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The General Star Trek Thread of Earl Grey Tea, Baseball, and KHHHAAAANNNN

Cheebo

Banned
Only financially. In every way that mattered, he destroyed it.

Paramount likes the audience who spends 250 million dollars to go see the 2009 Trek, not the ones who went to the TNG films of which not even one crossed 100 million, the last of which made a mere 40 million. You defend the Trek of Nemesis but not the 2009 Trek. Have fun with that.


Except yes. JJ's crapfest of a movie is as much Star Trek as '98 Godzilla is to Godzilla. Or Hallie Barrie Catwoman is to that character.

From now on, Star Trek will be a franchise written by idiots.
Those movies were critical and commercial bombs. Critics loved the 2009 Trek movie and it was a box office hit. Your comparison doesn't work at all.


You need to remember one thing, Star Trek was DEAD before Abrams came along. Dead dead dead. Enterprise failed and was cancelled (and DS9 and Voyager lost most of the TNG audience, Voyager gained Seven of Nine as a pure ratings grab since it was struggling in the ratings). Star Trek Nemesis was a complete bomb and Insurrection did pretty weak before that.

Star Trek before Abrams was as dead as a franchise could be, and was slowly dying in the years leading up to it's death. Abrams as far as Paramount and Hollywood at large is concerned revived a dead franchise and made it bigger than it ever was.

The 90's Godzilla bombed, the Halle Berry Catwoman bombed. Both were trashed by critics.Star Trek 2009 did not bomb, it was a hit. Both commercially and critically.
 

An-Det

Member
Sorry if this inappropriate, I didn't want to create a LTTP thread for a show I'm not done with but does Babylon 5 end in a satisfying or at least not terrible way? BSG's ending retroactively ruined the show for me, so I'd like to avoid that if possible.

I'm going through season 2 and I think I'm at the point where I could drop the show without worrying about the ending, but I wouldn't mind finishing it either. There is a weird change in tone, I'm guessing because Sinclair's actor leaving made Straczynski push the story forward sooner than expected. The show seems to have received a huge budget increase in season 2 though.

The last season is a bit off due to how things were done behind the scenes (the cancelling, resurrection, and rushed plot), but the final episode is amazing and very satisfying. Season 2 is where shit gets awesome, if you're at all interested the hold with it.
 

Cheebo

Banned
As much as I love star trek, sometimes it's better to pull the plug.

So all the fans who love it and rank it as one of the best Trek movies (look at any Trek movie ranking thread, here or at a major Star Trek board like TrekBBS, it is usually rated as one of the top tier films in the franchise by most) should go fuck themselves and not get more Star Trek just because you don't like it?

Most fans liked it, as hard as it might be for you to accept.
 

maharg

idspispopd
Sorry if this inappropriate, I didn't want to create a LTTP thread for a show I'm not done with but does Babylon 5 end in a satisfying or at least not terrible way? BSG's ending retroactively ruined the show for me, so I'd like to avoid that if possible.

I'm going through season 2 and I think I'm at the point where I could drop the show without worrying about the ending, but I wouldn't mind finishing it either. There is a weird change in tone, I'm guessing because Sinclair's actor leaving made Straczynski push the story forward sooner than expected. The show seems to have received a huge budget increase in season 2 though.

If there had ever been a show with a satisfying conclusion, it was Babylon 5. You're in for a treat if you stick with it.

Re. Season 2, the plot did accelerate but I'm pretty sure it was unrelated to the cast change (which was imposed by the network). Honestly if it hadn't accelerated, it would have taken 10 seasons to get where it got, not 5.
 

KarmaCow

Member
The last season is a bit off due to how things were done behind the scenes (the cancelling, resurrection, and rushed plot), but the final episode is amazing and very satisfying. Season 2 is where shit gets awesome, if you're at all interested the hold with it.

If there had ever been a show with a satisfying conclusion, it was Babylon 5. You're in for a treat if you stick with it.

Re. Season 2, the plot did accelerate but I'm pretty sure it was unrelated to the cast change (which was imposed by the network). Honestly if it hadn't accelerated, it would have taken 10 seasons to get where it got, not 5.

Alright that's good to hear. I wasn't particularly turned off by season 2, I guess Sinclair just disappearing was shock even if I like Sheridan more anyway. I heard about Babylon 5 being the show that was planned out ahead of time but I was worried that the realities of networks and actors leaving might have ruined that.

To tie it back to Star Trek, I can see how people can say that DS9...borrowed elements from B5.
 
Alright that's good to hear. I wasn't particularly turned off by season 2, I guess Sinclair just disappearing was shock even if I like Sheridan more anyway. I heard about Babylon 5 being the show that was planned out ahead of time but I was worried that the realities of networks and actors leaving might have ruined that.

To tie it back to Star Trek, I can see how people can say that DS9...borrowed elements from B5.

DS9 didn't borrow anything from B5. None of the writers on the show watched B5.
 

maharg

idspispopd
It's the B5 series bible the DS9 creators were accused of cribbing from, and they almost certainly had access to it from JMS shopping it to Paramount, not the show itself.
 
If you want to score some weak points and say there were elements that may or may not have been duplicated – though nothing is definitive and there's no proof – I guess you can go ahead and do that, but the shows developed independent of each other during their runs. A point based on conjecture isn't really a point. Aside from something outlandish like Dukat, you'd be hard pressed to find where DS9 exactly copied B5 with definitiveness.

But even if DS9 did borrow elements from B5, so what? DS9 wasn't doing that while B5 was airing, and they ended up as very different shows. I know my original point was "DS9 borrowed nothing," but I thought the user I quoted was talking about while the show was airing, not during its inception.
 

maharg

idspispopd
I don't think there's really any points to score. The similarities of the basic concept and the timing are striking and that's about all there is to that. B5 got made and ran to completion, so it doesn't really matter. If it hadn't, then I think we'd all be worse off and the 'theft' would have been very harmful, though.

JMS goes into as much detail as he ever has around 15 minutes into this podcast: http://www.babylonpodcast.com/2009/06/24/babylon-podcast-show-161/ in case anyone's interested in hearing his complete side of the story.
 

KarmaCow

Member
If you want to score some weak points and say there were elements that may or may not have been duplicated – though nothing is definitive and there's no proof – I guess you can go ahead and do that, but the shows developed independent of each other during their runs. A point based on conjecture isn't really a point. Aside from something outlandish like Dukat, you'd be hard pressed to find where DS9 exactly copied B5 with definitiveness.

But even if DS9 did borrow elements from B5, so what? DS9 wasn't doing that while B5 was airing, and they ended up as very different shows. I know my original point was "DS9 borrowed nothing," but I thought the user I quoted was talking about while the show was airing, not during its inception.

I only really got into Star Trek watching reruns in the 2000s, long after TNG/DS9 had ended. I actually heard about B5 through reading more about DS9 and the idea that Straczynski was shopping around this planned out series. I didn't mean to imply that DS9 stole from B5 and therefore was shit, just that there are similar elements.

There are also tons of differences, not includes ones like having different races due to it not being Star Trek. I was thinking that the Narn were going to be ugly aggressive military race in Season 1, but that changed by the end of the season. Looking back on it now, the Centari were a better candidate but even then it's fairly different from the Cardassians. Though perhaps I'm just seeing what I want to see. I'm also pretty early into the series and it should diverge even more in the end.

maharg: Thanks for the link to that podcast, I'll check it out after I'm done with the series.
 

evilwart

Member
And yeah, that's right re. why the Founders took that form. My point still stands, there's no connection between the progenitors and the founders. In fact, the founders may be the only example of unrelated sentient species Star Trek ever had.

Non-humanoid species like the Tholians might not be related I guess. And obviously Species 8472 because their not from the Milky Way galaxy.
 

Bluth54

Member
Except yes. JJ's crapfest of a movie is as much Star Trek as '98 Godzilla is to Godzilla. Or Hallie Barrie Catwoman is to that character.

I'm a big Godzilla and Star Trek fan, and your comparison to the Abrams Trek series to the American Godzilla movie is not even close to correct.

The American Godzilla was not Godzilla and it was clear the writers and directors didn't care about or have any respect for the Japanese films. They didn't give a shit it was a Godzilla movie, they clearly just used the name in hopes it would make more money for them.

Even though the Abrams Trek is much more of an action film and more like a Star Wars movie compared to the previous Star Trek shows and movies, you can tell the creators do like Star Trek and the spirit of Star Trek is still there.

You can also easily tell the difference based on the reactions from the fans. Though I know Star Trek fans are somewhat divided about the Abrams movie, many Trek fans enjoy it. My Dad, a Trek fan since he was a kid, enjoys the Abrams Trek films. My mom and brother, who aren't Trek fans or Sci-Fi fans (aside from my Mom being a Doctor Who fan), both enjoyed the movie.

The Godzilla fan community pretty much universally hates the American Godzilla movie. Though no one else in my family is a Godzilla fan, I can't recall any Godzilla fan, or anyone else for that matter, saying positive things about the American Godzilla film as a Godzilla film.
 

Cheerilee

Member
I'm a big Godzilla and Star Trek fan, and your comparison to the Abrams Trek series to the American Godzilla movie is not even close to correct.

The American Godzilla was not Godzilla and it was clear the writers and directors didn't care about or have any respect for the Japanese films. They didn't give a shit it was a Godzilla movie, they clearly just used the name in hopes it would make more money for them.

Even though the Abrams Trek is much more of an action film and more like a Star Wars movie compared to the previous Star Trek shows and movies, you can tell the creators do like Star Trek and the spirit of Star Trek is still there.

You can also easily tell the difference based on the reactions from the fans. Though I know Star Trek fans are somewhat divided about the Abrams movie, many Trek fans enjoy it. My Dad, a Trek fan since he was a kid, enjoys the Abrams Trek films. My mom and brother, who aren't Trek fans or Sci-Fi fans (aside from my Mom being a Doctor Who fan), both enjoyed the movie.

The Godzilla fan community pretty much universally hates the American Godzilla movie. Though no one else in my family is a Godzilla fan, I can't recall any Godzilla fan, or anyone else for that matter, saying positive things about the American Godzilla film as a Godzilla film.

So you're saying that Star Trek 2009 is like the Raymond Burr English dub of Godzilla?
 

NeOak

Member
If there had ever been a show with a satisfying conclusion, it was Babylon 5. You're in for a treat if you stick with it.

Re. Season 2, the plot did accelerate but I'm pretty sure it was unrelated to the cast change (which was imposed by the network). Honestly if it hadn't accelerated, it would have taken 10 seasons to get where it got, not 5.
I'm curious about that cast change. Could you please explain a bit or link to more info?
 

maharg

idspispopd
I'm curious about that cast change. Could you please explain a bit or link to more info?

Sinclair to Sheridan? The network just wanted someone more recognizable, so they wound up with the guy from Little House on the Prairie (SF TV always has pretty funny ideas of recognizable names). Supposedly it was the last major studio meddling in B5 until the S5 debacle and the even worse issues with Crusade.

Honestly, everything you could ever want to know about B5 is on The Lurker's Guide. JMS was posting about the production of B5 as it happened on AOL for the entire run, so it's probably one of the best documented productions on TV in from the 90s.
 

Cheerilee

Member
Sinclair to Sheridan? The network just wanted someone more recognizable, so they wound up with the guy from Little House on the Prairie (SF TV always has pretty funny ideas of recognizable names).

Bruce Boxlietner? He was Tron! I also recognized him as "that guy from Scarecrow & Mrs King" (TV series about a spy who accidentally involves a housewife in his work, basically the used car salesman's trick from True Lies, but without it being a con to get in the woman's pants).
 

maharg

idspispopd
Yeah, he was Tron, but I don't really feel like he got a lot of name recognition from that until after he came back to SF with B5. Tron himself is a relatively minor role compared to Flynn, even though he's the title character.
 

frey

Member
Finished my TNG marathon this morning, my first time watching it. Ordered the entire DS9 collection as soon as "All good things..." finished and should be arriving tomorrow. Tomorrow will be a good day, I'm sure.
 
If there had ever been a show with a satisfying conclusion, it was Babylon 5. You're in for a treat if you stick with it.

I'd argue against that. I really enjoyed it from the midpoint of Season 2 to the midpoint of Season 4. The entirely of Season 3 was amazing. On the other hand, I was really turned off by "Get the hell out of our galaxy!". I found it unsatisfying for some reason, not related to a lack of explosions. After that, I just had no more interest in the series. It felt like it ran out of story to tell.



Non-humanoid species like the Tholians might not be related I guess. And obviously Species 8472 because their not from the Milky Way galaxy.

There are actually a lot of sentient races like that. Kelvins, some or all of the "god" beings, the sand from that "ugly bags of mostly water" TNG episode, the Companion from the TOS episode with Cochran (well, until the end), arguably the brain creature infestation, arguably the machine race from TMP, the unseen Whale aliens from ST4, arguably dolphins (but that's just in the books, so I don't personally count it save for completeness), the Prophets from DS9, arguably the coalescent being that almost ate Geordie (though that's only sentient when it assumes a host identity), the Goa'uld-like aliens that invaded Starfleet Command.

NO KILL I
 

NeOak

Member
Sinclair to Sheridan? The network just wanted someone more recognizable, so they wound up with the guy from Little House on the Prairie (SF TV always has pretty funny ideas of recognizable names). Supposedly it was the last major studio meddling in B5 until the S5 debacle and the even worse issues with Crusade.

Honestly, everything you could ever want to know about B5 is on The Lurker's Guide. JMS was posting about the production of B5 as it happened on AOL for the entire run, so it's probably one of the best documented productions on TV in from the 90s.

I see. Thanks for the info. Will check it out!
 

maharg

idspispopd
Always meant to getting around to watch B5. Will use that as a guide, thanks.

I would really recommend not reading it until you've already watched it. It's not explicitly spoilery (generally each episode's entry only has info up to that point, but I wouldn't guarantee it), but I think it's better to go in without so much extra context.
 

Davey Cakes

Member
I'd argue against that. I really enjoyed it from the midpoint of Season 2 to the midpoint of Season 4. The entirely of Season 3 was amazing. On the other hand, I was really turned off by "Get the hell out of our galaxy!". I found it unsatisfying for some reason, not related to a lack of explosions. After that, I just had no more interest in the series. It felt like it ran out of story to tell.
The ending episode itself is good. You could basically finish Season 4, read up a bit on the plot leading up to the last episode, and then watch the last episode and the effect would be similar. This is somewhat related to the fact that the final episode was filmed ahead of time, and the general fact that most of B5 was planned out. I don't condone skipping S5 though.

I think the entirety of Seasons 2-4 of Babylon 5 were fantastic. Both halves of S4 were compelling to me. I can't decide which is the best season though. I will say S5 is half mediocre and half good, with a wonderful finale. Basically, S3=S4>S2>S1=S5.

Babylon 5 is a show with a lot of character payoffs. For anyone who enjoys S1 enough to watch S2 and then enjoys S2, full series completion is mandatory in my opinion. And I say this as somebody who didn't watch any of the spinoffs or B5 movies (not even the pilot; I just read the synopsis).
 

maharg

idspispopd
And I say this as somebody who didn't watch any of the spinoffs or B5 movies (not even the pilot; I just read the synopsis).

Alas the spinoffs are all terrible. Crusade had potential but it was meddled with so much that it was just nonsense. :/ When people get upset about what happened to Firefly I just laugh and think of Crusade.
 
I would really recommend not reading it until you've already watched it. It's not explicitly spoilery (generally each episode's entry only has info up to that point, but I wouldn't guarantee it), but I think it's better to go in without so much extra context.

Ah, well that makes sense. I remember seeing the pilot episode once, I remember at the time thinking the SFX were very... dated. So looking forward to see that again!
 

maharg

idspispopd
Yeah the effects are terribly dated. Particularly in the first season. It was pretty state of the art for CG of the time, though. And it never would have been made on a practical effects budget, so it's just the price of it being a rare non-trek success of SF TV (at the time).
 
I never got into B5 much, but I always appreciated its ambition. I also remember the silly 90's Usenet wars between fans of B5 and DS9 :)

It's a shame B5 doesn't seem to be a big part of the geek consciousness now, as it was a landmark in many ways. Are there any plans for a nice Blu-Ray release? I seem to remember much of it was actually filmed in 16:9 so that it was somewhat future-proofed.
 

Zzoram

Member
B5's war story arc ended as unceremoniously as DS9's.

I really liked both shows, I don't get why people can only like one of them.
 

Davey Cakes

Member
It's a shame B5 doesn't seem to be a big part of the geek consciousness now, as it was a landmark in many ways. Are there any plans for a nice Blu-Ray release? I seem to remember much of it was actually filmed in 16:9 so that it was somewhat future-proofed.
In the sci-fi realm I'm not sure if it's as big as Star Trek or maybe Battlestar Galactica, but B5 comes up a lot so I do think it's a relatively large part of the geek consciousness.

It was even mentioned in The Big Bang Theory!
 

MC Safety

Member
So all the fans who love it and rank it as one of the best Trek movies (look at any Trek movie ranking thread, here or at a major Star Trek board like TrekBBS, it is usually rated as one of the top tier films in the franchise by most) should go fuck themselves and not get more Star Trek just because you don't like it?

Most fans liked it, as hard as it might be for you to accept.

I enjoyed the new Star Trek movie while recognizing what I was watching was not Star Trek.

The fans loved the space battles and the explosions and the lens flare. They did not love the characters or the ideas -- because new Star Trek doesn't have any.
 

jb1234

Member
I never got into B5 much, but I always appreciated its ambition. I also remember the silly 90's Usenet wars between fans of B5 and DS9 :)

It's a shame B5 doesn't seem to be a big part of the geek consciousness now, as it was a landmark in many ways. Are there any plans for a nice Blu-Ray release? I seem to remember much of it was actually filmed in 16:9 so that it was somewhat future-proofed.

The biggest problem is that the CGI was not rendered in HD and worse, it no longer exists. It would have be recreated, much like they'd have to do for late DS9 and most of Voyager. I could see this happening for those Star Trek shows (as there's a lot of money at stake) but not for B5.

The best we can likely hope for is an HD upscale, like what Farscape got.
 

benjipwns

Banned
I enjoyed the new Star Trek movie while recognizing what I was watching was not Star Trek.

The fans loved the space battles and the explosions and the lens flare. They did not love the characters or the ideas -- because new Star Trek doesn't have any.
The space battle was better in the previous movie which has almost the same basic plot.
 
The fans loved the space battles and the explosions and the lens flare. They did not love the characters or the ideas -- because new Star Trek doesn't have any.
WTF are you on about? People liked the movie because Kirk's cockiness, Uhura's firmness and not easily falling for Kirk's charm, Spock's stubborness and wit, but also his anguish and vulnerability, Bone's loyalty to his friend, Chekov's innocent charm, and just the overall chemistry and humour of the main cast. The new Star Trek is nothing if not liked specifically for it's characters.

A movie like Battleship has explosions and lens flare, it was a complete bomb. You're condescending point holds no value at all.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
WTF are you on about? People liked the movie because Kirk's cockiness, Uhura's firmness and not easily falling for Kirk's charm, Spock's stubborness and wit, but also his anguish and vulnerability, and the overall chemistry and humour of the main cast. The new Star Trek is nothing if not liked specifically for it's characters.
I don't think I've heard anyone defend the characters from nuTrek until now.

It's not that they're bad or anything. They're just so empty.

(Oh hey, Sulu knows how to fence! Remember that one episode from the Original Series? See, we watched Star Trek too!)
 

Suairyu

Banned
I actually really need to sit down and watch Babylon 5 one day. I remember being aware of it as a young kid but that's about it. Didn't watch DS9 either until I was much older, and fell in love.

Probably should watch Farscape sometime, too. Watched the pilot and maybe half of the first season as it aired but lost interest. I'm guessing that like with every plot-arc driven sci fi series ever, the first season is the least interesting and something to be 'gotten through'.
 

DrForester

Kills Photobucket
In fairness, if you watch TOS, no one but Kirk, McCoy, and Spock have much of a character. Scotty was a supporting role, and the other 3 were more just recurring extras.
 

maharg

idspispopd
In fairness, if you watch TOS, no one but Kirk, McCoy, and Spock have much of a character. Scotty was a supporting role, and the other 3 were more just recurring extras.

And even they don't really have much. You really have to get to the movies before anyone has any kind of growth or development. For the run of the series they are flat archetypes with a great camaraderie.

I've just decided, at this point, that people who accuse Trek 2009 of being un-Trek are just largely willing to dismiss what the original Star Trek actually was in favour of looking at it through a TNG-tinted lens. It was largely an adventure-driven show with some really ham fisted big ideas thrown in, as healthy a dose of action as the budget allowed, and not a lot of nuance at all. As a long time fan who's grown to love TOS above all the other series, I like Trek 2009 as Trek and not just as an action flick.
 
I've just decided, at this point, that people who accuse Trek 2009 of being un-Trek are just largely willing to dismiss what the original Star Trek actually was in favour of looking at it through a TNG-tinted lens. It was largely an adventure-driven show with some really ham fisted big ideas thrown in, as healthy a dose of action as the budget allowed, and not a lot of nuance at all. As a long time fan who's grown to love TOS above all the other series, I like Trek 2009 as Trek and not just as an action flick.

Can't agree with that - sure, the execution of TOS may have been somewhat ham-fisted, but that doesn't negate the effect of those big ideas, and they were the primary reason why TOS was always my favourite Trek growing up. It's the same reason I love Twilight Zone and Outer Limits, because I love speculative science fiction and that's one thing TOS really did very well. I'm fine with Trek 2009 being an action film, and as an action film it's far more preferable than the awkward, action-heavy TNG films, but it's a big let down when it comes to the science fiction side of thing. TOS may have been low budget, camp and cheesy, but it almost always had an intriguing science fiction story to keep me interested. Trek 2009 has a dumb time travel plot and red matter, to which they give the barest of explanations. It just doesn't cut it as a science fiction film and doesn't feel like Trek, to me, or what I want Trek to be. I hope the sequel can put a bit more of the science back into science fiction, but I'm not getting my hopes up and will be entirely unsurprised if it turns out to be another lens flare-heavy action film.

Monumental said:
WTF are you on about? People liked the movie because Kirk's cockiness, Uhura's firmness and not easily falling for Kirk's charm, Spock's stubborness and wit, but also his anguish and vulnerability, Bone's loyalty to his friend, Chekov's innocent charm, and just the overall chemistry and humour of the main cast.

This reminds me how much I disliked the Uhura character in that film. They made a point of building her up to be strong, confident and independent, only to have her do nothing of importance other than comfort Spock. And Spock himself? Ugh. I greatly prefer TOS Spock, who denied his Human heritage and immersed himself in what it is to be Vulcan, but through his experiences on the Enterprise and his friendships with Kirk & McCoy, he learns to accept his Human qualities. In Trek 2009, his Human side is constantly manifesting itself as a simmering, barely contained rage, and the end result is a much more dislikeable version of the character, in my opinion.
 
It was largely an adventure-driven show with some really ham fisted big ideas thrown in, as healthy a dose of action as the budget allowed, and not a lot of nuance at all. As a long time fan who's grown to love TOS above all the other series, I like Trek 2009 as Trek and not just as an action flick.

I dunno, I like a good shatner double-axe handle as much as the next guy, but my favourite stuff when watching tos were(and are) things like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toG6aSQFF7Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eXB1Yj05Fw

And stuff like kirk/mccoy in his cabin in balance of terror ("everyone looks at me" conversation), or the "no such thing as the unknown" speech in corbomite manoeuvre(can't find clips of these).
 

maharg

idspispopd
I dunno, I like a good shatner double-axe handle as much as the next guy, but my favourite stuff when watching tos were(and are) things like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toG6aSQFF7Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eXB1Yj05Fw

And stuff like kirk/mccoy in his cabin in balance of terror ("everyone looks at me" conversation), or the "no such thing as the unknown" speech in corbomite manoeuvre(can't find clips of these).

And that's fine. But don't try to pretend every episode was some amazing mind blowing paragon of 60s SF, because they weren't. Trek is a lot of things to a lot of people. It's obvious which parts they ran with when they made TNG, but it's not the only thing there.
 
And that's fine. But don't try to pretend every episode was some amazing mind blowing paragon of 60s SF, because they weren't. Trek is a lot of things to a lot of people. It's obvious which parts they ran with when they made TNG, but it's not the only thing there.

I never said it was, but that was what it was supposed to be, what Roddenbery apparently intended it to be. It failed a lot of course when it came to the morality tale aspect, or oft times didn't seem to bother(even in a classic like Devil in the Dark, I was a bit uneasy with Kirk's early dismissal of Spock's desire not to kill the "creature" because of the importance of the pergium).

ST09 didn't try at all, and you say it's calling to a different aspect? I suppose that's fair, as the movies have often missed that aspect of Trek in any event. TOS only really went for it with I and V, and next gen never really went for it at all(maybe insurrection, but that thing's so dire I haven't watched it since the cinema, so my memory isn't great).

I guess my big worry isn't the film itself, which was okayish as an action film, but as to whether 09's style shapes treks cinematic/televisual future.
 

JohnDonut

Banned
You know, I think the Prime Directive was made because of Kirk, because I never remember it coming up as an issue in any of the old movies or the original series...
 
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