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The High-end VR Discussion Thread (HTC Vive, Oculus Rift, Playstation VR)

So the Vive doesn't have as good a sense of 3D at distance? Bummer, my Vive just arrived and I haven't even opened it yet 😂

No. This is ridiculous. Vivecraft looks fantastic at all depths aliasing aside but the aliasing is probably down to two things,

A. I haven't messed with the settings much and can't get antialiasing to turn on for some reason in the Minecraft settings. I'm new to the PC space so I feel like I'm making a rookie mistake here somewhere.

B. The limitations of the resolution of the screens in the headset which is going to be the same for pretty much all HMD's Rift included ATM.

And if you don't have Minecraft on the Vive then just try out The Lab photogrammetry stuff. Specifically the mountain one. Sense of depth is amazing.
 

Onemic

Member
No. This is ridiculous. Vivecraft looks fantastic at all depths aliasing aside but the aliasing is probably down to two things,

A. I haven't messed with the settings much and can't get antialiasing to turn on for some reason in the Minecraft settings. I'm new to the PC space so I feel like I'm making a rookie mistake here somewhere.

B. The limitations of the resolution of the screens in the headset which is going to be the same for pretty much all HMD's Rift included ATM.

And if you don't have Minecraft on the Vive then just try out The Lab photogrammetry stuff. Specifically the mountain one. Sense of depth is amazing.

How is the performance on Vivecraft? Any chance my R9 270 would be able to run it?
 
There is absolutely no evidence that it can't track fast moving controllers. It's pure speculation and hasn't been a reported as an issue at any of the demos or by anyone with a dev kit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEhOivWqGmA&feature=youtu.be

No tracking problems with controllers moving quickly using the cameras in an opposing position 18ft apart.



No reasons aside from the reasons Oculus has repeatedly articulated, that is.

Don't get me wrong, I'd very much prefer to have the Touch controllers already released, but companies don't always do things the way I want them to, even if I make it clear on the internet that I really really want it.

He seems unsure about the tracking for some games the last 2 minutes in. But I can see where you all are coming from. I was stating that I was unsure about the touches because they still seem not ready for prime time and that was it.
 

KingSnake

The Birthday Skeleton
Elite: Dangerous is just running strange on Vive for some reason. Changing the video setting within game doesn't produce really visible changes in what's rendered. And it's the only game from what I've tried that has such big issues, like the text is really unreadable at some angles and the aliasing is really bad on it. And I have a 980ti.

Huh, I've only put a couple hours into Elite on my Rift but I thought it looked gorgeous.

I immediately set my game to have these Nvidia settings someone on reddit with a 980 Ti recommended, so maybe they really do make a big difference?

I should try this tomorrow.
 
Elite on the Rift looks... kind of bad, I guess. There's a LOT of shimmering on distant objects, changing resolution or upscaling the game basically changes nothing (I couldn't see benefits comparing 720p to 4K), to the point where I believe the game is running with a fixed preset graphical fidelity. I can't even imagine how it looks on the Vive given that the Rift is supposed to be so much better. And it's definitely not something with my Rift, Lucky's Tale looks amazing, as other games and even Eve to a less extent. I guess that anything that relies on too much attention on distant objects will be a lackluster experience with the current gen HMDs.


Don't feel bad about it though, I was really afraid about what I would think before setting it up and actually enjoying the damn thing. It's a game changing technology, that's for sure.

Typically the resolution the game renders at is given to it by the SDK. The in-game resolution is typically for the game display it shows on you monitor. This is how games like Job Simulator work at least, and I'd imagine it would be the same here. Just set it to something small because it won't affect what the framebuffer size to render to the HMD. SteamVR does allow you to override the supersampling parameter, and some games may expose that as a supersampling option as well (not at my PC and don't know if Elite has a super-sampling option for VR). By default SteamVR uses 1.4x supersampling.

People have dug into the Elite issue on Vive, and they've confirmed it is rendering at the correct resolution (1.4x super sampling). The current leading theory is that text is missing mip-maps which can cause it to appear slightly blurry. However, if their theory is correct, that does mean it's affecting Rift as well, so that alone doesn't explain why there's evidence it looks better on the Rift than the Vive. For that, you need to turn to hardware/drivers.

For why it looks better on Rift, the current theories are:

1) Rift has 24% better angular resolution (essentially, it has higher pixel density per angle). Obviously you can't cheat physics and Rift and Vive are running the same resolution but Vive is stretching that panel over a higher FOV. Elite's fonts taking up a relatively small angular view since it's at a fixed point on the ship and fairly tiny would make sense why Rift seems to appear better.

2) Vive's distortion method seems to be affecting the sub-pixel layout differently than Rift.

Those two by itself aren't always a huge issue if the content in question was designed for VR from the onset. So low contrast, thicker fonts aren't going to be as much of a problem as they have been with the fonts used in Elite which are high contrast and small/thin fonts. Plus, the text in the UI in Elite is fixed in space in front of you so the angle at which you see it may affect readability as well. The first order of business should be for Frontier to determine if the mip-mapping issue is true, and of course fix that which should improve the quality in both headsets, and in the short-term that's all they might be able to do. Secondary, they should also look at changing the size and type of fonts to be more VR friendly.

People on the Vive subreddit have dug into this issue a bit, and here's their findings: https://www.reddit.com/r/Vive/wiki/elitedangerous

Another potential theory is that maybe Frontier is using the Layers functionality from the Oculus SDK ( https://developer.oculus.com/documentation/pcsdk/latest/concepts/dg-render/#dg-render-layers ). I'm not sure if OpenVR has an equivalent, but if it doesn't that might explain some differences too.
 

Peterthumpa

Member
Typically the resolution the game renders at is given to it by the SDK. The in-game resolution is typically for the game display it shows on you monitor. This is how games like Job Simulator work at least, and I'd imagine it would be the same here. Just set it to something small because it won't affect what the framebuffer size to render to the HMD. SteamVR does allow you to override the supersampling parameter, and some games may expose that as a supersampling option as well (not at my PC and don't know if Elite has a super-sampling option for VR). By default SteamVR uses 1.4x supersampling.
Nice in-depth explanation.

So, in theory, leaving it as the standard (1280x720) and cranking up supersampling would be the best option then? Also, changing the resolution inside the game has no effect on IQ itself but since it is rendering at the selected resolution in the secondary screen, there's for sure a big hit in performance that would be totally lost (and compensated as much as possible by ATW somehow)?
 

Onemic

Member
I would imagine so. Just start out on default settings and turn stuff up from there if you want. It's definitely worth it man. It's a fantastic experience.

Sweet, at least I have something to tide me over until Pascal arrives.

You said that Vorpx was problematic, since I doubt the other program you talked about will have Vive support before I get my Vive, I'll probably have to bite on buying it. What are the problems it currently has? I think it was you or another poster that said that it's pretty cumbersome.
 

Absinthe

Member
So I'm going to sell my Vive. It arrived today (Unopened) and I have decided to keep my Rift instead. I don't have the space to enjoy room-scale and convincing the wife to let me create the space is proving to be more of a challenge than I anticipated.

I prefer to avoid Ebay if I can and I would rather someone on GAF get it. PM
 
So I'm going to sell my Vive. It arrived today (Unopened) and I have decided to keep my Rift instead. I don't have the space to enjoy room-scale and convincing the wife to let me create the space is proving to be more of a challenge than I anticipated.

I prefer to avoid Ebay if I can and I would rather someone on GAF get it. PM
I don't think opening it would devalue it much. I'd at least try it out. Even if you don't have much room to wander about, having a pair of 6DOF controllers is pretty slick in and of itself.
 
Sweet, at least I have something to tide me over until Pascal arrives.

You said that Vorpx was problematic, since I doubt the other program you talked about will have Vive support before I get my Vive, I'll probably have to bite on buying it. What are the problems it currently has? I think it was you or another poster that said that it's pretty cumbersome.

You don't need VorpX to play Minecraft on the Vive.

Just follow this Tutorial. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyaWAb5dNqY&feature=youtu.be
 
I finally was able to play Elite Dangerous in VR for the first time and it was incredible. The scale of everything. It's all so much bigger than it seems on a normal display. Just the seat to the front of the canopy is so much further away than I would have expected and I never appreciated the depth of the different UI elements. The landing display looks in 3D has a completely different feel. This was also the first time I felt the disconnect between the extremely fast movement of the ship while my body was motionless. I only played for a short time, I wasn't getting sick but it was a strange sensation. I am so happy to finally experience this.

I also spent about 2 hours playing in the Lab and some other games. It's all so enthralling. I don't know how to describe it really.
 

Croatoan

They/Them A-10 Warthog
HoloBall and Vanishing Realms are system sellers IMO.


There is a early free game called Spell Master or something, it is clunky as fuck but man does it not have some amazing ideas for casting spells (includes voice commands too).


I tried traditional movement in a game and yeah, I felt a little uneasy (not sick though). The movement was WAY to fast though, so I want to try a game with a slower movement speed to see if that makes me feel bad.

I should have some videos up soon on my locomotion experiments (including directional teleportation).
 
HoloBall and Vanishing Realms are system sellers IMO.

HoloBall is dangerous though. I banged my controller in the ceiling, and I read tons of reports about people who punch their walls and TVs since the game shoots balls at the outermost areas of the chaperone pretty regularly. I think I'll hold off playing (and letting others play) until they let you adjust height at least.
 
I finally was able to play Elite Dangerous in VR for the first time and it was incredible. The scale of everything. It's all so much bigger than it seems on a normal display. Just the seat to the front of the canopy is so much further away than I would have expected and I never appreciated the depth of the different UI elements. The landing display looks in 3D has a completely different feel. This was also the first time I felt the disconnect between the extremely fast movement of the ship while my body was motionless. I only played for a short time, I wasn't getting sick but it was a strange sensation. I am so happy to finally experience this.

I also spent about 2 hours playing in the Lab and some other games. It's all so enthralling. I don't know how to describe it really.

Yessir, "scale" as it pertains Elite Dangerous takes on an entirely new meaning in VR.
 

Croatoan

They/Them A-10 Warthog
HoloBall is dangerous though. I banged my controller in the ceiling, and I read tons of reports about people who punch their walls and TVs since the game shoots balls at the outermost areas of the chaperone pretty regularly. I think I'll hold off playing (and letting others play) until they let you adjust height at least.

If you correctly identified where your monitor is it should have you play the opposite direction.

Maybe I got lucky but I had my wife watching me and I never came close to hitting anything with my swings, and I was pretty aggressive (my space is barely bigger than minimum right now too. I am short though 5' 8" so I can't even touch the ceiling with the controller while standing :p.
 
My expectations for VR keep getting lower and lower between this and the Vive blurriness issue :/

Let's be honest: you keep cherry-picking posts that match your fears. It's been like this for quite some time now.

And it's absurd, especially considering that ED's situation has nothing to do with hardware.

And the "blurriness issue" is not an issue, at all (as many have already explained to you); it's just how the tech works today.
 
Anyone else play Project Cars in VR with SLI? It causes what appears to be ghosting, as if the 2 images are not in sync. Disabling SLI fixes it but I wasn't sure if there was another option.
 
PSVR question:

Will the MOVE controllers and the Playstation camera be outdated to perform optimally for the PSVR? What have impressions been like with regard to tracking use these devices?

That's the tech they have been developing with. It should work just fine at retail.
 
HoloBall is dangerous though. I banged my controller in the ceiling, and I read tons of reports about people who punch their walls and TVs since the game shoots balls at the outermost areas of the chaperone pretty regularly. I think I'll hold off playing (and letting others play) until they let you adjust height at least.

I've played some Vanishing Realms (and me likey) so I'll have to try and check out HoloBall, which I haven't heard of before.
 

Croatoan

They/Them A-10 Warthog
The more I play and develop in VR the more I realize how limited the tech currently is.

- Forget any game idea that requires the player to see clearly beyond about 30 feet.

- People with good peripheral vision (like me) are punished in VR because you can actually see outside of the screens no matter how close they are.

- People who look with their eyes are also punished because the screen is only clear dead center (seriously, who turns their head to read? Well, you have to in vr because if you are far enough away to not need to then you are in "pixelated mess can't read land".

- Shimmering and aliasing is fucking EVERYWHERE. Man its bad.

- Getting in the sweet spot is a shit show and staying there is pretty impossible. Look down at the ground and the vive will pull up on your head, unless you have it tight enough to cut off circulation in your face, thus screwing over your vision.

- The motion sickness is real (at least for me), teleportation only please

- Counting pixels is fun when you are waiting for the headset to regain sync (grey screen).

- There is no point in games using realistic high res textures. When trying to focus on the detail it just gets lost because the SDE or pixels become very apparent. Only when staying focused on the gameplay or entirety of the world do these things "disappear".

That said I love the actual Room Scale experience. The 1 to 1 tracking is revolutionary combined with presence (when constantly adjusting the headset to stay in sweet spot doesn't pull you out of the experience).

Overall, if you are not a developer or someone who loves the bleeding edge, I would NOT buy into VR until we have screens capable of complete clarity at long distances (IE comparable with traditional monitors). So yeah, I wouldn't buy in until 2026 at the very least.
 
The more I play and develop in VR the more I realize how limited the tech currently is.

- Forget any game idea that requires the player to see clearly beyond about 30 feet.

- People with good peripheral vision (like me) are punished in VR because you can actually see outside of the screens no matter how close they are.

- People who look with their eyes are also punished because the screen is only clear dead center (seriously, who turns their head to read? Well, you have to in vr because if you are far enough away to not need to then you are in "pixelated mess can't read land".

- Shimmering and aliasing is fucking EVERYWHERE. Man its bad.

- Getting in the sweet spot is a shit show and staying there is pretty impossible. Look down at the ground and the vive will pull up on your head, unless you have it tight enough to cut off circulation in your face, thus screwing over your vision.

- The motion sickness is real (at least for me), teleportation only please

- Counting pixels is fun when you are waiting for the headset to regain sync (grey screen).

- There is no point in games using realistic high res textures. When trying to focus on the detail it just gets lost because the SDE or pixels become very apparent. Only when staying focused on the gameplay or entirety of the world do these things "disappear".

That said I love the actual Room Scale experience. The 1 to 1 tracking is revolutionary combined with presence (when constantly adjusting the headset to stay in sweet spot doesn't pull you out of the experience).

Overall, if you are not a developer or someone who loves the bleeding edge, I would NOT buy into VR until we have screens capable of complete clarity at long distances (IE comparable with traditional monitors). So yeah, I wouldn't buy in until 2026 at the very least.

You made some valid points, some being very YMMV (SDE and motion sickness sensitivity), but then I read your last sentence.

"2026"

shaq-laughing-press-conference-shaq-gifs.gif
 
What are the advantages supposed to be for the fresnel lenses that Oculus and HTC went with? The light rays are so incredibly noticeable, I just don't see how it was worth the trade off.
 

Onemic

Member
Let's be honest: you keep cherry-picking posts that match your fears. It's been like this for quite some time now.

And it's absurd, especially considering that ED's situation has nothing to do with hardware.

And the "blurriness issue" is not an issue, at all (as many have already explained to you); it's just how the tech works today.

Im just tempering my expectations man. I cant take only the positive impressions and none of the negative ones. That's a sure way to get disappointed once you get to actually try the thing yourself.
 
Random observations after a full week with the Vive



-Having someone or something invade your personal space whether it be in altspace or Brookhaven experiement is such an uneasy feeling.

-Moving around altspace vr using the touch pad, instead of teleporting or blinking, makes me a little queasy. The frame rates are fine its just the act of moving in a virtual space without moving in the real world that throws me off.

-Being an early adopter can suck sometimes. When the Vive works its great but it when it temporarily loses tracking on the headset or the controller, or the lighthouses randomly loses sync, or when the controllers fail to pair it can be frustrating to troubleshoot given that the tech is so new and the product just released. I know Valve will iron out the issues with firmware and software updates, as evident by the multiple updates that have been released since launch and their continued support for their platform and other hardware ventures.

-Room scale is the future. I've spent a lot of time on DK1, DK2, CV1, and Mattel's View master at work. And while all of these devices offer a wonderful VR experience, adding room scale with 1:1 mapping of your controller in a virtual space is truly a game changer. I live in a tiny, 450 sq ft NYC apt and barely meet the minimum amount of space required for room scale. However, even with the limited amount of space room scale just works. My word of advice for those of you who are on the fence because you feel the limited amount of space isn't enough, it is enough.
 
The Indiegala VR bundle is stupid. Half of games in that bundle dont even have Vive or Oculus 1.3 support....

Out of those games only:

Spells and Stuff (Vive)
Nighttime Terror (Vive+Oculus)
Cat Interstellar (Oculus)
Gon' E-Choo! (Oculus)

have real 1.3 or Vive support.

These dont have 1.3/Vive support:

Doorways
Dungeon Hero
Heaven Island - VR MMO
Reflections
DREAMFLIGHT VR
Tea Party Simulator 2015


Here is a Modbot giveaway for 2 of these games:

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Heaven Island VR MMO -- MB-ACE8E1200063E5CE
Doorways Chapter 1-3 -- MB-C5A788895DC54F0E
 
Dolphin VR seems to be working just as well on Vive as it does with the Rift in case anybody's wondering. I do hope he's working on fixing the judder though, which is present with both.
 

Onemic

Member
Dolphin VR seems to be working just as well on Vive as it does with the Rift in case anybody's wondering. I do hope he's working on fixing the judder though, which is present with both.

Have you tried Metroid Prime on it? If so how is it? If not, which games benefit the most from VR?

I remember someone posted about Prime being played on a DK2, but head movement wasnt tracked with the helmet, so you'd get a bunch of black bars and artificats whenever you moved your head from the center of Samus' helmet.
 
Have you tried Metroid Prime on it? If so how is it? If not, which games benefit the most from VR?

I remember someone posted about Prime being played on a DK2, but head movement wasnt tracked with the helmet, so you'd get a bunch of black bars and artificats whenever you moved your head from the center of Samus' helmet.

the 2d GUI just sort of floats in front of your screen for other games, id assume metroid is the same

ive only tried 2 games - mario kart double dash and super mario sunshine. mario kart works great while mario sunshine has a number of color problems/glitches
 
Have you tried Metroid Prime on it? If so how is it? If not, which games benefit the most from VR?

I remember someone posted about Prime being played on a DK2, but head movement wasnt tracked with the helmet, so you'd get a bunch of black bars and artificats whenever you moved your head from the center of Samus' helmet.

Haven't tried. I'll check it out this weekend and post my findings in here.
 

KingSnake

The Birthday Skeleton
Here's a nice projects:

http://vrscout.com/projects/v-brings-web-vr-experience-choose/

V allows users to launch a custom dashboard that gives access to some of the webs best locations such as YouTube, Soundcloud, Twitter, and Skype all without leaving their VR game/movie.

The idea goes like this: All these awesome websites have equally amazing mobile apps specifically designed for simple, touch controls. These controls translate extremely well to VR, which is why V ports them into any virtual reality application via a pleasant and easy-to-navigate dashboard. How you ask? It’s actually incredibly intuitive: The dashboard is uploaded directly into the render pipeline, allowing it to display as an overlay in any virtual reality experience designed using Unreal Engine or Unity (Currently the two most popular engine options).

This might be a great idea, the mobile app should avoid the problems with the resolution and unreadable text that the desktop app have when viewed in the HMD.
 
Has anyone tried the Gear-powered, VR coasters at Six Flags yet? Ours hasn't opened quite yet, but t recently learned they actually have full positional tracking thanks to a QR sticker slapped on the back of the headrest in front of you. They also mentioned that the experience is tuned per-car, so riders at the back of the train experience the same stuff, but "10 meters later" or whatever. They didn't specifically say whether they took in to account the fact that you're subject to different acceleration forces depending on where you sit on the train, and they didn't mention whether or not you can see your seat-mate, though left-right position in the car is accounted for. I got the impression it's a purely solo experience though, and I'm fairly certain that individual cars can't see each other, at least.

Another thing you won't be seeing is the track itself. They've designed two experiences thus far, and in the first, you're in a fighter jet, fending off an alien invasion. So they just replace the train car with a cockpit, and you fly around the battle for a bit. The scenario scheduled to open "later this summer," has you following a battle between Superman and Lex, though I'm not sure what role the user actually plays. I'm also not sure if there's any actual interactivity in either experience, like user-controlled missiles or heat vision, but I suspect it's pretty passive overall.

They also mentioned they'd be using three headsets per seat — one being used, one being cleaned, and one being charged. They mentioned staffing would be necessarily higher on the VR rides, but they thought the overall improvement to the experience was worth it. Also, hiring extra staff to usher punters through the experience-of-the-month is still a lot cheaper than actually building a new coaster.

They also mentioned the possibility of networked VR midway games, allowing you to shoot hoops and squirt clowns while playing against users in parks around the country, but I don't think they have firm plans for that just yet. Sounded more like something we may see if the coasters are popular.

So has anyone tried it yet? How is it? How does it affect ridership in terms of popularity and throughput?
 

beef3483

Member
I had a totally hypothetical idea that I know would never be practical in any VR games/experiences, but because the VR headsets shoot separate images to each eye, isn't it possible now to experience sight as a horse or bird does, which have their eyes on separate sides of their face? No doubt it would probably fry our brains or something.
 

Crispy75

Member
I had a totally hypothetical idea that I know would never be practical in any VR games/experiences, but because the VR headsets shoot separate images to each eye, isn't it possible now to experience sight as a horse or bird does, which have their eyes on separate sides of their face? No doubt it would probably fry our brains or something.

Our optic nerve (which in many ways is an extension of the brain) is hard wired for binocular vision. Information from both eyes is combined and processed before it even reaches the brain proper.

image774.jpg


Maybe if you altered an infant's vision from birth (and they call me mad mwahahaha), the rest of the visual system could be trained to interpret this sort of input, but I don't think the adult brain could manage.
 

beef3483

Member
Maybe if you altered an infant's vision from birth (and they call me mad mwahahaha), the rest of the visual system could be trained to interpret this sort of input, but I don't think the adult brain could manage.

Ahh, well perhaps a hundred years from now when the new bionic race has risen from the ashes of humanity.
 

mitchman

Gold Member
Our optic nerve (which in many ways is an extension of the brain) is hard wired for binocular vision. Information from both eyes is combined and processed before it even reaches the brain proper.

image774.jpg


Maybe if you altered an infant's vision from birth (and they call me mad mwahahaha), the rest of the visual system could be trained to interpret this sort of input, but I don't think the adult brain could manage.

The vision part of the brain can be trained to perceive and interpret the images in any number of ways. Just to give an example, in a science experience they put glass on people that turned the image the eyes were seeing upside down.
After less than a week, all participants were seeing normally with their yes even with this goggles on. When they took them off, the brain had to use a few days to adjust the vision back to normal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perceptual_adaptation touches upon some of this.
Another experiment was to try to learn braille to normal people with normal eye sight. It was extremely difficult until they started using blindfolds. The brain can adapt and use parts of the brain no longer used, in this case the vision part, to interpret new sensory input. Amazing stuff :)
 

Sky Chief

Member
Our optic nerve (which in many ways is an extension of the brain) is hard wired for binocular vision. Information from both eyes is combined and processed before it even reaches the brain proper.

image774.jpg


Maybe if you altered an infant's vision from birth (and they call me mad mwahahaha), the rest of the visual system could be trained to interpret this sort of input, but I don't think the adult brain could manage.

Apache pilots have to learn how to fly at night by using both eyes at the same time for different things. One eye looks through a night vision monocle that is connected to a camera that is 1m below and 3m in front of the pilot and uses headtracking to aim. The other eye is used to see the inside of the helicopter and all the instruments. Apparently, very few pilots can master this skill but it is still possible for the adult brain to develop this ability.
 

Crispy75

Member
The vision part of the brain can be trained to perceive and interpret the images in any number of ways. Just to give an example, in a science experience they put glass on people that turned the image the eyes were seeing upside down.
After less than a week, all participants were seeing normally with their yes even with this goggles on. When they took them off, the brain had to use a few days to adjust the vision back to normal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perceptual_adaptation touches upon some of this.
Another experiment was to try to learn braille to normal people with normal eye sight. It was extremely difficult until they started using blindfolds. The brain can adapt and use parts of the brain no longer used, in this case the vision part, to interpret new sensory input. Amazing stuff :)

The upside-down world was still binocular though.
The brain is adaptable, but it's not *that* adaptable.

I'd like to get an actual neurologist's opinion on this though. Googling research on this topic isn't finding much.
 
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