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[kirblar]

At most that probably amounted to a move every generation or two for a specific population. In eastern Europe Jews had to be more concerned about Pogroms that weren't ritualized, planned, and controlled. Being aware of the possible need to move would have been a much greater part of life fairly clearly.

A move every generation or two for a large part of two Millennia.

 

[Cocaloch]

It's a stupidly common misconception. The spectrum itself is useless except as a relative scale, mind, but you'd think people would at least look up how the spectrum even came to exist with the french revolution.

The words left and right as political signifiers date from the French Revolution, but applying that spectrum to modern day politics is about as meaningless as calling 18th century Whigs Democrats and 18th century Tories Republicans.

 

[Trojita]

I don't know - this just seems like it's about a woman who thinks it's in poor taste to capitalize on the events that transpired, who didn't take into consideration the... 'Religious ethnicity' (?) of the author, for who knows what reason. I mean we can get into whether or not the author being Jewish should have anything to do with the critique of the content she wrote here, but I think it's a stretch to say that this is some reflection of the lefts blindspot.

I think it's just a lady who thinks an article was written in poor taste, and someone saying that it wasn't in poor taste because the author is Jewish.

I'm not saying this shouldn't be a thread - but don't you think the degree of purity testing happening is a bit much?

This is what I said. It's so weird to base an article or thread using this as the jumping off point that antisemitism exists on the left.

 

[dragonfart28]

It's a stupidly common misconception. The spectrum itself is useless except as a relative scale, mind, but you'd think people would at least look up how the spectrum even came to exist with the french revolution.

If you're going by that characterization then it literally just means one group in government sitting on the left and the other on the right.

 

[Cocaloch]

A move every generation or two for a large part of two Millennia.

I'm not saying they didn't move, I'm saying collapsing the experience that people think of when they think of fleeing Jews into the experiences of medieval Jews with European states runs into problems. You're also running into some issues with chronology here, were 14th century Jews actually being educated in the professions at a significantly higher rate than other burghers? Wouldn't you find vastly diverging rates of this in Jewish populations from Britain and the Netherlands than elsewhere? Also I feel like an idiot for not knowing this, but were Jews even allowed into medieval universities?

 

[And_Gignac]

It's a stupidly common misconception. The spectrum itself is useless except as a relative scale, mind, but you'd think people would at least look up how the spectrum even came to exist with the french revolution.

Extremely stupid misconception, too. The burgeous left that sparked the revolution did it because they wanted economic freedom from the monarchy. It also holds no water in current contexts:

For example, the current US right wing appeals to the authority of religion, moral tradition and racial purity. Their mythos is based on authority, rather than freedom. Hence their obsession with the military and their hatred for anything-liberal.

 

[g11]

Historically it actually worked for them though.
Let's be real, Jews are kind of the wiping boys of the West for the last 2 millennia at least.
Most powerful countries could just literally steal any kind of wealth any jewish community amassed without any pushback from the majority of the population because they were kind of trained in not giving a fuck.
Heck in most countries not being of the state religion was reason enough to be killed on sight.

All true. I wasn't trying to imply Jews have been on easy street as a result or anything, merely that if Jews are disproportionately represented in finance and banking, that it's a self inflicted wound by Western Christians, and as a result (some) now cry foul about it. It's like if Wile E. Coyote tried to kill the Roadrunner and instead dropped the anvil on his own head and then the ancestors of Wile E. Coyote blamed the Roadrunner for the fact that they are orphans. It's ridiculous.

 

[radios shipping overview]

The Nazi's were facists, which is a far right ideology. The "socialists" part of their name was to make them look like there were "for the worker" like real socialists.

That was a really good plan, because they're still fooling people today.

Spoiler

I realize that a lot of people who argue that the Nazis were leftists are being disingenuous.

 

[Sheiter]

This is what I said. It's so weird to base an article or thread using this as the jumping off point that antisemitism exists on the left.

But the article isn't arguing that antisemitism exists on the left? It is only saying that the left can have a blind spot for it, and the article is an example of that as the Jezebel author only recognized the racism of the Charlottesville Nazi's and used that limited scope to criticize the Jewish author who was responding to the antisemitism of the Charlottesville Nazi's. The OP article is just saying that both the racism and the antisemitism existed but that the Left can tend to focus in on the racism and downplay or ignore the antisemitism, which resulted in the criticizing of a Jewish woman for taking issue with Nazi's, a stance that I think most can agree is justified.

 

[Brakke]

Anyways, I'm getting a little tired of progressive circular firing squads. What do you guys think?

I think you probably shouldn't perpetuate them, then?

 

[Cocaloch]

Extremely stupid misconception, too. The burgeous left that sparked the revolution did it because they wanted economic freedom from the monarchy. It also holds no water in current contexts:

Marx doesn't even make such a poorly thought out claim about 1848 where that case holds a hell of a lot more water.

Historically it actually worked for them though.
Let's be real, Jews are kind of the wiping boys of the West for the last 2 millennia at least.
Most powerful countries could just literally steal any kind of wealth any jewish community amassed without any pushback from the majority of the population because they were kind of trained in not giving a fuck.
Heck in most countries not being of the state religion was reason enough to be killed on sight.

Part of the Netherlands and England's incredible financial success derived from being aware that just stealing any kind of wealth you want from your people isn't particularly advantageous in the long run.

You get the same issue with proposing a simple Empires make states rich comparison. Spain flounders horribly, pace every Latin Americanist, for about 300 years. Yet Spain had the biggest empire for most of its imperial history and was, with the possible exception of France in absolute terms, the main state stealing wealth from the Jews.

 

[beelzebozo]

GOTCHA

not socially conscious enough

GOTCHA

think piece about think piece incoming

 

[Mael]

At most that probably amounted to a move every generation or two for a specific population. In eastern Europe Jews had to be more concerned about Pogroms that weren't ritualized, planned, and controlled. Being aware of the possible need to move would have been a much greater part of life fairly clearly.

The map is really just a general idea, in France for example you had waves and waves of expulsions.
Once Saint Louis was taken prisoner in Jerusalem, how did the authorities react? They threw Jewish people out for no goddamn reason.
there's a whole bunch of years where any time the authorities met jewish people they would just take their shit as property of the crown.
French Kings weren't so kind as to ritualize spoliation, they just took your shit and if you complained you would be lucky to not end on the pointy end of a weapon.

All true. I wasn't trying to imply Jews have been on easy street as a result or anything, merely that if Jews are disproportionately represented in finance and banking, that it's a self inflicted wound by Western Christians, and as a result (some) now cry foul about it. It's like if Wile E. Coyote tried to kill the Roadrunner and instead dropped the anvil on his own head and then the ancestors of Wile E. Coyote blamed the Roadrunner for the fact that they are orphans. It's ridiculous.

Of course, I totally agree.
And even then while they trained their population to hate anything to do with money as a moral imperative there was still a great need for liquidity so a quick way to get it was simply taking it from a captive population that is handling it.

Part of the Netherlands and England's incredible financial success derived from being aware that just stealing any kind of wealth you want from your people isn't particularly advantageous in the long run.

I would chalk that up to the difference between catholicism and protestantism but I don't know enough about that to make that claim.

You get the same issue with proposing a simple Empires make states rich comparison. Spain flounders horribly, pace every Latin Americanist, for about 300 years. Yet Spain had the biggest empire for most of its imperial history and was, with the possible exception of France in absolute terms, the main state stealing wealth from the Jews.

As a French guy, I was aware of the history of state theft by the French Crown but I confess I barely know anything from Spain. Then again with the whole stealing process from the Spainish empire of the New world's resources it doesn't surprise me.
Also from what I could find, most of the French theft of Jewish assets were before the New world conquest so I guess either Henry IV or something made them change their mind....

 

[captjohnboyd]

Speaking of lines, that's one I heard frequently. I went to Tulane which is very, very jewish and a large subset of the population believed jewish people did not and could not benefit from white privilege because they were jewish.

Totally separate from the conversation at hand I find it hilarious to think that anyone that went to Tulane thought they didn't benefit from white privilege when I see so much of it there. That's a school with a VERY rich student body and quite a bit of right wing bullshit popping up lately. To be fair it's mostly among the men there and it's still an amazingly small proportion of the student body but it's there

 

[ApharmdX]

Antisemitism in modern America is really tough to score. I think this statement from the article is fair:

Anti-Semitism must be fought, but on its own terms. This means not trying to fit anti-Semitism into the framework of other forms of bigotry. It's not racism. It's not classism. Treating anti-Semitism as its own axis of oppression—intersecting with others, but still distinct—allows for precision, and avoids over- or understating the case.

The "white" part of most American Jews' identity confers a substantial amount of privilege. The Jewishness part encounters prejudice, but it's different in form compared to what some other cultures see here in the US. I don't think Jews have the media portrayal problems, for instance. Economically they do extremely well, making something like twice the national median income, and they are the best-educated demographic in the nation. Jews are a model minority, like Indian-Americans or Japanese-Americans.However, there is deep-rooted antisemitism in our society, absolutely.

For me, I feel a bit of frustration at this article. It's an unfair frustration, but I think antisemitism is one thing in America that will turn heads and crystallize public opinion in a way that discrimination against blacks, browns, and Muslims does not. The ADL has actual teeth. If you run afoul of them they will fuck your shit up. But Americans don't like Black Lives Matter. And they don't care about Islamophobic travel ban. (just two quick and dirty examples)

That's not the fault of American Jews. It's the fault of America as a whole. We have all been taught from a young age that Nazis are evil. That's why it's so damn shocking that Trump couldn't get his denunciation right. It's much harder for Americans to realize, "oh shit, the Confederacy was also evil" or "oh shit, cops killing unarmed 12 year old black kids is evil too". That's closer to home and recognizing that takes a real gut check that I think much of white America can't do.

Anyway, of course the left should stand united against antisemitism, and police it in our ranks when it pops up. American Jews represent a core liberal demographic and we should protect them too, not marginalize them or pretend that they don't face their own struggle with prejudice.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Jezebel is shit and not really a good example of "the left" but yeah, there are definitely those who would call themselves liberals but are still anti-Semitic or racist in general

 

[Kin5290]

But the article isn't arguing that antisemitism exists on the left? It is only saying that the left can have a blind spot for it, and the article is an example of that as the Jezebel author only recognized the racism of the Charlottesville Nazi's and used that limited scope to criticize the Jewish author who was responding to the antisemitism of the Charlottesville Nazi's. The OP article is just saying that both the racism and the antisemitism existed but that the Left can tend to focus in on the racism and downplay or ignore the antisemitism, which resulted in the criticizing of a Jewish woman for taking issue with Nazi's, a stance that I think most can agree is justified.

You get it.

The issue at hand isn't that parts of the left/progressives are antisemitic, but rather that the left sees the terror of Charlottesville only in terms of race (specifically, racism against African Americans vs. white privilege), while ignoring the dimension of antisemitism that was also directly in play over the weekend. The Neo-Nazis and their fellow travelers made antisemitic chants, displayed antisemitic posters, and terrorized a Jewish place of worship.

So you have a white woman criticizing a Jewish white woman for commenting on Nazi terror, claiming that the latter is somehow making the terrorism about herself and her brand at the expense of black UVA students and townspeople.

 

[Mael]

You get it.

The issue at hand isn't that parts of the left/progressives are antisemitic, but rather that the left sees the terror of Charlottesville only in terms of race (specifically, racism against African Americans vs. white privilege), while ignoring the dimension of antisemitism that was also directly in play over the weekend. The Neo-Nazis and their fellow travelers made antisemitic chants, displayed antisemitic posters, and terrorized a Jewish place of worship.

So you have a white woman criticizing a Jewish white woman for commenting on Nazi terror, claiming that the latter is somehow making the terrorism about herself and her brand at the expense of black UVA students and townspeople.

I'll be frank, I was only part of the conversation because of the historical context that is uniquely interesting.
But seriously this is all kinds of fucked up.
Then again it's not the 1st time that you have people on the left going all "don't talk about this racism thing because it's not important".
Heck as already stated (not even sure about that) the Left in Europe tend to excuse outright antisemistism if it's well dressed as antizionism.

 

[wordballoons]

There is, without a doubt, an anti-semitism problem with parts of the left. There is also a problem of misusing the label to dismiss very valid criticisms of Israel from the left as anti-semitism.

I see much more of the latter in the US. I know anti-semitism is still prevalent in Eastern Europe, etc. but most of the anti-semites that I've here in the states are pretty fringe, conspiracy theorist types. US does have a large swath of the population that ascribes to various conspiracy theories, though.

 

[Steel]

If you're going by that characterization then it literally just means one group in government sitting on the left and the other on the right.

It literally was a differentiation between two groups of people, the nobles and the people who wanted to overturn the monarchy who sat together because of similar views. The right in this case was in favor of authoritarianism, the nobles.

As I said, it's always a relative measure, but being on the right has never been about "freedom" specifically.

 

[Cromat]

It's not anti-semitic to criticise Israeli policy.

Absolutely not. It can be though, when you use specific language, vitriol and double standards. This forum is very good at understanding complexity when it wants to ("not all Muslims are terrorists", which is clearly true) but is very happy to lump all Israelis together, use frankly disgusting toxic language at every opportunity, ignore the fact that Israeli policy towards the Palestinians has actually shifted back and forth like in every society, mention anti-Semitic tropes ("Jewish lobby") and make constant comparisons to the Holocaust whenever Israel does something wrong.
Imagine if everytime a black person or African country does anything bad everyone would chip in with "this is what the bastards do after slavery". That would be incredibly racist, and that is exactly what happens every single time here with the Nazi comparisons.

 

[Mael]

It literally was a differentiation between two groups of people, the nobles and the people who wanted to overturn the monarchy who sat together because of similar views. The right in this case was in favor of authoritarianism, the nobles.

As I said, it's always a relative measure, but being on the right has never been about "freedom" specifically.

As a French guy, as far as the left/right thing goes, Monarchist have ALWAYS been on the far right and they ain't about that freedom thing for more than 200 years now. Not in the slightest.
Heck even Bonapartists are more on the right side too, and as their cousin monarchists they don't really give a shit about freedom.

 

[Cocaloch]

Some elements of the right clearly conform to a pretty juvenile Lockean understanding of Freedom. The relevant question here is if a vague sense of "freedom" is always a good thing. The answer is it isn't.

 

[MattKeil]

Both of those require authority, but that's just my opinion of what left / right should mean.

Left being the appeal to authority and Right being liberty.

Your opinion is wrong. The right is conservatism, meaning lack of or resistance to change, and you can't resist change without authority. Left is the side of civil progress or liberty, which in modern times requires authority to enforce that liberty for the less powerful by controlling the more powerful.

Take either side to an extreme and you get an authoritarian nightmare, but conservatism by definition is more reliant on authority, because it has to enforce policy to resist change and progress.

 

[Muppet of a Man]

I really, really don't think so. In my own experience at least (again, speaking from anecdotal experience as you seem to be as well) it seems that some jewish leftists take any criticisms of israel wayyyy too personally and think it extends to the jewish religion or all jewish people. Like one of my good friends has been accused of being anti-Semitic for speaking out against Israel. She's a practicing jew.

I've witnessed this a lot, as many of my friends are progressive Jews who are against the current very conservative nationalist Israeli government.

The conflating of the religion and ethnicity in these instances can be problematic, as it becomes difficult to criticize the Israeli government for their actions in treating the Palestinians as second class citizens (or worse) without being labeled an anti-semite in many circles, especially amongst more conservative and/or religious Jewish people.

 

[Goodstyle]

I see Jewish people as just another type of white person, similar to Swedish or Italian people. I'm not sure if that's racist or not.

 

[Sheiter]

I see Jewish people as just another type of white person, similar to Swedish or Italian people. I'm not sure if that's racist or not.

I would say this isn't an issue 99% of the time. The issue is when the 1% situation occurs and there are literally Nazi's marching in the streets chanting "Jews will not replace us" and the antisemitism is ignored in favor of focusing 100% on the racism on display, when both are issues. This blind spot is actually on display in this very thread where many are either talking about Israel or whether or not antisemitism exists within the left, not even bothering to read the article or at least try and relate their point to anything mentioned within.

 

[Toxi]

Which atheists hate jews?

I've seen plenty. Anti-semitism is often based in racism, and Atheists are hardly immune to racism. It's also a common element of conspiracy theories, and again, that's not something Atheists are immune to.

 

[Kin5290]

I see Jewish people as just another type of white person, similar to Swedish or Italian people. I'm not sure if that's racist or not.

Jewish people still receive significant levels of hate crime based on their religion, so they're absolutely not "just another type of white person", even if most American Jews are white.

 

[Chichikov]

I have not seen a whole lot of evidence that this is an actual serious problem on the left, neither in the article nor in my many years living in the US as a jew. There might be less fighting over it, but I think that's mostly because antisemitism is not denied or downplayed by mainstream or mainstream adjacent political actors in the US (which other form of racism certainly do) and because as the article itself accurately point out "[the] structural racism in the U.S. does not primarily target Jews, and to focus only on anti-Semitism would be myopic".

I don't know, maybe I have a blind spot, but I think I need a bit more of a persuasive argument than this one Jezebel article and the fact that Bernie Sanders didn't mention the Jews in a tweet about neo-nazis.

p.s.
The author of that article also wrote a book called The Perils of "Privilege": Why Injustice Can't Be Solved by Accusing Others of Advantage. So there's that.

 

[Goldboy]

Antisemitism is definitely more common than people seem to think. My dad, despite being a normally reasonable person, went through an antisemitic phase years ago where he blamed all Jewish people for the actions of Israel, also giving the usual "they control the banks!" reasoning. The sudden hostility towards Jewish folks was brought out of him by alt-right propaganda he'd seen on the internet, slowly turning his dislike for Israel as a government into a dislike of Jews as a people.

 

[Kthulhu]

That was a really good plan, because they're still fooling people today.

Spoiler

I realize that a lot of people who argue that the Nazis were leftists are being disingenuous.

You'd be surprised how many people on the right actually believe that the Nazis were socialists (obviously they aren't neo-nazis).

Absolutely not. It can be though, when you use specific language, vitriol and double standards. This forum is very good at understanding complexity when it wants to ("not all Muslims are terrorists", which is clearly true) but is very happy to lump all Israelis together, use frankly disgusting toxic language at every opportunity, ignore the fact that Israeli policy towards the Palestinians has actually shifted back and forth like in every society, mention anti-Semitic tropes ("Jewish lobby") and make constant comparisons to the Holocaust whenever Israel does something wrong.
Imagine if everytime a black person or African country does anything bad everyone would chip in with "this is what the bastards do after slavery". That would be incredibly racist, and that is exactly what happens every single time here with the Nazi comparisons.

There is a literal Jewish special interest group in the US that lobbies the federal government.

 

[rudger]

I don't think there is a blind spot at all, people are not focusing on anti semitism in the context of Charlottesville because the primary issue stemmed from African American racism and the statues. The relevance of anti semitism to Naziism is also extremely well documented and something every person in the Western world is educated about. There is no interesting insight in focusing on the Neo-Nazis being anti Semitic, it is a "no shit" sort of commentary

I'd also put forward that while anti semitism is a massive issue in other countries, it doesn't seem nearly as prevalent in the US and Jews certainly aren't dealing with the level of systemic and embedded discrimination that African Americans and LGBTQ communities are on a daily basis. Recognise it exists, yes, but it doesn't have to be the forefront of discussion when there are bigger issues

There were neo nazis marching down the street chanting "Jews will not replace us". They were also claiming Charlottesville was run by "commie Jews". And literally nobody is claiming Jews have it as bad as blacks or LGBTQ in America. So I'm confused by the purpose of your post other than to unintentionally validate the entire premise of the article.

 

[Cromat]

There is a literal Jewish special interest group in the US that lobbies the federal government.

And there are comparable groups for Arabs, Greeks, Turks etc.

 

[kittoo]

Which atheists hate jews?

Any communist? USSR didnt treat Jews well.
Here in India the communists hate Israel to the core but then again I dont know if its only Israel or Jews in general.

I've never heard of Hindu Indians hating Jews, all the ones I've ever talked to (grew up next door to an indian family, I'd go to their temple with them once in a while for the amazing free food) always loved Jews and identified a lot with their work ethics, morals, etc. I visited India twice and learned about Jewish communities that have lived there a long, long time in peace with the locals.

I think you may be thinking of Muslim Indians, who compromise around 20% of the country, and Islam and Judaism has always had a ... strained relationship due to Israel, Palestine, etc.

I could be wrong of course and any Indians in India are welcome to correct me.
.

No Hindu Indians love Israel/Jews more or less. Makes sense since Hindus and Muslims also have a 'strained' relation as you put. Its mostly either Muslim Indians or leftists/atheists here who dont like Jews/Israel.

 

[Jag]

There is a literal Jewish special interest group in the US that lobbies the federal government.

Your point? There are lobby groups for everything. Race, religion, gender, companies, industries, etc.

Maybe this is easier to understand:

You can be Jewish and support Israel while disagreeing with the government.

You can be American and support America while disagreeing with the government.

 

[Trojita]

But the article isn't arguing that antisemitism exists on the left? It is only saying that the left can have a blind spot for it, and the article is an example of that as the Jezebel author only recognized the racism of the Charlottesville Nazi's and used that limited scope to criticize the Jewish author who was responding to the antisemitism of the Charlottesville Nazi's. The OP article is just saying that both the racism and the antisemitism existed but that the Left can tend to focus in on the racism and downplay or ignore the antisemitism, which resulted in the criticizing of a Jewish woman for taking issue with Nazi's, a stance that I think most can agree is justified.

But Dana herself only mentioned racism as well.