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holy shit THIS SHOW!

 

[bndadm]

Yeah, I just started reading Piller's manuscript on the writing of Insurrection. I'm very interested to check it out, because I generally like Piller.

In the end, Insurrection became so watered-down that its final product was barely as ambitious as some of the standalone episodes Piller wrote. Comparing it to the double episodes almost gives it too much credit. For me, it's the most forgettable of the movies.

There's a lot of interesting themes in the film, though I would not have dug at all the Apocolypse Now scenario with Data from the earlier drafts, but it actually seemed like the production values were what hurt it most.

Is it even possible to defend the joystick controlling the Enterprise (let alone that static warp shell thing that only seems to happen because they need something for the ship to do)? Or the HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE design of the scoop vessel that the film climaxes on? It looks unfinished!

 

[GameplayWhore]

There's a lot of interesting themes in the film, though I would not have dug at all the Apocolypse Now scenario with Data from the earlier drafts, but it actually seemed like the production values were what hurt it most.

Is it even possible to defend the joystick controlling the Enterprise (let alone that static warp shell thing that only seems to happen because they need something for the ship to do)? Or the HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE design of the scoop vessel that the film climaxes on? It looks unfinished!

Or the slowest ramming scene in history?

(I'm thinking of the correct one, right?)

 

[bndadm]

Or the slowest ramming scene in history?

(I'm thinking of the correct one, right?)

I may need someone else to help answer this - I thought the ramming one was from Nemesis against Tom Hardy's big stealth thingy.

 

[firehawk12]

That's the problem with the production. I'm talking about the problem with the result. Why it was unambitious is kind of unimportant. Prior to Insurrection even the bad films were still ambitious. TMP was trying to be high concept, TFF was trying to be profound, Search for Spock was trying to undo something really big, Generations was trying to pass the torch.

Insurrection is just kinda there.

Eh, Insurrection was like The Final Frontier, with the crew examining themselves in light of their age.

All the TNG movies are pretty bad though. I mean, I think All Good Things is better than any of the films at least.

 

[maharg]

Ramming scene was Nemesis. Personally I think as silly as it was it was still better than anything in Insurrection.

Eh, Insurrection was like The Final Frontier, with the crew examining themselves in light of their age.

I think if that was the intent it didn't really shine through. Or at least, no more than it ever shone through in an episode that dealt with the same thing. I think that might highlight a difference between TNG and TOS, really. In TOS they all seemed so young. In TNG there was a sense of them coming already-aged. A lot of episodes dealt with that theme even fairly early in the show, especially with Picard. So, again, it makes Insurrection seem all the more unambitious.

All the TNG movies are pretty bad though. I mean, I think All Good Things is better than any of the films at least.

On this we can definitely agree. Though First Contact has quite a following I've never gotten why. I think it marks the point where the Borg got stupid.

 

[firehawk12]

First Contact is probably remembered for the action scenes... and I suppose the Borg were still somewhat interesting at that point, with what happened between Lore and Hugh. But yeah, Borg Queen basically made the Borg horrible on Voyager. lol

At least DS9 avoided the Borg for the most part.

 

[Henchmen21]

Eh, Insurrection was like The Final Frontier, with the crew examining themselves in light of their age.

All the TNG movies are pretty bad though. I mean, I think All Good Things is better than any of the films at least.

Pretty sure you're thinking of Undiscovered Country. That one greatly deals with age and how we deal with change. TFF was just about finding God.

 

[LakeEarth]

Is it even possible to defend the joystick controlling the Enterprise (let alone that static warp shell thing that only seems to happen because they need something for the ship to do)? Or the HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE design of the scoop vessel that the film climaxes on? It looks unfinished!

I didn't notice when I first watched it, but the background of the "collector" fight is just the blue screen that they didn't have the money to animate.

 

[firehawk12]

Pretty sure you're thinking of Undiscovered Country. That one greatly deals with age and how we deal with change. TFF was just about finding God.

Naw, TFF's best part is the campfire scene with Kirk, Spock, and Bones. It's where Kirk says his "I know I'll die alone" thing (which is where M&B came up with Kirk's death for Generations, presumably).

 

[Henchmen21]

Naw, TFF's best part is the campfire scene with Kirk, Spock, and Bones. It's where Kirk says his "I know I'll die alone" thing (which is where M&B came up with Kirk's death for Generations, presumably).

Yeah but I'd hardly call that a large or important theme of the movie. TWOK also had a slight theme of getting older (think Kirk's discussion with Carol Marcus about David) but I also wouldn't call that significant in the movie and at least in there it had more prominence.

 

[firehawk12]

Well, TWOK was about Kirk needing to get back into the Captain's chair and how he shouldn't waste what's left of his life. "I feel young" refers more to rediscovering what he wanted in life, I think.

I'll be honest though, I can't remember much about TFF other than the beginning, Sybok, and "What does God need with a starship?". lol

 

[flyover]

On this we can definitely agree. Though First Contact has quite a following I've never gotten why. I think it marks the point where the Borg got stupid.

You're right. It was really a tipping point for ruining the Borg (a job that Voyager did its best to see through to completion). But I think First Contact is a good movie on its own merits, provided you can temporarily put out of your mind what the Borg were like in their early appearances.

 

[Henchmen21]

You're right. It was really a tipping point for ruining the Borg (a job that Voyager did its best to see through to completion). But I think First Contact is a good movie on its own merits, provided you can temporarily put out of your mind what the Borg were like in their early appearances.

Borg Queen aside, I hate the new look they gave them. All the tubes and wires they had going through them was the best part of what made the borg so visually scary. That and the new appearance looked more like a costume than before.

 

[Jsquared77]

Borg Queen aside, I hate the new look they gave them. All the tubes and wires they had going through them was the best part of what made the borg so visually scary. That and the new appearance looked more like a costume than before.

What I hated was the instant assimilation thing they started...and Voyager ran with. Was much more intriguing when it was a process(see Locutus).

I still love me some First Contact though. If for nothing else then opening battle scene where the Enterprise E dwarfs the Defiant in that fly by shot.

 

[Rinoa]

Back then I figured the borg were evolving fast so the old process of slow assimilation was no longer a thing and they start to look different. The Queen was obv thrown in there for sex appeal and to put a face to the enemy in the storyline.

What I hated was the instant assimilation thing they started...and Voyager ran with. Was much more intriguing when it was a process(see Locutus).

I still love me some First Contact though. If for nothing else then opening battle scene where the Enterprise E dwarfs the Defiant in that fly by shot.

The high tension zero G battle is my fave.

 

[Escape Goat]

Back then I figured the borg were evolving fast so the old process of slow assimilation was no longer a thing and they start to look different. The Queen was obv thrown in there for sex appeal and to put a face to the enemy in the storyline.



The high tension zero G battle is my fave.

"Assimilate this!"


Star Trek gets a cool one liner.

 

[Deleted member 102362]

Anyone get their replacement discs yet? I'm hoping mine show up this week.

ALSO! Both the original and extended cuts of "The Measure of a Man" will be on the S2 Blu-ray.

Back in July when I had the pleasure of speaking to Mike and Denise Okuda, they advised that everyone at CBS were trying their hardest to make an extended cut of the season two classic "The Measure of a Man" possible (read the original interview here). Yesterday the team finally announced that all their hard work had paid off and "The Measure of a Man" is indeed being remastered to be presented as an extended cut. Furthermore, the team confirmed that the episode is being reconstructed as if it's a new episode and will be presented in full HD. Even more exciting is that CBS will be producing "a couple of new visual effects" for the extended footage to allow the new footage to be seemlessly integrated into the existing episode.

CBS have also confirmed that both the extended version and the original "network" cut of the episode will be included in the Season 2 Blu-Ray boxset.

 

[Htown]

I still love me some First Contact though. If for nothing else then opening battle scene where the Enterprise E dwarfs the Defiant in that fly by shot.

First Contact came out when the franchise was at a high point. There were two shows running, plus the TNG movies, and one of the things I liked about FC was the fact that it actually seemed like it took place in the same universe as the other Trek shows. The two cameos from the shows (the Defiant and the Holodoc) were both handled well, IMO.

The only thing about the Defiant was that i kind of wish Worf wasn't the only cast member we saw on that ship in the movie. How awesome would it have been if O'Brien had replaced random blue shirt guy?

regarding the S2 blu-ray, I can't imagine what you'd add to Measure of a Man

 

[Dartastic]

For my Star Trek class we had to read a book. I decided to read Gulliver's Fugitives. Goddamn it's bad. Just sayin.

 

[Henchmen21]

Anyone get their replacement discs yet? I'm hoping mine show up this week.

ALSO! Both the original and extended cuts of "The Measure of a Man" will be on the S2 Blu-ray.

The episode is a court room drama. Why would you need new fx shots? Also, how could you make an extended edition of it?

above poster... Imzadi is pretty much the only decent trek book imo.

 

[user_nat]

Does Measure of a Man contain flashbacks? Maybe they simply added more of them.

 

[Escape Goat]

The episode is a court room drama. Why would you need new fx shots? Also, how could you make an extended edition of it?

above poster... Imzadi is pretty much the only decent trek book imo.

Could be SFX shot of the station they were at. Or some CGI shots of Picard sexing that female captain in bed.

 

[Jsquared77]

First Contact came out when the franchise was at a high point. There were two shows running, plus the TNG movies, and one of the things I liked about FC was the fact that it actually seemed like it took place in the same universe as the other Trek shows. The two cameos from the shows (the Defiant and the Holodoc) were both handled well, IMO.

The only thing about the Defiant was that i kind of wish Worf wasn't the only cast member we saw on that ship in the movie. How awesome would it have been if O'Brien had replaced random blue shirt guy?

Sadly, I didn't follow DS9 until they started wearing FC uniforms. So when I saw FC in the theater, the novelty of the Defiant cameo was lost on me. And yeah I wish they would have capitalized on it a little more than just using it as a vessel to get Worf into the movie.

 

[firehawk12]

The Defiant must have been seeded as a reason to get Worf in FC though. They made a point of saying that it was designed to fight the Borg in the episode that Sisko brought it to the station.

Speaking of the Borg... I'm just reminded of Shelby and the fact that she basically became a main character in the Star Trek: Excalibur spinoff series written by Peter David. Am I the only person who read that back in the day? lol

 

[Escape Goat]

The Defiant must have been seeded as a reason to get Worf in FC though. They made a point of saying that it was designed to fight the Borg in the episode that Sisko brought it to the station.

Speaking of the Borg... I'm just reminded of Shelby and the fact that she basically became a main character in the Star Trek: Excalibur spinoff series written by Peter David. Am I the only person who read that back in the day? lol

The Defiant showed up when Worf was still on TNG. Defiant premiered in the S2 opener and Worf joined DS9 in the middle of the 4th season.

Sisko was stationed at Utopia Planitia after his ship got blown up at Wolf 359. Makes sense Sisko would have had a hand in its design and therefore been able to lobby for its deployment to DS9. Its just a nice covenience to have Worf take the ship into battle for the movie.

 

[Error]

I love Data-based episodes he is so clueless to human emotions and behavior that makes for some very amusing scenes. One of the best characters in the show for me.

 

[maharg]

Back then I figured the borg were evolving fast so the old process of slow assimilation was no longer a thing and they start to look different. The Queen was obv thrown in there for sex appeal and to put a face to the enemy in the storyline.

Giving the Borg a face was the dumbest decision ever. They were much scarier and villainous when their every action didn't stem from the whims of a drama queen.

 

[Gonky]

The Defiant showed up when Worf was still on TNG. Defiant premiered in the S2 opener and Worf joined DS9 in the middle of the 4th season.

Sisko was stationed at Utopia Planitia after his ship got blown up at Wolf 359. Makes sense Sisko would have had a hand in its design and therefore been able to lobby for its deployment to DS9. Its just a nice covenience to have Worf take the ship into battle for the movie.

Defiant showed up in the S3 opener and Worf the start of S4. Sorry for the pedantry.

 

[Htown]

My biggest problem with the Queen is the fact that they felt they had to retcon her into Picard's previous experience with the Borg for some reason, even though it obviously didn't make sense and they had to have that "you think so three dimensionally" nonsense line.

Like, why make that stretch? How was it important to the movie? It's dumb.

 

[Walshicus]

Here's a question that's been bothering me on and off for a while now: why didn't the crew on Voyager change to the TNG Movie / Later DS9 uniforms?

The show runners on DS9 thought it was best to change, so why didn't the guys running Voyager? Would be interesting to know the decision making on that one.

 

[Darkflight]

Here's a question that's been bothering me on and off for a while now: why didn't the crew on Voyager change to the TNG Movie / Later DS9 uniforms?

The show runners on DS9 thought it was best to change, so why didn't the guys running Voyager? Would be interesting to know the decision making on that one.

Attempt to show they were on limited resources so couldn't produce all new ones? Though they could have just recycled their current ones I guess.

 

[Deleted member 102362]

regarding the S2 blu-ray, I can't imagine what you'd add to Measure of a Man

The episode is a court room drama. Why would you need new fx shots? Also, how could you make an extended edition of it?

Does Measure of a Man contain flashbacks? Maybe they simply added more of them.

Here's an .RTF of the teleplay with the deleted moments highlighted (courtesy of this post.)

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

Does anyone else rewatch Final Frontier simply for the mountain/row row row row row row your boat scenes?

above poster... Imzadi is pretty much the only decent trek book imo.

Not quite that bad. You didn't like The Final Reflection, Federation, Q-Squared, Doctor's Orders or A Stitch in Time?

Probably around 50-60 good trek books(which sounds a lot but isn't when you realise how many trek books there are). Gulliver's Fugitives is indeed terrible.

 

[Walshicus]

Does anyone else rewatch Final Frontier simply for the mountain/row row row row row row your boat scenes?



Not quite that bad. You didn't like The Final Reflection, Federation, Q-Squared, Doctor's Orders or A Stitch in Time?

Probably around 50-60 good trek books(which sounds a lot but isn't when you realise how many trek books there are). Gulliver's Fugitives is indeed terrible.

"Federation" is a pretty good book. The Zefram Cochran described is a hundred times more interesting than the one from First Contact.

 

[Deleted member 102362]

Does anyone else rewatch Final Frontier simply for the mountain/row row row row row row your boat scenes?

As much flack as Five gets, I still like that scene. Kick/Spock/McCoy is one of the best character trios in fiction.

 

[Rinoa]

First Contact came out when the franchise was at a high point. There were two shows running, plus the TNG movies, and one of the things I liked about FC was the fact that it actually seemed like it took place in the same universe as the other Trek shows. The two cameos from the shows (the Defiant and the Holodoc) were both handled well, IMO.

The only thing about the Defiant was that i kind of wish Worf wasn't the only cast member we saw on that ship in the movie. How awesome would it have been if O'Brien had replaced random blue shirt guy?

regarding the S2 blu-ray, I can't imagine what you'd add to Measure of a Man

I'd be down for an O'brien cameo. But not without some Guinan. I feel like whasername replaced Guinan's voice of reason in this movie somewhat, however Guinan doesn't always have a voice of reason when it comes to the Borg and Q, which I like.

Giving the Borg a face was the dumbest decision ever. They were much scarier and villainous when their every action didn't stem from the whims of a drama queen.

My biggest problem with the Queen is the fact that they felt they had to retcon her into Picard's previous experience with the Borg for some reason, even though it obviously didn't make sense and they had to have that "you think so three dimensionally" nonsense line.

Like, why make that stretch? How was it important to the movie? It's dumb.

Having a "bad guy" makes it easier for the hurr yeah explosions (non ST fan) audience to enjoy the movie I'm sure.

I really hate any sort of retcon on tv/film so this grated on me, especially since any ST fan knows Best of Both Worlds inside and out, it wasn't some random episode they were retconning. It did make for some funny lines and scenes with data though.

 

[Mr. Luchador]

Do you think we'll ever get another Star Trek TV Series?

 

[Escape Goat]

Do you think we'll ever get another Star Trek TV Series?

Not for a long time. We'll have to wait for Abrams to leave Trek or for people to lose interest. And then they'll wait another 10 years for people to forget this latest generation of Trek movies and start with a new series.

 

[ThLunarian]

Here's a question that's been bothering me on and off for a while now: why didn't the crew on Voyager change to the TNG Movie / Later DS9 uniforms?

The show runners on DS9 thought it was best to change, so why didn't the guys running Voyager? Would be interesting to know the decision making on that one.

It wouldn't make sense for Voyager to even know about the new uniforms, since they were totally out of contact with the rest of Starfleet.

That changed a little when Barclay made contact with them through Project Pathfinder, and at that point I guess they could have switched over... but that was toward the end of the series, and before that, it wouldn't have made sense for them to change.

 

[BattleMonkey]

Do you think we'll ever get another Star Trek TV Series?

Yes. But not for a long time, and when we do it will probably be a form of reboot to the franchise. Though we can hope that it will be a reboot of the likes of TNG. Taking the series forward with a new setting and time period for a new generation of viewers. The TNG-Voyager era stuff is probably done for good.

They need to give the show time off the air to bring it back in a big way like how TNG made a big splash. Their focus now though is that Trek is a film franchise.

 

[firehawk12]

Yes. But not for a long time, and when we do it will probably be a form of reboot to the franchise. Though we can hope that it will be a reboot of the likes of TNG. Taking the series forward with a new setting and time period for a new generation of viewers. The TNG-Voyager era stuff is probably done for good.

They need to give the show time off the air to bring it back in a big way like how TNG made a big splash. Their focus now though is that Trek is a film franchise.

I think it's impossible. Star Trek Voyager and Enterprise only existed because of UPN... and these days, the CW is more interested in vampires and 90210 than anything Star Trek related. Maybe if vampires invaded the Enterprise and started making out with each other. lol

The Defiant showed up when Worf was still on TNG. Defiant premiered in the S2 opener and Worf joined DS9 in the middle of the 4th season.

Sisko was stationed at Utopia Planitia after his ship got blown up at Wolf 359. Makes sense Sisko would have had a hand in its design and therefore been able to lobby for its deployment to DS9. Its just a nice covenience to have Worf take the ship into battle for the movie.

Hrm. Then maybe it was just a happy accident then that the ship was a Borg killer and they needed Worf to head back to the TNG crew. lol

 

[Instigator]

Here's a question that's been bothering me on and off for a while now: why didn't the crew on Voyager change to the TNG Movie / Later DS9 uniforms?

The show runners on DS9 thought it was best to change, so why didn't the guys running Voyager? Would be interesting to know the decision making on that one.

Replicator rations. Oh wait, they dropped that plot detail early in the series.

It's essentially because they didn't have contact with the Alpha quadrant for most of the series.

 

[Rinoa]

I think it's impossible. Star Trek Voyager and Enterprise only existed because of UPN... and these days, the CW is more interested in vampires and 90210 than anything Star Trek related. Maybe if vampires invaded the Enterprise and started making out with each other. lol


Hrm. Then maybe it was just a happy accident then that the ship was a Borg killer and they needed Worf to head back to the TNG crew. lol

Books really dictate those shows. The supernatural romance trend will die out by the next decade, I hope... once they've gone through "fairies" and "angels" again since they've already done tons of "witches" stuff. Unfortunately, the latest book trend is 50 shades.

I think Dorn and someone else kept mentioning that the movies kept having happy accidents to make him part of the ent crew when timeline-wise he wasn't part of it.

 

[Scirrocco]

I think it's impossible. Star Trek Voyager and Enterprise only existed because of UPN... and these days, the CW is more interested in vampires and 90210 than anything Star Trek related. Maybe if vampires invaded the Enterprise and started making out with each other. lol

Why would it have to be on Cw? Doesn't Cbs own the rights to the show? If they get desperate enough, they could just make a new series on CBS itself.

 

[Escape Goat]

Hrm. Then maybe it was just a happy accident then that the ship was a Borg killer and they needed Worf to head back to the TNG crew. lol

Just a nerd note: they invented the Defiant because the writers introduced The Dominion and built them up to be this big threat in the Gamma Quadrant. And all DS9 had was a stationary, um, station and a couple of puny runabouts. So they had to invent a way to create drama and to move the characters to the Gamma Quadrant. That was the impetus for the Defiant. The Borg backstory was just a nice way to incorporate backhistory into the show.

 

[firehawk12]

Books really dictate those shows. The supernatural romance trend will die out by the next decade, I hope... once they've gone through "fairies" and "angels" again since they've already done tons of "witches" stuff. Unfortunately, the latest book trend is 50 shades.

I think Dorn and someone else kept mentioning that the movies kept having happy accidents to make him part of the ent crew when timeline-wise he wasn't part of it.

It's cheaper and more relatable to have actors prance around in modern day cities. The fact that Grimm and... I can't remember the other show both survived is kind of telling anyway.
I hope we go back to the old kind of science fiction as well, but I don't see that happening any time soon. Stargate Universe was probably the last we've seen of that genre for a while. At least in Japan, there's a remake of Starblazers/Space Battleship Yamato airing right now.

And I can't remember, but I guess Worf had some excuse to hop aboard the Enterprise in Insurrection as well. lol

Why would it have to be on Cw? Doesn't Cbs own the rights to the show? If they get desperate enough, they could just make a new series on CBS itself.

Because the only scifi shows on the CW are from the Warner side. And even those are cheaper to make than a show set on a starship.
I'm just looking at the trend that SF has taken though. Nowadays, you make a SF show by setting it in the present and having a "meta plot" create some tie to keep people watching. It's the "Lost" formula. The days when you have men in tights walk around a fake starship seem to be over.

As for why it won't air on CBS... they just have a lot of high rated shows on already. There's no reason to take a chance on SF show that probably won't do well on a main network.

Unless it's a Star Trek: CSI crossover.

Just a nerd note: they invented the Defiant because the writers introduced The Dominion and built them up to be this big threat in the Gamma Quadrant. And all DS9 had was a stationary, um, station and a couple of puny runabouts. So they had to invent a way to create drama and to move the characters to the Gamma Quadrant. That was the impetus for the Defiant. The Borg backstory was just a nice way to incorporate backhistory into the show.

Yeah, and it worked out perfect for First Contact. Although you'd think the Dominion would take advantage of the fact that Starfleet just got wiped out by a Cube!

 

[BattleMonkey]

I think it's impossible. Star Trek Voyager and Enterprise only existed because of UPN... and these days, the CW is more interested in vampires and 90210 than anything Star Trek related. Maybe if vampires invaded the Enterprise and started making out with each other. lol

That's why I was saying not any time soon. Just like TNG, the franchise needs many years off to be on break from TV before they relaunch it, and towards a new generation of fans. Now is obviously not the right time

 

[firehawk12]

That's why I was saying not any time soon. Just like TNG, the franchise needs many years off to be on break from TV before they relaunch it, and towards a new generation of fans. Now is obviously not the right time

TNG and DS9 happened because of syndication though.

Although in 20 years, maybe everyone will be buying TV shows online directly and they can find a series that way.

 

[Walshicus]

It wouldn't make sense for Voyager to even know about the new uniforms, since they were totally out of contact with the rest of Starfleet.

That changed a little when Barclay made contact with them through Project Pathfinder, and at that point I guess they could have switched over... but that was toward the end of the series, and before that, it wouldn't have made sense for them to change.

They make contact with Starfleet and see the new uniforms in about the... fifth series?

Was also odd that they never did a mid-run opening titles change like TNG and DS9 did.