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[Jobbs]

Spoiler

Of course it's relative, and we're talking about a hypothetical situation here. Neither choice is "okay", one has the potential (however little) to cure the virus plaguing humanity, and the other saves a child. In my opinion, one is the right choice to make and the other is the wrong choice, and I would gladly make the wrong choice, as would you. If you disagree that's fine, but in this situation there is still the big decision being made.

Spoiler

Cancer is a huge problem on this planet. It's a plague. I hate it. For every person it kills (or nearly kills) it ruins the lives of 10+ other people connected to them. Children die because of cancer. I hate cancer.

I have young children in my family that I care about very much. If you told me I could trade one of their lives for a cure for cancer, I'd say absolutely not. Never. No hesitation. And I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. The same people who called Joel a selfish monster probably would also call me a selfish monster, but I see myself as neither. Some things in life are just simple. I am incapable of making that decision, so it's simple. Asking me to end the life of a child I care about is the same as asking a table to be an airplane. Asking a table to fly a group of passengers to safety would result in no such thing happening, and the table would have no moral responsibility for it. Because it can't do that. It's just a table.

 

[Applesauce]

Something that confused me: I had a note that said there were four types of infected, but I only recall three. Were stalkers the (mid-game spoiler)

Spoiler

guys inside the sewers that kept running and hiding behind stuff until I got close?

They played exactly like runners except they never swarmed me..

1) Runners
2) Clickers
3) Stalkers
4) Bloaters

You first come across stalkers in

Spoiler

the hotel basement after grabbing the keycard, they have a distinct sound and look. IIRC you only encounter them in the hotel basement and sewers with Henry and Sam. Their behavior isn't as predictable as the others

 

[Stoze]

Vaccine =/= cure.

EDIT:

Spoiler

You are also advocating sacrificing a few for the greater good. I have never been a fan of that.

Spoiler

It can lead to a cure, and that is what I believe to be the implication within the story and Joel's choice. I'll boil it down to the semantics as you've done; as I've stated it's either Joel and Ellie or the possibility of everyone else. I'm not a fan of it either, which is why I wouldn't do it. I just don't consider it the right choice to make, but I'm okay with that. I would gladly make what I believe is the wrong decision. EDIT: Gladly is not the right word, but you get my point.

Spoiler

Cancer is a huge problem on this planet. It's a plague. I hate it. For every person it kills (or nearly kills) it ruins the lives of 10+ other people connected to them. Children die because of cancer. I hate cancer.

I have young children in my family that I care about very much. If you told me I could trade one of their lives for a cure for cancer, I'd say absolutely not. Never. No hesitation. And I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. The same people who called Joel a selfish monster probably would also call me a selfish monster, but I see myself as neither. Some things in life are just simple. I am incapable of making that decision, so it's simple. Asking me to end the life of a child I care about is the same as asking a table to be an airplane. It's just a table. It can't be an airplane. Asking a table to fly a group of passengers to safety would result in no such thing happening, and the table would have no moral responsibility for it. Because it can't do that. It's just a table.

Spoiler

You're just restating what you last said. I would make the exact same decision as you, for the same reasons. I just don't think it's the right decision. I'm okay with it being the wrong decision, and okay with being called a selfish monster for choosing my child over everyone else. You don't have to agree with it being two-sided or being wrong or right, I'm just telling my thoughts on the ending and the situation.

Spoiler

It's a weird chain of thought and you guys don't have to see eye to eye with me! I actually had a completely different opinion of Joel and his actions the first time through last year.

 

[Jobbs]

Spoiler

You're just restating what you last said. I would make the exact same decision as you, for the same reasons. I just don't think it's the right decision. I'm okay with it being the wrong decision, and okay with being called a selfish monster for choosing my child over everyone else. You don't have to agree with it being two-sided or being wrong or right, I'm just telling my thoughts on the ending and the situation.

Spoiler

It's a weird chain of thought and you guys don't have to see eye to eye with me! I actually had a completely different opinion of Joel and his actions the first time through last year.

Spoiler

I'm trying to go deeper and explain how there is no moral responsibility in choosing not to sacrifice your child, meaning that it's NOT morally wrong.

The day you can callously sacrifice your child for some perceived "greater good" is the day you have no humanity. The day we have no humanity, everyone look the fuck out.

 

[Stoze]

Spoiler

I'm trying to go deeper and explain how there is no moral responsibility in choosing not to sacrifice your child, meaning that it's NOT morally wrong.

The day you can callously sacrifice your child for some perceived "greater good" is the day you have no humanity. The day we have no humanity, everyone look the fuck out.

Spoiler

...And like I said, I disagree. I do believe there is morals in consideration when making the choice. Even if the alternative is pretty much unfathomable.

Your second line is not thinking hypothetically within the game. It's not perceived, there is a chance that this surgery on Ellie could create a vaccine for the zombie virus. In a world that has already lost its humanity.

 

[toastyToast]

Why doesn't Joel carry a knife?

 

[ArchedThunder]

Just bought this game today, did they fix the glitch where sometimes shadows don't line up right in 30fps mode.

 

[Hubb]

Spoiler

It can lead to a cure, and that is what I believe to be the implication within the story and Joel's choice. I'll boil it down to the semantics as you've done; as I've stated it's either Joel and Ellie or the possibility of everyone else. I'm not a fan of it either, which is why I wouldn't do it. I just don't consider it the right choice to make, but I'm okay with that. I would gladly make what I believe is the wrong decision. EDIT: Gladly is not the right word, but you get my point.

Vaccines don't become cures. That isn't how it works, and how are people with their faces all fucked up going to be cured?

Spoiler

And if we really want to play semantics, there is no such thing as a vaccine for a parasite and that is exactly what cordyceps are.

 

[Jobbs]

Why doesn't Joel carry a knife?

Spoiler

this is probably the most arbitrary "video game thing" in the game, because it's one of the key differences between playing as joel and playing as ellie -- and it's all "just because". whatever. I'll give them a pass.

 

[Stoze]

Vaccines don't become cures. That isn't how it works, and how are people with their faces all fucked up going to be cured?

Spoiler

I didn't say they became cures, I said they lead to it. "Cure" is an incredibly lose term anyway, and you should know what I mean by saying the vaccine could "cure" CBI or be the "cure" for humanity; It could remedy the crysis that is plaguing humanity, not immediately unzombify everyone on earth, but by possibly eradicating a disease/virus over time. I don't think I need to elaborate further on that, especially when it has no effect on what I was saying about decision making and morality, and if you think it does, than I miss wrote something because it dosen't.

 

[flipswitch]

 

[Hubb]

Spoiler

I didn't say they became cures, I said they lead to it. "Cure" is an incredibly lose term anyway, and you should know what I mean by saying the vaccine could "cure" CBI or be the "cure" for humanity; It could remedy the crysis that is plaguing humanity, not immediately unzombify everyone on earth, but by possibly eradicating a disease/virus over time. I don't think I need to elaborate further on that, especially when it has no effect on what I was saying about decision making and morality, and if you think it does, than I miss wrote something because it dosen't.

Spoiler

There is no such thing as a vaccine for a parasite and that is exactly what cordyceps are.

Spoiler

You are saying that the morally right decision is to let them kill Ellie for whatever reason you think. Why is it morally right to murder Ellie just because maybe there is some small chance something may happen? That was your original point right? So should the USA purposely cause cancer in people so it has a chance to cure it? Where do we draw the line, what % chance for success, how many people get sacrificed before it is too many? I have no idea why people think letting them kill Ellie is the morally right thing to do, or that is has any chance of "saving humanity".

In fact, sacrificing a child seems like the least humane thing to do. Specially when everyone else you are introduced to are adults.

 

[the_batman]

Why doesn't Joel carry a knife?

he carries shivs..

 

[Windam]

I love how Survivor mode takes the "no supplies" thing seriously. I had to beat the

Spoiler

Sniper in the Suburbs

with 3 pistol shots, 1 shotgun and shorty shell, and 1 smoke bomb. So goddamn frustrating, especially seeing as I had no health kit and my health was in the red the whole time.

Is there any way to go back and pick up missed Articfacts and Training Manuals and have them carry over to where you currently are in the game, without replaying past Chapters on the same difficulty?

 

[Hubb]

I love how Survivor mode takes the "no supplies" thing seriously. I had to beat the

Spoiler

Sniper in the Suburbs

with 3 pistol shots, 1 shotgun and shorty shell, and 1 smoke bomb. So goddamn frustrating, especially seeing as I had no health kit and my health was in the red the whole time.

Is there any way to go back and pick up missed Articfacts and Training Manuals and have them carry over to where you currently are in the game, without replaying past Chapters on the same difficulty?

The game has a separate save file for your collectibles, but no you can't go back and pick up something you miss and have it carry over to where you are currently.

It does carry over to your next playthrough no matter what difficulty you select as long as it is NG+.

 

[Windam]

The game has a separate save file for your collectibles, but no you can't go back and pick up something you miss and have it carry over to where you are currently.

It does carry over to your next playthrough no matter what difficulty you select as long as it is NG+.

Aw goddammit. Thanks. I was planning on going Grounded or Survivor again for my NG+. I have no hope for those collectibles trophies. Oh well.

 

[flipswitch]

Ragdolls are pretty neat.

 

[Hubb]

Aw goddammit. Thanks. I was planning on going Grounded or Survivor again for my NG+. I have no hope for those collectibles trophies. Oh well.

That shouldn't be a problem, you could even NG+ on Easy when you are ready for a collectible run. You should only have to pick up what you missed previously. I think the only things that don't carry over are Ellie's jokes.

 

[Artex]

Ha, brutal.

 

[Stoze]

Spoiler

You are saying that the morally right decision is to let them kill Ellie for whatever reason you think. Why is it morally right to murder Ellie just because maybe there is some small chance something may happen? That was your original point right? So should the USA purposely cause cancer in people so it has a chance to cure it? Where do we draw the line, what % chance for success, how many people get sacrificed before it is too many? I have no idea why people think letting them kill Ellie is the morally right thing to do, or that is has any chance of "saving humanity".

In fact, sacrificing a child seems like the least humane thing to do. Specially when everyone else you are introduced to are adults.

Spoiler

"Whatever reason you think" and "something", are what I believe to be a fathomable, decent possibility at eradicating CBI, the human race stopped from being infected and maybe start to recover. My original point was to get others to consider (and tell of what I considered) "Well I would do the same thing", and think about if that thing is right or wrong. For me, a morally wrong decision dosen't mean one that has to be shameful, or one that isn't in the interest of saving loved ones or in self defense. I take base morality as a more pragmatic definition in this case, others don't have to see it that way or even have the same spectrum. My second point was to lay out the choice of Ellie vs everyone else without investigating firefly motives, doctor skills and ability to extract from Ellie, exact vaccine success percentages, etc., because I think there's meant to be a decent chance of Ellie's condition being able to create a "vaccine", "cure", "parasite medicine", whatever vernacular you wish to use.

How or why do I think there's a decent chance? Because that is how I felt it was presented to me through the writing, storytelling, and dialogue in game. I feel digging up constant what-ifs, circulating around what information wasn't given to you, and devolving definitions of vaccine, parasite, and cure to work around choices are excuses that undermine the weight behind Joel's decision to save Ellie. And yes, I believe it was a decision.

 

[Apath]

1) Runners
2) Clickers
3) Stalkers
4) Bloaters

You first come across stalkers in

Spoiler

the hotel basement after grabbing the keycard, they have a distinct sound and look. IIRC you only encounter them in the hotel basement and sewers with Henry and Sam. Their behavior isn't as predictable as the others

Ah, I do remember that. Really though, they are basically runners except they just run and hide until you get close. Less predictable is a good way to put it.

I'm actually surprised they didn't have a moment where a bunch of hunters are fighting a swarm of infected while you have to sneak by.

 

[Hubb]

Spoiler

How or why do I think there's a decent chance? Because that is how I felt it was presented to me through the writing, storytelling, and dialogue in game. I feel digging up constant what-ifs, circulating around what information wasn't given to you, and devolving definitions of vaccine, parasite, and cure to work around choices are excuses that undermine the weight behind Joel's decision to save Ellie. And yes, I believe it was a decision.

Spoiler

I never said it wasn't a decision, and you are free to think there was a decent chance. I don't know where you got that through the games story telling. No one even got a chance to examine Ellie expect for a few hours at the end of the game. And it is impossible to not bring up what ifs (you are doing it to!), without knowing about what happens afterwards we can only speculate. I'm sorry you think I am devolving this to definitions and not accepting you "cure-all" answer. But what is going to happen? You are going to shoot a clicker with a magical dart and it'll be cured? You haven't come close to convincing me on your pragmatic outlook on this. I fail to see how it is morally right to let them kill Ellie.

Even with the clickers gone, humanity is far from saved, and no guarantee it will recover.

 

[antitrop]

Ragdolls are pretty neat.

Could be straight out of a scripted marketing video. Incredible. The animation is perfect.

 

[Papercuts]

I'll always find it odd how underutilized Stalkers were.

 

[Abandapart82]

On my 4th play through and I'm almost done with survival mode. It wasn't until this play through that I realized you can use the bricks as melee weapons. This game really has some surprising depth.

 

[toastyToast]

I'll always find it odd how underutilized Stalkers were.

That one section where you're stuck with

Spoiler

Sam

had them, I think. They kept hiding and shit and waited for you to get close. Huge pain in the ass.

I think they have better hearing than Runners too.

 

[mstevens]

Nice.. Just got the plat trophy. I'll probably do Left Behind this weekend and never bother with grounded mode.

 

[Khayam]

I think I read here that on Grounded mode, the drops adjust to the way of playing, so that if you need ammo for a gun, you should finish off ennemies on the ground with a single hit with that gun.

I don't rememeber if that was for multiplayer or Single Grounded lol.

 

[plainr_]

I'm already itching for another Grounded run but it's taking me longer than expected to get the last MP trophy. Grrrr.

 

[MightyKAC]

To me the only thing that really disturbed me about the ending was

Spoiler

not that Joel took Ellie away from the firefly's knowing full well that her death could mean the cure for humanity but that he lied right to her face about it when she asked him point blank what ACTUALLY happened at that hospital and then swore on it. She deserved the right to know what was at stake and to make that sacrifice if she so choose.

But Joel KNEW what her decision would have been ( "It can't have all been for nothing") and that's why he effectively took away her ability to make it. And THAT'S what really makes him a scumbag in my eyes.

 

[Khayam]

To me the only thing that really disturbed me about the ending was

Spoiler

not that Joel took Ellie away from the firefly's knowing full well that her death could mean the cure for humanity but that he lied right to her face about it when she asked him point blank what ACTUALLY happened at that hospital and then swore on it. She deserved the right to know what was at stake and to make that sacrifice if she so choose.

But Joel KNEW what her decision would have been ( "It can't have all been for nothing") and that's why he effectively took away her ability to make it. And THAT'S what really makes him a scumbag in my eyes.

You should try and read older pages on this thread.

Many would argue that

Spoiler

Ellie knew Joel is lying to her and that she's OK with it.

 

[MightyKAC]

Spoiler

Ellie knew Joel is lying to here and that she's OK with it.

That's a hell of a stretch of an argument but I guess that in the end we'll never really know.

 

[Cloudy]

With my conservation skills from the main campaign on Hard, the final fight in Left Behind was a breeze.

Experience was dampened a bit cos my DS4's R2 is broken so I had to switch to L1+L2 aim/shoot. No listen mode is kind of okay. I might do my Survivor+ run with it off.

Need to get this DS4 to Sony first though -_-

PS: Did I follow correctly or wasn't it proved in LB that amputation can stop the spread of the fungus ala Walking Dead?

 

[Cloudy]

I'll always find it odd how underutilized Stalkers were.

A lot of things are underutilized and will probably be used more inTLoU 2. Hunters vs Infected, Body armor only in multiplayer, No military-style weapons till the end etc.

 

[ascii42]

That's a hell of a stretch of an argument but I guess that in the end we'll never really know.

According to Druckmann:

Spoiler

“Then we come to that ending and that lie and that okay and what does that okay mean? It’s definitely not a complacent ‘yea I’ll go along with you’, in fact, it’s the opposite. It’s Ellie waking up for the first time, waking up and realizing she can’t rely on him anymore. While she loves him for what he’s done for her, she hates him for robbing her of that choice. She knows that she has to leave him and make her own decisions and mistakes.”

 

[Summer Haze]

According to Druckmann:

Spoiler

“Then we come to that ending and that lie and that okay and what does that okay mean? It’s definitely not a complacent ‘yea I’ll go along with you’, in fact, it’s the opposite. It’s Ellie waking up for the first time, waking up and realizing she can’t rely on him anymore. While she loves him for what he’s done for her, she hates him for robbing her of that choice. She knows that she has to leave him and make her own decisions and mistakes.”

Well, there it is....

The last sentence of that quote leads me to believe that the next game will

Spoiler

feature a grown up Ellie.

I really hope so, anyway.

Beautiful ending, I loved it. Ellie's expressions are amazing and are a real testament to ND's talent when it comes to hand-drawn animation. They tell you everything you need to know if you pay attention to them close enough.

Spoiler

You can see the disappointment and realisation in her face when Joel lies to her. It's ever so subtle, but it's there.

 

[lukeskymac]

Spoiler

I didn't say they became cures, I said they lead to it. "Cure" is an incredibly lose term anyway, and you should know what I mean by saying the vaccine could "cure" CBI or be the "cure" for humanity; It could remedy the crysis that is plaguing humanity, not immediately unzombify everyone on earth, but by possibly eradicating a disease/virus over time. I don't think I need to elaborate further on that, especially when it has no effect on what I was saying about decision making and morality, and if you think it does, than I miss wrote something because it dosen't.

Cure
noun
a substance or treatment that cures a disease or condition

CBI is incurable, it completely fucks the brain, and in the case of stalkers/clickers/bloaters it even tears people's goddamn eyeballs out.

The Fireflies (and pretty much everyone in the US) lack any kind of structure to mass produce a vaccine, let alone distribute it or convince people it works. At this point, it's actually easier to wait for all the currently infected to die out and kill the cordyceps strain with them.

 

[lukeskymac]

Spoiler

But Joel KNEW what her decision would have been ( "It can't have all been for nothing") and that's why he effectively took away her ability to make it. And THAT'S what really makes him a scumbag in my eyes.

That's not the same thing as her knowingly deciding.

It doesn't matter, anyway, because it doesn't make Joel any more of a "scumbag". Which he isn't.

 

[Cloudy]

LMAO there's lock-on aiming in this game? Just noticed that watching a video of the costumes on youtube

 

[lukeskymac]

LMAO there's lock-on aiming in this game? Just noticed that watching a video of the costumes on youtube

For throwing bricks/bottles and for a second or two after kicking away an enemy that was grappling you.

 

[Cloudy]

For throwing bricks/bottles and for a second or two after kicking away an enemy that was grappling you.

Ah okay I knew that. Thought it was for shooting

 

[ALBOFIGHTER]

To me the only thing that really disturbed me about the ending was

Spoiler

not that Joel took Ellie away from the firefly's knowing full well that her death could mean the cure for humanity but that he lied right to her face about it when she asked him point blank what ACTUALLY happened at that hospital and then swore on it. She deserved the right to know what was at stake and to make that sacrifice if she so choose.

But Joel KNEW what her decision would have been ( "It can't have all been for nothing") and that's why he effectively took away her ability to make it. And THAT'S what really makes him a scumbag in my eyes.

Spoiler

what really makes him a scumbag was the mass murder of innocents. I hate that the game choose for me. I always find it disturbing when games make you do that.

 

[Artex]

Spoiler

what really makes him a scumbag was the mass murder of innocents. I hate that the game choose for me. I always find it disturbing when games make you do that.

Spoiler

They didn't, they just effectively put you in Joel's mindset. They made everyone the enemy to you.

 

[SmokyDave]

According to Druckmann:

Spoiler

“Then we come to that ending and that lie and that okay and what does that okay mean? It’s definitely not a complacent ‘yea I’ll go along with you’, in fact, it’s the opposite. It’s Ellie waking up for the first time, waking up and realizing she can’t rely on him anymore. While she loves him for what he’s done for her, she hates him for robbing her of that choice. She knows that she has to leave him and make her own decisions and mistakes.”

Ah, lame. I wish I hadn't read that. I thought the ending was deliberately ambiguous.

 

[Birgitte2004]

Spoiler

what really makes him a scumbag was the mass murder of innocents. I hate that the game choose for me. I always find it disturbing when games make you do that.

Spoiler

You were forced to kill exactly 1 innocent the entire game, the Doctor, and even that is questionable as to just how innocent the Doctor was, he was perfectly ok with killing Ellie without asking her if she was ok with it.

 

[Carnby]

While I was playing through Summer and Fall, I wasn't feeling the feels that I felt in the first time I played TLOU. I started to question if the feels were real or if I was just buying into last year's hype... Then I played through (late Fall), Winter, and Spring, and the feels came back.... Especially in late spring.

I am going to play this game on survival difficulty next. Normal was way too easy. I sneaked past most of the enemies, which means I should be fine with Survival.

My game completely glitched in a tense moment, and it pretty much ruined the section.

Spoiler

In each attempt to kill David, I stabbed him once before he killed me. On my third attempt, I stabbed him again, and the game went to "stab number 3" animation, and triggered Joel's section of the game. When Winter ended, I saw the word "spring" for literally half a second before it cut to Ellie looking at the wall.

 

[MMaRsu]

Does the NG plus game trick still work? I finished the game on Hard and I want to play on grounded+ so I started a new game + on hard and played the first chapter then when I spawned with Tess I did the chapter select and I selected the first chapter on grounded but how do I know it worked???

 

[toastyToast]

Ah, lame. I wish I hadn't read that. I thought the ending was deliberately ambiguous.

Didn't they do an epilogue during the stage play

Spoiler

and they were still together

?

You can gather that she knows

Spoiler

he's full of shit but the rest sounds like something he intends to use in a sequel if one comes to fruition. You can't just infer what she'll do.

 

[ascii42]

Spoiler

what really makes him a scumbag was the mass murder of innocents. I hate that the game choose for me. I always find it disturbing when games make you do that.

Spoiler

Mass murder of innocents? I don't remember a whole lot of innocent people. The closest thing to an innocent person that the game makes you kill is the surgeon with the scalpel. Everyone else is shooting at you and as far as I know you can sneak past all of the enemies on the way to Ellie.

Didn't they do an epilogue during the stage play

Spoiler

and they were still together

?

You can gather that she knows

Spoiler

he's full of shit but the rest sounds like something he intends to use in a sequel if one comes to fruition. You can't just infer what she'll do.

Spoiler

From what I read, it seemed like they were both still at Tommy's, but Ellie isn't really warm on Joel, and probably not speaking to him much, if at all. Which makes sense, Tommy's settlement is probably big enough that she can avoid him if she wants to and it's not like there's anywhere else for either of them to go.

 

[Ferr986]

Didn't they do an epilogue during the stage play

Spoiler

and they were still together

?

You can gather that she knows

Spoiler

he's full of shit but the rest sounds like something he intends to use in a sequel if one comes to fruition. You can't just infer what she'll do.

That epilogue was a deleted scene so I guess its not cannon anymore.

Spoiler

Mass murder of innocents? I don't remember a whole lot of innocent people. The closest thing to an innocent person that the game makes you kill is the surgeon with the scalpel. Everyone else is shooting at you and as far as I know you can sneak past all of the enemies on the way to Ellie.

Spoiler

Marlene IMO is innocent. She gave no choice for Ellie, sure, but neither Joel did. She was desperate to find a cure for saving humanity, she didnt like her choice too but there was no other way.