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The Legend of Heroes: Trails of Cold Steel |OT| Class Warfare

omgfloofy

Banned
Falcom seems to have a problem with being overly ambitious. Wasn't Sky supposed to be one game that was later split into two? Then they were going to make a sequel in Erebonia but decided it wasn't time yet so went to Crossbell instead? Then decided they needed another Sky game to bridge the gap? And Cold Steel I and II were supposed to be one game as well.

I mean, kudos to them for actually delivering on such ambitious projects, but you'd think they'd plan a little more accurately by now, haha.

I'm pretty sure they have a planned direction on things. Kondo himself has said that they know they're about 60% of the way through the story, and that they can finish it in approx. 6 games, give or take a game or two.

I think in some cases, like the going to Erebonia after Sky, he said that they just felt like doing Crossbell next instead. I think that the Crossbell stuff started, then realized that maybe it would be easier to do something else instead of loading Zero with a TON more exposition for things they didn't realize they needed to put into place for people to understand better... thus making a new game in between the two.

Which probably played out in their favor a bit, too. Because it also meant that Zero and Ao wouldn't be split over consoles. Had they gone through straight to Zero, I bet it would be likely they have released Zero just before getting dropped by Softbank, thus releasing Ao to PSP only.

I think the Softbank issue that happened may have also been a catalyst in changing a few of the games and the way they developed them, on top of everything as well. (There's a lot about that re: Ys Seven and I think it was the big victim of the situation, but that's for another time/thread.)

I think Cold Steel was riddled with a bunch of issues, because not only was Falcom changing the graphics engine they had been using for the series for ten years already, but they hadn't done something to that scale in PhyreEngine before, too. (They had stated that Sony had to help them with Celceta, as an example.) I feel that Cold Steel II improved a LOT on issues they had with it. I'm also pretty sure Falcom's basically accepted that a Kiseki arc will consist of 2 or more games (and thus the approx 6 games means 2~3 more arcs). So I imagine it was more of a matter of finding where to split the story and keep going.

However, when they were working on Cold Steel, they probably didn't realize they would have the issues they had with some of Cold Steel II's content, as Kondo did say it was capacity/performance related. Thus Cold Steel has grown into a third game. Before Cold Steel II came out, Kondo had said that the 'next game' would be in Calvard. Thus the CSIII wasn't exactly 100% in the books quite yet.

I think it's not entirely a planning thing- because you can plan for years in advance, but still run into issues. Or find something that you need to tweak story-wise, or think that something else needs to be added, or heaven forbid re-order some of the reveals of the story. You will see that this even happens with long planned out TV series.

As an example: Carlton Cuse and Damon Lindelof were pretty open on the development, planning, and writing behind Lost during its airing, as an example. They knew how the story would end from the get-go, but started making changes based on the availability of actors and how the viewers reacted to characters. Roles were switched around during planning, and situations were changed because certain things didn't work out well with the audience. That sort of thing.

I imagine that creating a story to the scale of Kiseki is probably not that different. Especially since it seems like a 15-20 year endeavor for the company.
 
I imagine that creating a story to the scale of Kiseki is probably not that different. Especially since it seems like a 15-20 year endeavor for the company.

I'd pay good money* to get an in-depth "The Making of Kiseki" with full exposure of how they envisioned the entire franchise's conceptual and story endeavor in the different periods of the franchise (Sky, Zero, Cold Steel) and how things have changed/remained the same throughout those decades as ideas become more fleshed out and business/development realities affect how they need to get their products out.

Disclaimer* :
About $100 - $120 USD max
 

Erheller

Member
Holy shit that ending. So many reveals.

Osborne almost declares war against Crossbell
Osborne is ded
Crow is C
The Noble Faction invades Heimdallr
Oroborus is pretty openly backing the Noble Faction, since they have shiny mechs and a Glorious-class battleship
S and V are alive, too
Zephyr, Fie's former Jaeger corps, is being employed by the Noble Faction
Misty/Vita Clotilde is the second Anguis
Who is Emma, again? Wait for Cold Steel 2!
Sharon is Enforcer No. IX
Mechs and stuff


Nice to see a little more about Instructor Sara if you dance with her. I guess the companion she was mourning in Chapter 6 was a part of the Jaeger corps she was in.

I'm wondering about the relationship between Oroborus and Chancellor Osborne. It's pretty clear that something fishy's going at the end of SC: the Chancellor orders an invasion of Liberl with specially-prepared steam-powered tanks. These tanks would have taken years to prepare and rely on obsolete technology, making them practically useless in every conceivable situation, except for the one that precipitated after the Liberl Ark appeared.

And yet from what we've seen in Cold Steel, Oroborus has been working mostly with the factions aligned against Osborne. The Imperial Liberation Front gets archaisms, and the Noble Faction gets a Glorious-class battleship. And the mechs that start appearing are most likely from Oroborus, as well - they're based off of ancient designs, have no relation to any modern technology used any nation, and have strong ties with pre-Dark Age societies.

So what's Oroborus doing? During the middle of the game, I suspected that they were trying to play both the Nobles, Reformists, and ILF, but we don't see much that links them to Chancellor Osborne. Did Osborne get dumped after the events of SC?
 

Busaiku

Member
Uhh, am I missing something?
How are the girls' outfits unique?
Fie and Millium have a little hat, but everything else seems the same.
 

Jiraiza

Member
Suikoden will capture the appeal of world building and a political plot.

Grandia will give you the lighthearted adventure of FC/SC.

Lunar and Lunar 2 will give you similar character based stories with a fairly lighthearted plot. Don't play the PSP or GBA version.

Trails is like putting those three series in a blender and making the ultimate JRPG smoothie.

You forgot Persona. On the other hand, it also happens to be the worst ingredient of the smoothie.
 

omgfloofy

Banned
The uniform differences that are being talked about here: this is something that I've seen in schools with uniforms, as students will do what they can to give some of their own individuality to them and so forth, while keeping to the uniform code and all. That's what I feel is going on here, too.
 
Poor principal Vandyck ....

Writing those notices ....
20160116223408.png
And wondering if people even read them...

I've read them .. all of them !! no need for a joke !
 
Holy shit that ending. So many reveals.

black bar spoilers everwhere

This is my speculation of the whole Osborne part of the thing.

[Spoilers for FC,SC and CS]

First off, I highly suspect that due to how
Osborne didn't live up to his end of the bargain at the end of SC ( since Liberl resolved the Orbal Incident without Erebonia getting involved), the relationship between Osborne and Ouroboros soured somewhat.

But that the same time, I suspect that the relationship between Osborne and Ouroboros were never super tight to begin with. It feels to me that it was closer to the relationship between Alan Richards and Ouroboros, where Ouroboros gave very subtle, mild support and it was something that could easily be cut off at any time, after their objectives were met.

This is my suspicion of what the relationship between Osborne and Ouroboros entailed :
- Information
- Millium and Lammy ( not that she belongs to Ouroboros, but Lammy (and Millium's connection with Lammy) is created via Ouroboros tech.

And that whatever support they give their partners are only "sufficient" enough to meet the needs of the Ouroboros agenda. So because whatever master plan Ouroboros has for the Noble Faction requires them to basically be able to steamroll the Imperial Army easily, so they were suppppper generous and gave them the tech to make Glorious 2.0 and Giant Mechas, but with Osborne, all they needed was some wink wink nudge, so they were stingy as hell and only gave him Lammy/Millium tech and some information.
Ultimately, Ouroboros as an organisation seems to support existing agendas (Noble Faction/ILF always intended to kill Osborne ) that ties back to whatever broader agenda they have, and I suspect that Osborne's agenda no longer aligns with Ouroboros's current plans, so he's no longer an asset, but a liability.

Even more so since it's highly likely the weapon that destroyed Garellia Fortress is another Ouroboros-linked McGuffin, and if Osborne wants to wage war against Crossbell, that will presumably affect Ouroboros's plans at Crossbell.
 

CrazyDude

Member
This is my speculation of the whole Osborne part of the thing.

[Spoilers for FC,SC and CS]

First off, I highly suspect that due to how
Osborne didn't live up to his end of the bargain at the end of SC ( since Liberl resolved the Orbal Incident without Erebonia getting involved), the relationship between Osborne and Ouroboros soured somewhat.

But that the same time, I suspect that the relationship between Osborne and Ouroboros were never super tight to begin with. It feels to me that it was closer to the relationship between Alan Richards and Ouroboros, where Ouroboros gave very subtle, mild support and it was something that could easily be cut off at any time, after their objectives were met.

This is my suspicion of what the relationship between Osborne and Ouroboros entailed :
- Information
- Millium and Lammy ( not that she belongs to Ouroboros, but Lammy (and Millium's connection with Lammy) is created via Ouroboros tech.

Ultimately, Ouroboros as an organisation seems to support existing agendas (Noble Faction/ILF always intended to kill Osborne ) that ties back to whatever broader agenda they have, and I suspect that Osborne's agenda no longer aligns with Ouroboros's current plans, so he's no longer an asset, but a liability.

Even more so since it's highly likely the weapon that destroyed Garellia Fortress is another Ouroboros-linked McGuffin, and if Osborne wants to wage war against Crossbell, that will presumably affect Ouroboros's plans at Crossbell.

I suspect that Osborne is still alive and the whole assassination thing was something he and Ouroboros came up with. I think the noble faction and the liberation front are being used by Ouroboros and that they were never told about Osborne's relationship with Ouroboros. Osborne's death was never outright confirmed and they never explained why Rean's chest hurt everytime he saw Osborne.
 

Eusis

Member
That's an exaggeration. You're making the series sound like some grimdark story they really aren't. The tone of the Suikoden games isn't really quite that dark. It's not really that far from SC.
I think what's more apt is that Trails (in the Sky anyway) is like Lunar or Grandia but with Suikoden as its backstory. The 3 month war(?) and the circumstances surrounding it comes off as straight up Suikoden, but here it sets the stage for the present which is much lighter overall, even when things get serious.
 
I suspect that Osborne is still alive and the whole assassination thing was something he and Ouroboros came up with. I think the noble faction and the liberation front are being used by Ouroboros and that they were never told about Osborne's relationship with Ouroboros. Osborne's death was never outright confirmed and they never explained why Rean's chest hurt everytime he saw Osborne.

Continued endgame spoilers:
I kinda hope he stays dead. It's more intriguing and thematically tight to have him out-bastarded when Ouroborus threw their weight (and much more than they gave him) to the ILF/Nobility. Then we can find out about that Dark Hadou acting up whenever he's around Rean later.
 
I suspect that Osborne is still alive and the whole assassination thing was something he and Ouroboros came up with. I think the noble faction and the liberation front are being used by Ouroboros and that they were never told about Osborne's relationship with Ouroboros. Osborne's death was never outright confirmed and they never explained why Rean's chest hurt everytime he saw Osborne.

While I agree with you that Osborne's death was never confirmed and that they still haven't explained why he triggered Rean's scar, I disagree that Osborne was in cahoots with Ouroboros as the events progressed because he was heavily monitoring C's movements and was surprised that he managed appear and "kill" him, also because I think that Ouroboros have a different direction than Osborne and probably decided that he outlived his usefulness.

Now either Osborne is really dead, or he prepared a gambit in case if C did show up and assassinated him.
 

SolVanderlyn

Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
On Osborne:
It could be that Olivert was simply mistaken and Osborne had other agendas and benefactors separate from Ouroboros. He could have easily gotten those tanks from one of Reinford's factories, right?
 

Erheller

Member
On Osborne:
It could be that Olivert was simply mistaken and Osborne had other agendas and benefactors separate from Ouroboros. He could have easily gotten those tanks from one of Reinford's factories, right?

The thing is that he knew to prepare the tanks in advance.

The game points out that the steam tanks are obsolete and would be useless in a regular war, so Osborne must have had some way of knowing that orbments were going to be disabled sometime. Pretty much no one outside of Ouroboros (and even then, most of the Enforcers didn't know what was going to happen) would have been able to predict that, so it stands to reason that Osborne and Ouroboros had some sort of contact.

The steam tanks themselves seem to resemble Imperial tanks pretty closely, so they were probably provided by an Imperial manufacturer, likely the Reinford Group.
 

GNOSIS

Member
Just finished Chapter 5 at almost 60 hours. It should take me 15-20 hours more to finish I assume? I did every side quest possible but I didn't talk to NPC that often.

SC is supposed to be a longer game right? I'm not sure I'm ready for another long long game. (I finished FC at around 60 hours mark)

And a bit about Chapter 5:
Practical exam was quite tricky this time. I had to reset for a few times because I couldn't get Rean to dodge and counterattack. And I thought they would reveal Emma's secret in this chapter at the castle but apparently not. I'm very curious about it. So temped to open the art book and read....

Still love it so far!
 

Nyoro SF

Member
Finally got my first complete KO vs. the chapter 5
castle
boss. Unfortunately I wasn't very satisfied with how I died to it; it was merely a status effect that no one could have prepared for (plus being attacked from all angles meant I couldn't split up), and I was killed before I had a chance to do any planning. Reloaded from the save before the fight, assigned the proper accessories, and then wiped the floor with him. Lots of interesting attacks from that boss, first time I felt like I was no longer fighting a "Sky" battle.

The resolution to the
prologue
was kind of amusing given how tremendous the game made it feel. Really fun boss fight afterwards though.
So much shit has happened in Chapters 4 and 5, I'm kind of exhausted. The first part of the ending with Chapter 5 is confusing in how it relates to the whole story. Lots of questions without answers and answers without questions.

Complaints:
Red Moon Rose writing is worse than most teen novels. I'll let it rock though.
What kind of military base doesn't have
anti-aircraft guns!?
.
I threw
Millium
in the back of the bus, but I can't save the game from her influence that easily. The character is painful to listen to every single time she opens her mouth. The dynamic between Rean and his classmates, already difficult to juggle, is basically torn apart to make room for this shoved-in earsore. Honestly depressing to think this character will likely be present for the rest of the game.
 

Gu4n

Member
Falcom seems to have a problem with being overly ambitious. Wasn't Sky supposed to be one game that was later split into two? Then they were going to make a sequel in Erebonia but decided it wasn't time yet so went to Crossbell instead? Then decided they needed another Sky game to bridge the gap? And Cold Steel I and II were supposed to be one game as well.

I mean, kudos to them for actually delivering on such ambitious projects, but you'd think they'd plan a little more accurately by now, haha.
Ambitious, but not over-ambitious. Kiseki has become what director Tetsuya Takashi aspired: a tightly interconnected, multi-episodic story set in a highly detailed world. Takahashi tried with Xenogears (the fifth episode out of a series of six), Xenosaga (three games instead of the six that were originally planned). He, unforuntately, seems to have limited his scope nowadays, notwithstanding the immense size of games like Xenoblade and Xenoblade X.

Personally, I think Falcom is doing really well for a company with less than 50 employees. Because they don't have the excessive budgets some other developers have, they've become one of the best in terms of resource management.
 
Personally, I think Falcom is doing really well for a company with less than 50 employees. Because they don't have the excessive budgets some other developers have, they've become one of the best in terms of resource management.

The fact that they're an independent (though publicly traded) corporation that self-publishes/funds their own products helps a lot.

They don't get a huge publisher cheque because they sign their own cheque even if they ultimately answer to shareholders.
 

Bladenic

Member
Regarding Millium, I truly forgot if
she was related to Osborne or merely referred to him as Gramps as a derogatory term. I feel like it was the latter cuz when he got shot she didn't much give a shit, but that means we know nothing about her life so I'm assuming they'll tell us more in CS2.
 
I'm in the middle of Chapter 6, and there's some really good throwbacks here.
(SC spoilers on top of CS spoilers)
I'm glad Olivert seems so central to the situation. I've said it before, but having seen firsthand how useful a small autonomous force can help solve large scale problems, it makes complete sense that Olivert would try to emulate this in Erebonia, particularly considering the political challenges the Empire is facing. I also took it as a means to give more direct power to the imperial family. The way I understand things, the Chancellor theoretically acts on behalf of the central, imperial power, but he effectively wields his own power, with the Emperor's consent. Olivert's initiative gives the imperial family the means to act without having to go through the Chancellor. That kind of maneuvering on his part is interesting as it further illustrates what we had seen of Prince Olivert in SC, when he managed to prevent what would have essentially been an Erebonian invasion of Liberl.

Seeing The Courageous was so hype too. I saw it and for a second wondered if they had somehow recovered and recommissioned the Glorious, before realizing it looked more like a red Arseille. The super cool crew of Arseid, Toval, Olivert and Mueller was almost too much as it's like they took the coolest characters and threw them on the coolest ship. I mean, Laura's dad is a complete Cassius analogue.

I'm kind of dreading finishing the game now, because I fear the wait for CS2 will be hard. Over the past month, I've played FC, SC and this back to back, for a current total of something like 150 hours, so I might experience Zemurian withdrawal lol.
 

aravuus

Member
Is it just me, or does globby fat have a stupid tiny drop chance? I've spent like a million hours in chapter 2 already, and I've only got two of them. Need three more.

Goddamn it.
 

aravuus

Member
Equip the quartz that increases item drop rates.

Good tip, totally forgot about it. Thanks!

The game's fairly easy, so I've been ignoring the orbment system pretty much completely so far. Maybe I should start fucking around with builds and whatnot, should make the battles a bit more fun.

e: okay, so, the low drop rate might be because I've been fighting enemies on the Aurochs Canyon Path, where they don't drop the fat, not on the North Kreuzen Highway, where the enemies do in fact drop it

Slept like 10 hours last night and I've already had coffee, what's going on?!
 
Go to Micht's Pawn Shop and check what he's selling. If he doesn't have one of your books in stock exit his shop and re-enter. Do this a few times and eventually it should pop up in stock, replacing one of the food items. I don't know if they ever expire, but I did manage to buy the third book in like chapter 5 when I found out about this

Good to know. It showed up in the final chapter without having to do this luckily.

So I am in the final Chapter at what is presumably the final dungeon. I ran out of Clear Gelatin to cook a few things. Is there any way to get them at this point?
 

bomblord1

Banned
Final chapter
That final performance was a bit disconcerting I have no clue what that was and making it in Japanese when literally no other part of the game was and seeing everyone "singing" while only hearing a Japanese vocalist was just weird. Not to mention crows English "everyone join in" in the middle made it even worse

Final dungeon and the Mecha were hype still so many unanswered questions got me properly excited for the sequel

Other thoughts screw the freaking Steel Golems in the final dungeon
 

SolVanderlyn

Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
Ambitious, but not over-ambitious. Kiseki has become what director Tetsuya Takashi aspired: a tightly interconnected, multi-episodic story set in a highly detailed world. Takahashi tried with Xenogears (the fifth episode out of a series of six), Xenosaga (three games instead of the six that were originally planned). He, unforuntately, seems to have limited his scope nowadays, notwithstanding the immense size of games like Xenoblade and Xenoblade X.

Personally, I think Falcom is doing really well for a company with less than 50 employees. Because they don't have the excessive budgets some other developers have, they've become one of the best in terms of resource management.
I never made the connection between Takahashi and Xenogears/Saga. No wonder this series is so good.

What I said came off as an insult, but it wasn't. I love how expansive the series is. It just seems like it never goes as planned, which has ended up working out in the long run but is pretty amusing regardless.
 
Ambitious, but not over-ambitious. Kiseki has become what director Tetsuya Takashi aspired: a tightly interconnected, multi-episodic story set in a highly detailed world. Takahashi tried with Xenogears (the fifth episode out of a series of six), Xenosaga (three games instead of the six that were originally planned). He, unforuntately, seems to have limited his scope nowadays, notwithstanding the immense size of games like Xenoblade and Xenoblade X.

Personally, I think Falcom is doing really well for a company with less than 50 employees. Because they don't have the excessive budgets some other developers have, they've become one of the best in terms of resource management.

I wish I could un-see this. Clearly he has improved since the Xenosaga days then. Kiseki isn't without it's flaws, but what I have played so far has been very good.
 

Varion

Member
Regarding Millium, I truly forgot if
she was related to Osborne or merely referred to him as Gramps as a derogatory term. I feel like it was the latter cuz when he got shot she didn't much give a shit, but that means we know nothing about her life so I'm assuming they'll tell us more in CS2.
Oh, there's no suggestion in the game that she's actually related to him. In the Japanese she just refers to him as 'ojisan,' which is a typical way of referring to an 'old'* man (or the word for uncle), which always surprises everyone because it's not REALLY something you'd use to refer to the widely feared chancellor of a major military power who everyone else is using fancy titles like Your Excellency for, it's more something you'd use a random old guy on the street. Gramps was the best thing I could think of to try and convey that in English.

* In reality kids have crazy definitions of what 'old' is and use it to people in their 20s and 30s too.
 
I wish I could un-see this. Clearly he has improved since the Xenosaga days then. Kiseki isn't without it's flaws, but what I have played so far has been very good.
Just in case there's any confusion: Takahashi has nothing to do with the Kiseki series. This was just a comparison between the Kiseki series and another similar effort to tell RPG stories in an ambitious, expansive shared universe (Takahashi's various Xeno games).
 

Eusis

Member
Just in case there's any confusion: Takahashi has nothing to do with the Kiseki series. This was just a comparison between the Kiseki series and another similar effort to tell RPG stories in an ambitious, expansive shared universe (Takahashi's various Xeno games).
Kiseki started shortly after Xenosaga did anyway.

I can see the angle that Takahashi improved anyway, but that is mainly only towards Xenoblade for keeping it neatly closed up rather than going further than his company/budget would allow, while Xenoblade X might be the opposite in that it leaves a million and one questions without much sure fire indication for if that will be developed further (though I guess he'd have one last shot at chasing that longer developed universe then...)
 

SolVanderlyn

Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
Just in case there's any confusion: Takahashi has nothing to do with the Kiseki series. This was just a comparison between the Kiseki series and another similar effort to tell RPG stories in an ambitious, expansive shared universe (Takahashi's various Xeno games).
Ah, I misunderstood. It's not too far-fetched to think there might be a connection, though.
The church and sept-terrion artifacts and the like are very Xeno-esque.
 

Busaiku

Member
Geez, the last floor of the last dungeon was such a step up in difficulty.
The boss was easy enough to lock into Chrono Burst, but getting through the dungeon like that would've taken ages.
 
Geez, the last floor of the last dungeon was such a step up in difficulty.
The boss was easy enough to lock into Chrono Burst, but getting through the dungeon like that would've taken ages.

Man I had the opposite experience, the final floor was a joke, took 3 tried to beat the final boss had to eventually use zeram -> scraft spam to win
 

Saphirax

Member
Guess I missed a chest somewhere since the plat guide said I should have gotten the chest grabber trophy and I didn't :(

You probably missed the chest in Bareahard. I've noticed the guide doesn't seem to mention it. There's a chest in the city that is only accessible via the Underground Waterway.
 
You probably missed the chest in Bareahard. I've noticed the guide doesn't seem to mention it. There's a chest in the city that is only accessible via the Underground Waterway.

No I got that one for sure since I made sure to go out of the way to do that

Oh well I need two runs to plat anyways so its not the end of the world
 

Famassu

Member
Do battle stats remain when you die & retry? And do they carry on to the NG+? Just thinking about that "cancel 100 enemy arts" trophy. There's this good boss fight during which you can do tons of arts cancels but I only have, like, 18 cancels so far... Just wondering if I need to do my hardest to keep myself alive or if I can just die & retry if things get a bit tough or if the boss is near dying and I haven't gotten the trophy yet. Or if I can just say fuck it and try to do a bit better of a job canceling arts during my NG+ run with my 18+ cancels already counted for.

What about that 1000 battles won trophy? Does it have to happen during a single playthrough?
 

Gu4n

Member
Do battle stats remain when you die & retry? And do they carry on to the NG+? Just thinking about that "cancel 100 enemy arts" trophy. There's this good boss fight during which you can do tons of arts cancels but I only have, like, 18 cancels so far... Just wondering if I need to do my hardest to keep myself alive or if I can just die & retry if things get a bit tough or if the boss is near dying and I haven't gotten the trophy yet. Or if I can just say fuck it and try to do a bit better of a job canceling arts during my NG+ run with my 18+ cancels already counted for.
What about that 1000 battles won trophy? Does it have to happen during a single playthrough?
They do not remain when you retry, but do carryover if you make use of that option when starting NG+. Same goes for the 1000 victories.
 
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