This game seems like it was made with the purpose of being considered art. Taking dramatic storytelling cues just for the sake of taking dramatic storytelling cues. And that bugs me.
Soo far Im getting the same vibe I got off Bioshock Inifinite. Mostly a cruddy CGI movie. More story playthrough than video game with alot of unnecessary FPS corridor action padding.
I hope itll pick up somewhat.
I feel sorry for Naughty Dog if anyone feels that way. In my experience, blatantly creating something for the purpose of being considered art will NEVER turn well. It will be pretentiously stupid.
I don't see that problem with The Last of Us. They stumble and fall at some parts but I don't think they do it for any other reason than making a good story.
You'd need to tell Ashley to hide (by finding, say, a garbage bin nearby) or tell her to stay in a certain location, otherwise she'd hide behind you while Ganados would trip over themselves trying to whisk her away.
This is probably the best game I've played on the PS3 and Im only a bit above 50% after
Joel and Ellie jump off the bridge in Pittsburgh.
I love the atmosphere and world they created. It's just perfect. Most intense moment so far was
the downtown subway station when you see all those clickers for the first time. Also when you fall down the hotel elevator into the basement. You just knew some shit was about to happen. The environment being saturated by spores makes it even more fucked.
Also best weapon in the game is the bow. It has saved me so many resources.
Ashley was attached by the hip, almost literally. There were sections where you could throw her in a dumpster for protection and you could make her stand still in one spot, but mostly she was behind you. Occasionally the game would separate you from her and have you provide covering fire as she did stuff or ran for her life. Also, enemies could pick her up if they got too close and drag her out of the area which would be a game over.
All in all, it's probably the best REAL escort mission ever.
The art argument is, in my opinion, ultimately pointless as few are willing to take the time to define "art". You can't call anything art unless you have a definition for what constitutes as "art". And that is extremely muddy territory deep in the waters of subjectivity.
....
With gaming what I particularly dislike about the art debate is that it's less about defining art and more so pandering to an self entitled clique of art wankers, desperately seeking their approval for a medium that many people want to be viewed as grown up. And that really shouldn't matter in the slightest, especially when talking about art, which should always be a more personal thing versus a strict consensus.
i had felt, even years ago before i really cemented my ideas of why video games weren't 'art', that they were uniquely different from what most people consider art. and i agree that the reason gamers want that title is so they can feel special, because whatever time they've spent in front of their teevee has been more of an intellectual pursuit than just playing a video game.
i do think that whatever you want to call it, whatever video games do, should receive some level of respect. it's not easy to craft something when so many pieces fit well together. and that goes beyond graphics or story or gameplay mechanics, and just conceptually figuring out what the thing is and how it works.
Ashley was attached by the hip, almost literally. There were sections where you could throw her in a dumpster for protection and you could make her stand still in one spot, but mostly she was behind you. Occasionally the game would separate you from her and have you provide covering fire as she did stuff or ran for her life. Also, enemies could pick her up if they got too close and drag her out of the area which would be a game over.
All in all, it's probably the best REAL escort mission ever.
Your partners spazzing around a clicker isn't a "scripted" moment though. It's simply a design choice since them becoming frequently spotted would create frustration eventually.
If anything this tells more about the limitations of the ps3, rather than naughty dog themselves.
the re4 solution was great. there's no shame in copying a good idea if it works and makes sense. there should have been ways to have ellie hide if possible.
That wasn't a shot at The Last of Us or anything. Ashley can't handle herself in combat. It's an ACTUAL escort mission, and it's not broken or annoying. That's all I meant.
Your partners spazzing around a clicker isn't a "scripted" moment though. It's simply a design choice since them becoming frequently spotted would create frustration eventually.
I know it's not scripted. That's the point. There's a dissonance between the encounter design plus the atmosphere and mechanics, and the way your AI responds to the situation. They're two puzzle pieces that don't fit together at all.
And I know that's why they did it. But that's my point: I don't think it's a solution that benefits the atmosphere. Elizabeth invincible is also a solution, and one that doesn't make any sense, but works better (in my opinion) due to the general atmosphere of the game, the pacing of the encounters, and her involved-but-out-of-the-way presentation in combat. I didn't even see her half the time, and would usually just hear her voice when I wanted her to open a tear or something. It 'worked' in the context of the game universe while also making sure you never had to be babysit the AI (which would have been a goddamn nightmare).
The dumb NPC AI is frequent and obvious enough in The Last of Us that while an obvious solution to the encounter problem, is quite immersion breaking for me, because the solution is at odds with the encounter itself and everything the game has fed me so far. Stay away from Clickers. They'll one-hit-kill you without the upgrade and a shiv. Cannot choke them. Move slow as fuck. NPC RUNS AROUND LIKE AN IDIOT WOOP WOOP.
This is what I'm getting at with Naughty Dog's approach of combining a rich atmosphere and strong narrative with the act of play, not just cut scenes, and where I'd like to see it improve. Having me run from a helicopter into a building, get caught in a shoot out as the helicopter fires rockets into the bottom floor, tumble out of a falling building's window into another building, then peak with a rooftop battle against said helicopter. Despite being very linear and scripted, this is an example of Naughty Dog's amazing strength of making said scripting easily ignored as the act of play is so much fun. It's a tight, cohesive, and involving experience even if it's all smoke and mirrors. NPCs running around into hyped up killer fungus monsters while I'm shitting my pants in the corner is not. That's dissonance.
i had felt, even years ago before i really cemented my ideas of why video games weren't 'art', that they were uniquely different from what most people consider art. and i agree that the reason gamers want that title is so they can feel special, because whatever time they've spent in front of their teevee has been more of an intellectual pursuit than just playing a video game.
i do think that whatever you want to call it, whatever video games do, should receive some level of respect. it's not easy to craft something when so many pieces fit well together. and that goes beyond graphics or story or gameplay mechanics, and just conceptually figuring out what the thing is and how it works.
is such a perfect "fuck it, we're winning" weapon in multiplayer. I feel like half the kills I get are just catching people off guard from not having seen it in games yet
I know it's not scripted. That's the point. There's a dissonance between the encounter design plus the atmosphere and mechanics, and the way your AI responds to the situation. They're two puzzle pieces that don't fit together at all.
And I know that's why they did it. But that's my point: I don't think it's a solution that benefits the atmosphere. Elizabeth invincible is also a solution, and one that doesn't make any sense, but works better (in my opinion) due to the general atmosphere of the game, the pacing of the encounters, and her involved-but-out-of-the-way presentation in combat. I didn't even see her half the time, and would usually just hear her voice when I wanted her to open a tear or something. It 'worked' in the context of the game universe while also making sure you never had to be babysit the AI (which would have been a goddamn nightmare).
The dumb NPC AI is frequent and obvious enough in The Last of Us that while an obvious solution to the encounter problem, is quite immersion breaking for me, because the solution is at odds with the encounter itself and everything the game has fed me so far. Stay away from Clickers. They'll one-hit-kill you without the upgrade and a shiv. Cannot choke them. Move slow as fuck. NPC RUNS AROUND LIKE AN IDIOT WOOP WOOP.
This is what I'm getting at with Naughty Dog's approach of combining a rich atmosphere and strong narrative with the act of play, not just cut scenes, and where I'd like to see it improve. Having me run from a helicopter into a building, get caught in a shoot out as the helicopter fires rockets into the bottom floor, tumble out of a falling building's window into another building, then peak with a rooftop battle against said helicopter. Despite being very linear and scripted, this is an example of Naughty Dog's amazing strength of making said scripting easily ignored as the act of play is so much fun. It's a tight, cohesive, and involving experience even if it's all smoke and mirrors. NPCs running around into hyped up killer fungus monsters while I'm shitting my pants in the corner is not. That's dissonance.
Yes but is this due to technical limitations? Or inexperience due to naughty dog never have creating a stealth game before?
Because at the end of the day, Naughty Dog is a team that seems to excel at almost everything when it comes to game design. So I imagine if they can improve something, they would. I imagine, in the end, the ps3 can only do so much, and I'm sure inexperience came into play as well.
I know it's not scripted. That's the point. There's a dissonance between the encounter design plus the atmosphere and mechanics, and the way your AI responds to the situation. They're two puzzle pieces that don't fit together at all.
And I know that's why they did it. But that's my point: I don't think it's a solution that benefits the atmosphere. Elizabeth invincible is also a solution, and one that doesn't make any sense, but works better (in my opinion) due to the general atmosphere of the game, the pacing of the encounters, and her involved-but-out-of-the-way presentation in combat. I didn't even see her half the time, and would usually just hear her voice when I wanted her to open a tear or something. It 'worked' in the context of the game universe while also making sure you never had to be babysit the AI (which would have been a goddamn nightmare).
The dumb NPC AI is frequent and obvious enough in The Last of Us that while an obvious solution to the encounter problem, is quite immersion breaking for me, because the solution is at odds with the encounter itself and everything the game has fed me so far. Stay away from Clickers. They'll one-hit-kill you without the upgrade and a shiv. Cannot choke them. Move slow as fuck. NPC RUNS AROUND LIKE AN IDIOT WOOP WOOP.
This is what I'm getting at with Naughty Dog's approach of combining a rich atmosphere and strong narrative with the act of play, not just cut scenes, and where I'd like to see it improve. Having me run from a helicopter into a building, get caught in a shoot out as the helicopter fires rockets into the bottom floor, tumble out of a falling building's window into another building, then peak with a rooftop battle against said helicopter. Despite being very linear and scripted, this is an example of Naughty Dog's amazing strength of making said scripting easily ignored as the act of play is so much fun. It's a tight, cohesive, and involving experience even if it's all smoke and mirrors. NPCs running around into hyped up killer fungus monsters while I'm shitting my pants in the corner is not. That's dissonance.
Immersion is a massive part of the Last Of Us' appeal. The way your AI partners were handled heavily detracts from it and ultimately brings the game down a few notches.
i had felt, even years ago before i really cemented my ideas of why video games weren't 'art', that they were uniquely different from what most people consider art. and i agree that the reason gamers want that title is so they can feel special, because whatever time they've spent in front of their teevee has been more of an intellectual pursuit than just playing a video game.
i do think that whatever you want to call it, whatever video games do, should receive some level of respect. it's not easy to craft something when so many pieces fit well together. and that goes beyond graphics or story or gameplay mechanics, and just conceptually figuring out what the thing is and how it works.
I guess my problem, specifically with The Last of Us, is that the only real "gameplay" or "interactive" moments to help develop the relationship between Joel is either shooting guys that grab her, lifting her up, or finding something for her to float on. The game has to "cheat" by
letting you play as Ellie for an entire chapter so that you can get into her head
, but there's nothing really there that would engender a father-daughter dynamic.
Yeah, there are optional conversations, but I don't really count that as gameplay. They're just better versions of the audiologs that you'd find in any other game.
If part of what the game wanted to ask was - "what would a father do for his child?" or
Having your partners being beside you was probably done to add a bit of intimacy and an element of camaraderie. If they hung back a bit I don't think they'd be spazzing out nearly as much. It's especially strange when I drag a guy behind a wall while his partner isn't looking and quietly taking him out only for Ellie to yell, "HOLY SHIT!"
Well, the game is amazing and isn't dragged down by Ashley in the slightest. In terms of real escort missions, it's almost flawless execution. I don't even consider The Last of Us an escort mission, Ellie is plenty capable. It's more of a "road movie" game (road game?) where Joel just happens to be more experienced at combat and survival.
Maybe it's an escort in tone, but in mechanics it's not what we've come to know as an "escort mission."
the re4 solution was great. there's no shame in copying a good idea if it works and makes sense. there should have been ways to have ellie hide if possible.
they kinda screwed the pooch then when they wrote a story about a guy escorting a young girl then.
Well, the game is amazing and isn't dragged down by Ashley in the slightest. In terms of real escort missions, it's almost flawless execution. I don't even consider The Last of Us an escort mission, Ellie is plenty capable. It's more of a "road movie" game (road game?) where Joel just happens to be more experienced at combat and survival.
Maybe it's an escort in tone, but in mechanics it's not what we've come to know as an "escort mission."
Immersion is a massive part of the Last Of Us' appeal. The way your AI partners were handled heavily detracts from it and ultimately brings the game down a few notches.
If you encountered it. Personally my AI always stayed close and was never running around the map aimlessly like a chicken. I have no idea how I would even replicate that.
There's literally nothing they could have done to "fix" this. Inevitably the AI would always screw you over, intentionally or not. Having them wait in the previous room while you face 8 armed dudes or infected would have been worse because at least when shot hits the fan they can help you out as it stands.
Well, the game is amazing and isn't dragged down by Ashley in the slightest. In terms of real escort missions, it's almost flawless execution. I don't even consider The Last of Us an escort mission, Ellie is plenty capable. It's more of a "road movie" game (road game?) where Joel just happens to be more experienced at combat and survival.
Maybe it's an escort in tone, but in mechanics it's not what we've come to know as an "escort mission."
Oh sure. Like Bioshock Infinite, the escort is limited to plot and has almost nothing to do with the game mechanics itself. And honestly, having to manage another character while worrying about your own health can get annoying, so I understand why they'd just make the characters invincible/invisible and leave it at that.
I wonder if it would have been possible to have more aspects of RE4, which seems to be a bit of an inspiration along with ICO, in this game though.
Ellie is almost never a burden, she fucked me up a couple of times on one encounter near the end, but it was my fault really, I was just trying it very wrong.
Yes but is this due to technical limitations? Or inexperience due to naughty dog never have creating a stealth game before?
Because at the end of the day, Naughty Dog is a team that seems to excel at almost everything when it comes to game design. So I imagine if they can improve something, they would. I imagine, in the end, the ps3 can only do so much, and I'm sure inexperience came into play as well.
Maybe it is technical limitations. Maybe it's their first time making a stealth game. Both good questions. But that doesn't change the fact I consider it a noteworthy criticism of the game and the way it was designed.
I don't think Naughty Dog excel at everything they designed, and have never felt that way, but specifically for The Last of Us I won't go into it until I've actually finished (as that would only be fair).
Immersion is a massive part of the Last Of Us' appeal. The way your AI partners were handled heavily detracts from it and ultimately brings the game down a few notches.
Yes, this is exactly what I'm talking about, and why I also mentioned the conflicting jump/fall length/height in the Uncharted series too. It's easier to ignore quirks of a game when those quirks are in no way a focus of the kind of game the developers intended to make. Naughty Dog specialise in cinematic, set piece and scripted sequence driven games with a very, very strong emphasis on story, narrative, and atmosphere. That is, at least, what they've done for this entire generation. And so when I find something there doesn't work, I can't help but whine about it on the internet.
I guess my problem, specifically with The Last of Us, is that the only real "gameplay" or "interactive" moments to help develop the relationship between Joel is either shooting guys that grab her, lifting her up, or finding something for her to float on. The game has to "cheat" by
letting you play as Ellie for an entire chapter so that you can get into her head
, but there's nothing really there that would engender a father-daughter dynamic.
Yeah, there are optional conversations, but I don't really count that as gameplay. They're just better versions of the audiologs that you'd find in any other game.
If part of what the game wanted to ask was - "what would a father do for his child?" or
Ellie is almost never a burden, she fucked me up a couple of times on one encounter near the end, but it was my fault really, I was just trying it very wrong.
Speaking of which, the only way I envision Ellie fucking you over is because you have collision with her and she could be placed in a bad spot. Otherwise a companion NPC being grabbed and you having to free them seems strictly like a function of forcing you not to rush to the exit in some situations where you're also spotted.
i think i explained it better in a previous post, but no, i think those could be considered art. a tv show doesn't usually function for a user.
like i said, you can find exceptions to everything, but this is just a general way of defining the two. one example might be the difference between a book and a story. the story is art. it exists outside the book. the book is design, and a good designer will follow certain rules to improve the readability of the book by eliminating widows and orphans, watching for rivers, choosing good fonts, and how many characters there are on a single line. the design of a really-good book will be invisible to all except those who look for it, and those who aren't will only see the art (the story) that remains.
Very mild objective spoilers to clarify the bit I'm on about:
Starting the generator to activate the keycard door in the hotel
And the full thing:
So, when I first went in to that area, I found the generator before I explored the full place, and tried to start it, only to be swarmed by 4 infected when I got to the second pull of the cord. Were these guys milling about upstairs? Like, could I have killed them first and got the generator started uninterrupted? I wasted a lot of ammo and took a couple of bad hits which left me screwed for the following section.
And speaking of that section, how are you actually supposed to it? It seemed like as soon as I turned around there was just a ton of infected on me, which would have been difficult on its own, given the room had 3 different entrances and I was really pressed for ammo, but then a bloater rolls around the corner and I'm wondering if it's even possible with the number of rounds, molotovs and nailbombs I have.
I got past it by just sprinting to the keycard door and bolting through it, but I'm curious as to what the strategy is supposed to be, because that looked really silly. I saw some explosive canisters lined around the corridor while I was running, so I assumed I was supposed to get them all to follow me and blow them up, but when I rounded the corner to the exit, another swarm (with ANOTHER bloater) was coming at me from the opposite direction, so I can't even see that strategy working if I'm getting fucked up the butt from the other group.
So how should I have done it? Or was this just a crazy difficulty spike? (as everything since that has been a breeze)
I'm just worried a similar situation will come up again later and I'll be stuck again.
Speaking of which, the only way I envision Ellie fucking you over is because you have collision with her and she could be placed in a bad spot. Otherwise a companion NPC being grabbed and you having to free them seems strictly like a function of forcing you not to rush to the exit in some situations where you're also spotted.
i had felt, even years ago before i really cemented my ideas of why video games weren't 'art', that they were uniquely different from what most people consider art. and i agree that the reason gamers want that title is so they can feel special, because whatever time they've spent in front of their teevee has been more of an intellectual pursuit than just playing a video game.
i do think that whatever you want to call it, whatever video games do, should receive some level of respect. it's not easy to craft something when so many pieces fit well together. and that goes beyond graphics or story or gameplay mechanics, and just conceptually figuring out what the thing is and how it works.
Very mild objective spoilers to clarify the bit I'm on about:
Starting the generator to activate the keycard door in the hotel
And the full thing:
So, when I first went in to that area, I found the generator before I explored the full place, and tried to start it, only to be swarmed by 4 infected when I got to the second pull of the cord. Were these guys milling about upstairs? Like, could I have killed them first and got the generator started uninterrupted? I wasted a lot of ammo and took a couple of bad hits which left me screwed for the following section.
And speaking of that section, how are you actually supposed to it? It seemed like as soon as I turned around there was just a ton of infected on me, which would have been difficult on its own, given the room had 3 different entrances and I was really pressed for ammo, but then a bloater rolls around the corner and I'm wondering if it's even possible with the number of rounds, molotovs and nailbombs I have.
I got past it by just sprinting to the keycard door and bolting through it, but I'm curious as to what the strategy is supposed to be, because that looked really silly. I saw some explosive canisters lined around the corridor while I was running, so I assumed I was supposed to get them all to follow me and blow them up, but when I rounded the corner to the exit, another swarm (with ANOTHER bloater) was coming at me from the opposite direction, so I can't even see that strategy working if I'm getting fucked up the butt from the other group.
So how should I have done it? Or was this just a crazy difficulty spike? (as everything since that has been a breeze)
I'm just worried a similar situation will come up again later and I'll be stuck again.
I have died multiple times because of the AI getting in the way. It's very fucking annoying, but I do see with the scenario design it would be VERY hard to avoid. I can't really think of another way they could do it aside from outright having them teleport around, which was done in Infinite blatantly to the point of watson creeperstatus. Making them move immediately out of the way would atleast help with the gameplay aspect, though the immersion breaking stuff would still be present.
Between this and The Walking Dead, nothing in a filmic format can really compare to manually having to do those moments yourself and knowing you could have also opted to not do them.
For me Bioshock Infinite, it is flawed in some aspects, lord knows by the end of the game I was suck of the combat but my enjoyment if its story and world made it for me and were more consistent throughout than the last of us.
Edit: also forgot to say but this game ain't the graphics beauty I expected it to be, in some places it's downright bad even.
Last, how are some people taking so long to finish? I did it on normal w/o listen mode and it took me just under 12 hours, and that seems short from this thread.
I have died multiple times because of the AI getting in the way. It's very fucking annoying, but I do see with the scenario design it would be VERY hard to avoid. I can't really think of another way they could do it aside from outright having them teleport around, which was done in Infinite blatantly to the point of watson creeperstatus. Making them move immediately out of the way would atleast help with the gameplay aspect, though the immersion breaking stuff would still be present.
There should be an automated animation that makes your character and an NPC turn side ways and very quickly slip passed each other. There are corridors that are too thin to stand side by side, so the NPC just sort of stutters backwards, slowly, it is annoying.
Between this and The Walking Dead, nothing in a filmic format can really compare to manually having to do those moments yourself and knowing you could have also opted to not do them.
The Walking Dead was kind of ruined for me by the ending, but that's a whole other thing entirely. Between that and Mass Effect 3, I think I've lost faith in the choose your own adventure nature of video games anyway.
I mean, hell, they could have pulled a Metal Gear and had you
shoot Marlene yourself to make Joel's choice to save Ellie YOURS instead of his. Instead, it's in a god damned cutscene.
I assume there are at least three different groups of hunters - the ones in Pittsburgh, the ones at the dam, and the cannibals.
Hell, even in the Fireflies,
Marlene and the Nurse are the only women
.
The Walking Dead was kind of ruined for me by the ending, but that's a whole other thing entirely. Between that and Mass Effect 3, I think I've lost faith in the choose your own adventure nature of video games anyway.
I mean, hell, they could have pulled a Metal Gear and had you
shoot Marlene yourself to make Joel's choice to save Ellie YOURS instead of his. Instead, it's in a god damned cutscene.
I assume there are at least three different groups of hunters - the ones in Pittsburgh, the ones at the dam, and the cannibals.
Hell, even in the Fireflies,
Marlene and the Nurse are the only women
.
The Walking Dead was kind of ruined for me by the ending, but that's a whole other thing entirely. Between that and Mass Effect 3, I think I've lost faith in the choose your own adventure nature of video games anyway.
I mean, hell, they could have pulled a Metal Gear and had you
shoot Marlene yourself to make Joel's choice to save Ellie YOURS instead of his. Instead, it's in a god damned cutscene.
because it's the moment that closes their story. If you choose not to, it leaves a much clearer route for a direct sequel. And you don't actually choose to kill that person at the end of MGS3, there's no option not to, it just waits for you to do it.
Between this and The Walking Dead, nothing in a filmic format can really compare to manually having to do those moments yourself and knowing you could have also opted to not do them.
It shouldn't be your choice, because it's the moment that closes their story. If you choose not to, it leaves a much clearly route for a direct sequel. And you don't actually choose to kill that person at the end of MGS3, there's no option not to, it just waits for you to do it.
It's better than nothing. Quite literally, in this case.
It's like how at the end of movies, they'll just flash paragraphs of text at you to explain what happens to the characters. Why am I reading when the whole point of a film is that it's comprised of motion pictures and sound?
it's not like that behavior isn't encouraged. telltale gives you a breakdown of people's decisions at the end of each chapter. it's only natural for folks to seek others out and ask what happened when they did blank instead of blank.
