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[The Librarian]

We've been down this road before, you and I, so I'm not even going to try to argue the greater point with you. B5 has its shortcomings, but if B5's arcs have shortcomings then DS9's have black holes you could fly a romulan mining ship through.

We have? I honestly don't remember.
As for everything else:

On this specific point: a) It's Vir. b) Londo is a deeply conflicted character throughout the show. What you point out as a weakness is B5's strength. Londo's evolution as a character feels real precisely because he isn't so easy to pin down. c) Londo, in public, is always jovial -- even about horrible things. It's a mask he puts on. "No one here is exactly what he appears." c) This isn't anything to do with a plot arc. This is character development.

I don't really recall him being that gleeful, to be honest, and I'd bet I've watched this much more recently than you.

I hadn't considered the "No one here is exactly what he appears." It's possible that I'm misremembering the scenes, in which case I'll concede to your points. However, from what I remember I do think he expressed those sentiments in private, and not with a "glee but a hint of loathing" kind of way.

It was a point I was trying to make while forgetting the topic of the post at hand; you're right with "c." It's related to the story arcs. But as I said in my subsequent post, I'm not even sure if the arcs – character and story – in B5 and DS9 are comparable.

Edit: I wasn't too clear on this in my original post, so it's my fault, but there was one other point I was trying to get at. I thought that Rash, in his attempts to get Stump hyped for B5, said that to give praise to both shows, and in that way, I think it's fair.

 

[CorrisD]

So can you get Star Trek ship model/toy things anywhere these days?

Not to beat around the bush, I'm terrible at model making, my painting skills are on par with a toddlers never really got into it, but I would love an Intrepid or Sovereign model for my shelf, anyone know if you can get something along those lines anywhere?

 

[lastplayed]

The Bandai Enterprise E is pretty cool if you want a quick slap-together job, although it does have a few ugly gaps here and there.

The Diamond Select Enterprise D is my favourite Trek toy/model ever though, it has a nice weight to it (it's missing the neck windows though, that sucks).

 

[The Librarian]

I wish they had more Star Trek ship toys. I know they had models for the Enterprise-E and Voyager, and I got and built both, but they never made a Defiant one.

 

[firehawk12]

Did they ever make an Enterprise-J model? lol

 

[CorrisD]

The Bandai Enterprise E is pretty cool if you want a quick slap-together job, although it does have a few ugly gaps here and there.

The Diamond Select Enterprise D is my favourite Trek toy/model ever though, it has a nice weight to it (it's missing the neck windows though, that sucks).

Damn, I had a quick look and these things can be expensive, but so very cool, lol.

I wish they had more Star Trek ship toys. I know they had models for the Enterprise-E and Voyager, and I got and built both, but they never made a Defiant one.

Yea, it is a shame they never had a bunch of Star Trek toys like Star Wars got from Micro Machines, those action fleet ones while not big and children's toys look nice sitting together on a shelf.
I still have all mine in my parents attic, I might go find them when I next visit.

 

[maharg]

Damn, I had a quick look and these things can be expensive, but so very cool, lol.



Yea, it is a shame they never had a bunch of Star Trek toys like Star Wars got from Micro Machines, those action fleet ones while not big and children's toys look nice sitting together on a shelf.
I still have all mine in my parents attic, I might go find them when I next visit.

Jesus, was the TIE Defender ever even in anything other than TIE Fighter? And they made a toy of it?

 

[BattleMonkey]

Diamond Select was supposed to release an Enterprise B years ago, they showed it off at various cons but it's never been produced Diamond Select ships have been great for the most part

I think the tepid response to the DVD movie was the final nail in the coffin.

You mean the Lost Tales? It sold extremely well. Problem was that WB only gave JMS 1 million dollars to make Lost Tales, hence so much of it used digital backgrounds and since most of the original props/sets were long destroyed or sold off by WB. Lost Tales sold great and WB was willing to do more, but they said they would only give another 1 million for the next volume also. JMS basically got fed up with constantly being screwed over by WB and even though it sold so well, they wouldn't increase the Lost Tales series budget. The first was made on the cheap as a kind of test and after being a big success he expected to get a bit of an increase. Afterwards JMS had said that he was pretty much done with B5 unless WB is willing to put some real money behind it for once instead of constantly being cheap on the franchise. Hes been real sour on his relationship with WB since B5 has apparently made a boat load of money for them once it hit DVD, and apparently has made more just on DVD sales than the franchise ever made in it's entire run. JMS also pretty much was getting much higher profile work in Hollywood at the time and doing well with his comic book career.

Jesus, was the TIE Defender ever even in anything other than TIE Fighter? And they made a toy of it?

It appeared in many of the books, plus many other games, Rebellion, Galactic Battlegrounds, Alliance, Empire at War, Galaxies, and others. Tie Defender also even got a Lego model release!

 

[firehawk12]

Did The Lost Tales really do that well? I mean, MGM tried the DVD movie thing with several properties and they ended up quietly dropping that idea after a few goes.

Still, I do remember him saying that he was only interested in doing a movie specifically because he has full control of movie rights and can basically do anything he wants on that front. But, a big budget B5 movie makes absolutely no sense now... It probably never made sense even during the whole "Memory of Shadows" thing a while ago.

 

[BattleMonkey]

Did The Lost Tales really do that well? I mean, MGM tried the DVD movie thing with several properties and they ended up quietly dropping that idea after a few goes.

Still, I do remember him saying that he was only interested in doing a movie specifically because he has full control of movie rights and can basically do anything he wants on that front. But, a big budget B5 movie makes absolutely no sense now... It probably never made sense even during the whole "Memory of Shadows" thing a while ago.

JMS has just said it sold well and that WB had wanted more, but they wouldn't increase the budget which angered him as he was not happy with the quality of the first volume. He intended to make a series of Lost Tales and eventually go into the Telepath War, but the budget WB was putting forth was not enough to do what he wanted. He didn't expect to make a big budget film or anything, he just wanted some extra money. Hes always had to deal with shoestring budgets for Babylon 5 franchise and was not happy with the quality of the later movies due to it. MGM budgets were much higher also for the Stargate films, with them being over 7mil each.

I doubt we will ever see a big budget movie unless WB in the future would attempt some kind of big film adaption which would probably be a series reboot or new version.... doubt it would be the same.

He talked a while about doing B5 comics as he dabbled a bit with that for DC comics but in limited run series. With him being a comic book guy mainly now, it would have been interesting to see him continue by going that route since it's what they did with Buffy and recently with the creator of Farscape continuing his series through comics.

 

[lastplayed]

Damn, I had a quick look and these things can be expensive, but so very cool, lol.

I suppose they are now that they're becoming quite hard to find. I got the E-E cheap from ebay.co.uk, but that was in 2007.

 

[maharg]

It appeared in many of the books, plus many other games, Rebellion, Galactic Battlegrounds, Alliance, Empire at War, Galaxies, and others. Tie Defender also even got a Lego model release!

I don't really remember it being in the books at all, but I guess I basically stopped reading them after a point. Except for a brief return to see what was up with NJO, which was entertaining but kind of premised on the worst aspects of the EU.

Personally, I think it's fine that B5 is over and done with btw. There's a part of me that's disappointed, but a bigger part of me recognizes how shitty almost all the attempts to extend it have been. I'd rather have seen Jeremiah get a full JMS run than pretty much all the B5 movies put together.

 

[firehawk12]

JMS has just said it sold well and that WB had wanted more, but they wouldn't increase the budget which angered him as he was not happy with the quality of the first volume. He intended to make a series of Lost Tales and eventually go into the Telepath War, but the budget WB was putting forth was not enough to do what he wanted. He didn't expect to make a big budget film or anything, he just wanted some extra money. Hes always had to deal with shoestring budgets for Babylon 5 franchise and was not happy with the quality of the later movies due to it. MGM budgets were much higher also for the Stargate films, with them being over 7mil each.

I doubt we will ever see a big budget movie unless WB in the future would attempt some kind of big film adaption which would probably be a series reboot or new version.... doubt it would be the same.

He talked a while about doing B5 comics as he dabbled a bit with that for DC comics but in limited run series. With him being a comic book guy mainly now, it would have been interesting to see him continue by going that route since it's what they did with Buffy and recently with the creator of Farscape continuing his series through comics.

I think the thing is that if he did a movie, he wouldn't need to go with WB. Of course, they're the only one who would be likely to even consider funding such a project anyway.

As for comics... eh, I guess that's a solution, but it's like the pseudo-canon Star Trek books. I don't think I care enough to follow that stuff, regardless of how it fits into the lore.

 

[Kai Dracon]

At this point, I think anything B-5 related would have to be a project that seemed unrelated on the surface. Essentially a big idea sci-fi series, or potential film trilogy, that just so happened to take place in the B-5 universe.

I kinda feel there might be too much stigma to the notion of resurrecting B-5 directly. Baggage attached, making the project smell more complicated and expensive than it really has to be.

Best thing to do, might be to set said project many years further into the future, and reveal world building points that indicate it is indeed the future of the B5-verse. But nothing that would give new viewers the idea that they were expected to buy into an existing franchise.

JMS did toss out there this idea of a million years of history in that universe, between the end of B-5 and humanity's ultimate fate.

 

[firehawk12]

You know, I actually own the B5 bible that came with buying all the B5 scripts (what a tremendous waste of money in hindsight) but I never actually looked through it to see how much of it was planned out. lol

I assume he could come up with something if needed. I wouldn't mind if he took another shot at TV nowadays, but I don't think science fiction has a place on TV anymore. Especially anything set in the future and in space.

 

[SpoonyBard]

I don't know, the low budget on B5 didn't seem to matter that much compared to DS9, where the lack of FX budget resulted in uninteresting space battle scenes and painfully obvious lack of shields in ships not called Defiant. Sure, some textures were flat and low resolution, and composite shots blurry, but that didn't matter much, because the battles were dramatic and interesting (for the most part, there's also several very chaotic battle scenes in B5). In DS9 the battles were embarrassingly bad in comparison... there's no drama, just a bunch of ships exploding everywhere. And no shields. In TNG scenes where Enterprise faced a single Romulan ship had more drama than 1000 ship battle in DS9.

 

[maharg]

You know, I actually own the B5 bible that came with buying all the B5 scripts (what a tremendous waste of money in hindsight) but I never actually looked through it to see how much of it was planned out. lol

I assume he could come up with something if needed. I wouldn't mind if he took another shot at TV nowadays, but I don't think science fiction has a place on TV anymore. Especially anything set in the future and in space.

I wish like hell I had that bible but I'm glad I didn't go through with buying the whole damn set to get it.

At this point, I think anything B-5 related would have to be a project that seemed unrelated on the surface. Essentially a big idea sci-fi series, or potential film trilogy, that just so happened to take place in the B-5 universe.

I kinda feel there might be too much stigma to the notion of resurrecting B-5 directly. Baggage attached, making the project smell more complicated and expensive than it really has to be.

Best thing to do, might be to set said project many years further into the future, and reveal world building points that indicate it is indeed the future of the B5-verse. But nothing that would give new viewers the idea that they were expected to buy into an existing franchise.

JMS did toss out there this idea of a million years of history in that universe, between the end of B-5 and humanity's ultimate fate.

Thing is every time he goes to fill a piece of it it's just incredibly derivative of the period we know and love. Oooh ancient alien artifact produces ancient alien evil! Usually with none of the subtlety of the Shadows/Vorlons either.

The only thing he's ever hinted at that seems like a story worth telling is the

Spoiler

Telepath War

. The books, Crusade, and B5 S5 all give fragments that make it seem interesting. I'm just not sure I trust JMS to tell it well, tbh. I think lightning struck once, really.

 

[Carcetti]

I don't know, the low budget on B5 didn't seem to matter that much compared to DS9, where the lack of FX budget resulted in uninteresting space battle scenes and painfully obvious lack of shields in ships not called Defiant. Sure, some textures were flat and low resolution, and composite shots blurry, but that didn't matter much, because the battles were dramatic and interesting (for the most part, there's also several very chaotic battle scenes in B5). In DS9 the battles were embarrassingly bad in comparison... there's no drama, just a bunch of ships exploding everywhere. And no shields. In TNG scenes where Enterprise faced a single Romulan ship had more drama than 1000 ship battle in DS9.

I never really watched DS9 but people hyping it made me check out a few episodes of that dominion thing later on. The only thing I remember that there was this big battle where the federation is going somewhere and they have to go through the enemy fleet by 'punching' through it... and playing stuff like Homeworld made me go like 'Eh, space is huge and in 3d, can't they just go over or under...

Maybe you just had to be there when it aired.

 

[Cheerilee]

I think lightning struck once, really.

Captain Power and the Soldiers of the Future?

 

[lastplayed]

I don't know, the low budget on B5 didn't seem to matter that much compared to DS9, where the lack of FX budget resulted in uninteresting space battle scenes and painfully obvious lack of shields in ships not called Defiant. Sure, some textures were flat and low resolution, and composite shots blurry, but that didn't matter much, because the battles were dramatic and interesting (for the most part, there's also several very chaotic battle scenes in B5). In DS9 the battles were embarrassingly bad in comparison... there's no drama, just a bunch of ships exploding everywhere. And no shields. In TNG scenes where Enterprise faced a single Romulan ship had more drama than 1000 ship battle in DS9.

You didn't think The Die Is Cast, Way of the Warrior, Call to Arms or Sacrifice of Angels were dramatic? I thought they handled them pretty well.

 

[SpoonyBard]

You didn't think The Die Is Cast, Way of the Warrior, Call to Arms or Sacrifice of Angels were dramatic? I thought they handled them pretty well.

I think Sacrifice of Angels has the biggest battle out of those... but the battle itself is not very dramatic, you never have a very clear picture of what's happening. They are trying to punch a hole in the enemy fleet... how? Why? Why can't one ship just circle around the whole battle and get to DS9? If there was a small number of ships vs. small number of ships you'd have a clearer picture of what's going on. The episode had drama, but that came from Rom's sabotage attempt, and from the fact that they didn't have much time.

 

[lastplayed]

Any small group that tries to get around the battle could be intercepted and risk being outnumbered I guess, that's why you send in the fleet to hopefully overwhelm the enemy. But I don't know what Sisko was planning to do once he got to DS9. The prophets wiping out the Dominion fleet probably wasn't part of their plan.

Starship engagements in Star Trek always seemed ridiculously close range to me, but it wouldn't make for very engaging TV if all you saw were points of light shooting each other.

 

[Carcetti]

My gold standard for Trek action are Balance of Terror and Wrath of Khan and they both are slow burn human drama. I guess I just have an issue with the DS9 style of ships blowing up every second.

 

[SpoonyBard]

Any small group that tries to get around the battle could be intercepted and risk being outnumbered I guess, that's why you send in the fleet to hopefully overwhelm the enemy. But I don't know what Sisko was planning to do once he got to DS9. The prophets wiping out the Dominion fleet probably wasn't part of their plan.

Starship engagements in Star Trek always seemed ridiculously close range to me, but it wouldn't make for very engaging TV if all you saw were points of light shooting each other.

Yeah, suspension of disbelief is always needed when watching these space operas, but punching a hole into enemy fleet was a bit too much for me I got that it was a tactic stolen from some ancient sea battles, but in order for me to believe that it's still a valid tactic in space they need to show me how it actually works. The battle tactics in Star Trek 2 wouldn't work in real life, but it was still fantastic to watch.

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

Way of the Warrior is my favourite flash bang space action trek episode.

Spoiler

Now witness the firepower of this fully armed and operational battle station!"

Anyone remember picard's blockade to stop the romulans helping the house of duras in TNG? Logic behind that was beyond terrible. Though it did afford us some great Data scenes.

Oh man, Tie Defenders were awesome. Still remember building huge numbers of them to crush the rebels in Supremecy.

 

[The Librarian]

My gold standard for Trek action are Balance of Terror and Wrath of Khan and they both are slow burn human drama. I guess I just have an issue with the DS9 style of ships blowing up every second.

From your posts it seems to me you only watched a few episodes six seasons in, without any knowledge of the characters or the events that have taken place in the previous five, and then judge it based on some faint details you remember. I think you should have an issue with that more than anything.

 

[Jackpot]

The Diamond Select Enterprise D is my favourite Trek toy/model ever though, it has a nice weight to it (it's missing the neck windows though, that sucks).

If you send off to the company, they will mail you the window decals.

There's also a new Enterprise D model made by Aoshima that is slightly smaller, but the windows light up too.

 

[Escape Goat]

i'll pay somebody 5 bars of gold pressed latinum to assemble one of those for me. I'm too lazy.

 

[Jackpot]

i'll pay somebody 5 bars of gold pressed latinum to assemble one of those for me. I'm too lazy.

These ones are assembled (no glue, stickers, wiring). But they really do cost 5 bars.

They also have saucer separation with magnets. Diamond Select one plays sound when you pull them apart.

 

[Escape Goat]

These ones are assembled (no glue, stickers, wiring). But they really do cost 5 bars.

They also have saucer separation with magnets. Diamond Select one plays sound when you pull them apart.

Well they can shove those bars up their torpedo tubes. I'm too cheap for that.

 

[The Librarian]

If you send off to the company, they will mail you the window decals.

There's also a new Enterprise D model made by Aoshima that is slightly smaller, but the windows light up too.

What? A model of the Enterprise-D? That's awesome! I'll save a link and – $250?!

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004VDBGUA/?tag=neogaf0e-20



Looks like they don't make 'em anymore too.

 

[BattleMonkey]

I really wish Art Asylum (Diamond Select) would continue to put out new ships, they put out great stuff that was affordable and also would kill for them to put out some non Federation ships too.

I don't know, the low budget on B5 didn't seem to matter that much compared to DS9, where the lack of FX budget resulted in uninteresting space battle scenes and painfully obvious lack of shields in ships not called Defiant. Sure, some textures were flat and low resolution, and composite shots blurry, but that didn't matter much, because the battles were dramatic and interesting (for the most part, there's also several very chaotic battle scenes in B5). In DS9 the battles were embarrassingly bad in comparison... there's no drama, just a bunch of ships exploding everywhere. And no shields. In TNG scenes where Enterprise faced a single Romulan ship had more drama than 1000 ship battle in DS9.

B5 had some of the most amazing space battles, and yea lot of the dominion war was pretty boring battle wise especially with all that reused footage. Making the battles large and epic seemed to make them worse for Trek and it was always the smaller scale engagements that had more impact. DS9 also felt so inconsistent in the battles, ships dying in single shots, shuttle craft taking out warships, everything flying and shooting at point blank for some reason, shields not existing randomly....

B5's issues though mainly with follow up stuff was problematic since they had to basically redo it all. B5 during it's run continually updated it's sets and and such each time they got new season funding, they reused alot and had stuff to work with, but when it came time to do Lost Tales they mostly had to completely start from scratch. The Stargate movies for example got around 7mil+ and they had tons of material from the TV series they could use in the production ready to go.

JMS I think also had aspirations to do something big with B5 with what he was doing with Crusade and then wanting to make something big out of his telepath war which never happened. He would have needed some good support to go anywhere big and create another epic like he created with the original B5 series.

 

[BattleMonkey]

Also probably already known or most had figured it was gonna happen, but Star Trek: Infinite Space has been officially canceled: http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/08/08/star-trek-infinite-space-canned/

 

[Slayven]

I hope the next Star Trek series is about civilians. Maybe a ragtag group of explorers.

 

[GameplayWhore]

LOL you just described the Remember Me plot though!

I had a pretty extended length dream of that episode last night. I was Beverly Crusher*, and I remember running out of time before the universe ceases to exist. I had to get to the transporter, which was [TECH] so that it would bring me back to the real universe once I go through it.

I actually made it out with seconds to spare and woke up in mid-transport.

:lol

You know, even in a field of television as chemistry-barren as SF, I think it's notably just how little chemistry these two had.

The cool thing about Science Fiction is that sometimes you can have aliens who are alien not just in how they look but in how they think. The Founders were a lot like that… except that when Odo started puppy dogging for Kira, he was massively humanized. I felt that was a huge mistake.



* and not once did I peek under my own uniform; what's wrong with me!

 

[CorrisD]

What? A model of the Enterprise-D? That's awesome! I'll save a link and – $250?!

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004VDBGUA/?tag=neogaf0e-20



Looks like they don't make 'em anymore too.

Oh man, you americans get much better pricing than us on those models.
I would totally pick up the smaller snap-together Sovereign and Galaxy if we got that price here, $15 is like £10, but they are like £20+ each here and harder to find.

 

[maharg]

Captain Power and the Soldiers of the Future?

Haha. Hey, ya know that show wasn't that bad other than the seizure inducing toy gimmick.

 

[firehawk12]

Captain Power and the Soldiers of the Future?

Haha. Hey, ya know that show wasn't that bad other than the seizure inducing toy gimmick.

In all seriousness, did anyone ever watch Jeremiah or whatever that show was called? lol

Also probably already known or most had figured it was gonna happen, but Star Trek: Infinite Space has been officially canceled: http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/08...-space-canned/

How do you even make a Star Trek game without a publisher? Is the license just giving out piecemeal these days?

 

[maharg]

In all seriousness, did anyone ever watch Jeremiah or whatever that show was called? lol

Jeremiah is, I think JMS' second best work on television. If you're a fan of B5 you should probably watch it. He left production of it part way through (after the first season, I think) and it goes a bit off the rails from there, but it's still more complete in vision than Crusade was.

 

[GungHo]

Jeremiah is, I think JMS' second best work on television. If you're a fan of B5 you should probably watch it. He left production of it part way through (after the first season, I think) and it goes a bit off the rails from there, but it's still more complete in vision than Crusade was.

Jerimiah season 1 was great.

 

[firehawk12]

Did he leave the show because of creative differences? I think I never checked it out because I heard S2 ends on a cliffhanger.

 

[CarbonatedFalcon]

Hahaha. In the middle of DS9 S4 "Rejoined" and I just had to stop and make a comment.

Lesbo Dax is great, but Julian being friend-zoned to the max is hilarious.

And just a general comment on the series - I like how the banter between Julian and and O'Brien has developed. "Hippocratic Oath" - "I wish Keiko could be more like....a man."

 

[Error]

I'm loving this show now (before I was just enjoying it), the writing is a lot better in season 2 imo. I still dislike the new doctor, but that's just a minor complaint.

the acting seems better, too. season 1 had some really weak acting (aside from patrick stewart he is always great) in some of the episodes, but now it looks like everyone has settled into their roles and it shows.

and I heard season 3 is even better, shieeeeeeeeeeeeeeetttttttt.

 

[firehawk12]

Hahaha. In the middle of DS9 S4 "Rejoined" and I just had to stop and make a comment.

Lesbo Dax is great, but Julian being friend-zoned to the max is hilarious.

And just a general comment on the series - I like how the banter between Julian and and O'Brien has developed. "Hippocratic Oath" - "I wish Keiko could be more like....a man."

This is basically as close as Trek ever got to having a "canon" gay character and even that ends in tragedy. lol

 

[Red Liquorice]

I'm re-watching DS9 at the moment and I'm about half a dozen episodes into S6, 'Who Mourns For Morn?'

Things I like about DS9:
Bajor/wormhole stuff - interesting backstory to Bajor itself and then the Cardassian occupation. I don't think we ever see enough of Bajor itself, I would've liked to see more ancient temples and things of that nature.

Kira & Odo - I like the characters individually and I like how they played the romance angle, but they did stretch that out too long.

Ferengi - Quark's mother and the Magus are great guest characters and Rom is always good for a laugh, perfect "Duuuuuuuh, okay Boss" sidekick voice.

Dukat and Garek - Anything with either of these two is a treat. Would make a great odd couple spin off sitcom with Kira as the angry landlady.


Things I dislike about DS9:

Adult Jake - when the first thing you see in an episode is Jake, you know you're in trouble. Poor Nog having to hang around with this dork.

Dax/Worf - Dax likes Klingons, it should work, but they have even less chemistry than Kira and Odo. And Worf coming into the show never worked - he has no purpose, the character is boring, and it meant more Klingon episodes. Klingons aren't the worst, but you get a new show, you explore new races, it feels like Klingons are a fan favourite (?) so they used Worf coming in to boost ratings with the usual stuff about honour and clans.

Julian - Just Julian. :/ - I think the O'Brian stuff where he likes him but would never want to admit it to his face is perfect for how the audience feels about him too.

Gem Hadar/Dominion stuff is incredibly boring. A huge part of S5 and early S6 deals with all this. It wasn't so bad at first, but there seems to be whole blocks of bang bang shoot em up episodes involving the Klingons, Cardassians and the Dominion. I like the idea of a created soldier race addicted to a substance they can only get from their masters, but their design was really flat and as bad as the Kazon from Voyager IMO.


I can't wrap my head about Cisko - is he a good guy or just another starfleet captain with a stick up his ass? Is he good at acting stiff or is he just incredibly wooden?

The balance of characters and set up of DS9 starts out good, but it really dips in S4 & 5. I have to stick it out till the end to see if S6 & 7 pick up since I can't remember.

 

[SpoonyBard]

Dax/Worf - Dax likes Klingons, it should work, but they have even less chemistry than Kira and Odo. And Worf coming into the show never worked - he has no purpose, the character is boring, and it meant more Klingon episodes. Klingons aren't the worst, but you get a new show, you explore new races, it feels like Klingons are a fan favourite (?) so they used Worf coming in to boost ratings with the usual stuff about honour and clans.

I totally agree about the Klingon episodes... Errand of Mercy and Star Trek 3 are good, but most of the time I watch new Klingon episodes I keep wondering how a society that is so goddamn dumb could possibly work. Worf is ok tho, Dax/Worf thing worked relatively well in my opinion, especially compared to Odo and Kira. Dax used to be too easygoing and happy in order to be interesting, and having Worf around to annoy her made the character more likeable.

I'm not sure what to think about Dax 2.0 on season 7... she was kind of interesting, but there were too many episodes dedicated to her.

 

[Red Liquorice]

I never had a problem with Worf in TNG, but I don't think he worked in the DS9 cast mix.

I see how he was a foil for Dax though, another interesting new race that only had a couple of backstory episodes that I can remember. And I forgot all about Dax 2.0 :O

 

[benjipwns]

Moore basically got to create Klingon society from scratch.

The one thing I always laugh at with the DS9 ten-parter to end the series is the Gowron stuff. They had a civil war after Picard playing this major role as arbiter in a ceremony to make Gowron the successor Chancellor to K'mpec. And then in DS9, Worf just kills him in the conference room and he gets to be Chancellor if he wants.

 

[lastplayed]

I really liked Bashir, especially how he became more grounded and miserable as the show progressed. It was funny seeing how Data/Spock like he became after coming out of the GE closet.

And changeling Bashir was the best. So creepy.

 

[The Librarian]

Bashir's character development was amazing. At first he was this naive, arrogant, kind-of playboy young man with a rosy view of the universe. Then through his relationships with characters like O'Brien and Garak, in addition to being a part of horrible events like "The Quickening" and "Nor the Battle to the Strong," he became more realistic and down-to-earth.

Best Star Trek doctor.