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[The Mad Draklor]

I don't think he coined the term, but I think he repeated it enough times that everyone thought, hey I too can sound smart!

Sessler would probably be pissed at this comparison, but his review style sounds very similar to Bob Chipman's (aka Moviebob). They both sound like they've combed through a thesaurus to look for smart sounding words to make them seem like geniuses.

Plus, though I've not confirmed this as I don't frequent Twitter, but I hear Sessler's is a diehard anti-Trumpist much like Bob.

Add Dan Olsen (very anti-GamerGate) to the list, too, with his made-up "Thermian argument".

 

[Blood Borne]

All videogames are not equal though. So it's not that weird.

I liked Pacific Rim. I am looking forward to seeing 1917 this weekend.
So you reckon if at some point in 1917 a giant fucking robot goes flying across the screen closely followed by a rampaging kaiju then I can't say shit?
"Well you enjoyed that stuff in Pacific Rim! It's a movie for fuck sake".

It's nonsense. There's not just a simple "one size fits all" template that all video games should follow.

If a developer wants to push their game as a serious narrative character driven game then yeah there should be questions asked about how the games story and the gameplay are kept consistent.

It doesn't mean that every game needs to have this. It depends on the game.

Your example is a ridiculous straw man. It is no way comparable to this Uncharted "issue".

If consistency is your issue, then live up to it. be consistent and hold ALL games to the same standard/logic to which you're applying to Uncharted, then you'll realise that ALL games suffer from ludonarrative dissonance in one way or another.

 

[Chromata]

I don't think condemning a company for wanting to tackle ludonarrative dissonance is a good idea. It's a challenge for developers to do so and we can get some wonderful gaming experiences as a result.

Ultimately I don't buy the "it's just a video game" argument because gaming is constantly growing and evolving. We don't need to choose between one type of game or another when we can have them all.

Ludonarrative dissonance would be a problem in a game that takes itself very seriously and handles complex moral issues. Uncharted, for the most part, doesn't do that and it's just a lighthearted adventure so the criticisms on that front are questionable at best.

 

[GymWolf]

I don't care enough for ND characters or stories to worry myself with ludo dissonance...

 

[Saruhashi]

If consistency is your issue, then live up to it. be consistent and hold ALL games to the same standard/logic to which you're applying to Uncharted, then you'll realise that ALL games suffer from ludonarrative dissonance in one way or another.

Why? All games are different.

Uncharted tries to be a videogame driven by character development and cinematic storytelling.
Overcooked is a multiplayer game about falling out with your friends and family cos they let half of the kitchen burn.

Why would I hold them to the same standards when they are clearly different games with different goals.

Bloodborne deals with the fact that the player will "die" while playing the game in an interesting way and ties it right back into the story.
Sekiro even goes further than that.

Plenty of games come up with cool and thoughtful ways to make the sometimes unrealistic aspects of gaming into interesting parts of their own story or gameplay.

For me it comes down to what the game is setting out to do.
Naughty Dog pride themselves on their characters and their storytelling. In my opinion Uncharted falls short.

I don't judge all movies or books or movies by the same standard. Why should games be any different?
You think that The Last of Us and Crash Bandicoot are more or less the same when you get down to how the characters are introduced and how the story develops?

 

[Danjin44]

I don't think condemning a company for wanting to tackle ludonarrative dissonance is a good idea. It's a challenge for developers to do so and we can get some wonderful gaming experiences as a result.

Ultimately I don't buy the "it's just a video game" argument because gaming is constantly growing and evolving. We don't need to choose between one type of game or another when we can have them all.

Ludonarrative dissonance would be a problem in a game that takes itself very seriously and handles complex moral issues. Uncharted, for the most part, doesn't do that and it's just a lighthearted adventure so the criticisms on that front are questionable at best.

This true for first two games and even 3rd game but 4th does take itself more seriously, it felt like they were going more of TLOU vibe compare to the pervious game.

 

[GreyHorace]

Add Dan Olsen (very anti-GamerGate) to the list, too, with his made-up "Thermian argument".

Yeeccch. Dan Olson is another pretentious prick I cannot stand.

 

[The Mad Draklor]

Ludonarrative dissonance would be a problem in a game that takes itself very seriously and handles complex moral issues. Uncharted, for the most part, doesn't do that and it's just a lighthearted adventure so the criticisms on that front are questionable at best.

I think it's only a problem if developers advertise their game to be one thing, but then it turns out to be something else, aka. misleading marketing. If they say their game is close to reality, but players spot several unrealistic elements as they play the game, then they should be rightfully criticized.

 

[Saruhashi]

I don't think condemning a company for wanting to tackle ludonarrative dissonance is a good idea. It's a challenge for developers to do so and we can get some wonderful gaming experiences as a result.

Ultimately I don't buy the "it's just a video game" argument because gaming is constantly growing and evolving. We don't need to choose between one type of game or another when we can have them all.

Ludonarrative dissonance would be a problem in a game that takes itself very seriously and handles complex moral issues. Uncharted, for the most part, doesn't do that and it's just a lighthearted adventure so the criticisms on that front are questionable at best.

I think it depends on how serious that criticism actually is.

If someone is saying "Uncharted 4 is fucking amoral trash that allows mindless killing and says its OK and I will NEVER play it" then, sure, that's over the top.
Same as people losing their minds over Bioshock Infinite or whatever.

It doesn't mean that the criticism is 100% invalid.

Just as there are different games all trying to achieve different things, I think there are levels of criticism.

I think Batman doesn't kill people in the Arkham games right? Yet, they did come up with loads of cool and fun combat mechanics so...

People always go to Uncharted because it seems like one of the more obvious examples bit also because Naughty Dog are always being praised so highly for their storytelling and characters when actually there are some weird disconnects there that other games do a way better job of dealing with.

Uncharted always felt like it would be much better as a platform and stealth experience and the shooting gallery aspects are a bit boring and also out of line with the story part.

 

[Deleted member 1159]

Your example is a ridiculous straw man. It is no way comparable to this Uncharted "issue".

If consistency is your issue, then live up to it. be consistent and hold ALL games to the same standard/logic to which you're applying to Uncharted, then you'll realise that ALL games suffer from ludonarrative dissonance in one way or another.

Must be easy living in such a black and white world.

 

[Chromata]

This true for first two games and even 3rd game but 4th does take itself more seriously, it felt like they were going more of TLOU vibe compare to the pervious game.

Yup that's why I said for the most part Uncharted doesn't tackle "serious" themes, rather than it never does. Even still, it's very constrained. Its themes largely come down to choosing between two different worlds (adventure and family) and dealing with the consequences of a lifetime being a thief.
There isn't much of a focus on death or really many dark elements.

I agree TLOU rubbed off on Uncharted but it still kept its adventure first core. TLOU2 on the other hand looks like it's going way down the deep end in terms of dark themes

 

[Blood Borne]

Must be easy living in such a black and white world.

Must not be easy living in a ludonarrative dissonance world.

 

[Deleted member 1159]

Must not be easy living in a ludonarrative dissonance world.

Nah actually I think the concept can be used super effectively, the criticism is of games that don't. So people getting defensive over it are just showing their own ineptitude.

 

[Blood Borne]

Why? All games are different.

Uncharted tries to be a videogame driven by character development and cinematic storytelling.
Overcooked is a multiplayer game about falling out with your friends and family cos they let half of the kitchen burn.

Why would I hold them to the same standards when they are clearly different games with different goals.

Bloodborne deals with the fact that the player will "die" while playing the game in an interesting way and ties it right back into the story.
Sekiro even goes further than that.

Plenty of games come up with cool and thoughtful ways to make the sometimes unrealistic aspects of gaming into interesting parts of their own story or gameplay.

For me it comes down to what the game is setting out to do.
Naughty Dog pride themselves on their characters and their storytelling. In my opinion Uncharted falls short.

I don't judge all movies or books or movies by the same standard. Why should games be any different?
You think that The Last of Us and Crash Bandicoot are more or less the same when you get down to how the characters are introduced and how the story develops?

Some form of suspension of disbelief is required when consuming fictional entertainment, especially games. Therefore you not applying the same standards across all games but only Uncharted, shows the fallacy of your argument and issue.

It is YOU who has the problem. You're the minority. Go seek moral guidance and alignment elsewhere, not from video games.

 

[Blood Borne]

Nah actually I think the concept can be used super effectively, the criticism is of games that don't. So people getting defensive over it are just showing their own ineptitude.

People who have an issue with it and criticising it are the minority and are ridiculous and immature.

 

[Deleted member 1159]

People who have an issue with it and criticising it are the minority and are ridiculous and immature.

The concept itself isn't necessarily being criticized, the poor execution or way of dealing with it is. I'm not sure why you're getting your panties so wound up about it but it's an interesting discussion to me, not one I'm so emotionally tied up about though.

It is obnoxious to have this get tied to SJW politics or have morons say "if you criticize this you are ridiculous and immature."

 

[Blood Borne]

The concept itself isn't necessarily being criticized, the poor execution or way of dealing with it is. I'm not sure why you're getting your panties so wound up about it but it's an interesting discussion to me, not one I'm so emotionally tied up about though.

It is obnoxious to have this get tied to SJW politics or have morons say "if you criticize this you are ridiculous and immature."

The people who made it an issue are the ones who have their panties in a bunch. I mean, for them to even make it an issue in the first place shows how emotional they are.

Also, it is indeed an SJW issue. Most people who have an issue with it are leftists/SJWs, and that's because they suffer from ludonarrative dissonance in real life. I genuinely mean that. Not even trying to be funny.
The issue is SJWs have a worldview that humans are inherently good, they believe humans' "default settings" is that of good and they spend their whole lives trying to rectify this issue.

 

[Handel]

People who have an issue with it and criticising it are the minority and are ridiculous and immature.

Yes the immature ones are the ones arguing in favor of a higher level of video game critique, not the ones getting offended because they think this in some way will hurt particular studios or the industry from making future games, The vast majority of people consume things mindlessly, what does the critics being the minority have to do with anything here?

People like yourself hold back progress. All mediums under your mindset would have never become more than vapid entertainment.

 

[Handel]

The people who made it an issue are the ones who have their panties in a bunch. I mean, for them to even make it an issue in the first place shows how emotional they are.

Also, it is indeed an SJW issue. Most people who have an issue with it are leftists/SJWs, and that's because they suffer from ludonarrative dissonance in real life. I genuinely mean that. Not even trying to be funny.
The issue is SJWs have a worldview that humans are inherently good, they believe humans' "default settings" is that of good and they spend their whole lives trying to rectify this issue.

Yeah this is the point where I write you off as a hopeless case. Maybe in a few years you'll have something to offer to the discussion, go sit at the children's table till then.

 

[DS_Joost]

You guys are making this subject way too difficult.

I just played through the first 3 Uncharted games again, and I can see where the guy comes from.

In between the three games, you don't kill dozens, or hundreds, but thousands. I enjoy the games immensely everytime I play them, but this fact also crosses my mind every single time.

There is a lot of murdering going on in Uncharted. Not just a lot even, it's genocide almost.

The part that gets me is that it is over treasure. People are throwing themselves at you in literal waves over somebody else's obsession with some treasure.

THAT is the dissonance. It's not in the fact that there is killing in Uncharted. It's in the fact that the numbers border on genocide. Realizing yhat fact made me chuckle more than once during gameplay. I don't take those games seriously, they aren't meant to. But there is such a thing as hilariously blown out of proportion.

The amount of killing was hilarious. And not in a good way. Still some of my favourite games ever though. But when the amount of killing takes you out of a GAME you know something's up.

 

[DS_Joost]

The people who made it an issue are the ones who have their panties in a bunch. I mean, for them to even make it an issue in the first place shows how emotional they are.

Also, it is indeed an SJW issue. Most people who have an issue with it are leftists/SJWs, and that's because they suffer from ludonarrative dissonance in real life. I genuinely mean that. Not even trying to be funny.
The issue is SJWs have a worldview that humans are inherently good, they believe humans' "default settings" is that of good and they spend their whole lives trying to rectify this issue.

Serious question: do you review your own word vomit before you hit post reply?

I am saying this because you come across as some kind of ancient NeoGaf trope. Every word piles yet another trope on top of that. Stuff of legend almost.

 

[Chromata]

I think it depends on how serious that criticism actually is.

If someone is saying "Uncharted 4 is fucking amoral trash that allows mindless killing and says its OK and I will NEVER play it" then, sure, that's over the top.
Same as people losing their minds over Bioshock Infinite or whatever.

It doesn't mean that the criticism is 100% invalid.

Just as there are different games all trying to achieve different things, I think there are levels of criticism.

I think Batman doesn't kill people in the Arkham games right? Yet, they did come up with loads of cool and fun combat mechanics so...

People always go to Uncharted because it seems like one of the more obvious examples bit also because Naughty Dog are always being praised so highly for their storytelling and characters when actually there are some weird disconnects there that other games do a way better job of dealing with.

Uncharted always felt like it would be much better as a platform and stealth experience and the shooting gallery aspects are a bit boring and also out of line with the story part.

I agree there are different levels of criticism. I don't mind such narrative inconsistencies being there, but I respect others who do mind it. As you said, I have more of an issue with people who criticize it extremely (as in, "Uncharted's story telling is laughable and garbage because....").

The reason why I can't get behind arguments that knock Uncharted's storytelling for these inconsistencies is because that's not what makes Uncharted great. They aren't the "pillars" of what Uncharted was built upon. Neil Druckmann said as much in an interview reflecting on the development of Uncharted 4.

Regarding your last point, I would agree if we were talking about Uncharted 1. That game had way too many waves of enemies just being thrown at you and the shooting was pretty subpar. They paced it out better as the series went on and, by Uncharted 4, the shooting sequences were actually some of my favourite parts of the game.

 

[Blood Borne]

Yes the immature ones are the ones arguing in favor of a higher level of video game critique, not the ones getting offended because they think this in some way will hurt particular studios or the industry from making future games, The vast majority of people consume things mindlessly, what does the critics being the minority have to do with anything here?

People like yourself hold back progress. All mediums under your mindset would have never become more than vapid entertainment.

"Why doesn't a video game character feel bad about the people he kills" is higher level of game critique.
You really do believe in your own bullshit

 

[Saruhashi]

The concept itself isn't necessarily being criticized, the poor execution or way of dealing with it is. I'm not sure why you're getting your panties so wound up about it but it's an interesting discussion to me, not one I'm so emotionally tied up about though.

It is obnoxious to have this get tied to SJW politics or have morons say "if you criticize this you are ridiculous and immature."

Yeah, I don't get it.

It's not like people are calling for Uncharted to be banned or for Uncharted to be a shining beacon of morality in modern culture.

Just that it IS a bit weird that the in game actions do not align so well with the cinematic storytelling bits.

 

[Blood Borne]

Serious question: do you review your own word vomit before you hit post reply?

I am saying this because you come across as some kind of ancient NeoGaf trope. Every word piles yet another trope on top of that. Stuff of legend almost.

I'm guessing I touched a nerve

 

[thelastword]

Morals in games? Are people evaluating their lives and consciences through games? Games are simply a hobby, an ideal platform of escapism......People are reading way too much into this...…..

 

[DS_Joost]

I'm guessing I touched a nerve

Yes you touched a nerve by taking an actually interesting discussion and quickly adding "but SJWs bruh" to it that adds absolute fuck all to any sane argument given here.

 

[Saruhashi]

Some form of suspension of disbelief is required when consuming fictional entertainment, especially games. Therefore you not applying the same standards across all games but only Uncharted, shows the fallacy of your argument and issue.

It is YOU who has the problem. You're the minority. Go seek moral guidance and alignment elsewhere, not from video games.

Haha. I think honestly you are taking it a bit too seriously.

I don't think anyone is getting ready to ask that the game be banned or even that future Uncharted games be approached differently. They are fun games.

It's still a valid aspect of criticism.

If someone wants to make a game that tells a story then how do they reconcile events in the story with events in gameplay?
If a developer fails to match up character and story aspects with aspects of gameplay then is that worthy of critique?

Maybe better to look at it from a different angle?
Would a developer be worthy of praise if they managed to create a videogame equivalent to Watchmen or The Dark Knight in trying to provide some aspect of realism or "deconstruction" or would that just be seen as shit because games are just supposed to be fun?

 

[Saruhashi]

Morals in games? Are people evaluating their lives and consciences through games? Games are simply a hobby, an ideal platform of escapism......People are reading way too much into this...…..

This makes no fucking sense.
There have been efforts to get some kind of storytelling into games since even the very early days.
It really doesn't matter because tons modern games have some kind of fictional storytelling attached to them to some extent.

People have been taking morals and lessons and inspiration from fictional stories since... well, since forever.
It's video games though so it doesn't count or something? It's just escapism and that's it?

 

[Blood Borne]

Haha. I think honestly you are taking it a bit too seriously.

I don't think anyone is getting ready to ask that the game be banned or even that future Uncharted games be approached differently. They are fun games.

It's still a valid aspect of criticism.

If someone wants to make a game that tells a story then how do they reconcile events in the story with events in gameplay?
If a developer fails to match up character and story aspects with aspects of gameplay then is that worthy of critique?

Maybe better to look at it from a different angle?
Would a developer be worthy of praise if they managed to create a videogame equivalent to Watchmen or The Dark Knight in trying to provide some aspect of realism or "deconstruction" or would that just be seen as shit because games are just supposed to be fun?

Have you ever thought that maybe, just maybe, that millions of people like the way Uncharted is, and they have no issue with this ludo bullshit?

 

[Saruhashi]

Have you ever thought that maybe, just maybe, that millions of people like the way Uncharted is, and they have no issue with this ludo bullshit?

Sure. I like Uncharted just the way it is too.

Doesn't mean I can't have opinions on it or that I should keep my opinions to myself.

What's the point in logging on for gaming discussions if you're not allowed to discuss without people getting uppity because there's a disconnect between the story of Uncharted and the amount of dudes Nathan Drake ends up killing.

If I say something about Luke Skywalker killing 2 million building contractors when he blew up the Death Star would you get on my case about that too?

Relax. It's not an all or nothing scenario.

Shit, I don't even see it as criticism of the game. It's just an interesting quirk of the way that these games, especially Uncharted, work.

 

[llien]

WTF is ludonarrative dissonance?

It sounds like a board game with a story for posh twats

I was told it's a form of Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious

 

[Chromata]

Morals in games? Are people evaluating their lives and consciences through games? Games are simply a hobby, an ideal platform of escapism......People are reading way too much into this...…..

Video games are just as capable of delivering meaningful messages as any other form of art, in some ways even moreso because it's interactive. There is no reason why we cannot have complicated and well thought out narratives in games (we already do).

It can be a form of escapism for some, but I do not play video games to escape from reality at all.

 

[TheGreatYosh]

There it is! That bullshit term that was all over old GAF.

 

[thelastword]

This makes no fucking sense.
There have been efforts to get some kind of storytelling into games since even the very early days.
It really doesn't matter because tons modern games have some kind of fictional storytelling attached to them to some extent.

People have been taking morals and lessons and inspiration from fictional stories since... well, since forever.
It's video games though so it doesn't count or something? It's just escapism and that's it?

Video games are just as capable of delivering meaningful messages as any other form of art, in some ways even moreso because it's interactive. There is no reason why we cannot have complicated and well thought out narratives in games (we already do).

It can be a form of escapism for some, but I do not play video games to escape from reality at all.

There can be meaningful messages and there are, but video games is not primarily the place for delivering such messages......Like no parent should leave video-games to teach their children right from wrong...….The medium is multi-faceted no doubt and I love that some games can teach and touch on subjects that elaborates on some problematic issues like "Concrete Genie" with bullying, but by and large video games are about fantasy story telling.....God of War, Uncharted.....Even the movie Indiana Jones, you think one man would be lucky enough to survive all these near falls and pitfalls? It's not realistic.....

Drake killing many people in a gaming world is as realistic as Soap killing a million soldiers in Modern Warfare and that has a deeper hook into realism with it's war aesthetic......At no point playing Uncharted did I find drake to be a mass murderer......There are mass murderers out there who care little about video games, there's no need to make the connection to such people with Drake, who is only a fictional character in a video-game which we indulge in as a hobby.....We are going way too far with this thing.....

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

This summarize my thoughts on the 3deep5me topic of ludonarrative dissonance:

 

[EverydayBeast]

I think the problem is both Uncharted 1&2 were more Hollywood action vibe but later games especially 4th game (still enjoyed) went for more grounded vibe and also they made Drake more grounded character which makes harder for us to believe Drake able to kill so many people and still be fine with it.

ND delivers emotional stories and I don't think the developers realized they'd get backlash from someone complaining about the X amount of kills in a SHOOTER GAME, before anyone plays Uncharted they should probably know someone is doing to die.

 

[Chromata]

There can be meaningful messages and there are, but video games is not primarily the place for delivering such messages......Like no parent should leave video-games to teach their children right from wrong...….The medium is multi-faceted no doubt and I love that some games can teach and touch on subjects that elaborates on some problematic issues like "Concrete Genie" with bullying, but by and large video games are about fantasy story telling.....God of War, Uncharted.....Even the movie Indiana Jones, you think one man would be lucky enough to survive all these near falls and pitfalls? It's not realistic.....

Drake killing many people in a gaming world is as realistic as Soap killing a million soldiers in Modern Warfare and that has a deeper hook into realism with it's war aesthetic......At no point playing Uncharted did I find drake to be a mass murderer......There are mass murderers out there who care little about video games, there's no need to make the connection to such people with Drake, who is only a fictional character in a video-game which we indulge in as a hobby.....We are going way too far with this thing.....

Yes, parents shouldn't leave video games to teach their children morality. I'm not saying they're a substitute for real world lessons, I'm saying they don't have to be mindless entertainment and can carry important messages. Thing is, just like everybody has their own opinion, every game/book/movie has its own message. Which messages you choose to listen to and resonate with are up to you. Parents can use media to help teach their kids alongside real world experiences, this is useful because video games are great for entertainment too. I believe that more interaction in education is important rather than solely relying on kids sitting in classrooms for hours on end with only books (which is why I love lab components in chemistry/biology/physics courses).

There are a lot of difficult parts in life that a parent wouldn't want their child to go through in order to learn from. We can't learn everything from experience, but we can try to learn from the experiences of others. I think video games can help with that since developers often place their own experiences into their games, we already do this with books and movies (especially documentaries and history). Games also don't need to be realistic in order to portray their messages or inspire people since they can use one's imagination as a medium.

I don't think we are going too far with this because the media has always been complaining about video game violence. It's stupid, I agree, but it isn't anything new. That sort of discussion isn't exclusively for video games either, it happens for books and movies too. I don't see it ending any time soon.

 

[Danjin44]

ND delivers emotional stories and I don't think the developers realized they'd get backlash from someone complaining about the X amount of kills in a SHOOTER GAME, before anyone plays Uncharted they should probably know someone is doing to die.

Like said in my pervious post with old Uncharted games the story was much lighthearted and kind of Hollywood action flick vibe. With Uncharted 4 they try make Drake more relatable and grounded while still kill 1000 people, ND cant have both ways. Also for me this not about "morality" or "meaningful", its more about interesting characters, Caim in Drakengard is interesting because of that detail in the character development.

 

[48086]

This whatever narrative nonsense is basically making a mountain out of a molehill. Criticism is warranted if the creator advertised his/her work as completely realistic and grounded, but then puts in a lot of unrealistic elements.

Define "a lot".

 

[Ryu Kaiba]

The smart people got to this thread too late.. man the morons on the first page.. and this guy Blood Borne

 

[Ryu Kaiba]

There can be meaningful messages and there are, but video games is not primarily the place for delivering such messages......Like no parent should leave video-games to teach their children right from wrong...….The medium is multi-faceted no doubt and I love that some games can teach and touch on subjects that elaborates on some problematic issues like "Concrete Genie" with bullying, but by and large video games are about fantasy story telling.....God of War, Uncharted.....Even the movie Indiana Jones, you think one man would be lucky enough to survive all these near falls and pitfalls? It's not realistic.....

Drake killing many people in a gaming world is as realistic as Soap killing a million soldiers in Modern Warfare and that has a deeper hook into realism with it's war aesthetic......At no point playing Uncharted did I find drake to be a mass murderer......There are mass murderers out there who care little about video games, there's no need to make the connection to such people with Drake, who is only a fictional character in a video-game which we indulge in as a hobby.....We are going way too far with this thing.....

Video games are an art form and aren't just for kids is the answer to you're whole first paragraph, and it's ridiculous that needs to be said on this site.
You and Blood Borne are not even comprehending what you're reading because all of you're responses are "Stop tryin' ter take mah violence from games" when that's not what anyone is calling for.