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[64gigabyteram]

One of the most memorable things about the SNES and NES from a hardware standpoint was their modularity. The NES & SNES had grown long in the tooth by 1989 and 1996 respectively, in the wake of stronger consoles and arcade hardware giving a glimpse at the new future. However one of the things that kept the system growing was the number of expansion chips it had to make games running on the system that much better.

Stuff like the SuperFX and SA1 which accelerated the graphics and processing abilities of the system helped them last, and without those chips we wouldn't have great games like Yoshi's Island, Star Fox, Kirby Super Star, and Super Mario RPG.

They even enabled such demanding and visually next-gen games like Street Fighter Alpha 2 and Doom to run on the system.

Not only that, but these chips are also being modded into older games without them like Gradius 3 as to remove and reduce major slowdown, a major benefit to people who want an arcade-like experience.

TUT: Slowdown-free Gradius 3: Building SNES SA-1 Conversions - shmups.system11.org

Games were packaged with the hardware required to run on them, and could run on every system so long as you had a working SNES. You were only gatekept behind the cost of the game and no other hardware was required
it was such a great idea that Sega tried and failed to copy it with the abomination that was the 32x- they failed because you had to buy a brand new add on instead of just the game and the cart. (there was also the SVP chip used for Virtua Racer, but that was only for one game. It was markedly more impressive than anything on SuperFX though, IMO)
Although even then, Sega had a great idea with Sonic 3 and the lock-on technology utilizing 2 carts to create 1 full experience (sonic & knuckles and Sonic 3 = Sonic 3 & Knuckles, the definitive game)

Nowadays, even that's just not a thing anymore. Games on PS5 and Xbox will come out with bad performance and the only way to make it better is to buy a whole stinking new console for 700 dollars. No more specialized hardware or fun experimentation with the cart.

Everything runs, sure, but there's no more pizazz. Devs don't commission new pieces of hardware and put them inside the game to give you an extreme experience anymore, they don't feel their games are worth that kind of effort these days.

This is partly due to the introduction of CDs, and later on digital downloads. CDs are purely meant for storage as opposed to carts which could be multipurpose. Then Digital Downloads came along and I think the issue posed there is made obvious- You can't transmit hardware through the internet. However even then, portable consoles (up til today) still use carts- there's just no more specialized hardware.

We could have had a Sega Saturn style approach where you put in a CD for the game itself and then add a cart for enhanced visuals and performance. Imagine the PS5 having a cartridge slot and a cart which had Nvidia hardware for accelerated path tracing capabilities, like a thunderbolt slot for external GPUs on laptops and PCs.

That being said, after digital downloads, this just became even harder to implement.

IDK, maybe I'm the only one who thinks this. But I don't think it's any coincidence that gaming in general started to have more concern in regards to performance the moment we got rid of expansion chips in carts. Pro consoles just don't hit the same.

 

[joeygreco1985]

The upgrade-ability was cool but it came at a cost. People are quick to forget some of those late gen SNES carts were very expensive.

 

[Toots]

I think upper management at the time did not know anything about video games, how they are made and the technologies used.
This made the devs more powerful. They could say "we need this chip to make our game, we cannot do it any other way, and it will sell really good if you let us do as we want". Now that upper management has more experience, they don't accept devs conditions as easily. So they can more efficiently shun creativity and implement risk adverse strategies, which of course tends to standardize games into the unenjoyable drivel most AAA have become.

I based this on absolutely nothing, im a librarian...

 

[lmimmfn]

 

[Radical_3d]

The upgrade-ability was cool but it came at a cost. People are quick to forget some of those late gen SNES carts were very expensive.

Yep. Adjust the prices of the cartridges to today's money and you'll see why the market expanded so much in the CD era.

 

[PauloRoberto]

The answer is evident: cost.

Super FX was used by 5 games.
Super FX2 was used by 4 games (including Star Fox 2)

 

[diffusionx]

I wish more 2D games used the SuperFX chip. Yoshi's Island is an astonishing game technically because it used the chip to do all this stuff, as opposed to poorly running polygon games.

 

[64gigabyteram]

The upgrade-ability was cool but it came at a cost. People are quick to forget some of those late gen SNES carts were very expensive.

I get the talks about prices but honestly a 100+ dollar physical game with bundled additional hardware doesn't sound that bad when you consider that we're buying 700 dollar consoles and 2000+ dollar graphics cards now, plus "premium edition" versions of games that already leapfrog the set 60-70 dollar price.

I feel like if there's a demand, people will pay whatever. Nvidia sells garbage with AI enhancements and people lap that shit up at exorbitant fees.
the transition to CDs and digital distribution of games is probably a better explanation for the death of cartridge expansion chips

 

[clintar]

One time mid-gen refresh better option

 

[hinch7]

OCuLink and TB4/5 would lose a lot of performance and eGPU's for consoles make no sense. Would be prohibitely expensive for both Sony and consumers.

Better to just keep it to a proper refresh and brand as to not confuse consumers. Can't imagine trying to market an expensive addon and eGPU over a new SKU.

 

[Sebastian1295]

I get the talks about prices but honestly a 100+ dollar physical game with bundled additional hardware doesn't sound that bad when you consider that we're buying 700 dollar consoles and 2000+ dollar graphics cards now, plus "premium edition" versions of games that already leapfrog the set 60-70 dollar price.

I feel like if there's a demand, people will pay whatever. Nvidia sells garbage with AI enhancements and people lap that shit up at exorbitant fees.
the transition to CDs and digital distribution of games is probably a better explanation for the death of cartridge expansion chips

We don't need 100 dollar games or this focus on GRAPHICS GRAPHICS GRAPHICS. I'm almost 30 and i still can play NES games, SNES, etc and still have a blast. Who cares if this puddle reflects or you can see this NPC's nose hairs etc because it's pointless. The need for graphics needs to stop and we need to go back to actual storytelling and gameplay instead of having ridiculous budgets because of graphics.

 

[Magic Carpet]

External GPU's with separate power supplies should be a thing.
Don't have to worry about it fitting into my case, just another box to go into my Home Theater system.

 

[diffusionx]

The answer is evident: cost.

Super FX was used by 5 games.
Super FX2 was used by 4 games (including Star Fox 2)

Yes, but, consider the flip side.

Sega CD had additional hardware inside it to help the Genesis do things like sprite scaling which the SNES could do with the expansion chips. But it was an expensive add on and few games used those capabilities. So, ultimately, six of one half dozen of another. Eventually Sega went the expansion chip route and charged $100 for their sole expansion chip game which was more expensive than any SNES title.

 

[64gigabyteram]

We don't need 100 dollar games or this focus on GRAPHICS GRAPHICS GRAPHICS

They've always been a thing. 100 buck games were a thing back in the 90s (and I think they should stay in the 90s, don't get me wrong) and ever since the NES, devs have marketed on graphics, if anything it's less of a big deal now compared to back then where people used bits as a determinant of a console's power. Teraflops are the same thing now but without as much marketing.

Moreover it's not just about graphics. It's a part sure, but this is more about scope- a game so big & innovative it needs extra hardware to properly run is a concept we haven't seen in gaming since 1995. what happened to that?
I mean, the closest thing we have nowadays was Baldur's Gate 3 getting a delayed Xbox port because of the Xbox Series S holding the game back.

also, mentioning storytelling is kind of funny considering that the problem with a lot of modern AAA and budgets is too much storytelling impeding gameplay satisfaction.

 

[Holammer]

With the wisdom of hindsight, I would have designed consoles with a slot for a System Update card instead of ballooning the cost of individual carts and all games could use the new features.
Plus they could have plopped more functionality in them. Could even make a pass-though cart which lies flush against the console.
We could have had 100s of games using SA-1 or FX features.

 

[64gigabyteram]

Eventually Sega went the expansion chip route and charged $100 for their sole expansion chip game which was more expensive than any SNES title.

Because it was fucking minted.



They had every right to charge as much as they did considering the insane shit on display here. 80s console pulling off 3D like this is wild. Even Star Fox 2 didn't have as smooth of a framerate and that was using the SFX2.
The closest modern day equivalence to something like this would be like.... Seeing Half Life 2 RTX run on a PS5 with an expansion chip.

 

[Digital-Aftertaste]

External GPU's with separate power supplies should be a thing.
Don't have to worry about it fitting into my case, just another box to go into my Home Theater system.

If only stuff like SLI and Crossfire had been worked on to the point where it functioned automatically rather than needing to work on the games to use that option, we could've seen an easy expansion option that might've even been economical for the console manufacturers themselves.

 

[diffusionx]

Because it was fucking minted.



They had every right to charge as much as they did considering the insane shit on display here. 80s console pulling off 3D like this is wild. Even Star Fox 2 didn't have as smooth of a framerate and that was using the SFX2.
The closest modern day equivalence to something like this would be like.... Seeing Half Life 2 RTX run on a PS5 with an expansion chip.

Yes Virtua Racing is very good on the Genesis.

My point is that these capabilities were very expensive back in the day, which is why they weren't in the hardware to begin with. The expansion route let companies that really wanted it to have it, but they would have to pay for it, but it still remained expensive. By the end of the NES, you had carts with co-CPUs, co-graphics chips, full synth chips on board, basically an entire console running alongside the NES.

 

[64gigabyteram]

full synth chips on board

making NES music is really fun because of this. Alongside the base chips, NES music programs have options for using the expansion chips for additional sound capabilities

 

[awwr999999]

The upgrade-ability was cool but it came at a cost. People are quick to forget some of those late gen SNES carts were very expensive.

Modern Nintendo consoles like the Switch could emulate all kinds of 'expansion chips' based on modern HW without adding any cost to the game development.
If Nintendo reopened the SNES platform to studios 100% of new SNES games would be able to have full quality audio and all the benefits of those previously expensive chips for free.

 

[CamHostage]

Imagine the PS5 having a cartridge slot and a cart which had Nvidia hardware for accelerated path tracing capabilities, like a thunderbolt slot for external GPUs on laptops and PCs.

Have you ever priced eGPUs?

Amazon.com : external gpu

Performance is also a question on these. Maybe somebody in this forum has first-hand insight of use to say what the current experience is, but I haven't read a lot of glowing reviews.

 

[CamHostage]

OCuLink and TB4/5 would lose a lot of performance and eGPU's for consoles make no sense. Would be prohibitely expensive for both Sony and consumers.

Yeah, it sounds like a fun idea, but I don't see the value in it as it is now.

A console's CPU/GPU/Memory is pretty tightly arranged and balanced to give the most bang for the buck. You don't get a finely-tuned machine to go up to the next level just by adding "more chips" or "bigger chips".

Maybe we'll get some more modular features in consoles again in the future. (Current consoles have way more upgradability and open standard features than I ever would have expected as a Nintendo/PS kid dealing with all those custom formats and ports.) But I don't see that you're going to get a PS5 Pro-level performance overhaul with a USB cord or a cartridge slot. (And whatever you do get in trying to boost to that level is going to be spendy.)

 

[Ozzie666]

If they could agree on a chip they could have released an add on and release more titled. Sega should of done this with their virtual racing chip, but far to late.

Nintendo having everything run from a cart probably reduced confusion.

Also games cost 120 here Digital versions what the fuck man. I rather pay 100 for physical carts with unique chips.

 

[awwr999999]

Performance is also a question on these. Maybe somebody in this forum has first-hand insight of use to say what the current experience is, but I haven't read a lot of positives.

x86 as a gaming architecture is an extremely expensive dead-end that's well beyond the point of diminishing returns.
Radically improving relatively inexpensive SNES or PS2 HW with modern tech (DualSense, PSN backend, NVME, etc.) would be far more impressive than boosting x86 clock speed slightly.

 

[NeoIkaruGAF]

The story is a bit deeper than that.
Mappers were initially a way to expand the NES's capabilities beyond its baseline which, as far as I know, was limited to those arcade-style games that released between 1983 and 1984. Iirc, not even SMB would run on a base Famicom without a mapper.
But even Nintendo had chosen to go the hardware upgrade route as soon as 1986 with the FDS. What's very curious there is that the FDS ultimately failed due to a combination of discs being rewritable at a very low price (which reduced profit for devs and publishers) and third parties wanting to do more with the hardware that was ruling the market. So third parties went back to carts, and started expanding them with increasingly better chips, thus prolonging the console's life way beyond what its hardware could have allowed.
NEC also went the way of hardware modularity, and their PC-Engine was enough of a success to show that it wasn't a bad idea. But getting all the upgrades was expensive. It made much more sense back then to swallow the price of an expensive game that was actually good, than keep expanding your hardware with upgrades that devs didn't know how to exploit, to play games that weren't worth it.

Also, back then additional chips could be advertised as exclusive features of a game or console, and exclusivity was king at the time. Mode 7, blast processing, SFX and Virtua Racing were better ammo for console wars than anything Pro in the PS5 Pro that you can mention in an ad today. Starfox and VR were hella expensive, yes, but the devs knew they would be special for the audience. And it's not like those were being used in every game, too. The investment was probably worth it, and the tech could be reused in a few more games. We wouldn't have Yoshi's Island as we know it without Starfox.

The upgrade-ability was cool but it came at a cost. People are quick to forget some of those late gen SNES carts were very expensive.

This argument is a bit funny in a market where people are willing to pay up to $100 for a new digital game between pre-orders and meaningless additional content that cost peanuts and a few hours to make. And let's not get started on limited editions, or physical editions. You used to pay more for a complete game that also came on a physical support. And those very expensive games were exceptions, not the norm. Now every AA game made for a specific niche has a "complete/premium/ultimate" version which is completely digital and gives you only digital shit that often adds nothing to the actual game.

 

[cireza]

Modern Nintendo consoles like the Switch could emulate all kinds of 'expansion chips' based on modern HW without adding any cost to the game development.
If Nintendo reopened the SNES platform to studios 100% of new SNES games would be able to have full quality audio and all the benefits of those previously expensive chips for free.

I think that the main issue for now is that there isn't a huge interest for SNES homebrew games.

 

[Drew1440]

It did showcase how underpowered the Super Nintendo's CPU was, and how it relied on expansion processors to keep competitive with the Mega Drive (Which also had expansion chips of it's own) and the home computers of the era (Amiga, Macintosh). Still even modern consoles could implement something similar with USB4 and Thunderbolt which have enough bandwidth to run an external GPU. However i suspect it's more desirable to offload processing to the cloud infrastructure instead.

 

[Clear]

The story is a bit deeper than that.
Mappers were initially a way to expand the NES's capabilities beyond its baseline which, as far as I know, was limited to those arcade-style games that released between 1983 and 1984. Iirc, not even SMB would run on a base Famicom without a mapper.
But even Nintendo had chosen to go the hardware upgrade route as soon as 1986 with the FDS. What's very curious there is that the FDS ultimately failed due to a combination of discs being rewritable at a very low price (which reduced profit for devs and publishers) and third parties wanting to do more with the hardware that was ruling the market. So third parties went back to carts, and started expanding them with increasingly better chips, thus prolonging the console's life way beyond what its hardware could have allowed.
NEC also went the way of hardware modularity, and their PC-Engine was enough of a success to show that it wasn't a bad idea. But getting all the upgrades was expensive. It made much more sense back then to swallow the price of an expensive game that was actually good, than keep expanding your hardware with upgrades that devs didn't know how to exploit, to play games that weren't worth it.

Also, back then additional chips could be advertised as exclusive features of a game or console, and exclusivity was king at the time. Mode 7, blast processing, SFX and Virtua Racing were better ammo for console wars than anything Pro in the PS5 Pro that you can mention in an ad today. Starfox and VR were hella expensive, yes, but the devs knew they would be special for the audience. And it's not like those were being used in every game, too. The investment was probably worth it, and the tech could be reused in a few more games. We wouldn't have Yoshi's Island as we know it without Starfox.



This argument is a bit funny in a market where people are willing to pay up to $100 for a new digital game between pre-orders and meaningless additional content that cost peanuts and a few hours to make. And let's not get started on limited editions, or physical editions. You used to pay more for a complete game that also came on a physical support. And those very expensive games were exceptions, not the norm. Now every AA game made for a specific niche has a "complete/premium/ultimate" version which is completely digital and gives you only digital shit that often adds nothing to the actual game.

Mappers are electronically trivial devices.

Consider: All a cartridge does is that on cold start it signals to the CPU to bank in memory from the external (cart) rom, and page it within the host cpu's ram-space at a certain position. Extending that process to change the source of the banked ram to a different chunk stored on the cart's rom is a matter of writing a bit or two whilst the CPU is none-the-wiser.

The utility for an 8/16 bit system with a highly constrained ram pool is massive because it effectively allows computationally free, near-instant expansion memory used to store video data. For example you could create banks of sprite sheets, each bank representing a different frame of animation and use a single write to toggle the source effectively globally animating them all at once.

It made sense because copying in, or worse depacking and copying in the same data from elsewhere in ram is going to tie the cpu up for a substantial amount of cycles even if its being done piecemeal.

The downside was always cost to the producer as creating such carts adds even more upfront to an already painful expense, so it was always an option only available to a priveliged few.

A perfect illustration is that the c64 was equally capable of such things -in fact potentially more so as the 6510 cpu's specialty versus a standard 6502 is enhanced bank switching!- but rarely if ever got such products because software was usually from smaller vendors.

These days, using an emulator you can easily employ such techniques because being a total software solution there's no additional cost to worry about.

 

[lughnasadh123]

Cool in a historic sense but it's not something I'd want to go back to. Instead we need more options on a software level when running games and just better optimization.

 

[Hoddi]

Performance is also a question on these. Maybe somebody in this forum has first-hand insight of use to say what the current experience is, but I haven't read a lot of glowing reviews.

Thunderbolt is basically just a PCIe x4 connection. A PCIe 5.0 card plugged into a TB5 dock should have broadly the same performance as if you used it on a PCIe 3.0 x16 motherboard. TPU did an article with a 5090 earlier this year and the difference between 3.0 and 5.0 isn't too big for the most part.

Older docks using TB3 are more bottlenecked as those are only equivalent to PCIe 1.0.

 

[TheMan]

Poor performance nowadays comes down to design decisions lack of optimization. If Sony released an addon cart that would get maxed out too and you'd still have frame rate issues

 

[diffusionx]

Poor performance nowadays comes down to design decisions lack of optimization. If Sony released an addon cart that would get maxed out too and you'd still have frame rate issues

the point too is that these chips enabled games that were literally impossible to make without them. You couldn't go beyond Super Mario Bros. without a mapping chip. Obviously Star Fox and Virtua Racing are both impossible on stock hardware. It's not about getting a slightly higher framerate or base resolution.

 

[Sorcerer]

With the wisdom of hindsight, I would have designed consoles with a slot for a System Update card instead of ballooning the cost of individual carts and all games could use the new features.
Plus they could have plopped more functionality in them. Could even make a pass-though cart which lies flush against the console.
We could have had 100s of games using SA-1 or FX features.

I would imagine that though this was a great idea, the fear was that a newer console from a competitor would make this seem less attractive to the consumer. New and shiny was always going to win to the mass market, the more practical consumer who would stick with old hardware just wasn't there number wise to justify this upgrade path.