Fluffhead14
Member
What, exactly, are you not understanding about The Leftovers?
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
The Leftovers S3 |OT| The End Is Near - Premieres Sunday 4/16, 9pm on HBO
- Thread starter bodyofanamerican
- Start date
What, exactly, are you not understanding about The Leftovers?
Is this a trick question?
Just in the last page people are going on about how the mysteries don't actually matter and it's all about the journey. This whole show is about not answering questions and you're wondering what I don't understand about The Leftovers? Everything, everything that they setup and then never actually told you the purpose, that's what I don't understand about The Leftovers and you can say "that's the point", well, that's a dumb point. At least Lindelof tried answering the mysteries in Lost, even if some of the answers weren't satisfying.
("Actual" being the operative word.)
Fluffhead14
Member
So if a set up serves a character and doesn't involve intricate plotting of some grand plan, that means there was no payoff?
The world Kevin goes to is in service of his character, not stopping a flood that was never going to happen, or finding Evie, or finding out where the shoes of those 5 children went.
What, exactly, was brought up as a mystery, wasn't paid off and served no purpose?
Please, please don't say the Departure.
"and you can say "that's the point", well, that's a dumb point."
"Let the mystery be" doesn't really work for me when you like giving me a mystery every episode and then never actually explaining why it happened.
streetsahead123
Banned
The whole point of the show is that people desperately want answers that they're never going to get.
Also, I think the show being ambiguous about things like whether or not Kevin is actually in the afterlife or why the physicists wouldn't let Nora get in the machine is much more emotionally satisfying and true to the show than providing an answer would ever be.
And the show does frequently provide satisfying resolutions to mysteries, like the missing Jarden girls or whether or not the apocalypse would happen on the 7th anniversary
blame space
Banned
I don't desperately want answers
Fluffhead14
Member
OK, so nothing then.
My point about the afterlife was not that it wasn't explained. It's that debating whether or not it was in Kevin's head or not (which isn't really a debate IMO), or questioning the rules of a dream-like reality he found himself in, is missing the point. It was a creative decision meant to show how Matt was looking for a sign of a false prophet to give HIS faith meaning, how Kevin used it as an escape from HIS life, how Kevin Sr used it as a sign that HE would save the world. How people assign meaning and look for answers. Whether you find that satisfying or that the writers effectively conveyed this is a debate, sure. But to sit there and say there was no purpose is wrong.
Fluffhead14
Member
Say that then, not that Lindelof didn't explain anything on the show. Debating it's effectiveness seems more worthwhile than saying it makes no sense, because I'm not confused at all about what's happened on this show.
I thought it was clear that when talking about the mysterious, and they not resolving them, that when I said "purpose", I was talking about the in-universe reason for why that happened and what it meant. Of course the writers put it there for the purpose of advancing the plot or a character's arc, that goes without saying, everything has a "purpose", even if that purpose is just to be entertaining, but that's not the purpose I was talking about.
So, the point of the show is to let the mystery be, but when I say "that mystery didn't make any sense and I wish it did, and because it doesn't, it's unsatisfying to me", that's somehow odd? The character arcs make sense, there's nothing confusing there, it's the mysterious that don't make sense and that's by design, that's "the point", and like I've said multiple times now, that's a point I don't like.
So, the point of the show is to let the mystery be, but when I say "that mystery didn't make any sense and I wish it did, and because it doesn't, it's unsatisfying to me", that's somehow odd? The character arcs make sense, there's nothing confusing there, it's the mysterious that don't make sense and that's by design, that's "the point", and like I've said multiple times now, that's a point I don't like.
darkwing-buck
Member
Same lol I can go without the explanation of anything about the afterworld. Doubt they'll be back together though.
rocketskates
Member
I can't believe people are still hoping for answers regarding the Departure. The show is about the people, not the event. As viewers we don't need those answers.
Fluffhead14
Member
I mean I'm not sure exactly what "mystery" doesn't make sense, but if, for instance, you don't buy Kevin having to kill himself to rid himself of Patti, then sure, I can understand where you're coming from. There's a certain level of buy in inherent in the show. To me the writing, acting and world building they've done helps in a situation where you may ask why or how a character would do something like that, or "how it works". I may be wrong but I don't think there have been plot points introduced that were completely left hanging, though, like the outrigger or the temple on LOST.
I guess it depends on whether or not you'd say stuff like the Dog Man plot have been resolved ("he was just some loon!")...
(Also, remember that National Geographic issue?)
Byakuya769
Member
Ah yeah, forgot that.
Then Lindelof should stop raising question or act as if he isn't. I can accept the event of the Departure as the framing device and launch-pad for what he is trying to tell. The issue is that The Leftovers continues to put forth mysteries and questions that are unrelated to the Departure.
Lindelof is the one cultivating this kind of discussion because he's purposefully trying to hold the stick at both ends instead of giving clear definition or tackle the subject head-on.
On one hand, i can't blame him. He has done poor job giving answers. He failed to establish how a body like GR can exist and gain a foot-hold in the would he's describing. He failed to explain how GR can still operate freely in light of their type of actions (his proposed answer for that was the most asinine moment on tv last year).
He gave up on the GR this season and just blew them to hell, probably hoping we forget about the major part of the show they played so far and how you can't just gloss-over this kind of a turn (and partly because he had less eps).
The episode last season elucidating Meg was unsatisfactory; Last week's Laurie's episode and how her character was treated was unsatisfactory. Kevin's realization this episode seems to me to be too 'bare-bones' for the build up and too familiar from past seasons 'conclusions'.
And then you add Kevin's immortality and what makes him visit the 'other world' (He didn't go when he was deadly-shot by John. And was he ever successful in traveling when he tried to choke himself with the plastic bags?). Kevin in the 'hotel' talking to his real-world dad. Real shared afterlife? Real personal afterlife? Made-up in his thoughts world? How to the 'facts' of the experience align with any of these three options (talking and seeing real-world Kevin Sr. , seeing hundreds of people that he either haven't seen before or would have no way to know if each one was dead or alive, seeing Matt's wife).
On the other hand, not being good at resolving things isn't an excuse to be intentionally vague and shunning from picking one or the other. And you probably should stop raising more questions. He seems competent at promising beginnings but later appears as not have given due thought for the rest.
What are you talking about? Kevin went to the 'other world' when John shot him last season. And Kevin told Nora that he never went all the way through with chocking himself.
I think Saty means that he didn't die.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
I think there is a point where some of the mystery is just there to be incoherent enough to service the story. Trying to explain things that really don't need explanations would be detrimental. How would you even explain the afterlife world? Who would explain it? All Kevin knows is that it exists and he has control in the ability to travel to it when he dies, among with other things.
The Departure will most likely never be explained. We might get a glimpse into the nature of it if Noah actually passes through the machine, but that would probably be the most of it. Considering The Book of Kevin is a known thing in the future, I doubt Noah actually passes through into the other side.
Unless of course, we're dealing with a post-apocalyptic afterlife that has been brought back to the stone age in which Noah inhabits due to being incinerated by the scientists, and Kevin has turned into some type of figure head that brought the world "peace" via his nuclear holocaust. Considering the political nature of the afterlife, and is somehow turned into a worshipped figure there.
The entire afterlife isn't explained, but it's detailed in why people exist in it. It's most likely literal purgatory, seeing that everyone who is there has some type of baggage or connection to their past life that they are still holding on to. Which, while it may be a stretch, could be the reason why Laurie wasn't seen during the last episode.
Even with her suicide, she made peace and basically got closure with her family, and left a world she mentally had no more connection to due to the nature of things she can't grapple and cope with.
The Leftovers has a lot of dreamlike, surreal qualities to it, both in the "real" world and in the afterlife that we have visited. It's a show that takes itself both extremely seriously and constantly pokes fun at how absurd it is. It does that because it's literally a world that has had it's reality ripped apart when people popped out of existence. It's its own post-apocalyptic society that has been grappling with a loss of sanity and grasp of reality
The Departure will most likely never be explained. We might get a glimpse into the nature of it if Noah actually passes through the machine, but that would probably be the most of it. Considering The Book of Kevin is a known thing in the future, I doubt Noah actually passes through into the other side.
Unless of course, we're dealing with a post-apocalyptic afterlife that has been brought back to the stone age in which Noah inhabits due to being incinerated by the scientists, and Kevin has turned into some type of figure head that brought the world "peace" via his nuclear holocaust. Considering the political nature of the afterlife, and is somehow turned into a worshipped figure there.
The entire afterlife isn't explained, but it's detailed in why people exist in it. It's most likely literal purgatory, seeing that everyone who is there has some type of baggage or connection to their past life that they are still holding on to. Which, while it may be a stretch, could be the reason why Laurie wasn't seen during the last episode.
Even with her suicide, she made peace and basically got closure with her family, and left a world she mentally had no more connection to due to the nature of things she can't grapple and cope with.
The Leftovers has a lot of dreamlike, surreal qualities to it, both in the "real" world and in the afterlife that we have visited. It's a show that takes itself both extremely seriously and constantly pokes fun at how absurd it is. It does that because it's literally a world that has had it's reality ripped apart when people popped out of existence. It's its own post-apocalyptic society that has been grappling with a loss of sanity and grasp of reality
yeah shame on you if you actually want to know why the premise of the show happened.
............................
But in other news, why is he not dying?
Thanks for correcting. I actually didn't remember that last season (and can't recall what happened -- that's when he sang the song?).
Yes, he went back to the hotel and sang Homeward Bound
Lindelof teased the finale episode on the Entertainment Weekly Twin Peaks podcast (leftovers talk starts at 38:19)
Damon Lindelof said:
FantasticMrFoxdie
Mumber
Kevin is God now
blame space
Banned
Kevin has always been God. Have you seen that guy?
Yes that happened but I don't think that gives any increased plausability to the hotel being a "real" afterlife and not something imaginary.
Sometimes I have weird dreams and I wake up at the end of then. Does that make the dream world real?
I actually don't really remember the details on this. What critical information did he get from his father in the hotel?
Fenderputty
Banned
One can expect some answers about Kevin without expecting answers about the departure. The dude was shot, poisoned and drowned. I'm not hand-waving that away so I can pretend it's all in his head when there were other people who saw this stuff.
I love the show. I'm not Erigu. I do think falling back on, "it's the journey, man" each time there's some inconsistency is silly. The show can be great while still poorly executing some of it's parts.
He told him to take Patty to the well.
digitalrelic
Banned
He saw his dad through the TV in a hotel in Australia tripping on God's Tongue with a bunch of Aboriginal Australians. Which is exactly what Kevin Sr said happened to him in real life in his episode earlier this season.
He also saw God from the boat in Matt's episode.
He also knew what Christopher Sunday looked like without ever meeting him.
He also interacted with the Kevin the ladies killed by mistake, and knew what he looked like without every meeting him.
It's really odd to me that so many people are still clinging to this "it's all in his head" thing. The show has clearly been showing us all season that it's definitely NOT all in his head.
Ok so nothing real.
Edit: Digital I'm not ignoring your post. I'm on my phone and quoting is a pain. I'll respond later.
was just about to post this podcast.
basically "why do we as humans hope for some apocalypse, and when it doesn't happen, why is it a disappointment?"
He saw the Kevin on the television in episode 4 of this season. It is possible he saw Sunday and God on news reports or newspapers. Maybe he had contact with Kevin Sr at some point. It is all implausible but not 100% impossible, I think the writers intentionally leave it at least a little bit ambiguous. It is not wrong to pick either side if you want to pick a side. I think the main point is that it feels like a real experience to Kevin, and that it has an real impact on him.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
The argument for Kevin having fever dreams would be valid if
1) He wasnt poisoned and burried in the ground for hours
2) He wasnt shot in the chest and died, only to wake up like nothing happened
3) Has drowned multiple times and somehow not died
You need to suspend more disbelief for him not being dead at this point than simply recognising he is going to some type of afterlife
1) He wasnt poisoned and burried in the ground for hours
2) He wasnt shot in the chest and died, only to wake up like nothing happened
3) Has drowned multiple times and somehow not died
You need to suspend more disbelief for him not being dead at this point than simply recognising he is going to some type of afterlife
Pretty much where I'm at. I don't care that we're never going to know what the departure was, or where they went. The problem I have is that they've also introduced the whole Kevin thing throughout multiple seasons, and it's just become more evident that he is not like everyone else. You cannot explain that away by just saying "well, it's just his journey" and leave it unexplained. Everyone is on their own journey, that doesn't mean everyone can survive death.
The departure was a single event. Not explaining how it happened is fine because it's not necessary to the story they are telling, but everything else that's been unexplained and miraculous (bird in box, Kevin, Matt's wife awakening from coma, etc) are PART of the story. It's not unheard of to expect more consistency from the story being told. If they didn't want people to be unhappy with this, they didn't need to do it to begin with. These unexplained parts of the story are not necessary to the story anyways, so if they feel no need to explain them, we can simply write them off as cheap tricks to keep people interested, which isn't all that interesting.
In a world in which someone comes back from the dead multiple times I would not be very surprised that it is possible to dream while dead. I guess in that case it is a form of an afterlife but not necessarily shared.
MegaSackman
Member
Life of Pi, what do you believe?
Leftovers: Are there supernatural events and forces? what it's real and what's not? What is a ridiculous thought and what's plausible?
That's how I see the show, Kevin is clearly an special human beign for the series, do I need a concrete answer of what he is? Do I need a Christopher Nolan character to explain me in detail his character? Well no, I can form my own opinion and interpretation of what I've been told and that's all I need.
Leftovers: Are there supernatural events and forces? what it's real and what's not? What is a ridiculous thought and what's plausible?
That's how I see the show, Kevin is clearly an special human beign for the series, do I need a concrete answer of what he is? Do I need a Christopher Nolan character to explain me in detail his character? Well no, I can form my own opinion and interpretation of what I've been told and that's all I need.
Life of Pi works because it's an individuals journey seen through the protagonists eyes. It can be interpreted both ways because the character perceived it.
There really isn't any wiggle room when Kevin gets buried and emerges hours later and someone else witnesses it. Or someone shoots him in the chest and hours later finds him fine and dandy.
Kevin is clearly a special human being and we don't know why. Maybe it's because of his rock-hard sick-pack abs.....or maybe he's Jesus. One answer is just as valid as the other if there is no answer, nor even a hint at the answer.
keltickennedy
Member
Yeah, sadly more and more shows are using a similar formula. They are designed to keep people talking about it every Monday morning at work or through countless channels on the internet.
If you haven't...watch JJ Abrams TEDtalk about "The Mystery Box".
https://youtu.be/vpjVgF5JDq8?t=242
Some people will be more satisfied theorizing what something could be. They are more often than not left disappointed after being shown what it actually was.
Two tweets about the finale from people that already watched it (no specific spoilers).
https://twitter.com/TheMattFowler/status/869974881315602432
https://twitter.com/TheEricGoldman/status/869961393067261952
https://twitter.com/TheMattFowler/status/869974881315602432
https://twitter.com/TheEricGoldman/status/869961393067261952
None of those things prove (or even suggest, really) that the afterlife was real.
Of course there are supernatural elements to the show. The whole premise is supernatural.
FantasticMrFoxdie
Mumber
BTW they did answer how and why The Departure happened...
God Burton claimed responsibility for it, saying he did it because I could.
but
I'm not sure if he is God
or maybe Satan
or a recurring cycle in which a shell of a man gains the power of God - which Kevin is going through?
So was this episode a weird reference to God Burton's story of his own resurrection and Jesus & his twin brother.
Kevin went into the otherworld as the assassin and came out of it/died as the "The most powerful man in the world" and now he is God because he stopped the flood.
God Burton claimed responsibility for it, saying he did it because I could.
but
I'm not sure if he is God
or maybe Satan
or a recurring cycle in which a shell of a man gains the power of God - which Kevin is going through?
So was this episode a weird reference to God Burton's story of his own resurrection and Jesus & his twin brother.
Kevin went into the otherworld as the assassin and came out of it/died as the "The most powerful man in the world" and now he is God because he stopped the flood.
where is my mind *queue dramatic leftovers piano theme*
BrightLightLava
Unconfirmed Member
Sure you can want to know, but if someone has decided that the only way they are going to find the end of the show satisfying is if they find out how the departure happened, then they're setting themselves up to be angry. That answer isn't coming.
Fenderputty
Banned
Yup ... totally forgot about the bird too.
One thing to note, is that season 1 was based on a piece of literature. Season 2 and 3 are both interpretations of what would follow and it's told from Lindelof's perspective. Most of the supernatural shit started in season 2 and carries over into season 3.
As you note, none of the awesome character development and journey needed the supernatural either. So if you were always going to be inconsistent and turn heel with a "it's all in his head" approach, I'm going to be left wondering "Why?" It reeks of something to keep people watching. Season 1 didnt get the ratings that 2 did.
It's his show, so why should he stop raising questions? Why does he have to answer them? The one with the choice is you - the choice not to watch it. Seems like your time would be better spent not watching a show you don't like and then complaining about it on the internet.
That's just me, though. I've learned my lesson after shows like Dexter that punishing yourself just to be a completionist is such a waste. I've abandoned a lot of shows recently for that very reason: there's just too much scripted TV out there that I *might* like, so I can't afford to waste the little time I already have on shit I don't like.
Unless, of course, you enjoy watching shows you don't like and shit talking on the internet about them. No joke, you might actually enjoy that. Maybe you consider yourself something of a television critic. That's cool too. I'm just saying that if you're in it for the enjoyment and you don't enjoy the show then... why?
Hahaha, okay. Let's say the whole thing was completely unrelated, the stakes absolutely nonexistent, and Kevin would have come back to life regardless.
... Man, why would you want to make the show even worse than it already is?
Kevin Sr. also confirmed the burning bed.
But hey, "it could still all be a coincidence!"
I don't find it unreasonable to want the main premise of a show to be resolved at the end of the show. I don't give passes for no reason.
It's not unrelated. It's just not a real shared afterlife. I admit that your version of the show ,which is the most boring reading possible of the text, sounds pretty bad alright.