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[Cindi Mayweather]

I like studying martial arts. Not only the actual arts but also the history of the famous ones and how they got to that point. My art is Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and I'm amazed at the historicity of it all. How to blurs the line of idol worship at times, to the amazing and legitimate contributions to martial arts as per the Gracie family, the growth and evolution of the art as catch wrestling, sambo, and judo elements were slowly added in. The fact that BJJ stayed seperate from its original art for nearly a century, only to be unleashed using techniques that either long forgotten in judo or completely banned. The art is a hot bed for interesting facts and tidbits.

Slideyfoot made a well written and extremely in-depth guide to the history of this art.

http://www.slideyfoot.com/1982/06/history-of-brazilian-jiu-jitsu-bjj.html?m=1

It's utterly fascinating to me.

If other martial arts interest you head on over to to the Martial Art's OT!

 

[Renekton]

Ding ding! I took this round!

(This reminds me of Laura Matsuda)

 

[whitemex88]

I'm more of a Capoeira man myself, but this is pretty cool

 

[Dodecagon]

Thank you for this dense write up, really enjoyable read, even from a BJJ outsider.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Look how much BJJ changed in twenty years.

Here's Helio vs Kato.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZoOBGwgdlc

Here's Rolls training with Rickson in the 70's (80's ?).

http://youtu.be/rKpMP-0zORg

One looks like modern BJJ and one doesn't. Fascinating.

 

[Geist-]

This is really interesting. I've actually been really interested in starting some martial arts training, I'm just currently in the process of working on some cardio so I don't get worn out too fast and embarrass myself. BJJ is at the top of my list, so this was really cool.

 

[Sohter.Nura]

Funny watching those old rolls videos. Shit was really raw, nowadays the art is so much more technical.

 

[dream]

I mean, much of Helio's "pure water" stuff is garbage, and I'd blame that entirely on Rorion, but there is something to the idea that GJJ was tailored for self-defense. The stuff Carlson's side was doing, especially when you look at guys like Mario Sperry, Wallid Ismail, Allen Goes, Ricardo Liborio, and Murilo Bustamante, was more aggressive because it was tailored for sport BJJ.

But that had its limitations too, and I think the real innovation came when Sperry, et al split from Carlson, forming BTT, and finally incorporating wrestling into their grappling, which helped shore up a lot of the positional deficiencies of traditional BJJ.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Funny watching those old rolls videos. Shit was really raw, nowadays the art is so much more technical.

Apparently Rolls was technical as shit too. Shame he died young.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

I mean, much of Helio's "pure water" stuff is garbage, and I'd blame that entirely on Rorion, but there is something to the idea that GJJ was tailored for self-defense. The stuff Carlson's side was doing, especially when you look at guys like Mario Sperry, Wallid Ismail, Allen Goes, Ricardo Liborio, and Murilo Bustamante, was more aggressive because it was tailored for sport BJJ.

But that had its limitations too, and I think the real innovation came when Sperry, et al split from Carlson, forming BTT, and finally incorporating wrestling into their grappling, which helped shore up a lot of the positional deficiencies of traditional BJJ.

It makes the "self defense Jiu Jitsu" crap that Rener, Royce, and co. peddle look like grade A bullshit.

Carlson *bows*

This is really interesting. I've actually been really interested in starting some martial arts training, I'm just currently in the process of working on some cardio so I don't get worn out too fast and embarrass myself. BJJ is at the top of my list, so this was really cool.

Just go and do it. Nothing will prepare you and get you in Jiu Jitsu shape like doing Jiu Jitsu.

 

[dream]

It makes the "self defense Jiu Jitsu" crap that Rener, Royce, and co. peddle look like grade A bullshit.

Carlson *bows*

But keep in mind GJJ was developed for vale tudo. When headbutts and punches are being thrown, I think I'd much rather go with a basic Royce-style guard than something like a spiderguard or x-guard.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

But keep in mind GJJ was developed for vale tudo. When headbutts and punches are being thrown, I think I'd much rather go with a basic Royce-style guard than something like a spiderguard or x-guard.

I just don't value the self defense rhetoric a lot of martial arts advertise. I mean, the way I figure it doing martial arts itself will give me the confidence I need to not even get into fights. For me it's an option if I'm being raped or a crazy ex tried to kill me. Other wise I'd rather run.

I think a lot of the "the technical fancy sports BJJ moves aren't effective in a real fight" stuff is hog wash because honestly, assuming we're fighting in the street, I don't want to take it to the ground where there's concrete in the first place. What if a tackle or sweep ends up with my head cracked open? What about theirs and I accidentally kill them? What about attacks from multiple people? Unless you're going to fight In MMA, it's pure reflex for me to instantly tune you out if you bring up martial arts and fight arguments. It's just the least most important part of MA's to me.

No offense to GJJ and self defense, but self defense only goes so far, and in a martial art like Jiu Jitsu should have immense diminishing returns the more belts you acquire. I think self defense GJJ vs "sport" BJJ argument is another way for certain Gracie's to market themselves as the ones doing "real" Jiu Jitsu, which is insulting to everyone else.

 

[Vigilant Walrus]

"Yoda" xD

 

[ZoronMaro]

Thanks for the great write up.

I haven't done any real research like you, but as a karate practitioner I've spent some time browsing wikipedia and talking to people who have done actual research on martial arts history. I was surprised by how modern most arts are and it's fascinating to me that so many martial arts that try to pride themselves on their traditions and turn their founders into idols, despite being less than a century old.

Subscribing because I definitely want to watch those videos as soon as I get home.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Thanks for the great write up.

I haven't done any real research like you, but as a karate practitioner I've spent some time browsing wikipedia and talking to people who have done actual research on martial arts history. I was surprised by how modern most arts are and it's fascinating to me that so many martial arts that try to pride themselves on their traditions and turn their founders into idols, despite being less than a century old.

Subscribing because I definitely want to watch those videos as soon as I get home.

I especially like how it relates to Jiu Jitsu.

A lot of BJJers are stuck up and buy that they're practicing the "most effective martial art" as advertised by the Gracie's. When Helio Gracie lost to Kimura and it was a "draw" despite being doing nothing but being slammed on the mat for a few minutes and having his arm broken, Helio "won" because of his smaller weight (despite being taller iirc). When the Gracie's win, Jiu Jitsu triumphs. If they draw then Jiu Jitsu still wins because they're were able to tangle, which so totally shows BJJ is effective. If they lose then it doesn't count anyways, or the rules weren't in their favor, or in the case of Kimura "oh he's a Jiu Jitsu user so even though we lost Jiu Jitsu still wins and is the supreme martial art."

For all of the idiotic tirades against traditional martial arts I've heard from mma/BJJ fans (and I hate that these two overlap so much but it is what it is) Jiu Jitsu does a lot of the same snake oil martial arts Jesus crap.

 

[iddqd]

Thanks for the write up, very happy to see a more realistic approach to the holy Gracies.

Just a side rant:
Dojo religion in BJJ is super annoying, I recently moved cities and had to look for a new gym.
The first (and biggest one in the area) one would not allow me to do a trial class because my GI had a patch from my old school (that is more then 5h away).

I thought the "my school vs your school" shit had died out in the 80s but nope, some schools are still on that trip.
One of the reasons most NO GI centric places are cooler and nicer.
And I would totally understand it if they want me to remove that patch once I sign up, sure thing! But not even letting me roll to see if I like it? Are people going to see that patch and then move to a different town to join that school? Are there secret heel hooks that no outsider is allowed to see?
Weird and backwards (Renzo Gracie affiliated btw.)

I love training in the GI because I'm slow and old but shit like that makes NO GI places look better. Now if only 10th planet would have less dumb names for moves...

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Thanks for the write up, very happy to see a more realistic approach to the holy Gracies.

Just a side rant:
Dojo religion in BJJ is super annoying, I recently moved cities and had to look for a new gym.
The first (and biggest one in the area) one would not allow me to do a trial class because my GI had a patch from my old school (that is more then 5h away).

I thought the "my school vs your school" shit had died out in the 80s but nope, some schools are still on that trip.
One of the reasons most NO GI centric places are cooler and nicer.
And I would totally understand it if they want me to remove that patch once I sign up, sure thing! But not even letting me roll to see if I like it? Are people going to see that patch and then move to a different town to join that school? Are there secret heel hooks that no outsider is allowed to see?
Weird and backwards (Renzo Gracie affiliated btw.)

I love training in the GI because I'm slow and old but shit like that makes NO GI places look better. Now if only 10th planet would have less dumb names for moves...

I love no gi but probably couldn't go to a dedicated no gi place, at least now. Eddie's professor, a Machado, said he can always tell when one of Eddie's students has never trained in a gi and that they're missing something. I think a balance should be made. A gym shouldn't have only gi or only no gi, IMO. I think having both options is good. But that's my experience as a white belt so what the fuck do I know? Heh. But for me personally, I enjoy both and wouldn't want to lose one.

As for your gym, sorry about that. I hope I don't have that experience when I move next year. What was the original gym? A Barra or something?

 

[conman]

Yeah, I've been training in martial arts for most of my life, and a large part of my professional career involves studying the history of martial arts. One thing I've learned about most accepted "histories" of martial arts: histories of martial arts are 90% myth and 10% narcissism.

But as a practitioner, I've also learned that histories of martial arts are like religious histories. It's not about the accuracy of the history. It's about what those histories mean to you and to the art.

 

[Vigilant Walrus]

I especially like how it relates to Jiu Jitsu.

A lot of BJJers are stuck up and buy that they're practicing the "most effective martial art" as advertised by the Gracie's. When Helio Gracie lost to Kimura and it was a "draw" despite being doing nothing but being slammed on the mat for a few minutes and having his arm broken, Helio "won" because of his smaller weight (despite being taller iirc). When the Gracie's win, Jiu Jitsu triumphs. If they draw then Jiu Jitsu still wins because they're were able to tangle, which so totally shows BJJ is effective. If they lose then it doesn't count anyways, or the rules weren't in their favor, or in the case of Kimura "oh he's a Jiu Jitsu user so even though we lost Jiu Jitsu still wins and is the supreme martial art."

For all of the idiotic tirades against traditional martial arts I've heard from mma/BJJ fans (and I hate that these two overlap so much but it is what it is) Jiu Jitsu does a lot of the same snake oil martial arts Jesus crap.

I think that Martial Arts unfortunately has always been cultist in its behavior. The infighting between which styles is better probably goes back to ancient MMA in Greece(Pankration). I think Bruce Lee was ahead of his time when he proposed that he didn't longer believe in one style of fighting, but advocated cross training. That was essentially what Jet Kunn Do was (as I understand it).


When I look at Judo or Wrestling or Sambo, I see a lot of overlap. Different rulesets and niches, but it would be foolish to discredit the other styles. Pins or Ippon or submissions- Those are the details. Fighting in 100% sparring. That is what I think is so fascinating about grappling. That one can go at it 100% and try to destroy someone else, trying to choke them unconscious and break their limbs and it doesn't hurt anyone due to the tap.
That sort of 100% sparring is not sustainable in striking!

I too am puzzled with the snakeoil- But also outside of it. You occasionally see people who say that Wing Chun is too deadly to be used in MMA - or Krav Maga. Or hear people say that Judo or Wrestling doesn't work because they will just kick your knee and gorge out your eyes before you can do anything. Followed by hypothetical about aids needles, biting, multiple attackers and all that other jazz that forever muddies these discussions about fighting.
I also think the UFC fandom engulfs this behavior. Depending on the latest upset of a striker or grappler, or hybrid winning or losing in a shock, usually follows declarations of this or that martial arts being useless. What we've seen is that there is an incredible adaptation rate.

But at the same time, there are things that doesn't change all that much. I love this Judo instructional by Mifune- It's almost a hundred years old; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iXImGCb1G8

You recognize the techniques. Particularly in ground fighting "na waza"; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlFJuYEw-Hw < Waiter sweep, rear naked, , guillotine,scissor, mount, side control, kesa gatame, arm triangle. I mean.. even the crucifix. A modern flashy technique.

 

[ZoronMaro]

I especially like how it relates to Jiu Jitsu.

A lot of BJJers are stuck up and buy that they're practicing the "most effective martial art" as advertised by the Gracie's. When Helio Gracie lost to Kimura and it was a "draw" despite being doing nothing but being slammed on the mat for a few minutes and having his arm broken, Helio "won" because of his smaller weight (despite being taller iirc). When the Gracie's win, Jiu Jitsu triumphs. If they draw then Jiu Jitsu still wins because they're were able to tangle, which so totally shows BJJ is effective. If they lose then it doesn't count anyways, or the rules weren't in their favor, or in the case of Kimura "oh he's a Jiu Jitsu user so even though we lost Jiu Jitsu still wins and is the supreme martial art."

For all of the idiotic tirades against traditional martial arts I've heard from mma/BJJ fans (and I hate that these two overlap so much but it is what it is) Jiu Jitsu does a lot of the same snake oil martial arts Jesus crap.

I don't know about BJJ, but it's extra ridiculous in my style since our founder has written several books so his life and his mindset towards karate are well documented, and he makes it clear that martial arts should always evolve to become better. But no, we have to stuff "this way" because that's how Funakoshi did it, and he's was the best martial arts master ever. Fortunately there's some dojos that don't drink the kool-aid so I just stick to those.

Also my sensei loves to make the parallel between dojos and churches, it's very true.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

The snake oil is why I mostly ignore MMA and just focus on BJJ. I remember when Ronda lost and the amount of shit people slung at Judo. I...don't get it. The entire premise of "what's the best martial art" is so silly to me. It also feels like a lot of MMA fans care more about blood and spectacle than the technical aspects of each one. I dunno. I'm going off track.

I don't get how a lot of Jiu Jitsu users discredit Judo, especially ones like Helio Gracie. Surely they should be able to admit what they owe Judonand respect it as such, but a lot of them buy it as the supreme evolution - and thus obviously "superior" to Judo. I don't get it. Lots of ego going on when MA's are supposed to kill that very thing.

 

[Measley]

Bjj is superior to Judo because it's not limited by the IJF. You go to Judo dojos nowadays and you can't even do double leg takedowns or ankle grabs. It's a completely watered down sport thanks to the influence of the Olympics.

As for Bjj for self defense, it's saved my ass a few times, so it's definitely worth learning. Which is why I prefer the Helio line over the more sporty side. It's crazy how fast you can get tripped up, knocked down, or straight up tackled in a fight. Definitely better than taking BS like Kung Fu and Karate, that's for sure.

 

[iamblades]

Bjj is superior to Judo because it's not limited by the IJF. You go to Judo dojos nowadays and you can't even do double leg takedowns or ankle grabs. It's a completely watered down sport thanks to the influence of the Olympics.

As for Bjj for self defense, it's saved my ass a few times, so it's definitely worth learning. Which is why I prefer the Helio line over the more sporty side. It's crazy how fast you can get tripped up, knocked down, or straight up tackled in a fight. Definitely better than taking BS like Kung Fu and Karate, that's for sure.

^^

I don't get how the fact that the BJJ Helio was doing in the 50's not being the same as the BJJ that took over the martial arts scene in the 70s not being the same as the BJJ that is around today is somehow a negative.

I thought that was the whole point the Gracies were making, that the other martial arts were set in their ways and never threw out the stuff that didn't work in the real world, largely because the institutions in charge never actually tested the techniques to see if they work or not. See above about the IJF, and before them the Japanese federations.

Now none of this means you should trust everything anyone says about BJJ, there are obviously people who have something at stake(whether ego or monetary), the Gracies included. But the track record over multiple decades kind of speaks for itself at this point.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Bjj is superior to Judo because it's not limited by the IJF. You go to Judo dojos nowadays and you can't even do double leg takedowns or ankle grabs. It's a completely watered down sport thanks to the influence of the Olympics.

As for Bjj for self defense, it's saved my ass a few times, so it's definitely worth learning. Which is why I prefer the Helio line over the more sporty side. It's crazy how fast you can get tripped up, knocked down, or straight up tackled in a fight. Definitely better than taking BS like Kung Fu and Karate, that's for sure.

I agree the IJF and the Olympics has ruined Judo but that does not make Jiu Jitsu superior to Judo especially since many Jiu Jitsu practioners cross train in Judo and find that it helps expand where BJJ is lacking.

The idea that BJJ is all you need is silly.

Also, sports BJJ and "self defense" BJJ are the same thing. Never mind that sports martial arts have shown to be more "effective" in fights since the sports environment has you constantly training with resistance against people regularly. It's the same shit, but just advertised that "sports" Jiu Jitsu is inferior even though many successful fighters have learned BJJ by way of "sports" Jiu Jitsu. Jiu Jitsu is Jiu Jitsu. Any other classification is a way to market and make more money. My professors gym has equal representation of "self defense" and sport. We win medals but we also learn how to get out of a bear hug and do judo throws (which you deem inferior). If the Helio side is so right then how come Gracie's aren't as dominant in BJJ as a whole anymore? The entire argument is crazytown and you're falling for the Kool Aid. Rener and his brother even agree that self defense BJJ takes you up to blue belt and that's it. If self defense BJJ was all you needed most of us would quit at purple. "Self defense BJJ" is dumb.

Also your dig at Karate and other disciplines shows a lot of arrogance as well as ignorance. Look up Kyokushin, which you label as BS.

 

[conman]

Bjj is superior to Judo because it's not limited by the IJF. You go to Judo dojos nowadays and you can't even do double leg takedowns or ankle grabs. It's a completely watered down sport thanks to the influence of the Olympics.

As for Bjj for self defense, it's saved my ass a few times, so it's definitely worth learning. Which is why I prefer the Helio line over the more sporty side. It's crazy how fast you can get tripped up, knocked down, or straight up tackled in a fight. Definitely better than taking BS like Kung Fu and Karate, that's for sure.

Every art has its limitations. BJJ training has become increasingly bound by sport rules, just as Judo before it. Every art has had its time in the sun when it comes to claims about "self defense." BJJ is having a bit of a run right now, but like all arts, it won't last. It's what makes martial arts so endlessly fascinating to me. It's constantly in flux.

Nothing is permanent in martial arts training. No technique. No art. No fighter. No method. No self-defense application. Nothing. It's always changing.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Every art has its limitations. BJJ training has become increasingly bound by sport rules, just as Judo before it. Every art has had its time in the sun when it comes to claims about "self defense." BJJ is having a bit of a run right now, but like all arts, it won't last. It's what makes martial arts so endlessly fascinating to me. It's constantly in flux.

Nothing is permanent in martial arts training. No technique. No art. No fighter. No method. No self-defense application. Nothing. It's always changing.

Another thing is where is the evidence there's a difference between the two? From my experience rolling with the rival "self defense" BJJ gym during Open Mat to gauge my progress. I've not seen anything remotely different in the two. From all the BJJ I've watched, and all the BJJ I've done all I'm seeing regarding self defense vs sport BJJ is an invisible boogeyman. A lot of the users who say sports BJJ is inferior tend to speak the loudest, and from I've seen, they've not had nearly as much success in competition as sports BJJ gyms. Since in MMA you can no longer say "Jiu Jitsu is the most dominant martial art" because everyone in MMA now knows Jiu Jitsu, it makes sense to cause a new divide, but this one is internal and it's a way to separate to show that your Jiu Jitsu is the "real" one. The entire thing is just a way to divide and separate something that barely even exists.

Where is the evidence that sports jiu jitsu is even "inferior" and doesn't teach self defense beyond Gracie Academy marketing?

Either way, here's a good article on it:

http://fightland.vice.com/blog/the-...w-jiu-jitsu-debates-reflect-the-gracie-legacy

Great comment:

It is worth noting that while the Helio side is credited with starting the UFC, the Carlos side (specifically, Renzo, and Ralph to a lesser degree) have had much more success in modern MMA, especially in training talented fighters who showcase excellent grappling skills. George St. Pierre, Frankie Edgar, Chris Weidman, Matt Serra, Rory Macdonald, Gunnar Nelson are among the most accomplished.

It is impossible to say which side better prepares its students for "self-defense": there are no metrics to see how well someone fares who gets jumped in the streets and tallying those numbers between schools to compare. What I can say is that Renzo's has more accomplished MMA fighters who use grappling at the highest level- while that may not translate exactly to street defense it is a pretty good indicator.

Also, there are videos of sports guys who handle themselves well on the streets: Ryan Hall innovated some of the most esoteric sport jiu jitsu and shaped the competition circuit with deep-half and 50/50 guard. When some nutjob got into an altercation with him and his family, he controlled and subdued the guy easily and didn't try to pull deep-half or anything like that. Simple take down to pin. The more I hear about the Helio side complain about street defense, the more I think they are constructing a straw man.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

I think that Martial Arts unfortunately has always been cultist in its behavior. The infighting between which styles is better probably goes back to ancient MMA in Greece(Pankration). I think Bruce Lee was ahead of his time when he proposed that he didn't longer believe in one style of fighting, but advocated cross training. That was essentially what Jet Kunn Do was (as I understand it).


When I look at Judo or Wrestling or Sambo, I see a lot of overlap. Different rulesets and niches, but it would be foolish to discredit the other styles. Pins or Ippon or submissions- Those are the details. Fighting in 100% sparring. That is what I think is so fascinating about grappling. That one can go at it 100% and try to destroy someone else, trying to choke them unconscious and break their limbs and it doesn't hurt anyone due to the tap.
That sort of 100% sparring is not sustainable in striking!




I too am puzzled with the snakeoil- But also outside of it. You occasionally see people who say that Wing Chun is too deadly to be used in MMA - or Krav Maga. Or hear people say that Judo or Wrestling doesn't work because they will just kick your knee and gorge out your eyes before you can do anything. Followed by hypothetical about aids needles, biting, multiple attackers and all that other jazz that forever muddies these discussions about fighting.
I also think the UFC fandom engulfs this behavior. Depending on the latest upset of a striker or grappler, or hybrid winning or losing in a shock, usually follows declarations of this or that martial arts being useless. What we've seen is that there is an incredible adaptation rate.

But at the same time, there are things that doesn't change all that much. I love this Judo instructional by Mifune- It's almost a hundred years old; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iXImGCb1G8

You recognize the techniques. Particularly in ground fighting "na waza"; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlFJuYEw-Hw < Waiter sweep, rear naked, , guillotine,scissor, mount, side control, kesa gatame, arm triangle. I mean.. even the crucifix. A modern flashy technique.

Finally home so I can see your gifs and videos and fuck yes. Those gifs are so good. Goddamn, grapple martial arts so cool. *eyes glaze over in awe*

That Newaza video is great and new to me. I've seen the Mifune video countless times. The Newaza vid is so eye opening. Fuck yes.

 

[Rawr Its Ry]

Thank you for this, at the moment the only jiu jitsu literature I have is the Ribeiro brother's book which is an instructional, so anytime I can read about bjj history im all for it.

Are there any actual books/ebooks that deals with something similar?

On a side note, also agreeing with what one person said - I don't really care for Rorion trying to sell his shit super hard, and how his kids do it too now, but I really respect Rener's teaching style ( minus the gu online blue belt) It made me happy knowing Rickson talked him out of that whole situation

 

[Measley]

I agree the IJF and the Olympics has ruined Judo but that does not make Jiu Jitsu superior to Judo especially since many Jiu Jitsu practioners cross train in Judo and find that it helps expand where BJJ is lacking.

The idea that BJJ is all you need is silly.

That really depends on what Bjj gym you go to. Many Bjj gyms teach stand up grappling and throws from Judo and Wrestling. Hell, even sport Bjj gyms should be teaching you stand up because sport Bjj starts from standing, and takedowns award points.

The difference is that Judo newaza is significantly lacking, and there's little self defense application to speak of. For example, because of sport Judo rules, Judoka don't how to maintain ground pressure or proper transitions because they get stood up after a short amount of time. So basically what happens is that Judo ground game amounts to obtaining the turtle position and stalling which any solid Bjj guy can crack open and choke them out.

Now you may think because of Judo's throws that they'd have an advantage over the Bjj guy in stand up. That isn't really the case either. Ankle picks, double leg takedowns, leg lock setups, and guard pulls utterly wreck Judo guys because they don't train to stop them. Why don't they train to stop them? Again, because of their rule set which makes all of those moves illegal in the sporting environment.

Also, sports BJJ and "self defense" BJJ are the same thing. Never mind that sports martial arts have shown to be more "effective" in fights since the sports environment has you constantly training with resistance against people regularly. It's the same shit, but just advertised that "sports" Jiu Jitsu is inferior even though many successful fighters have learned BJJ by way of "sports" Jiu Jitsu. Jiu Jitsu is Jiu Jitsu. Any other classification is a way to market and make more money. My professors gym has equal representation of "self defense" and sport. We win medals but we also learn how to get out of a bear hug and do judo throws (which you deem inferior). If the Helio side is so right then how come Gracie's aren't as dominant in BJJ as a whole anymore? The entire argument is crazytown and you're falling for the Kool Aid. Rener and his brother even agree that self defense BJJ takes you up to blue belt and that's it. If self defense BJJ was all you needed most of us would quit at purple. "Self defense BJJ" is dumb.

They don't dominate sport Bjj anymore because sport Bjj has evolved and self defense Bjj has mainly stayed the same. Do you see a lot of Berimbolos, Half Guards, Tornado Guards, and De La Rivas in MMA? You see a lot of that in sport Bjj, but the reason you don't see it in MMA is because if you try that crap you're going to get punched in the face and knocked out. You can apply the same principle to a street fight, which is why self defense Bjj focuses on closed guard and a few open guard methods.

Also your dig at Karate and other disciplines shows a lot of arrogance as well as ignorance. Look up Kyokushin, which you label as BS.

I have a black belt in Shotokan and a brown in Goju-Ryu, so trust me I'm speaking from experience. Kyokushin was a solid style back when Mas Oyama was running things. However like most MA (including Bjj) its been watered down for the masses.

 

[Baby Milo]

"Yoda" xD

coach getting love on neogaf

 

[Measley]

Every art has its limitations. BJJ training has become increasingly bound by sport rules, just as Judo before it. Every art has had its time in the sun when it comes to claims about "self defense." BJJ is having a bit of a run right now, but like all arts, it won't last. It's what makes martial arts so endlessly fascinating to me. It's constantly in flux.

Nothing is permanent in martial arts training. No technique. No art. No fighter. No method. No self-defense application. Nothing. It's always changing.

Except this Bjj run has been going for over 20 years now and is showing no sign of slowing down.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Thank you for this, at the moment the only jiu jitsu literature I have is the Ribeiro brother's book which is an instructional, so anytime I can read about bjj history im all for it.

Are there any actual books/ebooks that deals with something similar?

On a side note, also agreeing with what one person said - I don't really care for Rorion trying to sell his shit super hard, and how his kids do it too now, but I really respect Rener's teaching style ( minus the gu online blue belt) It made me happy knowing Rickson talked him out of that whole situation

Choque is super dry. It'd probably be best to read the Choque Sherdog thread for anything juicy. There's some other books but a lot of it is Gracie official stuff. The best medium is a mix of the two so you can get a better idea of the overall picture. Reila Gracie released Carlos, which is a book about her father Carlos Gracie. There's also The Gracie Way by Kid Peligro. I think there will be more stuff in the future with Choque and Gracie interviews as a guideline and basic source material.

 

[Baby Milo]

"Self defense BJJ" is dumb.

#FACTS

good luck on your first competition

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Except this Bjj run has been going for over 20 years now and is showing no sign of slowing down.

BJJ went from "the ultimate martial art" to "eh, it's pretty good but not mandatory or anything. Learn it if you wanna know how to defend against it I guess" in MMA in less a decade.

 

[Measley]

BJJ went from "the ultimate martial art" to "eh, it's pretty good but not mandatory or anything. Learn if it you wanna know how to defend against it I guess" in MMA in less a decade.

You're fooling yourself if you think any MMA fighter enters the octagon without Bjj training.

 

[TrAcEr_x90]

I did Muay Thai kickboxing for over 8 years. I started doing grappling/jiujitsu 2 years ago. The amount of fun I am having is immense, but sometimes its daunting how much there is to learn. It becomes a life long journey, if you want that brown/black belt. Even then, you arent close to the world elite blackbelts.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

You're fooling yourself if you think any MMA fighter enters the octagon without Bjj training.

Well, yeah. That doesn't mean it's on top. It's just another tool. Everyone knows BJJ in MMA, but mostly to defend against it. I also wasn't talking about modern MMA. I was also talking about Pride and how fighters started to fight it in less than a decade. BJJ isn't as dominant as you think. It's just another pillar of modern MMA. By the same token I guess Muay is on top because a lot of people have to know that as well? This is when we get into silly mental gymnastics.

I did Muay Thai kickboxing for over 8 years. I started doing grappling/jiujitsu 2 years ago. The amount of fun I am having is immense, but sometimes its daunting how much there is to learn. It becomes a life long journey, if you want that brown/black belt. Even then, you arent close to the world elite blackbelts.

I did Muay for two years. Tell me about it, friend.

 

[Measley]

Well, yeah. That doesn't mean it's on top. It's just another tool. Everyone knows BJJ in MMA, but mostly to defend against it. I also wasn't talking about modern MMA. I was also talking about Pride and how fighters started to fight it in less than a decade. BJJ isn't as dominant as you think. It's just another pillar of modern MMA. By the same token I guess Muay is on top because a lot of people have to know that as well? This is when we get into silly mental gymnastics.

Yeah, they started fighting it because they ALL learned it. If you enter MMA without Bjj training your going to get destroyed.

Your striking art of choice is optional (it's typically a form of kickboxing), but Jiujitsu training is mandatory.

If everyone is forced to learn a particular style in order to be competitive, how is that style NOT dominant?

BTW, What happened to your sport vs self defense argument? I was looking forward to your response.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Thank you for this, at the moment the only jiu jitsu literature I have is the Ribeiro brother's book which is an instructional, so anytime I can read about bjj history im all for it.

Are there any actual books/ebooks that deals with something similar?

On a side note, also agreeing with what one person said - I don't really care for Rorion trying to sell his shit super hard, and how his kids do it too now, but I really respect Rener's teaching style ( minus the gu online blue belt) It made me happy knowing Rickson talked him out of that whole situation

Er.

Forgot to add that this is probably the best overall place to start.

http://www.slideyfoot.com/1982/06/history-of-brazilian-jiu-jitsu-bjj.html

Is a Godsend.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

That really depends on what Bjj gym you go to. Many Bjj gyms teach stand up grappling and throws from Judo and Wrestling. Hell, even sport Bjj gyms should be teaching you stand up because sport Bjj starts from standing, and takedowns award points.

The difference is that Judo newaza is significantly lacking, and there's little self defense application to speak of. For example, because of sport Judo rules, Judoka don't how to maintain ground pressure or proper transitions because they get stood up after a short amount of time. So basically what happens is that Judo ground game amounts to obtaining the turtle position and stalling which any solid Bjj guy can crack open and choke them out.

Now you may think because of Judo's throws that they'd have an advantage over the Bjj guy in stand up. That isn't really the case either. Ankle picks, double leg takedowns, leg lock setups, and guard pulls utterly wreck Judo guys because they don't train to stop them. Why don't they train to stop them? Again, because of their rule set which makes all of those rules illegal in the sporting environment.

Okay, that's fair. I agree Judo lacks in newaza. My thing is that it feels disrespectful to say that Judo is inferior or a waste when I think that Judo and Jiu Jitsu are brother and sister. I think saying that Judo is inferior discredits what Judo has to offer. I basically look at Judo and Jiu Jitsu as different coins to the same thing.

But also, like I said before, I think gauging martial arts due to the "self defense" application is dumb. You really think an average person that grabs a black belt Judoka is going to be okay after a ippon on concrete? Dude.

They don't dominate sport Bjj anymore because sport Bjj has evolved and self defense Bjj has mainly stayed the same. Do you see a lot of Berimbolos, Half Guards, Tornado Guards, and De La Rivas in MMA? You see a lot of that in sport Bjj, but the reason you don't see it in MMA is because if you try that crap you're going to get punched in the face and knocked out. You can apply the same principle to a street fight, which is why self defense Bjj focuses on closed guard and a few open guard methods.

What about leglocks in MMA? I'm pretty sure that's that future of BJJ in MMA. Either way, no one is going to use a Berimbolo in a fight if they have sense, but it's crazy to think that someone who is trained in BJJ can't do a simple takedown -> mount -> pin to someone untrained in BJJ. You think someone who doesn't know BJJ is doing to do anything to me when I do an arm bar on them? Do you think sports Jiu Jitsu players skip basic things like mounting and side control and arm bars. It's just illogical. It also pokes a hole into your other argument "that BJJ is on top and has been for 20 years." If you think BJJ is the top martial art, surely you would think that basic type of Jiu Jitsu would be applicable in a street fight. Self defense and sports Jiu Jitsu practitioners both have the same base and that base is Jiu Jitsu. If what you said is true, and Jiu Jitsu is as dominant as you say it is, then surely a sports BJJ practicer can subdue an average person. Otherwise you've nullified your own argument that BJJ is dominant. If BJJ is dominant, BJJ should stand on its own whether sport or self defense. This point completely ignores the fact that self defense Jiu Jitsu is just basic Jiu Jitsu. There is no "pure" Jiu Jitsu. There's just Jiu Jitsu.

I have a black belt in Shotokan and a brown in Goju-Ryu, so trust me I'm speaking from experience. Kyokushin was a solid style back when Mas Oyama was running things. However like most MA (including Bjj) its been watered down for the masses.

Huh? Kyokushin is a brutal combat sport.

Dude.

Just because something is sport does not mean it's not self defense. Muay Thai is sport in Thailand and any reasonable person would agree that if push comes to shove, and someone tries to fight it out with me - a trained Muay Thai user - I can and know how to use the force in my body to fuck that person up.

Kyokushin is brutal, Mas Oyama or no.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MqYtOzLKes

 

[Measley]

Okay, that's fair. I agree Judo lacks in newaza. My thing is that it feels disrespectful to say that Judo is inferior or a waste when I think that Judo and Jiu Jitsu are brother and sister. I think saying that Judo is inferior discredits what Judo has to offer. I basically look at Judo and Jiu Jitsu as different coins to the same thing.

Except they're not.

Judo actively excludes alternative methods, and Bjj actively includes alternative methods. Essentially that means that if something is found to be superior, Bjj will replace their existing methodology to incorporate this new method. Judo will ignore the new method and keep doing what they've been doing.

Since you mentioned leg locks, let's talk about those. Masakazu Imanari developed a pretty kick ass method of leg lock takedowns from the standing position. Ryan Hall incorporated it into both his classes, as well as his MMA fights. A good friend of mine uses a few of those takedowns in class during rolling/sparring. If you do that in a Judo dojo, they'll scold you or throw you out. Why? Because leg locks are banned in Judo randori and competition and have been for 80 years.

Now, does any of that make Judo worthless? No. However, its limits does make it inferior to Bjj which has far less limits and is more open to new ideas.

But also, like I said before, I think gauging martial arts due to the "self defense" application is dumb. You really think an average person that grabs a black belt Judoka is going to be okay after a ippon on concrete? Dude.

Well that depends doesn't it? What if the Judoka throws the person and they end up both falling to the ground? Now they're in a scramble and the guy ends up on top of the Judoka and starts punching them in the face. What if the assailant has some wrestling/MMA experience and does a leg-based takedown on the Judoka? The Judoka has no idea how to defend against that because those type of takedowns are illegal in Judo competition, and are thus the counters of those takedowns largely untaught.

Bjj teaches you how to deal with both of those situations because it has a self defense core. Judo does not.

What about leg locks in MMA? I'm pretty sure that's that future of BJJ in MMA. Either way, no one is going to use a Berimbolo in a fight if they have sense, but it's crazy to think that someone who is trained in BJJ can't do a simple takedown -> mount -> pin to someone untrained in BJJ. You think someone who doesn't know BJJ is doing to do anything to me when I do an arm bar on them? Do you think sports Jiu Jitsu players skip basic things like mounting and side control and arm bars. It's just illogical. It also pokes a hole into your other argument "that BJJ is on top and has been for 20 years." If you think BJJ is the top martial art, surely you would think that basic type of Jiu Jitsu would be applicable in a street fight. Self defense and sports Jiu Jitsu practitioners both have the same base and that base is Jiu Jitsu. If what you said is true, and Jiu Jitsu is as dominant as you say it is, then surely a sports BJJ practicer can subdue an average person. Otherwise you've nullified your own argument that BJJ is dominant. If BJJ is dominant, BJJ should stand on its own.

Yes, but that wasn't your argument. You were asking why the Gracies aren't dominating sport Bjj. The reason why is that self defense Bjj is different from sport Bjj. While you're spending ample time perfecting your Del La Riva transitions, the self defense Bjj guy is learning how to stop a punch while he has someone on top of him/her in closed guard.

I also disagree that sport and self defense has the same base. The core fundamentals in self defense Bjj is based around countering grappling AND striking, the core fundamentals of sport Bjj is countering grappling only. Hence why you can come up with elaborate Guards and can ignore stand up almost entirely.

BTW, self defense based Bjj has quite a lot of throws and takedowns.

Huh? Kyokushin is a brutal combat sport.

Dude.

Just because something is sport does not mean it's not self defense. Muay Thai is sport in Thailand and any reasonable person would agree that if push comes to shove, and someone tries to fight it out with me - a trained Muay Thai user - I can and know how to use the force in my body to fuck that person up.

Kyokushin is brutal, Mas Oyama or no.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MqYtOzLKes

Keep in mind, I'm not saying that a martial athlete is incapable of defending themselves. As you say, a Muay Thai practitioner or a Boxer can really mess someone up. However, the difference is that those methods are limited by the rules of their respective sports. For example if a wrestler tackles a boxer, then that boxer is in a lot of trouble.

BTW, that video is irrelevant. MMA fighters who took Kyokushin at some point in their training doesn't say anything to the standard of training found in many commercial Kyokushin schools today. While Kyokushin is probably the most combative of the Karate styles, it's simply not up there with other modern striking styles. Frankly you're better off learning Muay Thai or Sanda.

 

[Brerlappin]

The snake oil is why I mostly ignore MMA and just focus on BJJ. I remember when Ronda lost and the amount of shit people slung at Judo. I...don't get it. The entire premise of "what's the best martial art" is so silly to me. It also feels like a lot of MMA fans care more about blood and spectacle than the technical aspects of each one. I dunno. I'm going off track.

I don't get how a lot of Jiu Jitsu users discredit Judo, especially ones like Helio Gracie. Surely they should be able to admit what they owe Judonand respect it as such, but a lot of them buy it as the supreme evolution - and thus obviously "superior" to Judo. I don't get it. Lots of ego going on when MA's are supposed to kill that very thing.

Alot of MMA fans are the "JUST BLEED" type of fans that dont care about martial arts and only watch for the KO. They arent real fans IMO. Like any popular sport, would you consider the thugs who went to Euro 2016 to start fights real football fans? No, just ignorant idiots.

I get that BJJ pretty much destroyed the majority of TMA's in the early days of UFC but theres always stuff that can be improved upon and BJJ definitely owes alot of its existence to Judo, regardless of what Helio says. I think the Gracies are kinda like the pop stars of BJJ, it existed in various forms before them but they just brought it to the masses and became the face of BJJ.

Ive been training BJJ this year too, glad to see a few other practitioners here. Our dojo doesnt seem super kool aid-ey, most of the people there are nice, doesnt seem to be too much ego floating around. Definitely prefer Gi to NoGi, im far too used to making my grips now and NoGi does seem to be more tailored to people who are training for MMA

 

[conman]

Another thing is where is the evidence there's a difference between the two? From my experience rolling with the rival "self defense" BJJ gym during Open Mat to gauge my progress. I've not seen anything remotely different in the two. From all the BJJ I've watched, and all the BJJ I've done all I'm seeing regarding self defense vs sport BJJ is an invisible boogeyman.

My point is a very different one. It's rare (at least in the US) to find anything except for competition-style BJJ. Even BJJ schools that say they teach self defense are primarily teaching competition-derived techniques. And in my experience, many techniques and families of techniques are no longer taught because they are illegal according to IBJJF rules. This has only become more true with time. That's why you're not seeing much difference between "sport" and "self-defense" BJJ.

 

[Vigilant Walrus]

It's interesting to see many different schools of thought on this. So many gyms also operate differently with their own philosophy. I've never trained with 10th Planet Jiu-Jitsu but it's fascinating to see someone taking it in other directions.
Eddie Bravo might be a weird person, but I think he is trying to do good.


The problem for the Gracies has been historically when they have made excuses about why they lost. Fair or not, it often makes people look like bad losers. Perhaps that has not been more true than with the history of Oswaldo Fadda - A man who deserves a lot more credit than he has gotten; http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2011/5/2...ldo-fadda-nova-uniao-and-non-gracie-jiu-jitsu

Helio invited Fadda and his students to a competition at the Gracie Academy. Fadda’s students defeated Helio’s, many of them using foot locks though one Fadda student did choke a Gracie student unconscious. While the Gracie’s scoffed at the use of footlocks, referring to it as a "suburban technique", they declared Fadda’s victory as a sign that Jiu-Jitsu belonged to everyone.

I think that is why peoples favorites gracies are usually Kron, Roger and Renzo - They've not been known to make excuses. Renzo in particularly has called his loss to Sakuraba, his greatest fight of his life.

 

[Vigilant Walrus]

My point is a very different one. It's rare (at least in the US) to find anything except for competition-style BJJ. Even BJJ schools that say they teach self defense, are primarily teaching competition-derived techniques. And in my experience, many techniques and families of techniques are no longer taught because they are illegal according to IBJJF rules.

That's why you're not seeing much difference. There isn't any.

In my gym, they encourage us those who seek self defense to cross train between the grappling classes and striking. Do some striking on the sides, learn to control the distance, some clinch, and then take some advanced MMA classes to tie the striking and grappling together.

In my gym we have MMA intro classes, but they don't seem effective to me. New people will show up but quickly fall apart. They progress very slowly and I wonder if it's because they don't have a base in anything, but is just sort of trying to learn grappling, submissions, takedowns, sweeps, striking and clinching all at once.

I had an argument about this with a friend who informed me that BJJ, Sambo, Judo was useless against his Krav Maga because eye gouges, groin kicks and aids needles! That discussion then turned into the classic jack of all trades versus the specialist. Do you become well rounded, versus becoming a high level in one area?

 

[conman]

In my gym, they encourage us those who seek self defense to cross train between the grappling classes and striking. Do some striking on the sides, learn to control the distance, some clinch, and then take some advanced MMA classes to tie the striking and grappling together.

In my gym we have MMA intro classes, but they don't seem effective to me. New people will show up but quickly fall apart. They progress very slowly and I wonder if it's because they don't have a base in anything, but is just sort of trying to learn grappling, submissions, takedowns, sweeps, striking and clinching all at once.

I had an argument about this with a friend who informed me that BJJ, Sambo, Judo was useless against his Krav Maga because eye gouges, groin kicks and aids needles! That discussion then turned into the classic jack of all trades versus the specialist. Do you become well rounded, versus becoming a high level in one area?

Exactly. And this opens up the huge can of worms about what exactly is meant by "self defense," which invariably leads to the unanswerable questions about which arts are "better" for self defense. Every dedicated practitioner of every art will nearly always claim that their art is the best self defense art, and they usually will derisively say that other arts are either "too traditional" or "too competition focused" to be useful in self defense. After years training in jiujitsu, BJJ broke my brain. Then when I started training Krav, my brain broke again. And so on. That's training.

There is no such thing as a "complete" self-defense art. IMO you can never recreate a realistic self defense situation in a gym/school. Every art has to make compromises in training. Every art is limited by rules (whether spoken or unspoken). There is no "better" art when it comes to self defense. Just look at the histories of the arts individually. This is what I meant by my comment above about martial arts histories being "90% myth and 10% narcissism." The longer you train, the more you'll see these cycles of dominant arts come and go. There are no new techniques, just new names and new schools.

Martial arts history is filled with legend, self-aggrandizement, myth, and misinformation in abundance. BJJ is no different. The version of the history of the art will shift depending on who is telling it. And often that history is about rationalizing why their particular branch of the art is superior to another (whether on "the street" or in the ring).

And there's a good bit of wrong information in the OP. Most egregiously, it's incorrect to say that Jiujitsu is derived from Judo (or vice versa). The more correct way to say this is that both Judo and Jiujitsu share a common lineage (along with Aikido). All three come from the same root art (or arts). The specialization on ground work by Brazilian judoka is just one among many stories of how these three arts have split, reformed, divided, etc. over the decades differently in different places.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Alot of MMA fans are the "JUST BLEED" type of fans that dont care about martial arts and only watch for the KO. They arent real fans IMO. Like any popular sport, would you consider the thugs who went to Euro 2016 to start fights real football fans? No, just ignorant idiots.

I get that BJJ pretty much destroyed the majority of TMA's in the early days of UFC but theres always stuff that can be improved upon and BJJ definitely owes alot of its existence to Judo, regardless of what Helio says. I think the Gracies are kinda like the pop stars of BJJ, it existed in various forms before them but they just brought it to the masses and became the face of BJJ.

Ive been training BJJ this year too, glad to see a few other practitioners here. Our dojo doesnt seem super kool aid-ey, most of the people there are nice, doesnt seem to be too much ego floating around. Definitely prefer Gi to NoGi, im far too used to making my grips now and NoGi does seem to be more tailored to people who are training for MMA

My thing with MMA is that I tried so hard to get it. I just don't. I feel like an exception in that MMA didn't inspire me to take Muay Thai classes or BJJ classes. I just wanted to learn a martial art. When I realized that I didn't like getting hit in my pretty face, I switched from Muay to grapple arts. lol MMA just doesn't interest me. I think the rule set limits my interest. Like, a three minute round and judges who have never grappled with someone before? LOL. Please. I actually agree with the Rorian on the UFC and how it became too much of a sports contest rather than being a martial arts showcase. When you stop Royce vs Dan Savern because it goes over time and you now think "grapple arts make these matches too long" then you've fucked up. I think balance should be struck between sport and actual martial element of martial arts and BJJ does this for me. Not to be disrespectful to MMA, but compare the level of grappling you see at Mundials, ADCC, or EBI to MMA. My thing is that even though it's true that many MMA fans just want to see blood, I think MMA itself is tailored towards spectacle than martial arts. The Gracie's originally made TUF to show off their art and many of Royce's opponents were handpicked. That element still seems to exist even today. So many people ask if I'm going to start doing MMA because I'm making tremendous progress as a white belt, and I feel like the only person whose interest in BJJ has nothing to do with MMA, but BJJ, and does not give a fuck about MMA.

Still watching UFC 200 tho and I've got a Fight Pass account for EBI and Pride.

My point is a very different one. It's rare (at least in the US) to find anything except for competition-style BJJ. Even BJJ schools that say they teach self defense are primarily teaching competition-derived techniques. And in my experience, many techniques and families of techniques are no longer taught because they are illegal according to IBJJF rules. This has only become more true with time. That's why you're not seeing much difference between "sport" and "self-defense" BJJ.

Yeah. Pretty much where I was going but you said it better than me.

It's interesting to see many different schools of thought on this. So many gyms also operate differently with their own philosophy. I've never trained with 10th Planet Jiu-Jitsu but it's fascinating to see someone taking it in other directions.
Eddie Bravo might be a weird person, but I think he is trying to do good.


The problem for the Gracies has been historically when they have made excuses about why they lost. Fair or not, it often makes people look like bad losers. Perhaps that has not been more true than with the history of Oswaldo Fadda - A man who deserves a lot more credit than he has gotten; http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2011/5/2...ldo-fadda-nova-uniao-and-non-gracie-jiu-jitsu


I think that is why peoples favorites gracies are usually Kron, Roger and Renzo - They've not been known to make excuses. Renzo in particularly has called his loss to Sakuraba, his greatest fight of his life.

The problem for many Gracie's is that they have often made claims about BJJ, such as being the ultimate martial art, so when they lose they have to double down on the rhetoric. And I'm so grateful for them sharing this with us, but I also wish they would be less controlling with their propaganda. I wish they'd be more open to celebrating other peoples contributions to Jiu Jitsu such as Oswaldo Fadda or Carlson Gracie. Or even Judo itself. As if Helio devised BJJ in a vacuum. Another problem are outright embellishments like Rickson's 400-0 record. The losses are definitely a big thing. Metamoris 3 Bravo rematch being a classic example.

Speaking of Metamoris and Eddie Bravo, I do think he's weird. I like what he's doing and I respect him a lot but the whole conspiracy theorist angle is too much for me, and I just want Jiu Jitsu.

 

[sixteen-bit]

Ding ding! I took this round!

(This reminds me of Laura Matsuda)

A GRAP-PLING BUD?

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

In my gym, they encourage us those who seek self defense to cross train between the grappling classes and striking. Do some striking on the sides, learn to control the distance, some clinch, and then take some advanced MMA classes to tie the striking and grappling together.

In my gym we have MMA intro classes, but they don't seem effective to me. New people will show up but quickly fall apart. They progress very slowly and I wonder if it's because they don't have a base in anything, but is just sort of trying to learn grappling, submissions, takedowns, sweeps, striking and clinching all at once.

I had an argument about this with a friend who informed me that BJJ, Sambo, Judo was useless against his Krav Maga because eye gouges, groin kicks and aids needles! That discussion then turned into the classic jack of all trades versus the specialist. Do you become well rounded, versus becoming a high level in one area?

Same. MMA is an option at my place and we are highly suggested to cross train if self defense is what interests us. MMA classes burn people out too. BJJ has a survivors thing already but the MMA classes are on another level of drop out.

Due to the fact that my Prof. is also a multi-dan decorated Judoka, there's not a lot of BJJ worship there. There's no picture of Helio or Carlos on the walls. Just flags and awards. I like it. Nice, simple, and separated from dogma. I'm going to miss it when I move.

 

[Brerlappin]

My thing with MMA is that I tried so hard to get it. I just don't. I feel like an exception in that MMA didn't inspire me to take Muay Thai classes or BJJ classes. I just wanted to learn a martial art. When I realized that I didn't like getting hit in my pretty face, I switched from Muay to grapple arts. lol MMA just doesn't interest me. I think the rule set limits my interest. Like, a three minute round and judges who have never grappled with someone before? LOL. Please. I actually agree with the Rorian on the UFC and how it became too much of a sports contest rather than being a martial arts showcase. When you stop Royce vs Dan Savern because it goes over time and you now think "grapple arts make these matches too long" then you've fucked up. I think balance should be struck between sport and actual martial element of martial arts and BJJ does this for me. Not to be disrespectful to MMA, but compare the level of grappling you see at Mundials, ADCC, or EBI to MMA. My thing is that even though it's true that many MMA fans just want to see blood, I think MMA itself is tailored towards spectacle than martial arts. The Gracie's originally made TUF to show off their art and many of Royce's opponents were handpicked. That element still seems to exist even today. So many people ask if I'm going to start doing MMA because I'm making tremendous progress as a white belt, and I feel like the only person whose interest in BJJ has nothing to do with MMA, but BJJ, and does not give a fuck about MMA.

Still watching UFC 200 tho and I've got a Fight Pass account for EBI and Pride.



Yeah. Pretty much where I was going but you said it better than me.

In that respect its a bit similar to the comparison between Boxing and MMA. Most accomplished boxers would wipe the floor with the entire roster of the UFC in a boxing match. Alot of mixed martial artists would probably fall into the jack of all trades category because you have to be so well rounded in MMA nowadays that they cross train in BJJ/Judo/MT/Boxing and maybe even get Ido Portal to give you some fuckin movement and pool noodle training.

Im a huge MMA fan, but that wasnt my sole reason for starting BJJ. Ive always been interested in martial arts. I did Karate as a kid in the 80s (like we all did, thanks Karate Kid), did some TKD in my 20's, then in an effort to get fit and healthy took up some Boxing classes a few years back. That led to some MMA classes (and like yourself, i didnt like getting hit in the face so gave it a rest pretty quick). I took up BJJ as i just love learning new things and getting fit while doing it. Im a gym member but that only does so much for me. Im not doing BJJ to get into MMA or even to compete in BJJ, i just want to learn an effective, fun, martial art that isnt going to bust my face every class.

I think alot of the issues with TMA's is how theyre taught. I look back at my TKD classes and honestly it was pure fucking garbage. I got to yellow belt in TKD and probably wouldnt have been able to defend myself from a stiff breeze. I dont think i ever even broke a sweat in class. All we'd do is patterns (or katas), and that was it. As a martial art if you wanted to use it in a self defense scenario, it was fucking useless. I worked with a guy who was doing aikido for like 8 years and was posting pictures of himself on facebook doing his monkeys paw poses or crane style stance or whatever, and you know this dude would not stand a chance in a real fight. Hed stand on one leg with his arms in the air, then get swarmed to the ground and submitted in seconds. Thats why i think Judo and BJJ are amazing martial arts. Fighting against an opponent who is resisting 100%, you get a feel of how it is to be in a real fight, and to try and remain calm under extreme pressure (sometimes literally). Wether its "the ultimate martial art" or not, im glad BJJ came along and pretty much destroyed the likes of Kaiai or Reiki masters and all that other 10th dan Black Belt in Bullshido crap.

But for my money, the greatest self defence is either run away, or learn to box.