Yeah that sounds like a good time.
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The High-end VR Discussion Thread (HTC Vive, Oculus Rift, Playstation VR)
- Thread starter Cartman86
- Start date
Yeah that sounds like a good time.
I was under the impression the GPU excelled at that sort of thing. They did tracking on "a small fraction of an SPU" back in the day, and I thought SPU work translated well to GPGPU.
Sorry, but the rest of your response can basically be summed up as, "lolconsole," which isn't really an argument, and I think the underlying sentiment that real CPUs scoff at loads like this is undermined by the substantial CPU requirements for PCVR. Also, I'm not sure why you assume the PS4's laughable CPU would be any more overburdened than its laughable GPU already is.
It isn't undermined by anything. There are many factors that drive the "substantial" CPU requirement (not sure if I'd call a $200 cpu from 2014 substantial). Windows overhead, DX11 overhead, single thread performance due to PC games being less multi-core optimized, running games at 90 fps instead of 60, etc.
The minimum spec CPU, an i5-4590, is not going to be 100% utilized in current VR games. I'd be surprised if it was even 50% on average. I'm sure there are people with vives and rifts who have cpus quite a bit below the "required" level who are doing just fine.
PS4/Xbone CPUs are extremely weak compared to their GPUs. So yes, they are lolconsole
Palmer Luckey said:
Since few if any pc games saturate 4 cores on the CPU, and the stuff being done is trivial according to oculus, I reiterate my previous "why would they do it on the GPU?"
Man, I'm sorry to hear this. Please don't give up on VR until you try the Vive though. It is truly incredible. I just got mine on Tuesday and it has far exceeded my expectations especially because of its fantastic launch library which is in my opinion the best I have ever experienced by some margin.
I quickly made an AltspaceVR event for tonight. It starts at 9:00PM CDT/10:00PM EST/7:00PM PST. I made it public because I don't believe you can input a URL on the VR headsets to access a private one. If someone knows whether it's possible, I can change it back to private.
Here is the URL: https://account.altvr.com/events/387765348247535619
Here is the URL: https://account.altvr.com/events/387765348247535619
Do you know if there's an easy way to login into Altspace through SteamVR? I created an account on their website in anticipation of my Vive with a crazy password that my Password App generated before I knew that Altspace would be on SteamVR. Then when I was trying to access Altspace through Steam I couldn't login because copying my password from my phone was such a PITA and it wasn't possible for me to copy and paste from my computer. Any tips?
Write it down on in notepad in Windows and switch to desktop view in SteamVR until you finish?
And I really hope Sony fixes this, by allowing the use of two cameras, if an owner feels inclined to purchase an extra.
I was watching a game on the Giant Bomb Vive Stream yesterday where the player was warping all around a virtual world, turning in all different directions, pulling items out of a virtual backpack and it was very compelling. I think not having at the least 360 degree tracking, would severely limit the types of experiences that could be created.
I wouldn't think it would be that hard to just allow the use of two cameras. Theoretically, it might increase the software that is available as now all the room scale developers could port over their stuff.
It's not a matter of just allowing it. The PS camera connects to a special auxiliary port and the PS4 has only one. So they will need to:
a) Release a new camera model that can connect to USB
b) Release an aux to usb converter
C) Have 2 ports on the PS4K and push that as an incentive to upgrade
They will end up with a fragmented install base in any of the above scenarios, which will discourage development tailored for it. Besides, the cabling required for the rear camera makes it even less likely that it would gain any adoption.
I think gen 1 PSVR will remain predominantly front facing, unfortunately. They will have to make do with 360 degree head tracking
Just an idea, but couldn't they make the cords on all the new cameras like a Y cable, where one end is the camera and the other end is a port for the other camera?
But, yeah, you're probably right. Likely it's just wishful thinking and won't happen, but man I really want those 360 degree experiences. I think in time, PSVR may seem limited because it doesn't have it.
After some time with the Vive now (and previous experience with DK1, DK2 and CV1), I have to say that solid room-scale HMD tracking regardless of what you do - whether it is spin around 360* and duck under enemy fire in Space Pirate Trainer, lie down on the floor to line up a shot in Minigolf, or just just jump in the air in Audioshield - is a massive qualitative difference in and of itself, even before getting into tracked VR controllers (which together with the solid 360° tracking make it revolutionary, and I normally don't use that word). More later.
InaudibleWhispa
Member
Did you try it at an event like EGXRezzed? If so, you were using the DK2 not the consumer rift.
cleveridea
Member
Wow. People are totally right when they say that you you have to try VR to get it.
I went from "meh will wait on higher resolution sets to eliminate the screendoor effect, maybe 2017 then" to INJECT THIS IN MY VEINS RIGHT NOW
Happened to come across the Gear VR in Best Buy while walking towards gaming section. Put it on. Wow its amazing.
I thought "oh its $99 how good could that be, its just a fancier Google Cardboard made with plastic". Wrong. It looks incredible. It felt like for $100 I had my own personal imax theatre.
To those that think its like 3D TV - I love 3D with the right games, most dont need it but some like New Vegas look incredible - it looks real.
The different with VR is that it doesnt just look real it FEELS real. Having it properly track your head makes your brain truly believe its seeing this stuff since your body's movement sensors match the headset. Also had that "real life seems weird at first" after taking off the device too since you forget where you are in the world. The real world kinda zoomed into effect as my brain remembered "oh yeah your in best buy" and re-oriented itself.
As luck would have it I have an S6 Edge (love that phone) so I picked it up since its only $100. Wow, amazing. I can see huge potential for things like Social interaction, and I think this stuff has tremendous appeal to non gamers such as recording and sharing travels and important moments (weddings etc)
I had goosebumps first time I used this device. I can already tell I want the full VR experience bad. And in particular I want full room tracking like the Vive. As of now it seems Oculus has more "real" games, but as I understand it it will be getting controllers and room scale VR. Do we know how long and how well its expected to perform versus Vive ie tech wise? If it at least matches the Vive techwise (controllers & room space) then I like the idea of the lower entry price point since I can wait for these improvements. But I definitely think room scale VR is the ultimate goal.
I went from "meh will wait on higher resolution sets to eliminate the screendoor effect, maybe 2017 then" to INJECT THIS IN MY VEINS RIGHT NOW
Happened to come across the Gear VR in Best Buy while walking towards gaming section. Put it on. Wow its amazing.
I thought "oh its $99 how good could that be, its just a fancier Google Cardboard made with plastic". Wrong. It looks incredible. It felt like for $100 I had my own personal imax theatre.
To those that think its like 3D TV - I love 3D with the right games, most dont need it but some like New Vegas look incredible - it looks real.
The different with VR is that it doesnt just look real it FEELS real. Having it properly track your head makes your brain truly believe its seeing this stuff since your body's movement sensors match the headset. Also had that "real life seems weird at first" after taking off the device too since you forget where you are in the world. The real world kinda zoomed into effect as my brain remembered "oh yeah your in best buy" and re-oriented itself.
As luck would have it I have an S6 Edge (love that phone) so I picked it up since its only $100. Wow, amazing. I can see huge potential for things like Social interaction, and I think this stuff has tremendous appeal to non gamers such as recording and sharing travels and important moments (weddings etc)
I had goosebumps first time I used this device. I can already tell I want the full VR experience bad. And in particular I want full room tracking like the Vive. As of now it seems Oculus has more "real" games, but as I understand it it will be getting controllers and room scale VR. Do we know how long and how well its expected to perform versus Vive ie tech wise? If it at least matches the Vive techwise (controllers & room space) then I like the idea of the lower entry price point since I can wait for these improvements. But I definitely think room scale VR is the ultimate goal.
serversurfer
Member
"Because the GPU is better at it," is all the reason I'd personally need, but I suppose it's ultimately a design decision. To me, jobs should default to the processor that can execute them most efficiently, so my question to you would normally be, "Why are we doing this on the CPU instead?"
That said, I realize that on PC, jobs don't magically appear on the GPU, hence my original question; does the overhead involved with getting the job to the GPU and waiting for the results turn what would normally be a win in to a loss?
I'm pretty sure PS4 can do heterogeneous queuing, so any code compiled for the GPU does indeed get shoved directly in to the ACEs without any involvement from the CPU whatsoever and the results are quietly written to a shared memory location. So the CPU knows there's an address it can query at any time to get the headset's current position, but that address is being populated by a black box; the CPU doesn't know or care whether that value is being refreshed by the GPU or a punchcard reader.
Vanishing Realms is incredible. The combat is so much fun. My first encounter with a skeleton, I had no weapon and he was standing in front of the entrance to the shop holding a sword. So I goaded him to the middle of the room and stood wide open so he could slice me. He wound up for a huge swing - I ducked under it, then stepped forward to get around him and ran into the room. Came back with a sword, parried a few times, then slammed him in the face and killed him.
It was all so incredibly rewarding, because it wasn't canned animation. I actually did the stuff. Later on when you get the bow and arrow, you feel like such a huge badass fighting archers and magicians. Stand there with my bow out and taut, wait for them to throw a fireball, casually step aside and let it miss then hit them in the face with the arrow. So fucking cool.
It was all so incredibly rewarding, because it wasn't canned animation. I actually did the stuff. Later on when you get the bow and arrow, you feel like such a huge badass fighting archers and magicians. Stand there with my bow out and taut, wait for them to throw a fireball, casually step aside and let it miss then hit them in the face with the arrow. So fucking cool.
cleveridea
Member
Game looks really cool. The nice thing about this new world of VR is how indie style developers can get in, thanks to things like steam early access, and release a game without cutting edge AAA game style productions values. I loved this article on the game:
http://www.polygon.com/2016/4/5/11367332/vanishing-realms-scary
The way they introduce the first skeleton really is kind of scary. It looks like a grey alien and it's peaking into windows at you and always seems like it's about to pop out, but never does.
However, I would say my experience with the game thusfar has been the exact opposite. I feel incredibly empowered. Once I got my sword(s!) and shield and bow and arrow, I felt like I was a messenger of death come to destroy the wicked. I can't stress enough how awesome the bow and arrow feel. You feel like such a badass when you use it.
I prefer to dual wield swords myself.
Pretty much came to the same conclusion as this from impressions on both systems before the units came out.
The laser tracking seems much better on the Vive than the camera tracking on the Rift and I think that makes the Vive better overall.
cleveridea
Member
This is the impression I got from using the Gear VR, I didnt want to buy a non tracked controller for it - I just ordered a Vive to get the full experience with the 3D tracked controllers and room scale
When I tried the Vincent van Gogh - Night Cafe app for Gear VR it looked amazing. When I used the "swipe touchpad to move forward" I immediately felt nausea and motion sick - presumably because the movement isnt matching my bodies feeling of motion. After about 30 second of this, I felt like I could actually be physically sick and the feeling only slowly subsided over a period of 10-15 minutes
prior to this, games without such a movement mechanic were flawless and I never felt even a hint of motion sickness.
this could be a barrier for people if their first try of VR is with one of these compromise solutions like gear vr, they experience motion sickness and then never want to put on a VR system ever again.
moniker
Member
What's getting me most hyped about Vive right now is VR veterans like yourself and Krejlooc singing its praises. Not having tried any headset yet, room scale VR with tracked controllers just makes so much more sense than seated, front facing VR to me.
irrotational
Member
I had/have both Vive and Oculus pre-ordered, and always had the intention to keep the oculus (and sell the Vive to someone at cost - not trying to profiteer).
Indeed I have already agreed to sell on my Vive to someone....but the more I read the more I regret it.
To be clear - I mean I wish Oculus had touch at launch. I'm less fussed about room-scale as such, but hand tracking really seems to bring it alive.
I keep trying not to be too short sighted, as we're talking about a couple of months of difference in timing, plus facebook money, the slight headstart in brand awareness, and the store with hot scloosies might tip the balance longer term.
Hey ho - will be interesting to see what the VR world looks like in 2017
EDIT - of course all of this hand wringing is completely virtual as neither company can actually ship me a headset...
Indeed I have already agreed to sell on my Vive to someone....but the more I read the more I regret it.
To be clear - I mean I wish Oculus had touch at launch. I'm less fussed about room-scale as such, but hand tracking really seems to bring it alive.
I keep trying not to be too short sighted, as we're talking about a couple of months of difference in timing, plus facebook money, the slight headstart in brand awareness, and the store with hot scloosies might tip the balance longer term.
Hey ho - will be interesting to see what the VR world looks like in 2017
EDIT - of course all of this hand wringing is completely virtual as neither company can actually ship me a headset...
I Wanna Be The Guy
U-S-A! U-S-A! U-S-A!
That's exactly where I tried it.
D
Deleted member 10571
Unconfirmed Member
So after having (seen?) proper experiences with both sitting VR on Oculus and room scale on Vive, where do you guys think PSVR will settle in on that front? On one hand, it supports Move controllers out of the box, on the other hand it also has to be working with the regular controller.
BUT that controller also has way better tracking possibilities than a regular ol' Xbox controller.
BUT BUT Sony tends to just forget about hardware, so will Move even play a role in the first place?
BUT BUT BUT Since the camera is a must for VR, they might as well take move controls for granted, right?
Shit's confusing!
BUT that controller also has way better tracking possibilities than a regular ol' Xbox controller.
BUT BUT Sony tends to just forget about hardware, so will Move even play a role in the first place?
BUT BUT BUT Since the camera is a must for VR, they might as well take move controls for granted, right?
Shit's confusing!
The high-end VR devices will rock your world.
It'll line up with oculus touch most likely. sitting experiences (obviously) and standing 180/270 degree experiences with motion controls, with games adding in a fallback to controller modes for those PSVR/OR users that don't have move/touch.
That'll still be most games, because devs will find it difficult to ignore the size of the OR+PSVR userbase, no matter how much they love lighthouses and 360 degree tracking and roomscale.
You mean the porn industry will be all over this?
Dreamwriter
Member
PSVR can't do true room-scale, not without support for multiple cameras. Now, motion controls, that's different - they are packing Moves with the PSVR bundle, and they've shown off games that use them.
A new benchmark for handling transportation in VR?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-T3o1DWa3O4
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-T3o1DWa3O4
Question: What exactly constitutes as true room scale? You can most definitely move around with the PSVR but to what extent you can do so is unclear but it's most likely not Vive tier.
I'd say that room scale as we talk about it at this point in time at the minimum constitutes being able to locate a HMD and tracked controllers in the full extent of some room-sized volume of space, regardless of orientation or relative position.
Very cool, but the best ive seen so far is Unseen Diplomacy. It basically determines a rectangle within your play space and randomly generates the level based on that.
If you havent seen the game, check it out. It made me super excited for what will come in the next few years once people start copying these techniques.
D
Deleted member 10571
Unconfirmed Member
Yeah. Also, the PS camera has two lenses and captures in 3d, so in theory (apart from walking out of camera range and completely obstructing the lights) there shouldn't be many problems, I'd think.
Hellsing321
Member
If you turn around with your back to the camera your body would block the move controllers making it impossible to interact with anything behind you.
It doesn't matter if it's faster on the GPU.
Here is a crappy analogy. You need to go to the store to get bread. It's 1:30 and you need to get it done by 2:00. The store is 5 miles away. You can either take your honda civic parked out front, or your enzo ferrari that's in a parking garage half a block away. Sure, the total time will be lower if you use the ferrari, but why bother? You'll make it back in plenty of time with the civic.
It being faster on the GPU is not a good enough reason to spend the effort to do it. Like I said before, the GPU on a modern pc is more likely to be fully utilized than the CPU. Why would I offload something to the device with no extra capacity when there's idle cpu cores right here?
BTW, you said before
You might want to confirm exactly what is meant by that. PSVR is 120hz, meaning it has 8.3ms between images sent to the headset (actual frame rendering spans two refreshes, but the reprojection must be done every refresh). If reprojection and tracking take 1-2ms per frame, that's 12-25% of the GPU's time on just that. Doesn't sound very efficient compared to 2% of 1 CPU core with oculus.
honestly I think we need to redefine the terms. Room scale makes people think they need a ton of space - literally a room. Yet the minimum size is 'only' 2m x 1.5m - about 6.5ft x 5ft. Doable by a lot more people than the 15ft x 15ft demo rooms Valve has been using. And most games will scale down to that.
Personally I think 'room scale' could be redefined as larger rooms where you have space to walk around relatively freely. Eg 3x4m or higher. The smaller areas like 1.5m x 2m are more like standing and spinning 360 degrees with some capacity to wave your arms around and maybe step to one side before bumping into your bounds.
Dreamwriter
Member
The headset as well wouldn't be tracked if your back was to the camera, as its lights are only on the front and sides. Admittedly, your back would have to be straight to the camera.
reprojections takes 0.5ms running as an async compute job on the GPU. See here
https://youtu.be/3RNbZpcfAhE?t=653
also worth noting that as it is an async job, it is likely to run without removing 0.5ms of time from your own work - it should be able to slot in between during idle times.
Assuming that the you can walk around with the PSVR and use the move controllers, albeit in a more limited space, would it be considered room scale or not? As the poster below mentioned, the minimum size is 2mx1.5m and there's this article I googled up which seems to show that the PSVR is capable of slightly more than that.
http://www.polygon.com/2016/3/17/11254170/playstation-vr-vive-rift-tracking-area
PSVR will fall over if you need to track the controller while you're facing away from the camera though. The move or DS4 controllers will easily be obscured by your body.
Realistically you're limited to standing + 180 degree turning from side to side. So while the volume tracked might be ok, you don't have full freedom of movement. And that can make a big difference, although in many cases you can design around it - eg the Job Simulator guys are redesigning the work areas so that they don't put anything behind the player for Oculus Touch and PSVR.
Oh I see the problem. Still, even with that restriction, the Sony guy from the article states you can still move around so I don't think you're limited to standing.
In your opinion, do you think that with some software tweaks and by placing a 2nd PS camera behind, will it allow for 360 degree movement or is it not that simple?
We come back to the 'technically what is possible' vs 'what is the likely reality'. It is a similar situation for Oculus.
The limitation for PS4 is that there is only one camera port, and it isn't a standard USB port. Technically it might be possible for Sony to make an adapter, or to ship a new camera that plugs into the PS4 USB ports (they're usb 3, should be enough). But it seems unlikely that they'd bother.
For Oculus Touch, it will ship with a second camera - they've demoed it like that. But they've only officially demoed it with two cameras in front, set up like a pair of stereo speakers. This gives a wider tracked area and reduced occlusion for the touch controllers, but obviously you still have the problem of blocking the controllers if you turn around.
People have tested having cameras in opposite corners like the Vive setup, and it works. But Oculus are not officially supporting that layout. If they insist on pushing the 'forward facing' pair of cameras, then most developers will support that because thats what consumers will be using.
If they go that way, then the sheer volume of PSVR + Oculus Touch users using a forward facing setup will mean devs have to support that. I don't see it being a big deal really - you'll still get teleportation mechanics, but they'll have to support rotation (like The Gallery does) so you don't need to turn all the way round. Vive will still be better in that regard, but I think both Oculus Touch and PSVR will still be able to provide a compelling experience.
Thanks for the info man. I really appreciate it.
Still, one thing I'm curious about room scale VR is that if you rotate 360 degrees, won't the cables coil around your body or wrap around your leg or something?
Yeah. You have to learn how to get around it basically.
D
Deleted member 10571
Unconfirmed Member
Yup that's what I meant by obstructing the lights, that's an issue that can cause problems, even if the Move controllers track somewhat okay-ish even without camera contact.
Nope, the headset's safe
cleveridea
Member
Yes definitely. Its almost scary what potential it has. For example, with VR its possible not just to have a point of view of any one, but any THING. If you catch my drift.
cleveridea
Member
So can anyone who tried both comment on which of Vive or Rift has the best headset (ie ignore the controllers and the room scale VR, both of which should come to Rift at some point later this year)
One of the podcasts I watched had someone find the vive uncomfortable due to the straps going over his ears whereas he said the oculus had designed the strap deliberaly to go above his ear and was therefore more comforable.
It appears to me the specs look pretty similar - eg FOV, resolution - is that what its like in practice?
One of the podcasts I watched had someone find the vive uncomfortable due to the straps going over his ears whereas he said the oculus had designed the strap deliberaly to go above his ear and was therefore more comforable.
It appears to me the specs look pretty similar - eg FOV, resolution - is that what its like in practice?
Dreamwriter
Member
They aren't officially supporting any two-camera layout yet at all - they've said right now they are only thinking about the setup you can buy today. They've said that in the future when the Oculus Touch comes out they may support an opposing-camera setup as one of the default options, particularly if a lot of developers use that, though a number of developers are using the offset-camera layout due to Oculus using that for their early demos.