It will be. I'm saying that they rather aren't really addressing the occlusion issue at all with their multiple camera setup. I suspect this is precisely why touch isn't out - they still are hoping to stumble upon a shape that solves occlusion the best. Alan Yates said valve experimented with designs like that for a while before realizing it wasn't worth going down.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
The High-end VR Discussion Thread (HTC Vive, Oculus Rift, Playstation VR)
- Thread starter Cartman86
- Start date
It will be. I'm saying that they rather aren't really addressing the occlusion issue at all with their multiple camera setup. I suspect this is precisely why touch isn't out - they still are hoping to stumble upon a shape that solves occlusion the best. Alan Yates said valve experimented with designs like that for a while before realizing it wasn't worth going down.
Now that many people have an Oculus Rift DK2, CV1, GearVR, or HTC Vive, we should hold a party in AltSpace sometime this weekend. That way many of us can "get together" in social VR space. It'd be neat to meet many of you guys "face to face"
anybody down with starting a topic to coordinate?
anybody down with starting a topic to coordinate?
Wrestlemania
Banned
I thought it had been proven that the tracking volume with a single camera was actually pretty significant?
http://uploadvr.com/oculus-rift-cv1-one-camera-room-scale/
Not a test with Touch, but you can see how another camera in an opposing position would help a lot with 360 room scale tracking on the controllers.
Cameras in opposing positions isn't how Oculus is saying you should use dual cameras. They are suggesting this layout to touch devs:
The second camera isn't intended to solve occlusion issues, it's intended to increase the horizontal range of the tracking volume.
two points to that
1) You need quite a lot more room than Vive for a similar tracked area - you want a good 3 ft in front of the camera before the cone is wide enough for general tracking. So putting those in opposing corners could be more difficult in many rooms than the vive - where the lighthouses can look straight down (when tilted down)
2) We still don't know if Oculus will support opposing cameras. 'technically possible' doesn't help if the official platform owner doesn't support that layout. You'll get some developers supporting it with options, but they'll also have to design around a 180 degree forward facing layout for the majority of users set up the official way. That will severly dampen any 360 degree tracking for lots of games.
The worst thing is the silence from oculus. I'm sure they're figuring out the least worst setup to get as close to a 360 tracking setup as they can. If not, then 180 degrees will be ok until CV2 - and they'd better nail it then. I'd be totally up for switching to oculus for a second gen headset if they nail tracking - most of the rest of the headset seems on par or superior to Vive. But the tracking is such a big element right now it is difficult to ignore
Cameras in opposing positions isn't how Oculus is saying you should use dual cameras. They are suggesting this layout to touch devs:
The second camera isn't intended to solve occlusion issues, it's intended to increase the horizontal range of the tracking volume.
So if you turn around, goodbye hand tracking? I'm not buying VR until later in the year, but if this is as good as it gets with the Touch controllers, then HTC just won themselves a customer.
The touch controllers have a ring of IR LEDs that go all around the hand so that, if you turn around, there are IR LEDs on the back of the ring to be tracked. That's their solution to occlusion.
Now, in the above set up, if you turn around so your back faces the cameras, then hold the touch controllers to your chest, then yes, you'll lose tracking.
ashbash159
Member
The above is how PSVR works, too
What's the difference between PSVR having one camera and Oculus having two (sensors) in the future?
What's the difference between PSVR having one camera and Oculus having two (sensors) in the future?
Likely a wider tracking area on oculus rift as you'd place the cameras further apart than the stereo pair in the ps camera. Also I think the oculus cameras have a wider doc as standard anyway.
But from a 180 front facing situation, functionally they would be similar.
It's something to consider when you factor in likely volumes of Oculus Touch + PSVR vs Vive. Could be enough of the former to encourage devs to focus more on front facing motion control than 360. Certainly will be enough to ensure that arrangement is optimised for
Zalusithix
Member
The above is showing two forward facing cameras which has reduced occlusion and increased horizontal coverage vs a single camera like the PSVR. Beyond that, there's no reason that Oculus can't support two opposing cameras to give full 360 degree occlusion resistance. They wouldn't have quite the same coverage that the lighthouses do, but it would still work on a technical level.
Single camera systems like PSVR can never support 360 degree experiences with tracked controllers, nor roomscale. Not without many occlusion issues at least. As such, games for that platform will be designed around forward facing VR only.
Yeah. I wasn't a backer. It was a big risk to back that thing given how motion controls were up in the air still.
I'll buy every episode even at full price. They deserve payoff for the big risk they took.
moniker
Member
I have a feeling that larger releases (AAA if you will) will target the lowest common denominator, but that Vive will get more experimental and (hopefully) innovate stuff in addition.
It's weird how all these sites reviewed the headsets themselves, but none of the games. Not even the biggest Oculus Exclusives like Chronos have reviews up. You'd think at least IGN would review some of the bigger launch titles for both headsets, especially since they've had the Vives for a while.
The Elite
BOSS
I guess they don't have many people dedicated to them. I am not sure the traffic is that great for VR yet. They could have a staff of two dedicated two or three dedicated to VR right now.
They did get a Lucky's Tale review out.
SmiteOfHand
Member
To be fair they haven't spawned any OT's either. At least I haven't seen any.
Yeah, though I think the larger reason for this is that so few of us on the site actually have the hardware in hand. I was going to create a Chronos OT, but... for who? With hardware in such short supply it seems like launch software discussion is better left in the HMD threads.
Chairmanchuck
Member
Pollen:
Dreams-Visions
Member
Hey bros.
Audioshield for President of these united states.
Audioshield for President of these united states.
Pollen:
Bummed that Vive isn't at launch, but at least it looks like when it comes to Vive, it'll come with full motion controls
Chairmanchuck
Member
Another thing about the Steam vs. Oculus Home thing. According to the Virtual Desktop dev, Valve isnt too happy that he is providing keys for Oculus Home:
https://www.reddit.com/r/oculus/com...f_my_efforts_to_get_oculus_store_keys/d1uyxgy
https://www.reddit.com/r/oculus/com...f_my_efforts_to_get_oculus_store_keys/d1uyxgy
Where?
Seems like if you are facing away from the cameras it will be quite easy to have no sensors in view of the cameras, especially if one is blocked by your body.
As long as they don't block it, then it's all cool as far as I'm concerned. Valve can be as unhappy as they want if they don't actually do anything about it.
Sure. Just let me know which room to meet you in.
Cameras in opposing positions isn't how Oculus is saying you should use dual cameras. They are suggesting this layout to touch devs:
The second camera isn't intended to solve occlusion issues, it's intended to increase the horizontal range of the tracking volume.
Not true according to Palmer Luckey:
https://www.reddit.com/r/oculus/comments/3pnkfi/preview_job_simulator_on_oculus_touch_office/cw86aw3
Zalusithix
Member
Essentially two front facing corner cameras have slightly higher occlusion resistance when dealing with front facing situations at the expense of having considerably lower occlusion resistance for rear facing situations when compared to an opposing corner setup. For something close to 100% resistant, you'd want all 4 corners.
I do but I won't be able to until tonight or this weekend
I Wanna Be The Guy
U-S-A! U-S-A! U-S-A!
I just tried VR for the first time. I was not impressed. At all. It was The Assembly on Oculus. First of all when I first put the headset on, this thing wasn't comfortable at all especially on my glasses. I got used to it but the comfort level with my glasses is not good enough and I wouldn't want lon play sessions on this. The screen quality was much worse than I was expecting, though again after adjusting it wasn't so bad, and at the bottom there was a little gap so I could see the real world. The headset did not cover the entirety of my vision. The whole thing just felt like......a screen on my face. I didn't feel in the world and it wasn't this super immersive thing it's cracked up to be.
It doesn't help that the actual game here was pretty poor. Considering it's going for immersion, it's a strange decision to have my character sitting in a chair in first person, but have there be no body when I look down. The parts of this demo that were actually interactive were really awkward too. Hold a button down then move your head to decide where to move. Very poor. At best just looking around was kind of neat. At these prices I need more than neat. Not a good first impression. Frankly I was more impressed the first time I saw a 3D movie or played a game with 3D on 3DS. I know this post isn't going to go down well, but I'm sorry this was my genuine first impression.
It doesn't help that the actual game here was pretty poor. Considering it's going for immersion, it's a strange decision to have my character sitting in a chair in first person, but have there be no body when I look down. The parts of this demo that were actually interactive were really awkward too. Hold a button down then move your head to decide where to move. Very poor. At best just looking around was kind of neat. At these prices I need more than neat. Not a good first impression. Frankly I was more impressed the first time I saw a 3D movie or played a game with 3D on 3DS. I know this post isn't going to go down well, but I'm sorry this was my genuine first impression.
What do you mean "where"? Right there, on the ring-shaped ring. It's covered in IR LEDs.
Palmer Luckey also said that traditional controllers were shitty for VR, then launched with an Xbox controller. He's using double speak there. Yes, two front facing cameras have fewer occlusion problems than one. No, two front facing cameras does not solve their occlusion problems. This is why the constellation rings have IR LEDs on the back, and why their headset itself has IR LEDs on the back as well.
Then something is very wrong somewhere, configuration, your glasses, settings.., or you're somehow just not compatible (it happens). Proper functional VR does not feel like a screen on your face, period.
I obviously meant where on the back. There are no IR LEDs on the back of the controller. They are around the outside and on the front. If you are standing facing away from the cameras, it is very easy to imagine angles where no sensors are visible to the camera.
What is the doublespeak here? You assume oculus intends to support standing 360 with touch. "Their occlusion problem" is "fine interactions" in standing 180 with touch. I think oculus is discouraging developers from having users fully turn around in touch games. Standing/sitting 180 (plus additional head turning which would require the rear facing HMD LEDs) is what I expect from the majority of games on the oculus store.
Croatoan
They/Them A-10 Warthog
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-T3o1DWa3O4
Open world Vive character controller that Mixes Room scale and Controller movement. No teleportation. Only body used for turning to limit motion sickness.
This is exactly what I want
. I think if he slowed the character down some with controller movement (To match his real world gait) he could remove more motion sickness
Open world Vive character controller that Mixes Room scale and Controller movement. No teleportation. Only body used for turning to limit motion sickness.
This is exactly what I want
. I think if he slowed the character down some with controller movement (To match his real world gait) he could remove more motion sicknessserversurfer
Member
Well, I'm not sure that's a safe assumption at all. Seems to me the safer assumption would be that if someone were interested in having the tracking capabilities of the Vive, they'd have bought a Vive.
But it actually wasn't. RSP was comparing what came in the box and you and Durante felt that was unfair, and argued that if you complicated Rift's setup, it would be complicated too. While that may be true, it still doesn't change the fact that RSP had an easier time setting up their Rift.
Sounds like it'll mostly depend on the game and your hardware, just like always. Maybe they'll lock the 680 out of this title, but that'd be pretty lame of them since it's hitting the required performance. Hopefully Durante can fix it if they do. <3
I was under the impression the GPU excelled at that sort of thing. They did tracking on "a small fraction of an SPU" back in the day, and I thought SPU work translated well to GPGPU.
Sorry, but the rest of your response can basically be summed up as, "lolconsole," which isn't really an argument, and I think the underlying sentiment that real CPUs scoff at loads like this is undermined by the substantial CPU requirements for PCVR. Also, I'm not sure why you assume the PS4's laughable CPU would be any more overburdened than its laughable GPU already is.
I don't know much about the MTBF of tracking lasers, but isn't the motor the part of the hard drive which typically fails? I don't think a 60 Hz webcam is particularly expensive though.
I'll bet you a shiny nickel that my Camera outlives your Lighthouse.
Fair enough. I chose that one because the relative PPI was similar to what we're dealing with here. Do you have an example you feel is more suitable?
That does seem to be an improvement over the S3, yes. It'll be interesting to see whether Sony tweak their panel or stick with classic RGB like the N2. Both phone panels are similar vintage, so one assumes similar improvements are at least possible, if not likely. Krej mentioned shuffling the RGB layout to reduce jailbarring, for example.
Regardless, this doesn't have any bearing on the real issue here, which is that PenTile pixels ain't pixels. Someone made a pic:
But why? Do the lenses extend past the edges of the display? What's taking up space in the middle?
Yes, I understand the point he was trying to make, but he forgot to say, "room scale," and accidentally credited Sony rather than distracting from them.
Really? The camera was the feature I found most interesting. I hope folks come up with some clever uses for it. Is it stereo? How's the FOV?
Vive's tracking is marginal? That really surprises me. Any idea what the problem is? =/
If money is no object, the best thing would be to keep your PSVR and get PCVR too. Prolly Vive?
If you can only afford one, it's pretty much the standard PC/console debate, though Vive additionally offers room scale, if you have the space and the inclination. Rift will likely support room scale in some sense when Touch releases, but it won't be official and tracking coverage won't be quite as good as Vive. On the other hand, a lot of folks seem to think the Touch wands are pretty slick, so consider that as well.
Yeah, I just tried to find instructions and couldn't, so I guess it's a pain. lol Still, I'd be tempted to make a bigger hole than mess with all of those adapters
Yeah, I know it scales. Sorry, I was mostly asking about implementation details.
Yes, it's unambiguous, but you should read it again, because it doesn't say what you're claiming:
"Reprojection to fill in missed frames should be thought of as a last-resort safety net. Please DO NOT rely on reprojection to maintain framerate"
So as I said before:
"So here their advice is precisely the same as Oculus and Sony: 'Yes, ATW has the knock-on effect of compensating for dropped frames, but dont drop frames; dial stuff back instead.'"
DO NOT rely on reprojection to "maintain" frame rates, because that's not what it's for and that's not what it does. INSTEAD, drop res, and if shit gets too blurry to see, bump the res back up and use interleaving instead as it's a great safety net, thanks to the fact it provides a pretty good tradeoff.
I look forward to reading it. <3
Fair enough, but, "We can all just get in bed with $COMPANY!" isn't what I generally picture when people talk about openness.
Hmm. Are they just sitting too close? =/
VlaudTheImpaler
tl;dr
I wouldn't give up on VR till you try a Vive man. This is why it pisses me off that Oculus launched without proper motion controls and a room scale solution. First impressions are everything.
Zalusithix
Member
Yeah, nobody buying a Rift will be interested in having 360 degree capabilities with the Touch controllers down the line. /s C'mon now. These things exist beyond launch. There will be current owners who see what's available on the Vive and want to have the ability to do that without dropping another $800+. Later on when the Touch controllers are launched, people will be able to choose either set for the capabilities right from the get go.
That's because what was set ups were different in capability. Like I mentioned in my last post there, if you wanted to emulate the Rift's capabilities, you'd just slap the lighthouse down on the desk and call it a day. Right out of the box, like for like, they're virtually the same for hardware setup.
Croatoan
They/Them A-10 Warthog
Why a company thought the ability to turn around in VR with their motion controllers was not going to be popular is beyond me.
This is on Sony too. Forget roomscale, you cannot turn a circle while standing in one spot with Oculus touch or move controllers.
Monumentally stupid.
This is on Sony too. Forget roomscale, you cannot turn a circle while standing in one spot with Oculus touch or move controllers.
Monumentally stupid.
Well they're not mad he's providing oculus keys. It's because he's using Steam to do it rather than a 3rd party solution like everyone else that's offering free home keys. I wonder if you could abuse Steam by purchasing the game, activate it on home and then refund.
Turin Turambar
Member
I'm starting to think that Oculus is going forward with two forward facing cameras instead of two opposite cameras in an attempt to capture a wider audience, wider than just VR enthusiasts. Because it isn't the same to buy a device where you just put a little camera in your desk (people have computers in their desks!) than asking people mounting devices on the walls just to play games, or buying a big tripod as a permanent fixture of their room just for the new expensive gadget.
Which is a bit silly, because their price isn't low enough to capture a really wider audience than the Vive.
Which is a bit silly, because their price isn't low enough to capture a really wider audience than the Vive.
Croatoan
They/Them A-10 Warthog
Hopefully their size shrinks over time (lighthouses) and you can just throw "hide" them on bookcases and entertainment centers.
Ideally it shouldn't matter at what height they are place as long as they are above 3ft or something.
KratosEnergyDrink
Member
You are not alone. It's definitely not for everyone and technical VR is still immature. I think most early adopters are already tired if VR. But you should try Hive anyway it is by far the most immersive experience. Oculus is nice, PSVR/Gear VR are only interesting for half an our.
family_guy
Member
Personally games in the classic sense aren't what I'm interested in for VR. I want experiences that would transport me to real life places like a sporting event or something you'd see on National Geographic. Playing Wii-like motion control games or standard games at lower graphical quality isn't all that appealing to me.
Agree with you at how great the interior of that spaceship is. I was able to move around though. Like the left menu screen in the ship I was able to look behind it just fine and also peek out the windows to either side. My setup has the camera around four feet away from where i'm standing. The only time it goes wonky is when i'm facing away from the camera and around 5 feet or more away. I haven't tested how far i can go side to side because of furniture.
That, and the fact Oculus and Sony aren't shipping tracked controllers as standard are going to be one of the biggest hindrance for game design for VR in the near future. Peripherals struggle as is, peripherals of peripherals have a strong chance of struggling even more (although I'm not saying they're the same, I think there is going to be a much stronger pull for people to buy the tracked controllers, just not enough for it not have done reasonable harm to VR).
I think most would be playing RIGS, EVE: Valkyrie, and other games on PSVR for longer than half an hour. Because being interested..lol.
but don't let me stop you for continuing to speak out of your arse.
family_guy
Member
Technically the Dual Shock 4 is a tracked controller. Anyway I don't see anything wrong with being a bit conservative in their approaches at this point in time. I I feel like both the Vive and Rift will get redesigns within the next 18 months so I'm not as interested in getting version 1 of these products that aren't upgradeable.
That would be amazing once a good number of us have our helmets.
Right, yeah, the DS4 is pretty cool in that sense, it does seem to add something tangible over a non-tracked XB1 controller (for example), but it's not really close to the same thing.
The point is now was the time to set some baseline standards for VR, in 18 months, developers will be even more inclined to target the larger install base and that will probably include a lot of headsets without tracked controllers. Whereas now is the stage where developers are taking risks on VR and this is when they don't mind not having the install base as much (because.. there isn't one).
I'm not saying we've missed our chance and now it's irreparably damaged, but I do think it's a set back that will slow the development of VR by a reasonable amount.
serversurfer
Member
Sure, some Rift owners will be buying Touch, and when they do, they'll need to deal with the complexity of setting it up. Since they don't have Touch currently though, there's currently no need for them to set it up.
Yes, and when that day comes, I expect both to have a fairly similar OOTB experience, but again, that day isn't here yet, so unsurprisingly, the more complex system is more complicated to set up.
Yup, that's what makes setting up all of the stuff that comes in your Vive box more complicated than setting up all of the stuff that comes in your Rift box.
Is that option detailed in the setup instructions? Even if it is, I still think that "what came in the box" is a perfectly reasonable comparison for someone to make. /shrug
Honestly, I think anyone truly interested in mobility should be looking to wearables, and Lighthouse is actually a pretty great tracking system for that. Samsung can add some able bodies to the next iteration of GearVR for a few bucks, and then we just need stand-alone beacons to enable positional tracking. Then you can get up to wander and spin around without worrying about tangles.
Anyone know if somebody has tried Move-style tracking using those spiffy new VR cams? You'd still want a second one in the room to combat occlusion, but the FOV would outstanding, and you could use it for lots of different stuff beyond simple tracking.
Sure, but that's an advantage as much as a disadvantage. While the DS4 isn't a very good surrogate for a pair of hands, as I mentioned earlier, it would make for a pretty badass flight stick.