. And then I began to see she really was quite complex. At first glance shes the religious fundamentalist zealot whos not above murder or terrorism in the name of her gods. But then you see why shes doing it, that she feels betrayed by the beings shes devoted her life to (in favor of choosing Sisko as their Emissary, an outsider). This jealousy just sets her off. For example, in The Reckoning we see Sisko willing to put his sons life at stake because he has so much faith in the Prophets. Kai Winn intervenes and interrupts the battle because she wasn't chosen to be the Prophet's vessel once more (even the Pah Wraiths chose Kira, another of her bitter enemies).

After all this shes at rock bottom, willing to follow anyone who promises her the Prophet's love...enter Dukat and his Pah Wraith buddies. She loathes him, but has lustful feelings for him. She gave everything to be the Prophet's Kaii and in the process she lost herself fully. And in the end it claims her life.

Pretty tragic character. Same with Dukat as he also follows a circuitous journey. Being the Prefect of Bajor, demoted to becoming a starship captain, demoted once more to freighter captain, renegade, shoots back to the top as head of the Cardassian Empire and finally pawn of the Pah Wraiths. Like Winn, he harbors a consuming jealousy/hatred for Sisko. He despises yet covets everything Sisko has achieved.

All the supporting cast were dynamic characters, ever changing. I wish I could say the same for VOY. TNG and TOS were made during different times when the culture in Hollywood wasn't favorable to long term arcs but rather self contained serials.

You could make a lousy explanation for it that Lore screwed up the Borg for a bit

Lore only fucked up a small segment of the Borg. The drones that Hugh "infected" were rescued by Lore after they'd malfunctioned and become disconnected from the Hive.
 
benjipwns said:
Why were the Kazon over so much space in the first place, Voyagers like two years traveling at this point?
Yeah, the idea of recurring villains when Voyager was headed in more or less a straight line always bugged me. Especially since the reason they seemed so interested in Voyager to begin with was its advanced technology, which would seem to make it harder for them to keep up.
JoeMartin said:
I'm not saying it was an inherently bad thing.

Just that they were very conspicuously absent from all dealings with the Dominion.
The Borg already have a presence spread across the galaxy--I doubt the Dominion is news to them.
 
A rather long article about the influence of minimalism in creating TOS iconic look:

Minimalist Magic: The Star Trek Look

There is an obvious difference between Star Trek, the original show, and the successor series and movies. And that is that they look so different. In terms of the look, there is a definite dividing line between the origin and what came after. The first series looks primitive, even quaint — not much more than "a lot of orange paint [and] plastic plants" (Fern 8) — by comparison with the successor series, with their sophisticated special effects and updated styling. The computers in the original series appear to be plywood painted grey (Figure 1).1 The revolution in special effects came after the first series, and affected both the movies and the TV series that succeeded it.

But the difference in style is much more than just special effects and, by the 1980s, changes in fashion and production values. The '60s, the period of Star Trek, were long gone in a cultural sense, as well as in terms of visual fashions and production values. The original series has a definite look, a style. This look is not the mere consequence of what are today obsolete production techniques. By treating the style of the original series as integral to the show — and not as a kind of regrettable defect — we can get a better grasp on the Star Trek phenomenon itself. Typically, people talk about themes and characters, while the visual style is regarded with a patronizing sense of its quaintness. In fact, however, the look of Star Trek is deeply interesting in its own right.
There is a word for the Star Trek style, and that is "Minimalism" — which I mean as a technical term, the designation of a certain style. Minimalism brings with it a complex of values that are also notable in the original Star Trek. There is no doubt that budget constraints shaped the style, but ultimately the Minimalist look has nothing to do with budgeting. The look of Star Trek is Minimalist through and through, even including the somewhat elaborate bridge set (with the "con"), where Captain Kirk issues commands and supervises the starship. Successor shows and movies, by contrast, could hardly be less Minimalist in their art direction, style, and lighting. Advances in special effects after 2001: A Space Odyssey and the Star Wars movies were considerable by the time of The Next Generation,2 though not yet at the stage where "lighting a scene becomes a matter of painting pixels," as Stephen Prince puts it ("True Lies" 32). Science fiction on television had to look good, had to be as perfect in terms of surface appearances as possible. By contrast, the predecessor series, Star Trek, was establishing conventions, not trying to catch up with them: important conventions of the genre start there. There was no "anxiety of influence" to overcome, and therefore a definite lack of inhibition, a kind of energy that cannot be duplicated under more regular circumstances. Improvisation is part of the original show, and with it the failings and advantages that improvisation yields. Many of the effects and settings were in fact improvised — improvised in the literal sense of that word, made up quickly under pressure with few resources. There is something about such circumstances that can stimulate creative work, as so many inexpensive but brilliant movies in film history also testify. In the case of Star Trek, later series are more polished but less energized.
 

Zenith

Banned
Some new ship designs for the SOTL calendar from the staff that made all of the ships for the shows.

new Romulan battleship

zu4mbl.jpg


fictional Season 5 refit of NX-01

2ef5orb.jpg

15pgwo6.jpg
 

Walshicus

Member
Apparantly Shran was going to join the crew as a bridge officer in Series 5 of Enterprise. Wish it didn't get cancelled...
 

KamenSenshi

Junior Member
Yeah, Enterprise had potential. If only it started off closer to how it ended in terms of writting/episode quality maybe it would be after TNG in popularity.
 

Zenith

Banned
I'm watching Season 4 of Enterprise for the first time and boy does it suck. Same old stuff. Shoehorning of references and stories from past series that end up retroactively making those old plot elements worse. Being condemned to do stuff on a smaller, less impressive scale than what the previous series did. They constantly get their asses kicked. Non-stop. It's like watching the smallest kid on the playground get sand kicked in their face over and over. Vulcans are nothing but passive-aggressive traditionalist blowhards who are more emotional actors than the humans.

This Soong arc is especially bad. "Oh look, the psychotic killing machines have gone psychotic and started killing people!" Complete with emo tight black t-shirts with razor cuts in them. The BOP has a resequencer - make some new damn clothes already.
 

Jacobi

Banned
benjipwns said:
The show should have been more like Year of Hell than what it was.
I haven't watched that two-parter in years, but I'm pretty sure that was the best Voyager had to offer and it was actually good TV.
 

Sapiens

Member
Jacobi said:
I haven't watched that two-parter in years, but I'm pretty sure that was the best Voyager had to offer and it was actually good TV.


butthenitallgotresetandtheshipwasinperfectorderlikenothinghappened.

Fuck, I hated this show.
 

WillyFive

Member
Jacobi said:
I haven't watched that two-parter in years, but I'm pretty sure that was the best Voyager had to offer and it was actually good TV.

I remember that. Pretty neat.

I don't think it was the best to offer, though. Voyager was awesome.
 

DrForester

Kills Photobucket
benjipwns said:
The show should have been more like Year of Hell than what it was.


After the episode 2 seasons before where they set up for Year of Hell, I was hoping for a full season about it.
 

Cheerilee

Member
Willy105 said:
The ending of Amok Time was sweet.
Maybe watch Season 1, Episode 28, "The City on the Edge of Forever" next. It's got time travel and shows a different side of Kirk and Spock.

If you want classic Trek space battle, I suggest 1-14 "Balance of Terror" or maybe episode 2-6 "The Doomsday Machine".

I'm sure there's no shortage of good episodes people can suggest if you're interested.
 

Magnus

Member
Nemesis is airing on Space right now in Toronto.

What a fucking terrible film. I remember being so angry walking out of the theatre for this one. And I loved Generations and Insurrection for the record (with First Contact in first place, obviously).

Shinzon is such a disaster. But man, what a turnaround for the actor in Inception. :lol

edit-

What the fuck. Data dies? I must have repressed this.
 

Freshmaker

I am Korean.
Teh Hamburglar said:
We really didn't see anyone outside the Federation group-think until Ensign Ro. And she was the one who was in the right the whole time while the Federation labeled the Maquis as terrorists.
The Maquis were idiots.

"Wah. We want *this* planet!"

"Ok, but you gotta live by the rules of the government you now find yourself under. "

"Wah! The Federation was better! So we'll bomb the Federation!"

Always hated the whole Maquis storyline. Was so happy when the Dominion noticed them and solved all their problems.
 

benjipwns

Banned
It was probably the Cardassians bitching about them and the female Founder was tired of hearing Dukat whine about it.
 
Magnus said:
Nemesis is airing on Space right now in Toronto.

What a fucking terrible film. I remember being so angry walking out of the theatre for this one. And I loved Generations and Insurrection for the record (with First Contact in first place, obviously).

Shinzon is such a disaster. But man, what a turnaround for the actor in Inception. :lol

edit-

What the fuck. Data dies? I must have repressed this.
No better, No worse than Abrahms trek really.
 

Walshicus

Member
Magnus said:
Nemesis is airing on Space right now in Toronto.

What a fucking terrible film. I remember being so angry walking out of the theatre for this one. And I loved Generations and Insurrection for the record (with First Contact in first place, obviously).

Shinzon is such a disaster. But man, what a turnaround for the actor in Inception. :lol

edit-

What the fuck. Data dies? I must have repressed this.
Last time I watched that film I was drunk on a beach in Cuba, and it was airing in French.
 
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