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[Trent Strong]

"Pro-religion" isn't right wing. If you really think it is, tell my wiccan friends so and they will very gently pat you on the head, stifling a giggle.




I missed the episode where the Federation won the war because they had superior firepower. I had the impression that they were getting their butt kicked for most of the story and had to rely on help from other nations to survive. Heck, even situations where they *did* have might were treated very bittersweetly, such as when the Maquis was dissolved.




They were usually portrayed by the show as villains or as characters who went past the line of acceptable conduct to achieve their aims. Having a character who is right wing and then saying "this character is a bad person!" does not make the show right wing.




Possibly. I would have to go back and watch. I remember being fine with most of it, but certain aspects were jarring.



I agree with some of what you're saying about the war. Too many space fights -- the show tried to be actionish like Star Wars, and that's not what Trek is about*. I actually liked a lot of the first couple seasons, when the show was a little less arc-oriented.



* okay, they blew up shit all the time in TOS, but even though they hit the audience over the head with it, there was generally an overall moral of the story being told

To be fair, Wiccan's make up a tiny, tiny fraction of the religious population. I think it is fair to equate being religious with being right-wing most of the time. (Also, Wiccans shouldn't be condescendingly patting people on their heads and stiffling giggles when they have some of the most ludicrious beliefs imaginable. People who understand the sciences should be stifling giggles and patting Wiccans on the head.)

 

[DeadTrees]

So disappointed, and from what I've read here it gets worse?

Ha ha, you haven't even gotten to the part when they start possessing major characters and zap each other with Jesus power. Or when they single-handedly save the entire Federation from being massacred. Or when Dukat...awwww, you don't even want to know.

People can say I don't know what I'm talking about but DS9 is, to me, the shot that killed star trek

Nah, it was Voyager and the TNG movies--they beat the TNG formula into the ground until nobody cared.

 

[DrForester]

I kind of wished they revealed the Breen in the series. The explanation for them in the books was kind of cool.

I kind of wish the Breen had been nothing but a background race. If there's one thing about the end of DS9 it's the shoehorning in of the Breen at the last minute, a race we know nothing about and have no investment in seeing.

 

[GameplayWhore]

Or when Dukat...awwww, you don't even want to know.

D: I had pushed all the Dukat character assassination out of my mind. Why would you remind me! D:

To be fair, Wiccan's make up a tiny, tiny fraction of the religious population. I think it is fair to equate being religious with being right-wing most of the time. (Also, Wiccans shouldn't be condescendingly patting people on their heads and stiffling giggles when they have some of the most ludicrious beliefs imaginable. People who understand the sciences should be stifling giggles and patting Wiccans on the head.)

I know few left wingers who are intolerant towards religion. Much of the show's treatment of this aspect of the human condition was about tolerance towards a religion which had a scientific (well, within the realm of rather fantastical science fiction) explanation. I don't understand how that can be considered a right wing philosophy.

 

[Slayven]

I would have liked seeing more about the Hurk. Heck, a large part of the reason why I didn't drop Voyager really early on (in the same manner that I dumped Terra Nova, which -- oh look! -- is produced and occasionally written by the same guy) is because they seemed to me like the Klingons just after they overthrew the Hurk, and I wanted to see them explore this aspect of the race (and less of the "RARRRG, WE'RE UNTRUSTWORTHY AND VIOLENT AND DON'T KNOW HOW TO MAKE WATER!" stuff).

You mean the Kazon?

I kind of wish the Breen had been nothing but a background race. If there's one thing about the end of DS9 it's the shoehorning in of the Breen at the last minute, a race we know nothing about and have no investment in seeing.

It was nice to see another powerful race in the Federation's neighborhood. I kind of dislike the notion there are only 3 big dogs running around.

 

[GameplayWhore]

You mean the Kazon?

Yeah. As I recall, they had recently overcome being enslaved by another alien race (just like the Bajorans had, but in a different manner, and just like the Klingons had, a very long time ago).

 

[Escape Goat]

Dude, why do you think they added the Defiant in season 3 (besides because of awful ratings)? because the never went fucking anywhere in the first two seasons and they still couldn't rope in enough viewers which is why they added Worf in season four (and butchered his character).

Okay, Might makes right may not be the right choice of words but the focus on the Dominion war for the rest of the shows run was definitely off putting.

DS9 ratings weren't as high as TNGs but they were consistent and healthy. The reason they introduced the Defiant is that they built up the Dominion as a new threat way back in Season 2 and you can't produce tension with 3 runabouts.

DS9 was well received by critics with TV Guide describing it as "the best acted, written, produced and altogether finest" Star Trek series.[17] Despite debuting in the shadow of The Next Generation, DS9 achieved a considerable level of success in its own right. According to a press release through Newswire on April 7, 1999, it was the #1 syndicated show in the United States for adults 18–49 and 25–54. The characters of DS9 were featured on the cover of TV Guide ten times during its run, including several "special issue" editions in which a set of four different-covered versions were printed.

The series won a number of awards.[18] It was nominated for Emmy Awards every year of its run, including makeup, cinematography, art direction, special effects, hairstyling, music (direction and composition), and costumes. Of these, it won two for Makeup (for "Captive Pursuit" and "Distant Voices") and one for the Main Title Theme Music (Dennis McCarthy). It was also nominated for two Hugo Awards in Best Dramatic Presentation for "The Visitor" and "Trials and Tribble-ations", however the competing series Babylon 5 won the Hugo Award instead.[20]

 

[Slayven]

Yeah. As I recall, they had recently overcome being enslaved by another alien race (just like the Bajorans had, but in a different manner, and just like the Klingons had, a very long time ago).

I hated them because of the freaky coral on their heads.

 

[DrForester]

It was nice to see another powerful race in the Federation's neighborhood. I kind of dislike the notion there are only 3 big dogs running around.

And if there had been even a fraction of establishment of the Breen that the Klingons or Romulans had I'd be fine with them. I almost got the feeling that they intended the Romulans to join the Dominion but someone up top said "Nope" and they had to scramble at the last minute to come up with something, and someone drunkenly said "What about the Star Wars Bounty hunter we had in the background of a few episodes?"

 

[SpoonyBard]

Certainly not American-style right wing. Much of the show was about how terrorists sometimes have a valid point of view.

DS9 was before 9/11. That kind of stuff wouldn't fly today.

 

[akira28]

It sure would. People need to be grabbed by the collar and ripped out of the post 9/11 mentality. Iraq is over. We need a new smarter Trek, like we had before.

Also they kicked Terrorist butt, constantly. The Maquis always got their just desserts. Plus Maj Kira is a former 'freedom fighter'.

 

[jaxword]

It sure would. People need to be grabbed by the collar and ripped out of the post 9/11 mentality. Iraq is over. We need a new smarter Trek, like we had before.

Is science fiction corrupting America's values with socialist ideas, no gods and promoting peace? A Fox news Expose: Star Trek or Star WRECK?

 

[akira28]

You're probably joking but some Conservatives have actually had issues with Star Trek's godless progressiveness in the past.

 

[Walshicus]

They were usually portrayed by the show as villains or as characters who went past the line of acceptable conduct to achieve their aims. Having a character who is right wing and then saying "this character is a bad person!" does not make the show right wing.

Exactly. Plus the entire war is basically ended peacefully by the crew risking everything to compromise Section 31's plot. The moral of that arc was that compassion and mercy can go further than guns.

 

[Cheerilee]

9/11 stuff is old news. Battlestar Galactica beat Trek to it.

 

[Sephiroth503]

I used to rank my Star Trek in the order TNG>TOS>DS9>VOY>ENT. That was based on my impressions of Star Trek when I was growing up, in DS9's case the continual story arc, political and religious themes just went over my head somewhat. I think I was too young to understand what was going on political most of time and didn't grasp character motivations.

I wasn't able to watch DS9 week in week out so when I missed a few episodes I felt like I'd lost track of everything, whereas TNG and TOS were more forgiving in that instance.

However I've started to build up my Trek collection over the last few years and moved onto DS9 this Summer and it has now replaced TNG at the top of my list. I think it's absolutely fantastic and I can really appreciate what they were trying to do with DS9 and have just finished Season 4. I think being able to watch it as an adult has given me a new perspective on the themes at play.

I also understand why people would not like DS9, but I feel DS9 is far less offensive to what Star Trek is than VOY which I didn't enjoy too much at the time (with the exception of some episodes) and still don't enjoy now.

 

[Tobor]

The Breen was the laziest design I've ever seen in Trek. Why Lucas didn't sue is beyond me.

 

[jaxword]

The Breen was the laziest design I've ever seen in Trek. Why Lucas didn't sue is beyond me.

Probably because it was different enough to arguably be a homage/joke?

 

[poisonelf]

Ha ha, you haven't even gotten to the part when they start possessing major characters and zap each other with Jesus power. Or when they single-handedly save the entire Federation from being massacred. Or when Dukat...awwww, you don't even want to know.

I don't think you're kidding and this frightens me. WHYYyyy.... That episode, Rapture, seemed to stress the point that those with faith are somehow more 'illuminated', that faith and visions are the way to go. I hoped I misread too much to it, but apparently...

I used to rank my Star Trek in the order TNG>TOS>DS9>VOY>ENT. That was based on my impressions of Star Trek when I was growing up, in DS9's case the continual story arc, political and religious themes just went over my head somewhat. I think I was too young to understand what was going on political most of time and didn't grasp character motivations.

I wasn't able to watch DS9 week in week out so when I missed a few episodes I felt like I'd lost track of everything, whereas TNG and TOS were more forgiving in that instance.

However I've started to build up my Trek collection over the last few years and moved onto DS9 this Summer and it has now replaced TNG at the top of my list. I think it's absolutely fantastic and I can really appreciate what they were trying to do with DS9 and have just finished Season 4. I think being able to watch it as an adult has given me a new perspective on the themes at play.

I also understand why people would not like DS9, but I feel DS9 is far less offensive to what Star Trek is than VOY which I didn't enjoy too much at the time (with the exception of some episodes) and still don't enjoy now.

I'm exactly where you are. I started to appreciate DS9 immensely up to the start of season 5. There is a continuity to the episodes that is unheard of for Star Trek. The acting is very good in some cases, and characters evolve, at least for Star Trek standards. Opposing views of terrorists/freedom fighters as has been mentioned, nice plotting and backstabbing. It's that episode that kind of fucked it up, and I could let it go of course, but it seems it's only the beginning of a religion rules fest.

I would rate Enterprise higher than Voyager however, much, much higher.

 

[benjipwns]

I don't think you're kidding and this frightens me. WHYYyyy.... That episode, Rapture, seemed to stress the point that those with faith are somehow more 'illuminated', that faith and visions are the way to go. I hoped I misread too much to it, but apparently...

I think you're taking this way too seriously. Especially if you're "frightened" that the show is going to start preaching religion to you. It's not.

The Prophets are aliens. They just don't exist in linear time. Season seven explains their entire ties to Sisko and the reason they're dicking around in our realm in the first place.

I couldn't imagine bailing out of the series before The War.

 

[Sickboy007]

The "gods" didn't bother me much, the nympho bajoran pope did. Poor Dukat.

 

[poisonelf]

I think you're taking this way too seriously. Especially if you're "frightened" that the show is going to start preaching religion to you. It's not.

The Prophets are aliens. They just don't exist in linear time. Season seven explains their entire ties to Sisko and the reason they're dicking around in our realm in the first place.

I couldn't imagine bailing out of the series before The War.

Good to know, thanks. No of course I'm not going to stop watching since I love almost every other aspect of it, unless the preaching intensifies and becomes the standard approach to spirituality and stuff.

Thing is Star Trek is my go to place to feel comforted and at ease. Nostalgia and proud geekiness is only part of it, it's the whole presentation of a world were humanity seems to actually be worth the air they breathe. Compassion, the luxury to choose a career based on preference and not need, no exploitation of the less powerful, logic, science, exploration based on those values... and so on.
------

On a totally unrelated note, what the fuck is this with everyone beating Klingons up???

I'm not only talking Worf in TNG getting his ass handed to him all the time just for the writers to portray how powerful an enemy is.
But in both TNG and DS9 each and every main character seems to have beaten up a Klingon. It's simply not possible, it's physics. Klingons are always played by large to huge men, and as a race they are supposed to have spent and devoted their entire life to fighting. It would be the equivalent of going against a heavyweight MMA champion. Now add to that the fact that they're physically evolved to be tough and to excel in combat. Greater strength, double organs to act as fail-safes, skulls that hardly feel pain by human standards. So to be more precise it would be like going against a huge male chimpanzee with human intelligence and everyday MMA training. It. Is. Not. Fucking. Possible.

Especially for a miniature woman like major Kira, who may be tough as hell, could beat up quit a few 'normal' men, but no, could not fight off a gorilla. Or for an old man like captain Picard, whose character I worship on many levels, but hand to hand combat with a Klingon? Come on...
I can maybe see captain Sisko holding his own against one, being large enough and having said he was captain of the wrestling team, but on a more general level it should be "fuck, it's down to hand to hand fighting, it's over, resistance is not possible".

 

[jaxword]

The "gods" didn't bother me much, the nympho bajoran pope did.

That was the most accurate part of the religious depiction, when you think about it.

 

[BFIB]

I just started season 2 of TNG.

Where is Dr. Crusher!? I know I've seen episodes from later TNG's that had her in it.

Also, I did not realize

Spoiler

Tasha Yar was killed off so quickly.

 

[jaxword]

I just started season 2 of TNG.

Where is Dr. Crusher!? I know I've seen episodes from later TNG's that had her in it.

Off working at Starfleet medical/Actress was busy.

 

[Slayven]

DS9 to me is about the characters, the arcs were good. But the characters made them awesome, and their growth was the best in any scifi show.

 

[Davey Cakes]

Also, I did not realize

Spoiler

Tasha Yar was killed off so quickly.

Good riddance on that. Allowed the writers to focus more on Worf and make him significant as a crew member and character. Before, they were spreading it too thin.

 

[benjipwns]

unless the preaching intensifies and becomes the standard approach to spirituality and stuff.

It doesn't, it's not really until you look back at the series probably that the Sisko arc makes full sense. Remember he comes to DS9 out of despair of life itself and with little purpose. Becoming the Emissary, exploring the Prophets and protecting Bajor gives him a purpose. And he explains a lot of this through standard cultural context, i.e. they are "gods." He knows they aren't, he knows the Bajorans are wrong, but then the Prophets are taking him into their realm, showing him all this stuff he can't understand, etc. and how else can he explain it? He falls back into belief.

I don't want to spoil the Sisko-Prophet plot, but they work with it a lot more than it just being a religious revival. It comes off as that because remember who they're writing to and within what contexts to explain it. But I think they do a fair job showing what Sisko is experiencing personally along with the otherwise reality.

IIRC, the show got backlash because they were showing a non-Christian religion as something a human could accept due to his experiences.

"Comfort and ease" isn't really what comes to mind with DS9. It's far more about conflict, personally and politically, than all the other Treks combined.

Which is why many of us love it so.

 

[Walshicus]

Off working at Starfleet medical/Actress was busy.

Busy avoiding being sexually harassed by Maurice Hurley?

 

[Walshicus]

Me: Shall we go into town together or split up and get the shopping done quicker?
Girlfriend: Up to you.
Me: It's raining so let's split up.
[five minutes later]
Girlfriend: Doctor Bashir just held the door open for me in (local boutique gift shop)!

Gah!!

Didn't think we'd beat bumping into Hyacinth Bucket in Chichester Cathedral gardens, this year.

 

[Wanace]

Last night on BBC America they played the episode of TNG where Picard is kidnapped by the Borg.

Got me wondering, who was the "voice" of the Borg in those days of the collective?

 

[Tobor]

My problem with religion in DS9 is my problem with religion in any sci-fi where it still holds cultural power over humanity. I'm with Asimov in the hope that humanity will shed religion in the future, and evolve as a society. Religion in the future could be used as a tool to control or teach more primitive societies(As in Foundation), but it should be recognized as what it truly is by those implementing that tool.

In TNG, they wouldn't dare use religion as a tool due to the Prime Directive, so it's seen as a historical novelty cast off long ago. That's an excellent future.

In DS9, however, we have an intelligent, respected character in Sisko, who in my opinion, intellectually regresses due to his involvement with the Prophets. The ending of the show in particular really bummed me out.

 

[An-Det]

But it doesn't. Religion on DS9 was mostly with the Bajorans, with only a few others like Sisko taking an active interest. There are occasional references to humans and religion, but it had mostly died out by that era for us. Plus I imagine the prophets being living aliens that are proven to be real and interact with Bajor probably helps keep their religion going.

 

[King of the Potato People]

I always thought Sisko's last scene was creepy, he sounded like a robot.

But I loved the religious aspects, specially when Dukat knocks up a married woman, and says it's the Pah-wraith that caused the baby to be a Cardassian, cheeky.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

Last night on BBC America they played the episode of TNG where Picard is kidnapped by the Borg.

Got me wondering, who was the "voice" of the Borg in those days of the collective?

Checked Memory Alpha for the episode. In the cast section

Unknown performers as

Female operations division ensign
Operations division officer
Seven Borg drones
Voice of the Borg

It's a mystery to everyone.

 

[DrForester]

Last night on BBC America they played the episode of TNG where Picard is kidnapped by the Borg.

Got me wondering, who was the "voice" of the Borg in those days of the collective?

Want a shocker. Look up who did the Romulan Voices in the 2009 film.

 

[Slayven]

Busy avoiding being sexually harassed by Maurice Hurley?

Just read she got fired. Wow

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

Busy avoiding being sexually harassed by Maurice Hurley?

Just reading up a bit on Maurice and was amused by this paragraph:

Tracy Tormé – who also clashed with Hurley many times, and left Star Trek because of that – later created a character in his series Sliders named "Michael Hurley", who was characteristically a jerk and referred to by characters as "a putz on every (parallel) world." Torme has claimed the character is based on Maurice Hurley.

 

[Trent Strong]

Welp, I watched all of Voyager over the past few months, and there were only three episodes that stood out to me, or that I remember well/thought were good: B'Elanna wants to un-klingon her baby, Neelix dies and finds out there's no afterlife, and the Tuvix episode. The other 172 or so were pretty much unremarkable or bad.

 

[Mama Robotnik]

Welp, I watched all of Voyager over the past few months, and there were only three episodes that stood out to me, or that I remember well/thought were good: B'Elanna wants to un-klingon her baby, Neelix dies and finds out there's no afterlife, and the Tuvix episode. The other 172 or so were pretty much unremarkable or bad.

I despise Voyager and have made several long posts going into why I think the show was a boring, wasted opportunity with no ambition or imagination behind it. The characters were mostly cardboard cut-outs, character development was comical, technobabble beccame the be-all end-all story solver, no focus was placed on their isolated dilemma and the scripts/music/everything was some of the blandest, dullest, shittest television I've ever had the misfortune to tolerate.

However, credit where its due. I will always support the following episodes:

-Deathwish (The "Q" who wants to die)
-Tinker Tailor Doctor Spy (The Doctor's Daydreams - genuinely hilarious)
-Living Witness (Set a thousand years or so in the future, by far the smartest episode they've ever done. Picardo absolutely nails this episode).
-Scorpion Part 1 (a very well done action romp)
-Drone (The future Borg Drone - Damnit I liked it, really hits the humanity side of Trek).

They are small flowers on a mountain of congealed tribble excrement mind. To go from the ambitious DS9 to producing pap like Voyager, is a dip in quality so deep it could give people pressure sickness.

 

[Trent Strong]

I despise Voyager and have made several long posts going into why I think the show was a boring, wasted opportunity with no ambition or imagination behind it. The characters were mostly cardboard cut-outs, character development was comical, technobabble beccame the be-all end-all story solver, no focus was placed on their isolated dilemma and the scripts/music/everything was some of the blandest, dullest, shittest television I've ever had the misfortune to tolerate.


They are small flowers on a mountain of congealed tribble excrement mind. To go from the ambitious DS9 to producing pap like Voyager, is a dip in quality so deep it could give people pressure sickness.

Ouch!

 

[The Librarian]

I despise Voyager and have made several long posts going into why I think the show was a boring, wasted opportunity with no ambition or imagination behind it. The characters were mostly cardboard cut-outs, character development was comical, technobabble beccame the be-all end-all story solver, no focus was placed on their isolated dilemma and the scripts/music/everything was some of the blandest, dullest, shittest television I've ever had the misfortune to tolerate.

However, credit where its due. I will always support the following episodes:

-Deathwish (The "Q" who wants to die)
-Tinker Tailor Doctor Spy (The Doctor's Daydreams - genuinely hilarious)
-Living Witness (Set a thousand years or so in the future, by far the smartest episode they've ever done. Picardo absolutely nails this episode).
-Scorpion Part 1 (a very well done action romp)
-Drone (The future Borg Drone - Damnit I liked it, really hits the humanity side of Trek).

They are small flowers on a mountain of congealed tribble excrement mind. To go from the ambitious DS9 to producing pap like Voyager, is a dip in quality so deep it could give people pressure sickness.

What about the episodes where the Doctor has to choose between Harry Kim and that other officer? I've forgotten the name.

 

[DrForester]

I despise Voyager and have made several long posts going into why I think the show was a boring, wasted opportunity with no ambition or imagination behind it. The characters were mostly cardboard cut-outs, character development was comical, technobabble beccame the be-all end-all story solver, no focus was placed on their isolated dilemma and the scripts/music/everything was some of the blandest, dullest, shittest television I've ever had the misfortune to tolerate.

However, credit where its due. I will always support the following episodes:

-Deathwish (The "Q" who wants to die)
-Tinker Tailor Doctor Spy (The Doctor's Daydreams - genuinely hilarious)
-Living Witness (Set a thousand years or so in the future, by far the smartest episode they've ever done. Picardo absolutely nails this episode).
-Scorpion Part 1 (a very well done action romp)
-Drone (The future Borg Drone - Damnit I liked it, really hits the humanity side of Trek).

They are small flowers on a mountain of congealed tribble excrement mind. To go from the ambitious DS9 to producing pap like Voyager, is a dip in quality so deep it could give people pressure sickness.

No "Timeless"?

 

[The Librarian]

SFDebris has his review up of ST2009.

Here's the intro.

It'll be fun to compare and contrast it to RedLetterMedia's review.

 

[DrForester]

SFDebris has his review up of ST2009.

Here's the intro.

It'll be fun to compare and contrast it to RedLetterMedia's review.

"George Kirk takes a note from the Diana Troi Piloting Handbook"

"If they were any more inside a computer, Spock would have to change his catchphrase to "I fight for the users"

Some good lines in this.

 

[Escape Goat]

Best of Rifftrax Star Trek
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I40HLdkPHCk&feature=related

"She Hulk is pleased!"

 

[benjipwns]

Voyager category on Teen Jeopardy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogBcZfPQvgw

Guy runs the table in DS9 category: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYZtaSbnnqU

Stewart and Spiner making fun of Dorn: http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=dAK6Pfm_-Ok

 

[Tobor]

Guy runs the table in DS9 category: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYZtaSbnnqU

I love how "Fashion" is the only other category they hadn't touched. Lol.

 

[Cheerilee]

Guy runs the table in DS9 category: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYZtaSbnnqU

I think he got that last question wrong. The symbiont doesn't inhabit the body of Dax, the symbiont is Dax. The symbiont inhabits the body of Jadzia.

 

[benjipwns]

Spiner and Stewart are great making fun of each other:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQcammV9G1Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvJ7xR4D1ZI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8ZLwjDQ0Fw

Frakes and Sirtis is another hilarious pair.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8LhXH9Xsj8

:lol at when Sirtis says she's never seen Voyager and Enterprise. And when she talks about selling her Trek stuff.

Everybodys probably already seen this with those two but just incase: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JI8ezrK6Qjs