encephalon
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I know, I know.
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The Legend of Heroes: Sen no Kiseki |OT| The Empire Strikes Back
- Thread starter RyougaSaotome
- Start date
I know, I know.
RyougaSaotome
Member
encephalon
Member
巨いなる影の領地！？
Guys ... Guys ...
Guys.
RyougaSaotome
Member
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHA.
Watching you finish this game fills me with untold amounts of joy.
encephalon
Member
何の至宝の影でしょうか。
Edit: There's like no pressure to my R button at all anymore. And it's not as sensitive as my L button. I think I'm going to have to be without a Vita for a while after this game. : (
RyougaSaotome
Member
noooooooooooooooooooo
encephalon
Member
Maybe I'll pass the time with something else I acquired? (I have no idea what ver. this is ported from ... I'm guessing something a little more primitive than the PC Engine ver. Falcom can't be bothered to upload to PSN).
Edit: Oh my god the green text summaries date back to the very beginning!
Political intrigue! Hahahaha ...
Sen no Kiseki Final Ch.:
Edit per
completing the old school innermost dungeon boss
I mistook this for the final boss ... I'm going to have to go back and beat it again without using so many heavy CP restorative items. I used all of them up. : (
More:
Doushi C is ... Crow!? Lol, okay. How silly.
But yes! Here they are folks! And it's happening!　Some of this is so totally Front Mission.
But yes! Here they are folks! And it's happening!　Some of this is so totally Front Mission.
WHAT ... THAT'S THE CREDIT ROLL?
Ahahahahahaahaha ... Oh ... my god ... And the ending song ... WHAAAAAAAAAAT.
...
まるで途中半端じゃない、これ！？　Can this even really be called a "cliff-hanger?" I'm not even sure how I feel about this.
encephalon
Member
It's been a while and since this thread hasn't had activity for a while, I thought it might be okay to double post. I'm just going to spoiler everything, so ... be warned. Anything goes here.
So, I liked the game and it was well worth it, but ... it's also probably the weakest Kiseki title yet.
Things to think about (I've probably already forgotten some things by now, unfortunately):
---
In other news, I'm not sure if anyone here is interested, but I've found a way to purchase Falcom's old PC games via digital download from overseas via Vector. If anyone is interested in the Gagharv trilogy like me, but have noticed that the original PC versions seem to be the best available, I'm willing to post instructions on how to get the digital download to go through. I bought the 97 remake of the first game (because I wasn't satisfied with my Saturn ver), and it worked out mostly okay (despite weird quirks like text in the intro movie not appearing unless I adjust my volume).
I did enjoy Sen no Kiseki. I was surprised/excited by the decision to move to 3D, and despite mixed results, it looks like it was the correct choice. The school setting also worked in one sense; the Kiseki games have such a structural flow to them, that it turned out to be a natural fit. And although the school theme ran the incredible risk of Class VII seeming out of place in the world, as soon as I voiced concerned over Bracer redundancy, Falcom answered my question with the decline of the Bracer guild in the Empire and the need for class VII to come in and fill that gap. I really liked how this was handled and it was one of the more interesting elements in the game. Like most of the interesting stuff in Sen, it probably won't come into full play until the next game.
However not everything worked out great. I wasn't particularly impressed with the cast of characters this time and the conflicts that arise between them feel somewhat strained, leaving me to feel like they were mostly a waste of time. And Sen seems to love the put-two-charcters-together-who-don't-want-to-be-together plot point. I originally thought Alisa would be the worst possible character based on the character design, it turned out she was one of the better character's in the game when it wasn't going for the "i-it's not like I like you or anything!" type character (I'm out of the loop here, so I don't know the term). Truly, the worst character in the game was Miriam. What a nightmare. Her costume design really creeps me out. I found Emma to be the most intriguing character (partly because Sen goes out of its way to make her role in the game mysterious), and by the end of Sen it really feels like Rean & Co. are just taking part in Emma's adventure. And I kind of like it. Can we go back to an official female main again next time, Falcom?
The other problem with Sen is that it doesn't really feel like a cohesive adventure in the same sense that Sora FC and Zero did. You could call the decision to not follow the FC formula a "choice," but even if it was, did it work? The ending is awkward, a mix of priorities (robots and school festival), and ends with Rean yelling "waaaaaaaait, I wasn't finished" just like the game (yes, I'm taking liberties here). I imagine that in some planned ver. of the game the robots/civil war element would have played out a little longer considering it seems to be -the- concept for the game but failed to permeate beyond the very end of Sen. The FC formula works because it hints at forces working on the background throughout the game and then has them culminate together with a satisfying climax. Now that I think about it, Sen no Kiseki is like ending FC as soon as the coup d'etat event begins. They're very similar to begin with. Sen did throw out hints here and there and a lot of it was interesting in the broader context of the series (exciting, even), but as its own adventure it's going to be entirely dependent on the next game to fulfill the build up, which imo, was not handled as well as previous games nor was the sense of mystery.
However not everything worked out great. I wasn't particularly impressed with the cast of characters this time and the conflicts that arise between them feel somewhat strained, leaving me to feel like they were mostly a waste of time. And Sen seems to love the put-two-charcters-together-who-don't-want-to-be-together plot point. I originally thought Alisa would be the worst possible character based on the character design, it turned out she was one of the better character's in the game when it wasn't going for the "i-it's not like I like you or anything!" type character (I'm out of the loop here, so I don't know the term). Truly, the worst character in the game was Miriam. What a nightmare. Her costume design really creeps me out. I found Emma to be the most intriguing character (partly because Sen goes out of its way to make her role in the game mysterious), and by the end of Sen it really feels like Rean & Co. are just taking part in Emma's adventure. And I kind of like it. Can we go back to an official female main again next time, Falcom?
The other problem with Sen is that it doesn't really feel like a cohesive adventure in the same sense that Sora FC and Zero did. You could call the decision to not follow the FC formula a "choice," but even if it was, did it work? The ending is awkward, a mix of priorities (robots and school festival), and ends with Rean yelling "waaaaaaaait, I wasn't finished" just like the game (yes, I'm taking liberties here). I imagine that in some planned ver. of the game the robots/civil war element would have played out a little longer considering it seems to be -the- concept for the game but failed to permeate beyond the very end of Sen. The FC formula works because it hints at forces working on the background throughout the game and then has them culminate together with a satisfying climax. Now that I think about it, Sen no Kiseki is like ending FC as soon as the coup d'etat event begins. They're very similar to begin with. Sen did throw out hints here and there and a lot of it was interesting in the broader context of the series (exciting, even), but as its own adventure it's going to be entirely dependent on the next game to fulfill the build up, which imo, was not handled as well as previous games nor was the sense of mystery.
So, I liked the game and it was well worth it, but ... it's also probably the weakest Kiseki title yet.
Things to think about (I've probably already forgotten some things by now, unfortunately):
- Is the shadow world part of a system associated with one of Eidos' treasures?
- Crossbell wasn't a fool's errand after all? Vita/Misty/Whatever seems to imply that something was accomplished with the "bells" of Crossbell.
- The next game may seem like the stage for Falcom to reveal Ouroboros' grand plan, but then again, it honestly seems like we could go through a 3 part arc this time around.
- "Do you seek power" or whatever is asked by Valmar seems like a pretty direct reference to a certain -other- game, especially given the context.
- The game isn't implying that we're in a time loop where the cannons went off is it? Following the Zero setup was weird this time.
- I'm probably forgetting important intriguing stuff to talk about here. : (
- Crossbell wasn't a fool's errand after all? Vita/Misty/Whatever seems to imply that something was accomplished with the "bells" of Crossbell.
- The next game may seem like the stage for Falcom to reveal Ouroboros' grand plan, but then again, it honestly seems like we could go through a 3 part arc this time around.
- "Do you seek power" or whatever is asked by Valmar seems like a pretty direct reference to a certain -other- game, especially given the context.
- The game isn't implying that we're in a time loop where the cannons went off is it? Following the Zero setup was weird this time.
- I'm probably forgetting important intriguing stuff to talk about here. : (
---
In other news, I'm not sure if anyone here is interested, but I've found a way to purchase Falcom's old PC games via digital download from overseas via Vector. If anyone is interested in the Gagharv trilogy like me, but have noticed that the original PC versions seem to be the best available, I'm willing to post instructions on how to get the digital download to go through. I bought the 97 remake of the first game (because I wasn't satisfied with my Saturn ver), and it worked out mostly okay (despite weird quirks like text in the intro movie not appearing unless I adjust my volume).
Shouta
Member
I thought the game was quite excellent, honestly. It certainly lacks the story climax like FC or Zero but it does far better at world-building than either game, IMO. It also gives a lot of time to all of its characters which is impressive because it out just plain outnumbers FC and Zero in that area. I was also quite happy with most of the characters as well. Miriam is the only one that's kinda of lacking but I suspect she'll be getting more time in the next game.
It's a far more complex situation than the previous games so taking the time and working it up is fine with me.
It's a far more complex situation than the previous games so taking the time and working it up is fine with me.
encephalon
Member
Even in the context of setting things up for a longer story, it could have been handled better. I don't think it's particularly disastrous or anything, but I just think it could be better. Regardless of any of my criticisms, Falcom did a lot of interesting things with Sen and it's not a standalone title. The next one is likely to be amazing (especially given that it will probably be the stage for
Olivert and Osborne's face off
Getting more time isn't exactly what I want out of Miriam. I just wish she had been designed as a different type of character.
Random: Does the ending theme not sound like a 90s song?
RyougaSaotome
Member
My biggest narrative issue with Sen is mostly just the way it doesn't have a black and white/easy to identify main narrative thread. It's mostly just a series of things that happen, which I ended up not having a huge problem with to be honest. There's a lot of very necessary world building that had to happen (very little Erebonia knowledge/the size of the damn country), and I came out of the game feeling like I had a really strong grip on this huge country we'd been hearing about for five games.
As for the cast, I was pretty skeptical at first, but by the end I was glad they went with students at an academy, and I was impressed by how well the cast was handled compared to another game with a huge cast: Type-0. The latter really suffered in terms of character development, whereas I definitely grew attached to Class VII by the end of Sen.
I dunno where I'd rank it in the series (that's not an easy thing to do), but I enjoyed the gameplay a whoooooooooole lot. While the game has a ton of technical issues, I had a blast with the battle system and the move to full 3D.
Also I really love this game as a counterpart to Zero/Mostly Ao. I've been playing Zero Evo on and off, and it's so cool to see how these two games bounce off each other in weird ways, even through character relations.
Definitely. It also feels more like an opening.
"NOW THE REAL EREBONIA ARC BEGINS. *HIGH TEMPO THEME*"
Really dig it though. Thank goodness for Youtube.
As for the cast, I was pretty skeptical at first, but by the end I was glad they went with students at an academy, and I was impressed by how well the cast was handled compared to another game with a huge cast: Type-0. The latter really suffered in terms of character development, whereas I definitely grew attached to Class VII by the end of Sen.
I dunno where I'd rank it in the series (that's not an easy thing to do), but I enjoyed the gameplay a whoooooooooole lot. While the game has a ton of technical issues, I had a blast with the battle system and the move to full 3D.
Also I really love this game as a counterpart to Zero/Mostly Ao. I've been playing Zero Evo on and off, and it's so cool to see how these two games bounce off each other in weird ways, even through character relations.
Definitely. It also feels more like an opening.
"NOW THE REAL EREBONIA ARC BEGINS. *HIGH TEMPO THEME*"
Really dig it though. Thank goodness for Youtube.
*cracks knuckles* If we're going to comment on the downsides of Sen, I've got a couple of big complaints and a few smaller ones that really don't warrant mentioning. Not compared to my big ones.
Don't get me wrong, I loved the game and the narrative (the whole anticipation-based narrative is the best thing, I think- and probably done way better than I've seen it done in other titles), but there are things that actually did not let it top 3rd or Ao as my favorite Kiseki titles.
My biggest complaint was the hand holding. Dear god. That was ridiculous. To even mark the next locations of the Bleu Blanc quests on the map? Seriously? I think that defeated the purpose of the quest, really. The answers were also easy enough that you didn't NEED the marks anyway. I'd like less marks for some of the quests in the future.
The other complaint that will probably get me more wordy, that actually made me really frustrated at points: the simplified orbment system. In simplifying the system, in my opinion, they removed the need for spellcasters. There was no way to make them properly useful in dungeons because they couldn't cover the bases. You set them up one way, and you'd get a divide of monsters over various elements- there's no way to cover all the ground necessary with the new orbment system.
I feel like it was broken, and leaning towards physical fighters. To me, I believe I was wasting Emma's ATS by making her a dedicated healer, since healing arts are now based on ATS as well. So Emma and Elliot were better off being set up to heal the party instead of being offensive casters.
I think it was neat, but I think it was a huge step back from the orbment system in Ao no Kiseki, personally. I can understand the need to cut back with it, but I think they neutered it way too much.
Don't get me wrong, I loved the game and the narrative (the whole anticipation-based narrative is the best thing, I think- and probably done way better than I've seen it done in other titles), but there are things that actually did not let it top 3rd or Ao as my favorite Kiseki titles.
My biggest complaint was the hand holding. Dear god. That was ridiculous. To even mark the next locations of the Bleu Blanc quests on the map? Seriously? I think that defeated the purpose of the quest, really. The answers were also easy enough that you didn't NEED the marks anyway. I'd like less marks for some of the quests in the future.
The other complaint that will probably get me more wordy, that actually made me really frustrated at points: the simplified orbment system. In simplifying the system, in my opinion, they removed the need for spellcasters. There was no way to make them properly useful in dungeons because they couldn't cover the bases. You set them up one way, and you'd get a divide of monsters over various elements- there's no way to cover all the ground necessary with the new orbment system.
I feel like it was broken, and leaning towards physical fighters. To me, I believe I was wasting Emma's ATS by making her a dedicated healer, since healing arts are now based on ATS as well. So Emma and Elliot were better off being set up to heal the party instead of being offensive casters.
I think it was neat, but I think it was a huge step back from the orbment system in Ao no Kiseki, personally. I can understand the need to cut back with it, but I think they neutered it way too much.
Shouta
Member
I don't mind the orbments that much but it is very plain. They had a quartz scheme setup that didn't provide anything particularly interesting like cross-element setups or comprehensive ones a bit earlier. They remove the need to be concerned with lines in Orbments as well despite keeping them. I did dig the new powered version of quartz that gave stats though.I can't say I really want the old system back because they used it for 5 games prior to Sen so it really needs a revamping. If it's improved off this base, that'd be great start.
That said, I found casting quite useful, at least until I got Megalith level 4, lol. The damage-boosting for ATS seemed a bit borked though. You seemed to get way more punch from STR boosts in your attacks even if your STR and ATS were at comparable levels.
That said, I found casting quite useful, at least until I got Megalith level 4, lol. The damage-boosting for ATS seemed a bit borked though. You seemed to get way more punch from STR boosts in your attacks even if your STR and ATS were at comparable levels.
Don't get me wrong, I do like the idea they started with, but I think the orbment system had parts of it that seemed pointless as they were. The lines only restricted some types of quartz, but not all. The lines were a good restriction from before, I think, but now they felt... kind of pointless, really. Why were they even still there, you know?
Most of my breaking the orbment system was related to setting up characters for support for the most part. Why would I bother setting up multiple characters to cast elements when some of them were still completely useless with orbal arts? (Laura, I'm looking at you. --nevermind the fact that if you ever have Laura using arts outside of the one off recovery spell here or there, you're doing it wrong. xD)
I do think I'm a little eager with the next game because I'd really like to see them BUILD on the current system they've setup. I mean, I'll reiterate, Emma's ATS was immense, and it felt like a waste to me to have someone so high powered for arts not be useful at all for spellcasting. She was one of my favorite characters, but I never used her unless I absolutely had to- she was wasted space in my party, since Elliot was a far better at healing than her because of his crafts.
Most of my breaking the orbment system was related to setting up characters for support for the most part. Why would I bother setting up multiple characters to cast elements when some of them were still completely useless with orbal arts? (Laura, I'm looking at you. --nevermind the fact that if you ever have Laura using arts outside of the one off recovery spell here or there, you're doing it wrong. xD)
I do think I'm a little eager with the next game because I'd really like to see them BUILD on the current system they've setup. I mean, I'll reiterate, Emma's ATS was immense, and it felt like a waste to me to have someone so high powered for arts not be useful at all for spellcasting. She was one of my favorite characters, but I never used her unless I absolutely had to- she was wasted space in my party, since Elliot was a far better at healing than her because of his crafts.
Shouta
Member
I dunno. I used Emma a lot in the game, maybe even more so than Eliot but I focused her mostly on attacking as it just makes more sense considering her ATS. I used her as a healer at times too because of it but I almost always just equipped the Kanon master quartz as well which meant it didn't matter who was healing, lol.
I actually had Laura and Fie do the the Space magic that sucked the enemies into the center as they were built to be the fastest in my parties. I'd have Emma or whoever was my attack magic person clean up from there. That was my clearing strat, at least until I got megalith, lol.
I actually had Laura and Fie do the the Space magic that sucked the enemies into the center as they were built to be the fastest in my parties. I'd have Emma or whoever was my attack magic person clean up from there. That was my clearing strat, at least until I got megalith, lol.
I'm posting this here because I have a feeling if I made a Sora no Kiseki SC lttp thread there would be zero replies and all the active Kiseki players are here.
Sora no Kiseki SC
I'm just going to spoiler tag the whole thing in case there are people here who never played SC:
Sora no Kiseki SC
I'm just going to spoiler tag the whole thing in case there are people here who never played SC:
So I'm in chapter 3 of SC now, about 22 hours in and while I'm enjoying it, the pacing in this game sucks. Like really, really sucks. If this was the first game in the series I'd be fine with how long it's taking for ANYTHING to happen as for what the game is "a slice of life series", it's done well enough. There's lots of nice little character development and world development through the main quest and the sidequests. BUT THERE'S NO PLOT. And FC already did the job of slowly filling out the worldview + character development at a slow slow pace already. I pushed through FC understanding it was setting up everything. So I really didn't expect SC to start from scratch again in pacing.
Not only that, but I'm 3 chapters + a prologue in, 20+ hours in to what is considered the FINAL CHAPTER for this story (since 3rd is just bonus character development and stuff from what I hear and the main story is FC + SC) and the game thinks it can still be this ultra relaxed slow leisurely pace where I can keep spending 20-30 mins running all over places looking for Ren (TWICE no less, once in the garden palace place hide and go seek and then later in the chapter following her "hints" around the main grand city). Add in the phantom thief sidequests where you're running from one spot to another and some monster sidequests in the sewers and then a main quest where you're simply "investigating the death threats" by going from one embassy to another embassy to the palace to the newspaper and talking and finding out pretty much zero...this chapter has just been a huge busywork/footwork chapter with like NOTHING HAPPENING and yet this is getting toward the middle of the game which is the BIG FINALE STORY and it...doesn't feel like it at all.
I dunno, I heard so many good things about SC and with how FC ramped up in the last half and then ended on a great cliffhanger...I was expecting the game to actually have started by 20+ hours in! It's a good game otherwise, but it's ridiculously slow. I mean the chapter before this (chapter 2) was like "go place these earthquake markers at these 4 spots"; why does it feel like most of the stuff you do in FC and SC so far is just the developers giving you busywork/footwork to pad out the game length? I can't think of any other rpg series that are as slow based. The game franchise reminds me of Suikoden with it's great worldview, but Suikoden moved along on an adventure from one place to another! This is just running back and forth around town and the surrounding area as each chapter is confined to just one city (which you already did this confined thing 1 city per chapter with FC!; deja vu wtf)
Please tell me since I'm getting near the halfway that the story is going to kick into gear soon and be awesome for the rest of the game?
Also are The 3rd, Zero no Kiseki, Ao no Kisek, and Sen no Kiseki faster paced games? I'd like to catch up on the series but I can't sit through more games where it takes 20+ hours before anything actually happens in the plot and there's any sense of engagement.
Not only that, but I'm 3 chapters + a prologue in, 20+ hours in to what is considered the FINAL CHAPTER for this story (since 3rd is just bonus character development and stuff from what I hear and the main story is FC + SC) and the game thinks it can still be this ultra relaxed slow leisurely pace where I can keep spending 20-30 mins running all over places looking for Ren (TWICE no less, once in the garden palace place hide and go seek and then later in the chapter following her "hints" around the main grand city). Add in the phantom thief sidequests where you're running from one spot to another and some monster sidequests in the sewers and then a main quest where you're simply "investigating the death threats" by going from one embassy to another embassy to the palace to the newspaper and talking and finding out pretty much zero...this chapter has just been a huge busywork/footwork chapter with like NOTHING HAPPENING and yet this is getting toward the middle of the game which is the BIG FINALE STORY and it...doesn't feel like it at all.
I dunno, I heard so many good things about SC and with how FC ramped up in the last half and then ended on a great cliffhanger...I was expecting the game to actually have started by 20+ hours in! It's a good game otherwise, but it's ridiculously slow. I mean the chapter before this (chapter 2) was like "go place these earthquake markers at these 4 spots"; why does it feel like most of the stuff you do in FC and SC so far is just the developers giving you busywork/footwork to pad out the game length? I can't think of any other rpg series that are as slow based. The game franchise reminds me of Suikoden with it's great worldview, but Suikoden moved along on an adventure from one place to another! This is just running back and forth around town and the surrounding area as each chapter is confined to just one city (which you already did this confined thing 1 city per chapter with FC!; deja vu wtf)
Please tell me since I'm getting near the halfway that the story is going to kick into gear soon and be awesome for the rest of the game?
Also are The 3rd, Zero no Kiseki, Ao no Kisek, and Sen no Kiseki faster paced games? I'd like to catch up on the series but I can't sit through more games where it takes 20+ hours before anything actually happens in the plot and there's any sense of engagement.
UberTag
Member
Quick question for you Kiseki enthusiasts.
In the event that I should want to venture out into the brave unknown upon the release of Trails in the Sky SC (Sora no Kiseki SC) HOPEFULLY in 2014, am I correct in terms of this title timeline?
Sora no Kiseki -> Sora no Kiseki SC -> Sora no Kiseki The 3rd
And then the series splits into concurrent storylines with the Crossbell Arc duology with Zero no Kiseki (Trails of Zero) and Ao no Kiseki (Trails of Azure).
And finally, there's Sen no Kiseki (Trails of Flash) which also takes place at the same time as the previous two games.
I'm entertaining the idea of just reading up on the events of The 3rd and then playing through import copies of all 3 of the subsequent games on Vita using a translation once both Ao no Kiseki: Evolution and XSEED's translated Trails in the Sky SC release have both come out.
Would this be a good approach to take or would you recommend something different?
In the event that I should want to venture out into the brave unknown upon the release of Trails in the Sky SC (Sora no Kiseki SC) HOPEFULLY in 2014, am I correct in terms of this title timeline?
Sora no Kiseki -> Sora no Kiseki SC -> Sora no Kiseki The 3rd
And then the series splits into concurrent storylines with the Crossbell Arc duology with Zero no Kiseki (Trails of Zero) and Ao no Kiseki (Trails of Azure).
And finally, there's Sen no Kiseki (Trails of Flash) which also takes place at the same time as the previous two games.
I'm entertaining the idea of just reading up on the events of The 3rd and then playing through import copies of all 3 of the subsequent games on Vita using a translation once both Ao no Kiseki: Evolution and XSEED's translated Trails in the Sky SC release have both come out.
Would this be a good approach to take or would you recommend something different?
Shouta
Member
If I remember correctly, Ch. 3 in Sora SC is where it really starts as that's the chapter with the "Tea Party." That's where everything really starts up.
I would say that Zero/Ao are much better about picking up right away but still maintaining character development and all the goodness of a Kiseki game. Each chapter is really packed with stuff and has its own little miniarc to keep you interested/excited.
I would say that Zero/Ao are much better about picking up right away but still maintaining character development and all the goodness of a Kiseki game. Each chapter is really packed with stuff and has its own little miniarc to keep you interested/excited.
Yeah, it's the tea party and right after I posted that I got to the part where the endgame for that chapter begins with Kevin and stuff and now it's moving yay.
Good to hear Zero/Ao are better about that. I mean I love the character/world development in these games, but they can make the main story move a little more!
How is the pacing in 3rd?
Shouta
Member
3rd is basically a dungeon crawler with character development and a little story to expand the world a bit. It was released around or before Persona 3 so it has pretty similar structuring, lol.
It's a game that doesn't need to be played except for one character's story. If you see that, you're ready for Zero/Ao/Sen. It does add a lot especially to the other chars and does a bit of foreshadowing to things but at this point, most of it isn't directly required for the games that follow it. And tbh, I think that one char's story works without it too as long as you've played SC. It gives it a bit more weight, of course, but you get the idea behind what happened for the most part even without it.
I'm sure someone will come in and disagree.
encephalon
Member
I think when people are real fans of games like the Kiseki games it's easy for them to get stuck in this idea that everyone who has played the game has to absolutely have the complete experience and they don't want them to miss out on any hints, allusions to other games, etc. I kind of feel XSEED approached the series with this attitude and although I'm glad I played 3rd and would love for western fans of the game to play 3rd, if skipping straight to Zero would mean fans being more likely to get Zero/Ao I would rather they skip it. It shouldn't be all or nothing.
Thankfully Falcom didn't repeat the same mistakes as SC with Ao, although they did make new ones. SC caught me off guard as well and in the end I wasn't sure if FC Ending/SC premise:
was earned.
Thankfully Falcom didn't repeat the same mistakes as SC with Ao, although they did make new ones. SC caught me off guard as well and in the end I wasn't sure if FC Ending/SC premise:
the separate of Joshua and Estelle
RyougaSaotome
Member
I don't disagree, but the idea of skipping 3rd makes me very sad as I think it's my favorite single game in the entire series.
From both a gameplay and a story perspective.
Also since this thread has died down, the Community Thread will be going up soon. I'll link to it when it's up.
From both a gameplay and a story perspective.
Also since this thread has died down, the Community Thread will be going up soon. I'll link to it when it's up.
Well, I love dungeon crawlers like Grandia Xtreme and P3/P4 so I actually think I'll enjoy 3rd a lot. Especially as a I feel like SC barely has any combat at all and is basically a visual novel with boss battles sprinkled through out, which is a bit of a shame since I do like the battle system!
The primary problem with the "third is unimportant!" mentality that everyone takes is that only one of the plot threads has fully panned out. What happens if 3rd is skipped and the next game of Sen absolutely requires it? The worst part is that it's most definitely an easier localization job than the other games. I know for a fact that the most difficult part of working on the scripts for FC and SC (and most likely the others) is the unending amount of NPC dialogue... whereas this has little of it.
...especially seeing all the small references back to it in the game. Seeing the ground after that chapter end fight for chapter four broke me. Completely. And it's something only from 3rd. And not from a memory door even- from 3rd's main story.
3rd spoilers:
There is so much that happens in that game that we just don't understand yet that we can't say any of it is unimportant. Not yet. I mean. It's like while the setting is wildly different, claiming that one of the Modesitt books is unimportant to the whole of the Saga of Recluse series, just because it doesn't include the main character of the first book or continue his story, yet the backstory it provides is crucial to ensuring a particular viewpoint from the reader. ...and as much as some people would love to be psychic, we aren't. So we can't predict the future games regarding this series. Falcom had a reason for putting 3rd where they did, afterall. Kondo's said that they actually stopped development on Zero no Kiseki to step back and make 3rd, as they couldn't release Zero without specific information. So something in their overall scenario made them stop the development of an entire game to put 3rd's story out there. (And we've already learned that what we think is the main focus of attention may not be what we should be watching out for.)
I will be stubborn and dig my heels in on my stance, because I'm firmly of the opinion that when you localize your job is to convey the original author's intent. Breaking the order or flat out skipping a game of a continuous story is definitely not conveying the original team's intent. Period. This is more than 3rd being my personal favorite. It's the fact that we can't tell its scale of importance yet, and to skip it for localization is a stupid mistake, because if it DOES become more important than it is now, what then? Especially if localization efforts are between Zero and Ao? Step back and release 3rd in the middle of the two? It makes no sense to do that, nor does it make sense to do so after Ao, given the stuff that happens in that game too.
...especially seeing all the small references back to it in the game. Seeing the ground after that chapter end fight for chapter four broke me. Completely. And it's something only from 3rd. And not from a memory door even- from 3rd's main story.
3rd spoilers:
Or if something comes in regarding the Salt Paling? What about Richard in Ored? Or the work that Zin is dealing with? We already see Kilika come back (and she is in a completely different position now) after that door but Zin?
There is so much that happens in that game that we just don't understand yet that we can't say any of it is unimportant. Not yet. I mean. It's like while the setting is wildly different, claiming that one of the Modesitt books is unimportant to the whole of the Saga of Recluse series, just because it doesn't include the main character of the first book or continue his story, yet the backstory it provides is crucial to ensuring a particular viewpoint from the reader. ...and as much as some people would love to be psychic, we aren't. So we can't predict the future games regarding this series. Falcom had a reason for putting 3rd where they did, afterall. Kondo's said that they actually stopped development on Zero no Kiseki to step back and make 3rd, as they couldn't release Zero without specific information. So something in their overall scenario made them stop the development of an entire game to put 3rd's story out there. (And we've already learned that what we think is the main focus of attention may not be what we should be watching out for.)
I will be stubborn and dig my heels in on my stance, because I'm firmly of the opinion that when you localize your job is to convey the original author's intent. Breaking the order or flat out skipping a game of a continuous story is definitely not conveying the original team's intent. Period. This is more than 3rd being my personal favorite. It's the fact that we can't tell its scale of importance yet, and to skip it for localization is a stupid mistake, because if it DOES become more important than it is now, what then? Especially if localization efforts are between Zero and Ao? Step back and release 3rd in the middle of the two? It makes no sense to do that, nor does it make sense to do so after Ao, given the stuff that happens in that game too.
SpaceDrake
Member
Lemme just chip in here and say this: if I was the sole lord-overgod of the entire Trails loc effort, I would consider prioritizing Zero over Sky 3rd, if only for the sake of trying to shorten the release gap window and get English readers somewhat more caught up on current events...
... but skipping a game, especially in a series that sells well enough to justify bringing over in the first place? Ridiculous. There's no reason to skip any of the games. If they sell well enough to localize, they sell well enough to localize.
At least as far as I'm concerned, if SC sells well enough to turn the franchise into a going concern outside of Japan, skipping 3rd isn't in the cards. There may be some talk of prioritization, but skipping? Absolutely not.
... but skipping a game, especially in a series that sells well enough to justify bringing over in the first place? Ridiculous. There's no reason to skip any of the games. If they sell well enough to localize, they sell well enough to localize.
At least as far as I'm concerned, if SC sells well enough to turn the franchise into a going concern outside of Japan, skipping 3rd isn't in the cards. There may be some talk of prioritization, but skipping? Absolutely not.
Shouta
Member
And what if nothing pans out? What if the content content ultimately doesn't matter because they tell the story in such a fashion in later games that doesn't require knowledge of a few scenes in the 3rd?
The assumption that every tidbit, every scrap of info is absolutely required is my problem with the "3rd is really important" mentality.
Going on Sen as of right now, there wasn't anything in 3rd that was necessary. The game was written with the fact that players may not be familiar or remember what was introduced in 3rd and so they gave an overview of what was needed like any smart writer would. Even the one plot thread that panned out in Zero had the necessary details when it popped up again, so folks could understand what happened. You miss one dimension of it that's stated directly in the 3rd but that dimension can be gathered and surmised from the events and history presented in Zero.
The 3rd was a connecting game to give fans a taste of what's to come but not necessarily a prerequisite to playing their future titles. It definitely is not the same as FC -> SC or Zero -> Ao. So I think it's perfectly acceptable if someone wants to skip ahead and start enjoying the story that's likely going to be laid out perfectly for anyone to understand.
I decided to start the game over with this patch, since I was still in chapter 1 and my memory of the events up to that point was a little fuzzy anyway. My impression of the game is already dramatically better with the better loading and lack of jerky animation loads. Feels much less low-budget now.
encephalon
Member
FC sold "well enough to localize?"
Unfortunately, we aren't in a position to know whether or not that's true. I don't even know how much Tom or Andrew get as internal people involved in the project.
I'm sure that if we knew, we'd know what direction they'd be going with the next game after Sen's cliffhanger and we wouldn't be wigging out as much over it.
There's no way we can predict. That's what I'm saying. Is it worth the risk? I don't think it is, considering the situation with it. Not at all worth the risk
Another problem with this is that there are a LOT of us who enjoy sitting down and discussing what we think will be happening, what's to come, what direction things are going and just plain out discussing the hints we've seen. 3rd is easily the most important for most people doing that. It's a shame that if there are intentions to push forward with the series, to actually deny English speaking fans one of the best parts of being a fan in this series according to the thoughts of a lot of people.
Shouta
Member
No one has talked about localization speaking a game in this thread. We're talking about whether or not one can skip it in Japanese. Specifically, whether or not Bebpo can. So you'll want to chill with the doom and gloom.
If you got a real argument for why it's important Bebpo should play it then go for it. I've laid out why there isn't a big reason to prioritize it right now if he wants to go play with Zero, Ao and then Sen.
I never was responding to Bebpo. I was saying that I was sick of hearing people claiming 3rd as "unimportant" in response to you. Let the players decide on it, because a number of people also enjoy 3rd's story immensely. Saying "just a dungeon crawler" minimizes the impact of the game's story immensely and does it no justice. If he wants to play a game that has a good story, then maybe he shouldn't skip 3rd. It's equally as enjoyable on its own merits. It doesn't NEED to be connected to the others in order to have a good story (because, frankly Kevin's story is a good, bittersweet and poignant story to tell in the first place).
RyougaSaotome
Member
Agreed. If anything, Bebpo should play 3rd as it's refreshing in how snappy it is, pacing wise. Always something interesting going on, especially compared to even Zero, which is also a slower game (less so for folks who can read between the lines of previous games, but still).
I do understand the desire to wanna skip stuff for localizations, but I'll never understand the idea of skipping games if you're playing in Japanese. Seems really silly to me. If you like the series, why not play them all? It's not like you have somebody timing you or some kind of time limit.
The games aren't going anywhere.
Also: The 3rd is the best game in the series. Skipping it would be riiidicuuuuulous.
I do understand the desire to wanna skip stuff for localizations, but I'll never understand the idea of skipping games if you're playing in Japanese. Seems really silly to me. If you like the series, why not play them all? It's not like you have somebody timing you or some kind of time limit.
The games aren't going anywhere.
Also: The 3rd is the best game in the series. Skipping it would be riiidicuuuuulous.
Shouta
Member
But he asked, so address him if you believe in the "let the players" decide stance.
In the fervor that you've worked yourself up into, you've mistaken "not necessary" as "bad game' when there has been no judgement made about the quality of it. I did not once say it was a bad game or not enjoyable. That's YOU putting words on my mouth. I simply stated that it's not necessary to enjoy the latter games. Not necessary and not good are NOT the same thing. If you want to say it's a enjoyable and beneficial game to the experience, then go for it. But if you're going to refute that it's not necessary, then you need to address the points that are brought up instead of going on some tangent.
Because some folks don't have the time to spend playing it all, heh. Ideally, I agree that one should play them all if you can but for folks that want to enjoy the main story of the series, it's one that doesn't have anything that leaves holes in your knowledge base to enjoy what's going on for the moment. So it's something that can be skipped in favor of the bigger picture. Even if something becomes important from it later, it's pretty often summarized for the player because Falcom aren't a bunch of dingbats that would leave their players high and try, lol.
RyougaSaotome
Member
I guess?
I dunno, unless you're in some massive rush to play the games for some reason, skipping just seems pointless to me. If you like the series enough to want to play them, you're already not exactly in a rush. I can see somebody skipping the first trilogy and starting with Zero/Ao then moving backward. But if you already jumped in at FC, why not just follow it to the end?
Any way, that's enough from me on the subject. In conclusion: SHOUTA Y U GOTTA BE SO CRAY. =P
Shouta
Member
There are folks that just want to see the main story advance and aren't necessarily invested in the extra lore or the characters. That would be a pretty valid reason to go ahead. Personal preference and all that. They might be tired of the characters or setting, or their interested in the next setting more, etc. There are any number of reasons really.
RyougaSaotome
Member
Blasphemy.
BLASPHEMY!!!!!11111
OH. BEFORE I FORGET. The Sen no Kiseki ED single, I Miss You, is now available on iTunes. Now you too can listen to it on repeat while waiting a year to find out what happens next. \o/
I think it's pretty amusing that you think I'm that worked up over this. I don't get 'that worked up' on forums because it's silly to do so.
In fact, the whole response seems like you're getting more worked up over it than I've been if you're throwing statements like that around. I already stated my case, and you jumped off of the topic anyway to say that maybe I should be speaking to bebpo. Let him skip it for all I care at this point, I personally think it's his loss if he does.
I'm more frustrated that it's the unimportant statement that you made is partly what makes people brush 3rd off to eventually say that it's a crappy game and that it shouldn't even be bothered with. When people give the sentiment you give, others misinterpret and don't quite pick up on what's being said. In the end, it's propagating a pretty irritating rumor that I actually see quite a bit with running my site- specifically from people who have never played beyond FC telling XSEED to skip 3rd, because it's not important. They are in no position to judge for themselves, rather than parrot exactly what they hear from the 'it's not important!' crowd.
It's more a regular perception that comes from, and just flat out saying something like that. The commentary you had in your post earlier did not show any implication of whether or not you enjoyed it and promptly people who don't know better go on a 'it's crap' assumption and start telling other people to skip 3rd, etc etc. It's just really frustrating, especially when they end up coming to me on twitter to ask me about stuff like that.
Also, skipping the doors makes it possible to finish 3rd in far less time than it does to play any of the other games. You can still get a chance to enjoy its story at the very least, and pick and choose what you want to find out, door wise. It's far easier to devote less time to it than Zero or Ao at the very least.
As Ryouga's said before regarding 3rd: all the feeeels. If people are playing the games for the story, then I don't think anyone would be disappointed in a game that's a bit darker than FC and SC, and
what I think ends up being a fantastic redemption story.
...which then gets a little bit more impact right in the prologue of Ao because of the 'between the lines' stuff that happens. It may not be crucial, but it makes you appreciate characters and a situation a lot more and, once again, has an 'all the feels' moment.
Me being a facetious dingbat: if they want to see just the main story, they should skip Zero while they're at it. It, also, is only support for the main story when you really get down to it. Maybe it sets up characters and settings that happen in Ao, but you can go without them. And you can also get a summary of it at the very beginning. Even if it's a quick and dirty summary.
Shouta
Member
Funny that you say you aren't worked up considering the fact you came in ranting about a topic that's not really even connected to what was being discussed. I was on topic because of the conversation. As for me being worked up, it's because you are.
Sorry to hear that. But, if you want to bust the rumor and make sure it gets localized, then actually discuss it. Everyone here praises the 3rd. I'm the only one that says it's not necessary around here and even then, I comment on just that and not on its quality.
You know of the quality of the game and how much it adds to the lore of the series so keep telling people that because that's a helluva lot more compelling argument than complaining about folks saying a differing opinion on its necessity. If you want to debate that opinion then do so on the basis of the specific arguments presented further to draw an explanation so folks can see what is actually meant by it.
You have access to this forum and the people are willing to discuss it. So rather than sitting idly by while random folks on twitter ask those questions, direct them to parties with that opinion and start a dialogue about it.
As I said above, you can do something about it by involving more parties in the conversation. I'm not going to censor my opinion on it, nor should anyway else. So the thing to do is to draw the discussion out as means to inform people that aren't in the know. This isn't some crusader you have to carry on your shoulders alone.
Even being facetious, the comment doesn't really hold water. There are a lot of reasons for Zero being necessary, especially based on the actual composition of work. =p
The only thing I need to find a comment on was directing people to discuss things. Not all people can become members on Neogaf, due to their own limitations to accounts. Hell, I was denied a membership originally after waiting for almost six months to get it, because of my domain email address. Time Warner doesn't give out ISP emails, and my school shut down my college email. Nevertheless, it took prodding someone who knew a mod that could get my account pushed through. Not everyone knows that.
I end up discussing things on twitter, despite its 140 character limit. However, with that response, it makes me think I should take the discussion elsewhere, so that those people can actually participate in it.
Also, thanks for shutting down what was intended as a thought experiment. Seriously.
I end up discussing things on twitter, despite its 140 character limit. However, with that response, it makes me think I should take the discussion elsewhere, so that those people can actually participate in it.
Also, thanks for shutting down what was intended as a thought experiment. Seriously.
SpaceDrake
Member
I'm talking about potential sales of SC, and whether or not it sells well enough on PC in particular to justify bringing the rest over.
I'm on chapter 4 (the first part) and I'm really liking the game (I got the game 1 month ago and as you can see, I'm taking my time). I've been waiting years for a Kiseki game that takes place in the Erebonian Empire.
About chapter 4:
And this is my first post on NeoGAF.
About chapter 4:
In the old school building, when Rean has the heart attack and his hair turns white and his eyes red, it seems that Crow knows something about Rean's power and I suspect that he's like Rean... That power must be connected to Rean's past, before he was adopted (I still haven't listened the Drama CD).
RyougaSaotome
Member
Hell yeah. Welcome to GAF!
Sora no Kiseki SC talk:
So, another 6 hours, chapter 4 down in Rolent with the fog. Now there's a dragon, but at the same time chapter 5 promises another "experiment" which makes me go "" and feel like the game is going to take another 6 more hours before anything actually happens.
This is the problem with SC. For 30 hours so far, every chapter is:
-Go to region you've been to in FC
-Do a bunch of mundane tasks while investigating some weird occurrence (that as the player you figure out hours before the cast members)
-In the end find out it was an experiment using the Gospel and you fight an AGENT and they say hello and then leave
-Then you do more boring quests
-Then you get on an airplane and head to the next region
-Repeat 4 times for 30 hours so far!
I actually think at this point SC is worse than FC. At least FC was an adventure where every chapter you were exploring a new region, meeting new people, going through new dungeons. Plus the arcs were a little more unique. Every arc being EXPERIMENT -> AGENT INTRO -> NOTHING ACCOMPLISHED/NOTHING LEARNED is a pretty awful formula. Add in almost no new locations so far and quests all being basically re-running through old FC dungeons and world map paths and you would think this is kind of a bad rpg? Yet somehow I'm still enjoying it because I like the characters and the music and the battle system (oh and the battles haven't evolved much at all; mostly the same arts and enemies, and even the new crafts just add a "II" at the end and they look and act the same but are slightly more damaging). But still, SC just seems weakly designed for what's been hyped up as this GREAT EPIC RPG.
Man, when the game actually gets a plot and gets going in a few more hours it better be pretty damn good until the finish to live up to any of this hype.
Also just as an aside I was trying to figure out why the Ouroboros scenes with the agents hanging out at the start of each chapter are boring when they should be gripping exciting teases like in most forms of entertainment when you get to see the MYSTERIOUS BADDY GROUP chatting briefly. And I realized it's because there's no real mystery or lore. Yeah they're doing something towards some plan, ok so what. Falcom hasn't really done a good job making any sort of gripping story filled with lots of hooks. Hopefully they improve on this as the series goes on!
" and feel like the game is going to take another 6 more hours before anything actually happens.This is the problem with SC. For 30 hours so far, every chapter is:
-Go to region you've been to in FC
-Do a bunch of mundane tasks while investigating some weird occurrence (that as the player you figure out hours before the cast members)
-In the end find out it was an experiment using the Gospel and you fight an AGENT and they say hello and then leave
-Then you do more boring quests
-Then you get on an airplane and head to the next region
-Repeat 4 times for 30 hours so far!
I actually think at this point SC is worse than FC. At least FC was an adventure where every chapter you were exploring a new region, meeting new people, going through new dungeons. Plus the arcs were a little more unique. Every arc being EXPERIMENT -> AGENT INTRO -> NOTHING ACCOMPLISHED/NOTHING LEARNED is a pretty awful formula. Add in almost no new locations so far and quests all being basically re-running through old FC dungeons and world map paths and you would think this is kind of a bad rpg? Yet somehow I'm still enjoying it because I like the characters and the music and the battle system (oh and the battles haven't evolved much at all; mostly the same arts and enemies, and even the new crafts just add a "II" at the end and they look and act the same but are slightly more damaging). But still, SC just seems weakly designed for what's been hyped up as this GREAT EPIC RPG.
Man, when the game actually gets a plot and gets going in a few more hours it better be pretty damn good until the finish to live up to any of this hype.
Also just as an aside I was trying to figure out why the Ouroboros scenes with the agents hanging out at the start of each chapter are boring when they should be gripping exciting teases like in most forms of entertainment when you get to see the MYSTERIOUS BADDY GROUP chatting briefly. And I realized it's because there's no real mystery or lore. Yeah they're doing something towards some plan, ok so what. Falcom hasn't really done a good job making any sort of gripping story filled with lots of hooks. Hopefully they improve on this as the series goes on!