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The history of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is fascinating

StMeph

Member
This is pretty extensively documented in a series of books: Choque, now through Volume 3 (1999). I haven't read all of it yet.

The Gracies weren't the only ones to learn from Maeda during his trip through Brazil, and if I recall correctly they were basically only taught up to a purple/blue level before leaving formal instruction and then just training on their own to figure things out. The best proof of this insular training was the Gracie Gift guard pass. Still, they used their family connections and other tactics like picking street fights and challenging other dojos to build their name and reputation. In this sense they were supreme marketers.

Judo and Jiu Jitsu would have been the same thing 50 years ago, but the IOC has dramatically warped Judo into the sport it is today. And Jiu Jitsu has taken its own evolution to de-emphasize the standup despite all competitions starting from standing.

Most people, especially outside of Brazil, trace their BJJ lineage to the early Gracies simply because the other other branches from Maeda's camp, like Fadda, aren't as well established or available.
 
In that respect its a bit similar to the comparison between Boxing and MMA. Most accomplished boxers would wipe the floor with the entire roster of the UFC in a boxing match. Alot of mixed martial artists would probably fall into the jack of all trades category because you have to be so well rounded in MMA nowadays that they cross train in BJJ/Judo/MT/Boxing and maybe even get Ido Portal to give you some fuckin movement and pool noodle training.

Im a huge MMA fan, but that wasnt my sole reason for starting BJJ. Ive always been interested in martial arts. I did Karate as a kid in the 80s (like we all did, thanks Karate Kid), did some TKD in my 20's, then in an effort to get fit and healthy took up some Boxing classes a few years back. That led to some MMA classes (and like yourself, i didnt like getting hit in the face so gave it a rest pretty quick). I took up BJJ as i just love learning new things and getting fit while doing it. Im a gym member but that only does so much for me. Im not doing BJJ to get into MMA or even to compete in BJJ, i just want to learn an effective, fun, martial art that isnt going to bust my face every class.

I think alot of the issues with TMA's is how theyre taught. I look back at my TKD classes and honestly it was pure fucking garbage. I got to yellow belt in TKD and probably wouldnt have been able to defend myself from a stiff breeze. I dont think i ever even broke a sweat in class. All we'd do is patterns (or katas), and that was it. As a martial art if you wanted to use it in a self defense scenario, it was fucking useless. I worked with a guy who was doing aikido for like 8 years and was posting pictures of himself on facebook doing his monkeys paw poses or crane style stance or whatever, and you know this dude would not stand a chance in a real fight. Hed stand on one leg with his arms in the air, then get swarmed to the ground and submitted in seconds. Thats why i think Judo and BJJ are amazing martial arts. Fighting against an opponent who is resisting 100%, you get a feel of how it is to be in a real fight, and to try and remain calm under extreme pressure (sometimes literally). Wether its "the ultimate martial art" or not, im glad BJJ came along and pretty much destroyed the likes of Kaiai or Reiki masters and all that other 10th dan Black Belt in Bullshido crap.

But for my money, the greatest self defence is either run away, or learn to box.

Hear, hear. I couldn't handle getting my face busted so I just switched. Originally I got into Muay Thai to get fit but now I'm doing BJJ and I think it may be lifelong. They had a partner pin me and I had no idea how come I felt so weak. I couldn't get them off me. I had to know how they were doing it. What was the secret? How do I get them off? I was addicted from the start. Before this I had zero interest in BJJ. I just took a class to try it and experience it. I signed up the second my first class ended.

I think you're giving TMA's too little credit. Not all TMA's are equal. I never did TKD, but I did do a form of Shaolin Kung Fu and...it was exhausting. Not like BJJ but it was. We really worked up a sweat in those classes and they were some of the most fit and coordinated people I ever met. I've also done and still practice Tai Chi and I find its meditative qualities to be useful for everyone. I think people undersell TMA's and their benefits because different people have different expectations on martial arts. Some people think MA's are only for self defense and I think this colors their views on this a bit. So many people want different things from martial arts. I also think that people forget that there's also a cultural and spiritual element at play in TMA's, depending on the art, and to assume that every MA should be strictly for combat is regressive.

I'm glad BJJ exposes some of the bullshit in TMA's like Kiai bs. My problem is when it feels like it's detrimental to the growing of Jiu Jitsu or when it attracts a certain type of person that constantly joins up my dojo that thinks that as soon as they start taking classes they'll have become invincible because they'll have learned the "the ultimate martial art". This is why I hate that stuff so much. The kind of rhetoric attracts a certain breed of practitioner that I just can't stand. Thankfully most of them have dropped out after mere weeks so far.
 

StMeph

Member
TMAs are bad mostly in the way that they train. There's basically no resistance and nothing except rote forms. There's no real practice. Any discipline in which you can spar and actually practice technique will be effective if there's enough time and dedication. The only additional benefit of BJJ is that it's less impactful so you can go 100% and still keep going. Resistance in training is the only important part to making it useful.
 
TMAs are bad mostly in the way that they train. There's basically no resistance and nothing except rote forms. There's no real practice. Any discipline in which you can spar and actually practice technique will be effective if there's enough time and dedication. The only additional benefit of BJJ is that it's less impactful so you can go 100% and still keep going. Resistance in training is the only important part to making it useful.

Yes. I mentioned earlier that sports and competition based arts that emphasize resistance are going to teach you basic ways to defend yourself. These tend to be things like BJJ, Judo, Kyokushin, Sambo, Wrestling, Sanda, Muay Thai...these are all pretty good for those purposes if self defense is important to you.

TMA's are only bad if defending yourself is what you're going for though. The idea that they're useless because they won't help you defend yourself is only a problem if you come in with the expectation that they will help you defend yourself. But this also depends on the art and how it's advertised. I know multiple people who do Kung Fu who have zero interest in learning to defend themselves and many haven't remotely bought into the idea that they *are* learning to defend themselves. They do it because they like it. I think why you practice is more important than what you practice I guess.

You can find TMA's useless for your own aims. Whether they work for you or not, I think that TMA's that aren't selling falsehood should at least be respected.

As for Choque, I mention it multiple times in the OP and it's detailed in the links I posted.
 

ido

Member
I've been training BJJ for 16 years now, and it's always so fun to dive into the history, so I appreciate this post.

From the time I've been in it, at least from what I've seen, it is a lot more commercialized and people are being ranked a lot faster than they were even a decade ago.

As far as history, check out the Oswalda Fadda lineage, a non-gracie branch of BJJ that started back to the days of Maeda and Franca. Most people just know Maeda>Carlos>the rest... but Maeda also taught Franca, who taught Fadda, making that the only non-gracie lineage that came directly from Maeda. Edit: And I see it's already been mentioned here, so that is cool.

Pretty neat stuff. Rolls is probably my favorite to read about and watch videos about.
 

conman

Member
TMA's are only bad if defending yourself is what you're going for though. The idea that they're useless because they won't help you defend yourself is only a problem if you come in with the expectation that they will help you defend yourself. But this also depends on the art and how it's advertised. I know multiple people who do Kung Fu who have zero interest in learning to defend themselves and many haven't remotely bought into the idea that they *are* learning to defend themselves. They do it because they like it. I think why you practice is more important than what you practice I guess.
Yes and no. It's also worth remembering that today's "traditional martial arts" were yesterday's "self defense arts." It's a natural cycle that's been happening for centuries, if not millennia. And it all comes down to application and training style. I began in the traditional arts (as a very young kid), and even though I've been training in more modern/applied arts for the past 20 years (including BJJ), those traditional techniques still work from time to time. It all depends on how good your training was and how good your brain and body are at understanding those traditional techniques well enough to know their application.

If you study the origins of any so-called "new" technique or position, you will almost always find that it comes from someone discovering a "traditional" technique and applying it to sparring or competition. Like all martial arts, even modern sport or self-defense arts get rigid over time. That's how they become "traditional" arts. The thing that keeps them new and relevant, counter-intuitively, is digging into and applying traditional techniques. I love looking at old martial arts manuals and watching very old martial arts films and seeing how "modern" some of those old techniques are!

From the time I've been in it, at least from what I've seen, it is a lot more commercialized and people are being ranked a lot faster than they were even a decade ago.
Yup. This is yet another thing that makes BJJ just the latest version of a very old cycle. An art gets popular, commercialized, and watered down over time (other than a handful of schools who keep up the "old" way--which is exactly how you end up with the traditional arts). This has happened to Jiujitsu, to Judo, to Karate, and to Taekwondo. And now we're starting to see it happen to BJJ. Something else will be next.

For better or for worse, high-level competition (not self defense) seems to be the one thing that can keep a fighting art flexible and modern--e.g. boxing, wrestling, Judo, Taekwondo, BJJ.
 
Another thing is the classification of TMA. Is TKD really a TMA? Isn't it like 60 years old? When I think of a traditonal martial art I think of original Japanese Ju Jutsu or Greco Roman wrestling or boxing or something. So when people say TMA's are bullshit I just scratch my head in confusion. Muay Thai is hundreds of years old. How is it not a TMA? This is why I think most people don't even know what they mean when they're labeling these things.

Most martial arts practiced today are modern. It seems most martial arts die out. It seems like the what many consider traditional martial arts aren't really that old or even traditional. Kung Fu is a great example. Most Kung Fu has been lost through government crackdown or in some cases like the Shaolin, were burned to the ground. Sometimes both.
 

conman

Member
Another thing is the classification of TMA. Is TKD really a TMA? Isn't it like 60 years old? When I think of a traditonal martial art I think of original Japanese Ju Jutsu or Greco Roman wrestling or boxing or something. So when people say TMA's are bullshit I just scratch my head in confusion. Muay Thai is hundreds of years old. How is it not a TMA? This is why I think most people don't even know what they mean when they're labeling these things.

Most martial arts practiced today are modern. It seems most martial arts die out. It seems like the what many consider traditional martial arts aren't really that old or even traditional. Kung Fu is a great example. Most Kung Fu has been lost through government crackdown or in some cases like the Shaolin, were burned to the ground. Sometimes both.
Totally! This is exactly why I am so skeptical of martial arts histories.

Many arts claim a very old lineage, but are in fact not much older than the 1960s or '70s. I don't think the thing that makes the traditional arts "traditional" is their actual age. It's their philosophy. It's similar to when someone is said to have "traditional values." Those values aren't actually very old, but the point is that there is a conservative "traditionalism" to their philosophy. Traditional arts attempt to preserve (however falsely) a sense of consistency in technique and training that they claim originates in some much older point of origin. The fact that these claims are almost always false doesn't change the fact that these styles are traditional. It's a philosophy, not a historical truth (a lot like religion, actually). Individual techniques, positions, movements, etc. might be very old, but not the arts themselves.

BJJ is not much different in age than most other high-profile martial arts. And its history has more in common with other arts than many practitioners would like to think. It's not that exceptional. The far more interesting thing about the history of BJJ is how it, rather than other arts, became so central to MMA. It isn't much more "practical" than other arts. And it's no more "modern" than other arts. But it proved very well suited to the kinds of competitive fighting and ring rules that MMA cultivated. That's a history I'd like to read.
 
I find it interesting to see people expand and change things. There is a big push to bring BJJ to Africa right now. It's really fascinating, because wrestling is a big deal in Senegal already, and some of their fighters look really strong.
There is a interesting doc on it called rollin in Dakar; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fI0fccDZ64Y



I think it's fascinating just watching the different styles come out at play no matter how or who. It really is something for everyone. young, old, men, women, big, small.

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There is just so much diversity to the entire thing. It's like in Yoga. Your body composition in part is what makes your game uniquely your own. No two people roll exactly the same way. I find that fascinating.
 
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Yes, yes, YES. Bend that arm, bb.

We could have a grapple arts OT, but it'd just be a few of us I'd expect lol. I go to Jiu Jitsu tomorrow and I wish I it were today thanks to that post. lol
 
For more information on Jiu Jitsu, check out these movies free on Youtube.

Jiu-Jitsu VS The World

Roll: Jiu Jitsu in Sol-Cal

Totally! This is exactly why I am so skeptical of martial arts histories.

Many arts claim a very old lineage, but are in fact not much older than the 1960s or '70s. I don't think the thing that makes the traditional arts "traditional" is their actual age. It's their philosophy. It's similar to when someone is said to have "traditional values." Those values aren't actually very old, but the point is that there is a conservative "traditionalism" to their philosophy. Traditional arts attempt to preserve (however falsely) a sense of consistency in technique and training that they claim originates in some much older point of origin. The fact that these claims are almost always false doesn't change the fact that these styles are traditional. It's a philosophy, not a historical truth (a lot like religion, actually). Individual techniques, positions, movements, etc. might be very old, but not the arts themselves.

BJJ is not much different in age than most other high-profile martial arts. And its history has more in common with other arts than many practitioners would like to think. It's not that exceptional. The far more interesting thing about the history of BJJ is how it, rather than other arts, became so central to MMA. It isn't much more "practical" than other arts. And it's no more "modern" than other arts. But it proved very well suited to the kinds of competitive fighting and ring rules that MMA cultivated. That's a history I'd like to read.

Even then, I think most people classify traditional martial arts because that aren't because for some reason they specific ideas on what a traditional martial art entails. Often it feels like TMA really just means Asian to some people. Or anything that doesn't have hard, rigorous competitive based resistance training is a traditional martial art.

What I find most fascinating about BJJ is how goddamn recent most of the development of it is. Like I said earlier, comparing Helio do BJJ to watching Roll's and the guys roll is insane. It looks like a completely martial art to me. Effectively, the BJJ as we know it now is only 40 or so years old. To me that's crazy due to how advanced it already is now. As people like Bravo expand upon it, how diverse will it be in one hundred years?
 
How much time do you guys invest weekly on your training?

My lessons are normally an hour and a half. I often stay behind to work on something I don't understand or just want to improve and the teacher is glad to help. So sometimes an additional thirty minutes. That's two hours. I do three classes a week, so that's 6 hours a week in class. When I get to blue I'm going to up it to four days a week. For now, I don't want to burn myself out. I'm occasionally going a fourth day already because competition is ramping up, and I want to do well. So recently I spend as much as 8 hours a week training.

Every day I stretch and practice shrimping and rolling to see if I have the movement right. Really easy to fuck up, so much better to practice when not at class.
 

conman

Member
How much time do you guys invest weekly on your training?
Depends on where I am and what's going on in my life. I've had stretches of years where I train for 15-20 hours a week, and other stretches where I'm training for only 5 hours a week. I move a lot, so it really depends on the quality of students I find and the commitment of the school to training and my own schedule. Right now, I'm at a happy medium of 10 hours of training a week supplemented by 2-3 hours of cardio per week plus one session of yoga.

What I find most fascinating about BJJ is how goddamn recent most of the development of it is. Like I said earlier, comparing Helio do BJJ to watching Roll's and the guys roll is insane. It looks like a completely [different] martial art to me.
Absolutely. Coincidentally, along those exact lines, I just read this today: https://www.jiujitsutimes.com/jiu-jitsu-black-belt-demotes-purple-belt/

And as you and others have pointed out above, most of the major martial arts only can be traced back to sometime after WWII. Before WWII, most of these arts looked radically different. Most of what we now call "Kung Fu" or "Taekwondo" or "Jiujitsu" was assembled in the 1960s. And as someone who spent many years training in Olympic-style TKD, I can say that TKD (at least WTF/Olympic style) looks totally different today from where it was just ten years ago. As in BJJ, the increased focus on competition has had some rapid and radical effects on technique and training.

Effectively, the BJJ as we know it now is only 40 or so years old. To me that's crazy due to how advanced it already is now. As people like Bravo expand upon it, how diverse will it be in one hundred years?
IMO martial arts don't get "better" with time; they simply change. Sometimes that's to adapt to the times, sometimes to specific student populations, sometimes to competition rules, and sometimes they adapt just because one instructor's style is different from her/his instructor's style (multiplied by multiple generations of instructors).

It's that constant change that is one of the big draws of training for me. I've been training and teaching martial arts for over 30 years now, and I hope to train for at least another 30. And I know that I won't be training the same way in 10 or 20 or 30 years that I am now, nor will the arts I now know be the same in the future. I want to keep learning and adapting as the arts do.

Anyhow, happy rolling everyone.
 
How much time do you guys invest weekly on your training?

Between work, family, and my normal gym routine that im not willing to scarifice (keeps my cardio in good shape and its got great facilities like battle ropes and sleds), i can only realistically do BJJ twice a week for an hour. I usually do fundamentals on tues and thurs, but im thinking of ditching the tuesday class and jsut doing Thurs fundamentals and Saturday morning open mat. The open mat class is great because hardly anyone goes to it except upper belts. So its a great chance to roll with higher ups and learn from them while they smash you repeatedly. At the last fundamentals class i was at a couple of new, overly aggressive WB's really ruined it for me too so if i can avoid them, the better
 
Open mat is the best.

Ask your professor is she or he is okay with you visiting a rival dojo and doing open mat there. You can learn some new things that way.
 

ido

Member
Right now in life I only get about 3-5 hours of training in per week. I've been at it for 16 years so I admit I'm really lazy now, and prefer to just roll/open mat. I never pretended that I would ever be a world champion, and for me it's a hobby that I don't ever plan on leaving- but I just can't take it as seriously as a lot of people do.

I've seen dozens upon dozen of people start taking classes, get extremely gung-ho about it and begin to incorporate BJJ into every aspect of their life. It's all they talk about online, it's all they wear, they get the tattoos, they buy 30 different $500 gis, etc. Unfortunately people like that are hard to keep, and eventually burn out and we never see them again.

So to anyone starting, do let yourself enjoy it- but be careful not to burn yourself out on it. It's not going anywhere. Take it slow and steady and enjoy the ride, because most people that stick around do so because they just love the camaraderie, the workout and the art. Don't let it consume you too much and do like Rickson says, flow with the go.
 
Right now in life I only get about 3-5 hours of training in per week. I've been at it for 16 years so I admit I'm really lazy now, and prefer to just roll/open mat. I never pretended that I would ever be a world champion, and for me it's a hobby that I don't ever plan on leaving- but I just can't take it as seriously as a lot of people do.

I've seen dozens upon dozen of people start taking classes, get extremely gung-ho about it and begin to incorporate BJJ into every aspect of their life. It's all they talk about online, it's all they wear, they get the tattoos, they buy 30 different $500 gis, etc. Unfortunately people like that are hard to keep, and eventually burn out and we never see them again.

So to anyone starting, do let yourself enjoy it- but be careful not to burn yourself out on it. It's not going anywhere. Take it slow and steady and enjoy the ride, because most people that stick around do so because they just love the camaraderie, the workout and the art. Don't let it consume you too much and do like Rickson says, flow with the go.

I think alot of people fall into that trap. Im guilty of it to a lesser extent. I have shared a few class photos on facebook, and i may own a t-shirt with the Gracie logo on it. But it is just a hobby to me. Its something fun and unusual to do, something challenging. But im not "all about that life" and trying to convince everyone i meet to come to BJJ classes, and only a couple of people in work even know i train.
To be honest id be mortified to be getting tattoos and bragging about it and all that only to jack it in after a few months. Cause being brutally honest, quitting is never far from my mind when i get hurt or when i read stories about people needing ACL surgery or whatever. I just have to force myself to keep going.
 

StMeph

Member
Right now in life I only get about 3-5 hours of training in per week. I've been at it for 16 years so I admit I'm really lazy now, and prefer to just roll/open mat. I never pretended that I would ever be a world champion, and for me it's a hobby that I don't ever plan on leaving- but I just can't take it as seriously as a lot of people do.

3-5 hours a week is a pretty reasonable number for a normal person who works a job and treats BJJ as a hobby/exercise. Anything more than 8ish hours a week I would consider pretty hardcore.
 

ido

Member
3-5 hours a week is a pretty reasonable number for a normal person who works a job and treats BJJ as a hobby/exercise. Anything more than 8ish hours a week I would consider pretty hardcore.

Definitely, I would say it's above average for most people. I just really enjoy open mat so I tend to go hang around there even more than I do class itself, and our open mats end up turning into a BBQ cookout sometimes so it's just hanging out and wrasslin'

I know we're all supposed to love drilling technique, but I just... don't anymore. I'm content just rolling the rest of my life. I'm not even really concerned about getting better anymore.
 
Right now in life I only get about 3-5 hours of training in per week. I've been at it for 16 years so I admit I'm really lazy now, and prefer to just roll/open mat. I never pretended that I would ever be a world champion, and for me it's a hobby that I don't ever plan on leaving- but I just can't take it as seriously as a lot of people do.

I've seen dozens upon dozen of people start taking classes, get extremely gung-ho about it and begin to incorporate BJJ into every aspect of their life. It's all they talk about online, it's all they wear, they get the tattoos, they buy 30 different $500 gis, etc. Unfortunately people like that are hard to keep, and eventually burn out and we never see them again.

So to anyone starting, do let yourself enjoy it- but be careful not to burn yourself out on it. It's not going anywhere. Take it slow and steady and enjoy the ride, because most people that stick around do so because they just love the camaraderie, the workout and the art. Don't let it consume you too much and do like Rickson says, flow with the go.

Yup. I'm extremely aware of this and brought it up earlier.

Don't burn yourself out if you're just starting. Just buy a gi and go one to three times a week. If you can, I suggest three. I know white belts that went four or five times a week and burned out. Give your body time to recover. This is still new to your body. When you've advanced a belt maybe look into going four times a week. There's no need to buy a Shoyroll gi out the gate and go full on BJJ lifestyle. Research its history, watch matches when big events happen, go to class, eat acai. But don't go to hard too fast. Already seen that happen multiple times from fellow new people and I'm almost the only person who has stayed since starting.

If you want to do Jiu Jitsu be aware of why you're doing it.

Right now my goal is survival and learning the rest of Jiu Jitsu ABC's.

I think alot of people fall into that trap. Im guilty of it to a lesser extent. I have shared a few class photos on facebook, and i may own a t-shirt with the Gracie logo on it. But it is just a hobby to me. Its something fun and unusual to do, something challenging. But im not "all about that life" and trying to convince everyone i meet to come to BJJ classes, and only a couple of people in work even know i train.
To be honest id be mortified to be getting tattoos and bragging about it and all that only to jack it in after a few months. Cause being brutally honest, quitting is never far from my mind when i get hurt or when i read stories about people needing ACL surgery or whatever. I just have to force myself to keep going.

How have you gotten hurt? I've been lucky there so far.

ACL stories? Sheesh. :( Even more reason to take it easy when starting out. You're going to get hurt eventually if you're rolling too much too soon.
 

StMeph

Member
Once a week doesn't get you anywhere. Twice a week will see some progress, but it will be tough. Three times a week is a nice sweet spot for steady improvement early on and still leaving plenty of room for other things and rest. More than that starts to be pretty strenuous, and should be added slowly.
 
Once a week doesn't get you anywhere. Twice a week will see some progress, but it will be tough. Three times a week is a nice sweet spot for steady improvement early on and still leaving plenty of room for other things and rest. More than that starts to be pretty strenuous, and should be added slowly.

If you're busy, once a week is better than zero. When your schedule is better, you can add more days. I'd rather someone do one day of Jiu Jitsu a week than zero.

Why do most of your posts feel like you're talking at people rather than to?
 

StMeph

Member
If you're busy, once a week is better than zero. When your schedule is better, you can add more days. I'd rather someone do one day of Jiu Jitsu a week than zero.

I agree that 1 is better than 0, but it's not about conquering Pans or Mundials. Learning anything is going to be slow and inconsistent at 1-2 hours just once a week. It's the same advice I've given to other new people, because new people want to see progress, too. 2-3/week really is the best starting point. Add after that becomes manageable.

Why do most of your posts feel like you're talking at people rather than to?

This is probably a larger symptom of my general behavior.
 
How have you gotten hurt? I've been lucky there so far.

ACL stories? Sheesh. :( Even more reason to take it easy when starting out. You're going to get hurt eventually if you're rolling too much too soon.

Oh I just had a bad couple rolls last week, not injured badly or anything just sore as shit from being thrown around during a roll by a dude who outweighed me be easy 70-80lbs. I'm tall and broad, and in good shape fitness wise but I had no answer for this behemoth slamming me around. And I had a fingernail half ripped off too haha...so yeah that class had me questioning what the hell I was doing! But I just sucked it up and went back anyway.

I honestly think reading too much about BJJ can be counterproductive because if you read the Reddit BJJ sub you'd swear people tear their ACL's every class
 

conman

Member
Once a week doesn't get you anywhere. Twice a week will see some progress, but it will be tough. Three times a week is a nice sweet spot for steady improvement early on and still leaving plenty of room for other things and rest. More than that starts to be pretty strenuous, and should be added slowly.

If you're busy, once a week is better than zero. When your schedule is better, you can add more days. I'd rather someone do one day of Jiu Jitsu a week than zero.
To split the difference, I'd say this:

1-2 times a week: Beginners will learn basics. Everyone else will maintain. More advanced players probably won't slip other than in cardio and general strength.

2-3 times a week: Great for beginners. You will learn the broad strokes of the game. For more advanced people, this is great for maintenance and slow-paced learning.

4+ times a week: Ideal. Beginners will learn very rapidly (but can be prone to burnout). Instructors will also learn rapidly at this rate too (anyone who has taught knows what this feels like). Advanced folks will keep upping their game, though at a slower pace than beginners.

But this also doesn't take into account the quality of instruction (much more important for advanced students), the focus and talent of the student (some people just never stop talking or taking breaks, and some come in with a strong background in wrestling or Judo), the overall training environment (having a community of committed students who want to help each other is huge), or the length and type of training (drills v sparring v technique). The higher the quality of these things, the more efficient and effective your training will be--even in fewer and shorter chunks of time.
 
I agree that 1 is better than 0, but it's not about conquering Pans or Mundials. Learning anything is going to be slow and inconsistent at 1-2 hours just once a week. It's the same advice I've given to other new people, because new people want to see progress, too. 2-3/week really is the best starting point. Add after that becomes manageable.



This is probably a larger symptom of my general behavior.

I mean, you won't find disagreement from me. I think 3 is ideal for a beginner going from my own experiences as a white belt. But if someone really wants to do BJJ and can only come once a week, I think they should still come.

And don't worry about it. I was just curious. lol You're good.

To split the difference, I'd say this:

1-2 times a week: Beginners will learn basics. Everyone else will maintain. More advanced players probably won't slip other than in cardio and general strength.

2-3 times a week: Great for beginners. You will learn the broad strokes of the game. For more advanced people, this is great for maintenance and slow-paced learning.

4+ times a week: Ideal. Beginners will learn very rapidly (but can be prone to burnout). Instructors will also learn rapidly at this rate too (anyone who has taught knows what this feels like). Advanced folks will keep upping their game, though at a slower pace than beginners.

But this also doesn't take into account the quality of instruction (much more important for advanced students), the focus and talent of the student (some people just never stop talking or taking breaks, and some come in with a strong background in wrestling or Judo), the overall training environment (having a community of committed students who want to help each other is huge), or the length and type of training (drills v sparring v technique). The higher the quality of these things, the more efficient and effective your training will be--even in fewer and shorter chunks of time.

For sure.

I think a fourth day is incredibly useful for growth but at the same time, should be slowly added. I think if possible, go the occasional fourth day and see how you like it. Just see it as extra homework or something. Maybe add the fourth day once a week every month, and see what happens during that week. Once I get to blue I'm adding a fourth week permanently.

Oh I just had a bad couple rolls last week, not injured badly or anything just sore as shit from being thrown around during a roll by a dude who outweighed me be easy 70-80lbs. I'm tall and broad, and in good shape fitness wise but I had no answer for this behemoth slamming me around. And I had a fingernail half ripped off too haha...so yeah that class had me questioning what the hell I was doing! But I just sucked it up and went back anyway.

I honestly think reading too much about BJJ can be counterproductive because if you read the Reddit BJJ sub you'd swear people tear their ACL's every class

LOL.

Most of the people I roll with are fit upper belts since so many of my fellow white belts dropped out and quit. Have you tried telling them to go a bit more easy? I've learned that being overly aggressive does jack all for my rolling and takes too much energy.
 
Most of the people I roll with are fit upper belts since so many of my fellow white belts dropped out and quit. Have you tried telling them to go a bit more easy? I've learned that being overly aggressive does jack all for my rolling and takes too much energy.

The big guy who did the worst rolling with me actually asked ME to go light on him because he had a "bad shoulder". It seemed like a total dick move on his part really. He was all "oh lets go light as possible, im really hurt" WHAM 100% INTENSITY BULL CHARGING...douche. Ironically my own shoulder is quite sore today. Im not sure if its from the gym, BJJ, or what, so im going to have to ask people to go very lightly with me tonight.
 
I like to ask if I'm going too hard because I'm still learning how to conserve energy and it's easy to go too hard when you're learning. I think that you should be considerate to your partner. So a lot of my rolls I'll be a bit unsure if I'm hurting them and ask "you ok?" mid-roll. Learning to roll lightly while still going 100% is my goal. For that reason, Grace Gundrum is my BJJ heroine.

Did no gi last night and gi this morning, I dunno, I prefer gi.
 
Easiest sparring ever last night. 2 people sparred in front of the whole class until one person scored a point. My partner tripped me and as soon as we went to the ground it was over because he got a point for the trip lol.
Doing DLR drills the rest of the class. I was quite happy because even tho it was my first time doing them in class, i saw how to do a DLR on youtube a few weeks ago and did it in open mat last week, and i had done it exactly as it was taught in class
 
I like to ask if I'm going too hard because I'm still learning how to conserve energy and it's easy to go too hard when you're learning. I think that you should be considerate to your partner. So a lot of my rolls I'll be a bit unsure if I'm hurting them and ask "you ok?" mid-roll. Learning to roll lightly while still going 100% is my goal. For that reason, Grace Gundrum is my BJJ heroine.

Did no gi last night and gi this morning, I dunno, I prefer gi.

I don't think there is a correct way to do it, other than having a bit off both. I think it's wrong to say "never go 100%" but also wrong to say "always go 100%". You really need both, and I think a part of the science and skill of it is to find out where how much power and strength you should use in contrast to your own endurance and that of your opponent.


I'm 6'5 260 pounds, so I am bigger than most people at my gym. For that reason I've always had a major weight advantage that just makes it dififcult for others. Early on in my BJJ career I snapped my upper arm in a spiral, and the following surgery, metal plate and scar tissue have left me in pain ever since with little strength in that arm.
For that reason I had to develop a defensive game because I really only had 1 arm and two legs. I managed to develop a solid survival game. Even though people would easily tap me, and I would have to roll into submissions and chokeholds to save my bad arm, I sort of learned to use my bodyweight to escape a lot of peoples submissions and survive. And that took a lot of power.

In that sense I was able to go 100% against sparring partners who where much smaller, and while I would be on the defensive most of the time, we would have a lot of transitions, sweeps, submissions attemps, and it sort of equalized itself in a way that made it fun for me.
I do not enjoy just cranking the cross face on top of a 170 pound guy. That is not fun to me. I don't feel I get better by doing that. When I feel have the advantage or higher skill, I will start from a terrible position and let myself exert my energy from there. Let's start with that they have my back and have to escape!

To me, if I can survive against your submission attempts, then it's a win. Newcomers in my gym are so focused on making fancy submissions and they see that as winning. But I enjoy hitting a sweep or landing a well executed escape as much as a submission. It saddens me when white belts become disheartened because they don't get that many submissions.


For all the faults of the point system in sports BJJ, gi and no-gi, I'll say that I think grapplers who fundamentally understand the importance of position before submissions generally have a better core and base. I'll spar against MMA guys with slick leg locks and really good pressure passes, but often they are so focused of jumping right for the submissions, that they don't properly establish control. You need to be able to hold that guy. And when he escapes your mount or tries to scramble out from under your back or north/south you need to follow him and tire him out and still control him.

I'm hitting my 6th bjj journey birthday in two months and I still have days where I feel like I don't breathe right or use to my strength. It is not something that anyone will ever get as good as they can be at I think^_^ Which is encouraging. It sort of kills this maniac drive to "get better quick, fast!". Better than yesterday is the best mantra I think.
I always chalk up my bad sparring sessions as grinding xp. Need to get caught in the berimbolo 10,000 times before I really master countering it. I have to do 10,000 arm triangle attempts before I really nail it. It's fascinating seeing top blacks using the same basic techniques that a white belt is using, but just at such a high level. Fascinating:D
 

StMeph

Member
I don't talk about my injuries with new/newer people or people who are spastic. It generally doesn't actually enter their minds during a roll because they don't have the presence of mind to consider it while focusing on the actual roll. I understand that, and there's no point in drawing attention to it. I should be able to protect myself, whether by changing positions or tapping early. There are people I mention injuries to, but they tend to be people I know well and have rolled with extensively.

No-gi is fun once a week, but I wouldn't focus on it. It's interesting to adapt to.
 
It's hard for me sometimes because progress is slow and you see yourself getting better at such a slow pace and there's so much to learn. It's easy to say "I suck" or "there's so much to learn" when you're being submitted a dozen times a roll. It's much more helpful to say "I'm much better compared to last month or even last week". Funnily, I think video games helped me with this mindset, which is an value I never thought I'd attribute a video game helping me obtain. But somehow it helps me when I do BJJ.

I think newbies concentrate on submissions because not only are they cool, but they're also what's ultimately making you tap every time you roll. So it's easy to think about the actual submission rather than thinking on how they gained the opportunity to do the submission.

I'm sorry about the arm, Walrus.

And yeah, StMeph, I like nogi but I'm fine with it being more of a weekly thing.

I'm also a 5'4 150 pound woman. So, rolling with big heavy guys like Walrus is really intimidating, especially the first time one pulled a basic guard pass transition to side control. Yikes. Depending on the guy and how much experience he has I could lose all the breath in my lungs depending on how he applies a side mount. That's when it's best to remember to breathe through the nose rather the mouth.

I try not to worry about injuries but you guys have me scared. I can't do BJJ the next few days (weeks?) because I have a rash. How embarrassing. This will delay my training and I was really looking forward to open mat this Sunday.

Good observation on 100% as well Walrus. There's a mantra that says you can go 100% in grapple arts when sparring so my logic is maybe I'm going to hard and there's a balance between 100% and pure brute force.
 
Ehhh, so I'm trying to cut weight for the tourney. I want to hit an area of 140-145. My 150 is my preferred weight but it's probably not best for competition and I want to be as light as possible so I can maneuver easily. The weight is having a hell of a time coming off even with paleo. I don't want to starve myself either.
 
Ehhh, so I'm trying to cut weight for the tourney. I want to hit an area of 140-145. My 150 is my preferred weight but it's probably not best for competition and I want to be as light as possible so I can maneuver easily. The weight is having a hell of a time coming off even with paleo. I don't want to starve myself either.

Don't worry about the weight too much. It's your first tournament. It's mainly about learning and figuring out wholes in your game which at this point are all over the place. The weight won't make that much of a difference. You lose the weight and you fight smaller people but you're weaker. You keep the weight and you fight bigger people and have more energy and maybe speed. Just go out and have a good time.
 
Don't worry about the weight too much. It's your first tournament. It's mainly about learning and figuring out wholes in your game which at this point are all over the place. The weight won't make that much of a difference. You lose the weight and you fight smaller people but you're weaker. You keep the weight and you fight bigger people and have more energy and maybe speed. Just go out and have a good time.

:) Okay.

Tournament is in September. It will be my first and I know it's a great opportunity to learn but I also want to do well and make my teacher proud of me because she rocks.
 
It's hard for me sometimes because progress is slow and you see yourself getting better at such a slow pace and there's so much to learn. It's easy to say "I suck" or "there's so much to learn" when you're being submitted a dozen times a roll. It's much more helpful to say "I'm much better compared to last month or even last week". Funnily, I think video games helped me with this mindset, which is an value I never thought I'd attribute a video game helping me obtain. But somehow it helps me when I do BJJ.

I think newbies concentrate on submissions because not only are they cool, but they're also what's ultimately making you tap every time you roll. So it's easy to think about the actual submission rather than thinking on how they gained the opportunity to do the submission.

I'm sorry about the arm, Walrus.

Thanks. To tell you the truth though, it put me down a strange path. My game is... bizarre. My teammates say I look funky/hilarious. Like Dark souls rolls to all sides.
Maybe it helped me learn light? Maybe it helped me having to focus on technicality.

I would get submitted 15-20-30 times every training. It was draining, but i kept showing up. I've never been someone who stuck with things. When I was a kid I had an affinity for gymnastics, for soccer, swimming. But when I became teenager I just became secluded and overweight and went into video games and not much else. And after that I just gave up when things got hard.

When you get tapped over and over in BJJ- it doesn't matter by who, or why. The results speak for themselves, and somehow, keep running into the lions den with all these great training partners just made me feel more bad ass. Eventually two years had passed and suddenly it was hard to tap me. I'd do these weird things where I would twist like a snake with my hips and get out from all sorts of positions. Suddenly I learned to roll out inverted, and hook myself out.

I think we sometimes get discouraged or feel progress is slow because while we cannot judge our own progress, we sometimes have a warped perspective because everyone else are also constantly improving. And then we feel that we are not!


And what I take away from it is that the people who inspire me the most in the gym are not the best at jiu-jitsu. There are some people who come in and they just have an easier grasp of it. They'll train 4 months intensively and they give people trouble who have trained for 3-4 years. It happens. But then you have people who have just been mediocre or straight abysmal for 5 or 6 years- or more. Everyone is just wondering why they haven't kept up. How can you keep going?
But I've had a few training partners like that, where it just took that long for them to find themselves. A mix of poor diet, inconsistent training, irregular training and poor conditioning probably hurt their growth a lot too. But it's inspiring when people overcome it. You see people change as people. As corny as it sounds, peoples lives really are transformed. I think people who have patience, self reflection and modesty and who can calm their ego a bit can see the good parts of getting tapped. Of being the bottom of the hierarchy. Now you're paying your dues, but if you have maturity and foresight to stick with it, you will reap the rewards.

In my case it was an eye opener, because at the time when I got into Jiu-Jitsu I had forgotten all about the value of hard work as a vehicle for self improvement. I feel that getting destroyed so much in the gym has made me a better person. It has changed what I thought about being strong. Small guys half my size, are crushing me. They can snap me in half if they want to and there is nothing I can do about it. i just feel this sense of humility and pride that they want to train and teach me things.



I'm also a 5'4 150 pound woman. So, rolling with big heavy guys like Walrus is really intimidating, especially the first time one pulled a basic guard pass transition to side control. Yikes. Depending on the guy and how much experience he has I could lose all the breath in my lungs depending on how he applies a side mount. That's when it's best to remember to breathe through the nose rather the mouth.

I try not to worry about injuries but you guys have me scared. I can't do BJJ the next few days (weeks?) because I have a rash. How embarrassing. This will delay my training and I was really looking forward to open mat this Sunday.

Good observation on 100% as well Walrus. There's a mantra that says you can go 100% in grapple arts when sparring so my logic is maybe I'm going to hard and there's a balance between 100% and pure brute force.

My spiral fracture was a freak accident. Adrenaline had me so excited I just didn't feel any pain. Under normal circumstances I would have tapped. He had me in Kesa Gatama / Scalfhold, and applied his other leg as a pendulum on top of the arm. Bone snapped like a spiral. It's very rare that this happens, so don't worry about that at all.


One of my training partners is your size, and I can tell you something- she is notoriously hard to control. I cannot contain mount because my thighs are too big. Its difficult to triangle her because her head slips out. Emily Kwon has some excellent side control survival tips; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iZjnbCun0A&list=PLyknAhj6gPvJE1wVYlbZ8jZDclBfi9wtY&index=5


There is also a sweep that is excellent to use against big guys like me. I am not sure what the name is, but its a sort of front headlock forward rollover. I really feel that nothing kills the big guys strength like putting pressure on his neck. It's quite incredible how much off base it takes him.:D
 
See, this is what got me addicted to BJJ: finding an answer for everything. It's why I'm more interested in the technical stuff than just the submissions. Find there's an answer to an answer to an answer and there's endless possibilities excites me. There feels like there's always something to work on. "How do I escape a really, really big guys side mount?" I love that you can ask a question and there's an answer and it all relates to the manipulation of the human body. Just breaking guard by pushing the inner thigh down amazes me. It feels like one giant puzzle.

I can do what Kwon is doing, just a bit, but it's still a challenge for me. Still learning my ABC's!

And yes, I feel like being reminded you're not shit is good for you. I'm not long in my BJJ journey but at this point I'm at a place where I doubt I'll ever quit, which is amazing given my history as a dabbler. Seeing the amount of people who have quit and left since joining gives me so much confidence, and all I've managed to do is not give up.
 
There's nothing like getting bow and arrow choked by a 16 year old as a 37 year old man to really teach you some humility.
Just finished open mat class now. I still suck abysmally. I can't do anything except defend. I guess the best thing i can take from today's class was that I escaped from a lot of submission attempts.
I was dead on my feet after a few rolls tho. I'm in great shape physically, I work out a lot, have great cardio, but fucking hell rolling takes it out of me. My arms were burnt out after a few rounds. I really need to work on that. And literally everything else.
Also a blue belt accidentally kicked me in the mouth. Ouch. I love BJJ

Walrus your story is inspiring tho for real. I hope one day I turn up to class and people find it hard to submit me...for once
 

Timedog

good credit (by proxy)
When you just throw in random first or last names your words become impenetrable, OP. If you're going to type that many words in an OP to try and teach people about a subject, the least you could do is type out someone's full name when you mention them so they can be googled in lieu of a fleshed out introduction.
 

2MF

Member
Fighting in 100% sparring. That is what I think is so fascinating about grappling. That one can go at it 100% and try to destroy someone else, trying to choke them unconscious and break their limbs and it doesn't hurt anyone due to the tap.
That sort of 100% sparring is not sustainable in striking!

This is a big part of the reason I loved practicing Judo. I should get back to it. It's so much fun to even get thrown around by people who know what they're doing!! Safety mats and tapping mean that you don't need to hold back much if any for most moves. Even the moves that felt like they were making my body split into 4 pieces were great to go through.

Great thread and OP btw, I need to reread it.
 
When you just throw in random first or last names your words become impenetrable, OP. If you're going to type that many words in an OP to try and teach people about a subject, the least you could do is type out someone's full name when you mention them so they can be googled in lieu of a fleshed out introduction.

I mean, the topic is Jiu Jitsu history. Jiu Jitsu history has a lot of players. It stars a family that could fill up a literal town due to their sheer size if they wanted to. If you're not already familiar with BJJ Histroy basics and the main key players, it wasn't written for you. However, the links I provide cover basic things. These names are not random at all. They are basic names any practioner or someone knowledgable about the basics of BJJ usually knows.

This is the best place to start learning the basic players involved. It's the "official" Gracie story.

http://youtu.be/4CGYQjC6WOY

After that you read this fantastic History of BJJ series by TP Grant on Bleacher Report.

History of Jiu Jitsu: Birth on the Battlefield

History of Jiu Jitsu: The Meiji Era and the Evolution of Judo

History of Jiu Jitsu: Judo Travels the World and Maeda Meets Gracie

History of Jiu Jitsu: Judo Grows Into An Olympic Sport

History of Jiu Jitsu: Baptism By Fire and Luta Livre

History of Jiu-Jitsu: The Tragedy of Rolls Gracie

History of Jiu Jitsu: Carlson Gracie, The Grandfather of Jiu Jitsu in MMA

History of Jiu Jitsu: The Rise of Sport Jiu Jitsu

History of Jiu-Jitsu: Coming to America and the Birth of the UFC

History of Jiu Jitsu: Gracies Leave the UFC and Bring Jiu Jitsu Back to Japan

History of Jiu Jitsu: Grappling Arts Begin To Blend in MMA

History of Jiu Jitsu: Twist and Shout, the Eddie Bravo Story



Then read my OP and the links provided. But I assure you they're not random. Given all of this history, you should probably see why I didn't bother fully explaining who every person was. lol
 
There's nothing like getting bow and arrow choked by a 16 year old as a 37 year old man to really teach you some humility.
Just finished open mat class now. I still suck abysmally. I can't do anything except defend. I guess the best thing i can take from today's class was that I escaped from a lot of submission attempts.
I was dead on my feet after a few rolls tho. I'm in great shape physically, I work out a lot, have great cardio, but fucking hell rolling takes it out of me. My arms were burnt out after a few rounds. I really need to work on that. And literally everything else.
Also a blue belt accidentally kicked me in the mouth. Ouch. I love BJJ

Walrus your story is inspiring tho for real. I hope one day I turn up to class and people find it hard to submit me...for once

I wouldn't take this as a bad thing? Sounds like a lot of progress to me. Not having to tap as much is a lot of progress even if it's the roll is one sided.

Is your mouth ok? And uhh...yeah. Rolling tears me apart. Thankfully I take mid-day naps on BJJ days.
 
There's nothing like getting bow and arrow choked by a 16 year old as a 37 year old man to really teach you some humility.
Just finished open mat class now. I still suck abysmally. I can't do anything except defend. I guess the best thing i can take from today's class was that I escaped from a lot of submission attempts.
I was dead on my feet after a few rolls tho. I'm in great shape physically, I work out a lot, have great cardio, but fucking hell rolling takes it out of me. My arms were burnt out after a few rounds. I really need to work on that. And literally everything else.
Also a blue belt accidentally kicked me in the mouth. Ouch. I love BJJ

Walrus your story is inspiring tho for real. I hope one day I turn up to class and people find it hard to submit me...for once

Haha! I love the bow and arrow. It's one of my favourites due to its incredible power. When someone catches you with it.. it feels like your head is a cap about the burst from the bubble. You don't even think about holding it!

The great thing about being your age is that, coming in later in life you've been through a lot of things a lot of the youngsters haven't. We have a 16 year old who could be a champ, but he is being distracted by partying, girlfriends, and just being a teenager.
I really find that a valuable thing to remember when I talk to some of the older guys who'll say something like "i wish I had begun BJJ 10 or 20 years ago!" but in reality its not sure you would have seen what it was all about had you started then.

I also am quite inspired by people who begin later. Like Anthony Boudain!



After all, a 17 year old is 37 tomorrow, and 57 the day after. In that sense I always look to those older than me to see where I will be in the future! And that calms whatever angst I've had about wanting to get better "fast". It calms me and just makes me think about wanting to train smart, safe and for longevity.




This is a big part of the reason I loved practicing Judo. I should get back to it. It's so much fun to even get thrown around by people who know what they're doing!! Safety mats and tapping mean that you don't need to hold back much if any for most moves. Even the moves that felt like they were making my body split into 4 pieces were great to go through.

Great thread and OP btw, I need to reread it.

Yeah! I hope one day I'll learn to do a decent Uci-Mata xD
 
One of the more humbling things is being surrounded by people who could choke you out and break you in half if they wanted to. A lot of lower belts I know are scared of rolling with upper belts but I like it because it shows just how fucking weak and ignorant I am. You feel like a newborn baby against people like this. Doesn't matter if they're a man, a woman, fat, skinny, athletic, non-athletic. They'll choke you out and put you in your place.

The possibility of being choked out or having your arm broken is crazy, and so fucking badass to me. When Walrus said he felt like he was in a lions den, it was the accurate summation. I'm Daniel in the lions den and letting people choke me and people letting me choke them.

It's so beautiful.

If all Earth choked each other we'd have less bloodshed. Choking and arm barring for world peace is achievable.

zz52Doz.jpg


Brerlappin's post reminds me of that series of Joe Rogan videos called the Benefits of BJJ:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Tp7LP6ciU0

"It's good for you to get destroyed, it's good for you to get mounted and triangle choked and shit. It's good because you're learning how easy it is for someone to do this to you. Most people have no idea. They walk through this world having no idea how some Marcelo Garcia character could just take your life any time he wanted to."
 
If all Earth choked each other we'd have less bloodshed. Choking and arm barring for world peace is achievable.

zz52Doz.jpg

If someone ran with this as their campaign slogan, id vote for them :D And yeah the mouth is fine thanks haha, it was just a glancing blow as he threw his legs over my head going for an armbar.

I got my first submissions in sparring last night! An Americana and an armbar. Also landed a nice sweep on a guy ranked higher than me. I still suck, but i feel better in my suckage today haha
 
Haha! I love the bow and arrow. It's one of my favourites due to its incredible power. When someone catches you with it.. it feels like your head is a cap about the burst from the bubble. You don't even think about holding it!

The great thing about being your age is that, coming in later in life you've been through a lot of things a lot of the youngsters haven't. We have a 16 year old who could be a champ, but he is being distracted by partying, girlfriends, and just being a teenager.
I really find that a valuable thing to remember when I talk to some of the older guys who'll say something like "i wish I had begun BJJ 10 or 20 years ago!" but in reality its not sure you would have seen what it was all about had you started then.

I also am quite inspired by people who begin later. Like Anthony Boudain!




After all, a 17 year old is 37 tomorrow, and 57 the day after. In that sense I always look to those older than me to see where I will be in the future! And that calms whatever angst I've had about wanting to get better "fast". It calms me and just makes me think about wanting to train smart, safe and for longevity.






Yeah! I hope one day I'll learn to do a decent Uci-Mata xD

No joking but Bourdain is a total inspiration. When i was flip flopping about starting BJJ the thought that this old dude can do it made it seem a little less scary.
 
So what advice would you give someone like me who wants to get started in bjj and has no MA experience whatsoever and who's about to hit 30 in 7 months?
 
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