The Legend of Korra: Book Two Spirits |OT| Korra Ain't Number Wan
- Thread starter Omikaru
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Yeah, imagine if Korra had to get her abilities back. I dunno. Maybe people would have complained it was too much like Aang's arc. Although at least in Korra's case, it would have been a higher mountain to climb (since she would have to figure out how to get her path ways unblocked). Maybe a better comparison was Aang's struggle to unlock his Avatar state. I dunno.
Either way, Book 1 had a lot of great ideas. A lot of set up. There was a ton of potential. It's always sad to hear that the writers approached the show as a one off thing. I think the ending could have been a lot different.
Exactly, I think Korra has the potential to be significantly better than ATLA.
Honestly as a main character I think Korra is easier to identify with and a bit more interesting that Aang (to me), though the supporting cast and companions were better in ATLA for the most part. I think there is potential with Bolin and Asami, but to be honest I don't really think Mako serves much of a purpose except as a plot device and part of the 'love triangle'. If anyone gets killed off it should be him. The secondary cast is pretty excellent, and I almost always enjoy Tenzin and family, who are very well acted.
The setting I find significantly more interesting that ATLA. The steampunk early-20th Century vibe is great, though I would like it more if there were still 'unexplored' parts of the distant world that weren't mapped already. I find TLOK's dabbling in politics and social issues interesting, but my opinion is that if they're going to do it then they should develop it more. Of course I also appreciate that it is a show for kids.
So overall it's mainly just the actual plotting and the supreme lack of character development of Mako, Asami and Bolin that I dislike. Mako and Asami exist solely for the cheesy teen romance which I don't especially hate but I don't like that that's their ONLY purpose, and Bolin exists to be a stupid moron and occasionally save the day. Heck, Tenzin and family had significantly more character development in S2 than "Team Avatar".
Honestly as a main character I think Korra is easier to identify with and a bit more interesting that Aang (to me), though the supporting cast and companions were better in ATLA for the most part. I think there is potential with Bolin and Asami, but to be honest I don't really think Mako serves much of a purpose except as a plot device and part of the 'love triangle'. If anyone gets killed off it should be him. The secondary cast is pretty excellent, and I almost always enjoy Tenzin and family, who are very well acted.
The setting I find significantly more interesting that ATLA. The steampunk early-20th Century vibe is great, though I would like it more if there were still 'unexplored' parts of the distant world that weren't mapped already. I find TLOK's dabbling in politics and social issues interesting, but my opinion is that if they're going to do it then they should develop it more. Of course I also appreciate that it is a show for kids.
So overall it's mainly just the actual plotting and the supreme lack of character development of Mako, Asami and Bolin that I dislike. Mako and Asami exist solely for the cheesy teen romance which I don't especially hate but I don't like that that's their ONLY purpose, and Bolin exists to be a stupid moron and occasionally save the day. Heck, Tenzin and family had significantly more character development in S2 than "Team Avatar".
I'm going to stay optimistic. I was always someone that actually liked Book 1. So for me, while I REALLY didn't like Book 2, I can still say I liked most of Book 1, and liked about half of Book 2 (and 2 still had some incredible moments). So the shows track record for me isn't as bad as those that hated Book 1 as well. I can imagine for them, Book 2 was enough to get them to stop watching.
Dark Horse is going to release some new merch for Korra and A:TLA!
http://www.darkhorse.com/Blog/1598/dark-horse-deluxe-produce-merchandise-based-hit-ni
Mattel didn't even want to make action figures for A:TLA's female characters so this is a big improvement.
http://www.darkhorse.com/Blog/1598/dark-horse-deluxe-produce-merchandise-based-hit-ni
Mattel didn't even want to make action figures for A:TLA's female characters so this is a big improvement.
I watched season 2 all in one hit. Basically from beginning to end.
Beginnings was freaking fantastic. Wan was awesome and so was seeing some of the history of the world.
Aside from those two episodes there weren't any action scenes that I liked anywhere near as much as I enjoyed from the first season. I really liked the pro-bending tournaments and the metal bending police officers and the city riots.
At least Aman inspired fear. He could take away bending! That almost brought the city to its knees. I feel like 'the end of the universe' in season 2 seemed to LOWER the stakes rather than raise it.
I still enjoyed season 2 but I felt the quality decline somewhat. Also they're trying too hard to make Bolin into Sokka. I thought Bolin was meant to be good with girls? Sigh.
Beginnings was freaking fantastic. Wan was awesome and so was seeing some of the history of the world.
Aside from those two episodes there weren't any action scenes that I liked anywhere near as much as I enjoyed from the first season. I really liked the pro-bending tournaments and the metal bending police officers and the city riots.
At least Aman inspired fear. He could take away bending! That almost brought the city to its knees. I feel like 'the end of the universe' in season 2 seemed to LOWER the stakes rather than raise it.
I still enjoyed season 2 but I felt the quality decline somewhat. Also they're trying too hard to make Bolin into Sokka. I thought Bolin was meant to be good with girls? Sigh.
I wonder how many people will be happy to see me back to rip Korra a new one next season
For me, my expectations couldn't be lower and there isn't anything they can really do to raise my hype over the show. And character they bring, any conflict they suggest, no matter how potentially interesting a premise, I just don't have any faith they can pull off in a way that's narratively competent. That said, here is my wishlist and the reason I'm bothering with season 3:
1. Purdiness - If there is anything LoK does halfway competently is that it can have some really nice animation and aesthetic design. I love the design of Korra and Asami and Amon and even I liked Beginnings in terms of visuals. And the crappy studio isn't touching this one either, so hopefully it will be good.
2. Korra - I don't think anyone expected this one on the list. Unlike most people here, I don't dislike Korra on a person basis. She's a stupid thug, but my problem with her is that makes her a bad avatar, not a bad person. Idk, it's hard to hate on her when more than half the cast is insufferable. And if the other characters acknowledged how bad an avatar she is, I would have less of a problem with her. But I've given up on that happening. Last season Korra threatened to let her monsterous polar bear dog maul a guy for doing his job, for christ sake. Instead, I'm just going to see how far they can go in making her a psychopath. What is she going to do next, burn a person alive? Take over the Water Tribe? Conquer the four nations like Ozai planned to? I wouldn't put anything past her at this point. And the writers love to make her all DARK AND GRITTY because they just hate how they made Aang....uh, likable, I guess, so I hope they go all out and just make her fucking insane to the point of hilarity. Anything to be different from ATLA, right?
3. Asami - If we are going to get anything resembling a quality narrative, Asami is the most likely source from which we will get it. She had a good arc in the first season. They messed her up in the second. But since her character, unlike Korra, isn't dependent on how the physics of the universe operate, she is more salvageable as a character. Granted, they're going to have to give a really damn good explanation for why her participating in war profiteering and working with the kinds of people that murdered her mother was within the bounds of her character, but its atleast possible. Idk, maybe she was doing cocaine because she was depressed and that just lead to bad decision making.
4. A decent villain - Keep in mind I am going by Korra's standard of 'decent', which is amon, who we found out was a hypocrite powered by a plot device that came out of nowhere. That said, he was voiced by steve blum and had an awesome mask design. In comparison, Unalaq was uncharismatic, has a silly sounding name, and looked so ordinary that I wouldn't have known he was even a significant character if I was just going by visual design. Both were terribly written characters, but it's LoK, that just kind of comes with the territory. I don't expect S3's villain to change that pattern, but hopefully they'll imbue him with something that makes him fun to watch like Amon was.
5. Um....music? - I guess? I honestly can't think of much else we can reasonably expect
For me, my expectations couldn't be lower and there isn't anything they can really do to raise my hype over the show. And character they bring, any conflict they suggest, no matter how potentially interesting a premise, I just don't have any faith they can pull off in a way that's narratively competent. That said, here is my wishlist and the reason I'm bothering with season 3:
1. Purdiness - If there is anything LoK does halfway competently is that it can have some really nice animation and aesthetic design. I love the design of Korra and Asami and Amon and even I liked Beginnings in terms of visuals. And the crappy studio isn't touching this one either, so hopefully it will be good.
2. Korra - I don't think anyone expected this one on the list. Unlike most people here, I don't dislike Korra on a person basis. She's a stupid thug, but my problem with her is that makes her a bad avatar, not a bad person. Idk, it's hard to hate on her when more than half the cast is insufferable. And if the other characters acknowledged how bad an avatar she is, I would have less of a problem with her. But I've given up on that happening. Last season Korra threatened to let her monsterous polar bear dog maul a guy for doing his job, for christ sake. Instead, I'm just going to see how far they can go in making her a psychopath. What is she going to do next, burn a person alive? Take over the Water Tribe? Conquer the four nations like Ozai planned to? I wouldn't put anything past her at this point. And the writers love to make her all DARK AND GRITTY because they just hate how they made Aang....uh, likable, I guess, so I hope they go all out and just make her fucking insane to the point of hilarity. Anything to be different from ATLA, right?
3. Asami - If we are going to get anything resembling a quality narrative, Asami is the most likely source from which we will get it. She had a good arc in the first season. They messed her up in the second. But since her character, unlike Korra, isn't dependent on how the physics of the universe operate, she is more salvageable as a character. Granted, they're going to have to give a really damn good explanation for why her participating in war profiteering and working with the kinds of people that murdered her mother was within the bounds of her character, but its atleast possible. Idk, maybe she was doing cocaine because she was depressed and that just lead to bad decision making.
4. A decent villain - Keep in mind I am going by Korra's standard of 'decent', which is amon, who we found out was a hypocrite powered by a plot device that came out of nowhere. That said, he was voiced by steve blum and had an awesome mask design. In comparison, Unalaq was uncharismatic, has a silly sounding name, and looked so ordinary that I wouldn't have known he was even a significant character if I was just going by visual design. Both were terribly written characters, but it's LoK, that just kind of comes with the territory. I don't expect S3's villain to change that pattern, but hopefully they'll imbue him with something that makes him fun to watch like Amon was.
5. Um....music? - I guess? I honestly can't think of much else we can reasonably expect
If you watch it expecting something mindblowingly mature and perfectly thought out, it's a Nickelodeon cartoon ffs! A very well-written and entertaining one sure, one that excels at world building and contains in many ways more mature storylines than most 'adult' TV shows, but a cartoon designed primarily for kids nonetheless. Sometimes they'll screw up, I just personally find that hauling the writers over the coals for every little problem is like Bronies writing hundred page essays on the politics of My Little Pony- sad, ulimately pointless, and a little bit pathetic. Not that criticism isn't valid, but some of the hatred in this thread is quite ridiculous.
ATLA was mindblowingly mature and ....well, not perfectly, but very well thought out for the most part.
And a bit of dislike is to be expected when you see the ruination of something you hold very dear to your heart. I'm not going to apologize or be ashamed that I hate what they've done to TLA's wonderful universe.
You are stronger than me Veelk. I get beat down by bad writing to a point where I just give in. The Walking Dead comes to mind. At a certain point I just come to accept that a show is awful, and lose the will to criticize it (because the flaws are so consistent and repetitious). If this season is as bad as Book 2 (or worse), I might throw a grumble here or two. But my days of writing paragraphs of complaints are over for this one. I'll probably just be in the fetal position weeping for Asami.
But yeah, my ONLY hope is that I actually liked Book 1. I hated Book 1's ending, and I knew it had flaws. But I actually really enjoyed it! So while I hated Book 2 overall, the highs of Book 2 + Book 1, makes me think that they are still capable of putting out at least a decent season. Now, if you hated Book 1, and the best hope you have is that it reaches Book 1's level, then this shows pretty much over for those kind of fans, I think.
But yeah, my ONLY hope is that I actually liked Book 1. I hated Book 1's ending, and I knew it had flaws. But I actually really enjoyed it! So while I hated Book 2 overall, the highs of Book 2 + Book 1, makes me think that they are still capable of putting out at least a decent season. Now, if you hated Book 1, and the best hope you have is that it reaches Book 1's level, then this shows pretty much over for those kind of fans, I think.
Honestly, I feel that's the smarter decision. I don't think I'll be as enthusiastic about it this season as I was last. You're very right in that criticizing it on that level would just repetitious. I think most people know the show is bad at this point. It will probably be more like snarky one paragraph criticisms, unless someone decides to make a bigger issue out of it. But I don't think there are enough people left who give a shit
Edit: That post was sadder than intended. Instead, here is something amusing I found, fan stuff, one of the few things LoK can still deliver on.
Nearly done rewatching the season. Will post detailed thoughts later today. That said, its better than I remember. Still has huge glaring flaws, of course, but there's enough good here that I'm enjoying myself.
I look forward to veelk disagreeing with every point I make. (No, that's not sarcasm)
I look forward to veelk disagreeing with every point I make. (No, that's not sarcasm)
If it makes you feel any better, I like a show that's even worse than Korra, and I have to force myself to be just as hard on it. It hurts.
Get bent.
Santerestil
Banned
If it makes you feel any better, I like a show that's even worse than Korra, and I have to force myself to be just as hard on it. It hurts.
What show?
TacticalFox88
Banned
Apparently criticism of a show is a 'little bit pathetic'. When i consider the amount of thought me and a lot of other people have put into this thread, being called 'pathetic' cuts deep.
Nevermind that ATLA was the one supposedly aimed at a 9-12 audience and Korra targets a higher demo, or that ATLA alone was a far more complex and interesting story that it seems perfectly reasonable to expect an at least equally sophisticated sequel to.
I did miss the "pathetic" bit, so your response makes a bit more sense. I just wasn't trying to see you get clipped on some small time stuff.
Perfect Cha0s
Member
Korra is neither of those things, and ATLA, which was conceived by the same people, and took place in the same universe, was leagues better. For whatever else I've said about Korra, it just drives me up a wall that ATLA was so notably good, and now Korra is so notably bad.
TacticalFox88
Banned
Need I remember that these are the same guys who made fucking Zuko, arguably one of the most developed cartoon characters in the past decade.
This drop is just....
This drop is just....
No, as I said, criticism is still valid and I've posted before to show my opinions about Book 2, which were that it was quite disappointing. Nevertheless, just as it's a little bit futile to criticise the narrative complexity of Harry Potter or Twilight or Treasure Island, because they aim to be simple and entertaining adventures for 'young adults' (ie older kids), so it is kind of dumb to level the kind of six-paragraph-long criticial analyses of every last flaw with LOK at the writers, when they are aiming to create a fun adventure for an audience that is hardly at the height of its intellectual capability.
Korra can still make a turnaround like Zuko. She just needs her own Iroh.Need I remember that these are the same guys who made fucking Zuko, arguably one of the most developed cartoon characters in the past decade.
This drop is just....
And no, Tenzin is not her Iroh.
RPGCrazied
Member
Whats the word of of air date? Seems like this has been off of TV for awhile now. At least since the Holidays.
Futile in what sense - in that it's dumb to think about things, or that it won't result in the show changing?
Infinite Justice
Member
But yet they did a much better job with their earlier series.
I guess that was just a fluke then
Alright, I'm done rewatching season 2, and I would like to share my thoughts. I don't expect to change opinions here. By now, I'm sure everyone has decided on how they feel about the season. But I'll share my thoughts anyways, because I like talking about the show. To be perfectly clear, season 2 of Korra was very flawed, but I think some of the complaints have been completely overblown. No, its not shit. No, it does not retroactively ruin the original series. Though flawed, season 2 had many great moments and is better than the sum of its parts.
Now where to begin? I suppose I should comment on the concept of The Legend of Korra. I recall a brief discussion last year about some people saying that the concept of Legend of Korra - the steampunk, more technological society was a bad thing because it took some of the mysticism out of the world and nerfed things like lightening. I disagree with this completely. Conceptually, The Legend of Korra is damn near flawless. By that I mean the basic ideas that make up both seasons - the premise (not the execution) was great. Season 1 introduced us to a more advanced avatar world and had a huge political issue as the basis for the season. Season 2 touched on the fact that the world was becoming a less spiritual place, and had a war between the two water tribes. These are great ideas. I'm glad they are trying to explore topics like that.
Of course, the execution was been questionable.
I think the worst part of the season was the republic city plotline. The plotline relied on the other characters not believing Mako. But... the viewer knows he's right. We know that he is 100% right, with solid evidence behind him. So all of the other characters just looked so fucking stupid the whole season (Looking at you, Lin). Additionally, the plotline was very detatched from the rest of what was going on. Varrick was great, but the plotline didn't really go anywhere. I won't bother defending this part of the season. Besides Varrick, it was weak.
The second thing I won't defend is Korra. Her attitude early in the season was awful. She was a bitch to Mako, to Tenzin, and to her dad. I understand her frustrations with her dad and Tenzin (Mako didn't deserve her attitude though), but she just came off as very unlikable. Her actions against the judge were stupid, her actions with Raiko were stupid - she's just so rash. She improved later in the season - the episode with Iroh was probably my favourite of all of LOK. But the amneisa plotline was a bit unneeded and her personality did a 180 after it which was odd.
The shipping remains unneeded and unwanted. Takes up far too much time. The ONLY exception to this is when Asami killed Mako in her warehouse. That was believable. She was venerable, and still had feelings for Mako. I can buy that.
Ok, so far so good. You must be thinking "Wow, I thought Tuck was trying to defend the season, but so far all I hear is complaints!" Well, as I have said - the season was flawed. So lets dive into some of the things that other people hated but that I didn't mind.
Unalaq. Poor guy, coming off Amon, he never stood a chance. But actually, his motivation was far more solid than Amon. He's a religious extremist. We have plenty of those in our world. The show mentions numerous time his connection to the spirits, and he mentions several times how he hates how the world has become less spiritual (This was said in the first episode!). Yes, he wanted power. But not blindly. He wanted to achieve something with that power. I think the issue with him was that we spent a long time not knowing what he was after. Also, he was clearly evil but Korra fell for it hook line and sinker. I suppose the writers expected the viewer to believe that Korra was so desperate for someone to believe in her that she was willing to listen to Unalaq, but this reflects poorly on her.
The season finale also seemed to be love it or hate it. I liked it. The moment in the Tree of Time when that music kicks in and Korra appears in space on the ice walkway is one of my favourite moments in LOK. Mechanically, there was nothing wrong with the ending, as far as I can tell. Blue korra was silly looking, but there is nothing that breaks the rules of what happened. Even the Jinora bit, which was poorly explained, breaks no rules. Really - try and tell me how a rule was broken. Everything that happened can be explained away - they just did a poor job doing so during the show.
The air temple plotlines were strong. Character development all around. Jinora should have had more scenes - I definitely agree with you on that Azula. Some people took issue with the writers shitting on Aangs character. But Aang wasn't perfect, even in TLA. I think this was an unexpected way to take the story, and it may be a hard pill to swallow, but I think they did this well. And I think his kids have some great bonding scenes over the season. I know Azula had a huge issue with Tenzin. Tenzin isn't a shmuck - he was shown to be very knowledgable of the spirit world. But the fact is that if anyone could get to the spirit world, more people would do so. Why do you think Katara never joined Aang in a spirit world adventure? Because she couldn't. Its something you either have or don't. I take no issue with this, and I don't think Tenzin having a hard time accepting it is stupid. Its perfectly believable. That doesn't make him a fraud, nor useless. He is still a spiritual man. He is still a knowledgable man.
Bolin has also gotten some slack. He's a dummy, yes. But his heart is in the right place. People like saying he's Sokka without the tactical skills. Well, thats true. But he is far more useful in a fight. Look, LOK is TLA. We're gonna see different types of characters. Bolin is a dummy, and thats fine. Of course, thats not all he should be. I'm glad he got screen time this season, though the movers stuff ate up a lot of time. You could see that Bolin struggled with "What am I good at? What do i do with everyone else gone?" early in the season. I'm not saying this was done perfectly, but give the guy a break. It may not have been deep but it was reasonably entertaining. As for Asami, she continues to be the best character, despite continuously being shat on by the writers. Hope she does more next season.
As for the Begginings episodes, I thought they were great. Veelk was upset that they didn't explain why humans were on the lion turtles. To me, its irrelevant. The humans needed shelter, the lion turtles gave it to them (This was stated in the show). Why did this happen? Well thats a different story. It can be as simple or as complex as it needs to be, its not really important. The concept of Rava and Vattu was solid, and I liked the origin of bending, and how it tied into the previous explanations given in TLA.
I'll end it there. I've written enough. I've said this before, but I think some of the issues from season 2 are born from the way season 1 was written. It was meant as a standalone season and it shows. The writers had to go back and change a lot to give themselves room to work with. I try to avoid saying stuff like "They should have done X instead of Y" but with season 1, they really should have had Korra not gain her powers back. That would have been a perfect lead-in to season 2's events and story arcs.
I strongly believe that LOK did not deserve the shit it got in this thread. Yes, it was flawed (As was season 1). But the core of the show remains solid, and the later episodes in the season were some of the best in both TLA and TLOK. I look forward to season 3. Hopefully they find firm footing.
Now where to begin? I suppose I should comment on the concept of The Legend of Korra. I recall a brief discussion last year about some people saying that the concept of Legend of Korra - the steampunk, more technological society was a bad thing because it took some of the mysticism out of the world and nerfed things like lightening. I disagree with this completely. Conceptually, The Legend of Korra is damn near flawless. By that I mean the basic ideas that make up both seasons - the premise (not the execution) was great. Season 1 introduced us to a more advanced avatar world and had a huge political issue as the basis for the season. Season 2 touched on the fact that the world was becoming a less spiritual place, and had a war between the two water tribes. These are great ideas. I'm glad they are trying to explore topics like that.
Of course, the execution was been questionable.
I think the worst part of the season was the republic city plotline. The plotline relied on the other characters not believing Mako. But... the viewer knows he's right. We know that he is 100% right, with solid evidence behind him. So all of the other characters just looked so fucking stupid the whole season (Looking at you, Lin). Additionally, the plotline was very detatched from the rest of what was going on. Varrick was great, but the plotline didn't really go anywhere. I won't bother defending this part of the season. Besides Varrick, it was weak.
The second thing I won't defend is Korra. Her attitude early in the season was awful. She was a bitch to Mako, to Tenzin, and to her dad. I understand her frustrations with her dad and Tenzin (Mako didn't deserve her attitude though), but she just came off as very unlikable. Her actions against the judge were stupid, her actions with Raiko were stupid - she's just so rash. She improved later in the season - the episode with Iroh was probably my favourite of all of LOK. But the amneisa plotline was a bit unneeded and her personality did a 180 after it which was odd.
The shipping remains unneeded and unwanted. Takes up far too much time. The ONLY exception to this is when Asami killed Mako in her warehouse. That was believable. She was venerable, and still had feelings for Mako. I can buy that.
Ok, so far so good. You must be thinking "Wow, I thought Tuck was trying to defend the season, but so far all I hear is complaints!" Well, as I have said - the season was flawed. So lets dive into some of the things that other people hated but that I didn't mind.
Unalaq. Poor guy, coming off Amon, he never stood a chance. But actually, his motivation was far more solid than Amon. He's a religious extremist. We have plenty of those in our world. The show mentions numerous time his connection to the spirits, and he mentions several times how he hates how the world has become less spiritual (This was said in the first episode!). Yes, he wanted power. But not blindly. He wanted to achieve something with that power. I think the issue with him was that we spent a long time not knowing what he was after. Also, he was clearly evil but Korra fell for it hook line and sinker. I suppose the writers expected the viewer to believe that Korra was so desperate for someone to believe in her that she was willing to listen to Unalaq, but this reflects poorly on her.
The season finale also seemed to be love it or hate it. I liked it. The moment in the Tree of Time when that music kicks in and Korra appears in space on the ice walkway is one of my favourite moments in LOK. Mechanically, there was nothing wrong with the ending, as far as I can tell. Blue korra was silly looking, but there is nothing that breaks the rules of what happened. Even the Jinora bit, which was poorly explained, breaks no rules. Really - try and tell me how a rule was broken. Everything that happened can be explained away - they just did a poor job doing so during the show.
The air temple plotlines were strong. Character development all around. Jinora should have had more scenes - I definitely agree with you on that Azula. Some people took issue with the writers shitting on Aangs character. But Aang wasn't perfect, even in TLA. I think this was an unexpected way to take the story, and it may be a hard pill to swallow, but I think they did this well. And I think his kids have some great bonding scenes over the season. I know Azula had a huge issue with Tenzin. Tenzin isn't a shmuck - he was shown to be very knowledgable of the spirit world. But the fact is that if anyone could get to the spirit world, more people would do so. Why do you think Katara never joined Aang in a spirit world adventure? Because she couldn't. Its something you either have or don't. I take no issue with this, and I don't think Tenzin having a hard time accepting it is stupid. Its perfectly believable. That doesn't make him a fraud, nor useless. He is still a spiritual man. He is still a knowledgable man.
Bolin has also gotten some slack. He's a dummy, yes. But his heart is in the right place. People like saying he's Sokka without the tactical skills. Well, thats true. But he is far more useful in a fight. Look, LOK is TLA. We're gonna see different types of characters. Bolin is a dummy, and thats fine. Of course, thats not all he should be. I'm glad he got screen time this season, though the movers stuff ate up a lot of time. You could see that Bolin struggled with "What am I good at? What do i do with everyone else gone?" early in the season. I'm not saying this was done perfectly, but give the guy a break. It may not have been deep but it was reasonably entertaining. As for Asami, she continues to be the best character, despite continuously being shat on by the writers. Hope she does more next season.
As for the Begginings episodes, I thought they were great. Veelk was upset that they didn't explain why humans were on the lion turtles. To me, its irrelevant. The humans needed shelter, the lion turtles gave it to them (This was stated in the show). Why did this happen? Well thats a different story. It can be as simple or as complex as it needs to be, its not really important. The concept of Rava and Vattu was solid, and I liked the origin of bending, and how it tied into the previous explanations given in TLA.
I'll end it there. I've written enough. I've said this before, but I think some of the issues from season 2 are born from the way season 1 was written. It was meant as a standalone season and it shows. The writers had to go back and change a lot to give themselves room to work with. I try to avoid saying stuff like "They should have done X instead of Y" but with season 1, they really should have had Korra not gain her powers back. That would have been a perfect lead-in to season 2's events and story arcs.
I strongly believe that LOK did not deserve the shit it got in this thread. Yes, it was flawed (As was season 1). But the core of the show remains solid, and the later episodes in the season were some of the best in both TLA and TLOK. I look forward to season 3. Hopefully they find firm footing.
Obstensively, i agree with you (does that disappoint you?), but premises are just ideas. You can have an absolutely terrible premise and it could work if you put enough effort into it. If I were to try to explain Kill la Kill's premise to you, I don't think I could do it without sounding insane, but the show is good. It's better to say that Korra's premise is incredibly intriguing, mostly because a lot of the leg work is already set up from TLA. That's the advantage of sequels, people are already invested in ideas and willing to see them through.
It's not merely us knowing the truth of the situation. It might have been annoying, but if Lin had good reasons for disbelieving Mako, then it wouldn't be bad writing that people don't believe him. I'm sure there has been a storyline like that elsewhere.
Again, you're not wrong anywhere so far. You're not giving me much to work with here to disagree.
Ahahahahaha, oh I wish that was what happened
Unalaq's problem was not the premise of his character. Especially in a world where spirits are a real and verifable thing, his zealotry isn't an issue itself. The problem is that we have no idea, even today, what his goal actually was, besides power. Okay, he fuses with the evil kite spirit and become the nega-avatar: What then? He releases spirits back into the world? Okay, what does that accomplish? How is that better than how it was before?
It goes back, as I've always said, to spirituality of the series no longer being about beliefs or metaphysics. Now it's just superpowers, or humans who happened to be shaped like giant lemurs or whatever. "Spirituality" has lost it's meaning in this series, so when Unalaq says "Spirituality is leaving the world", it doesn't say anything about the metaphysical nature of the universe, it just means he's pissed he can't shoot laser beams at people like he wants to.
To be honest, there probably were plenty of 'rules broken', but I have neither the time nor energy to get into it right now. For one, I don't remember it all that well, it being like...how long ago was it? Six months? A year? I'd have to rewatch the series, like you did, to refresh myself on all that happened and why it shouldn't have. If you want an argument from me on this aspect, you probably ought to just look up my old ones.
But I will make a comment on 'rules'. We use that word, but in reality, there are none. It's fiction. Literally anything can happen. Korra could grow wings and fly, and you could use the same argument: When was it a 'rule' that Korra couldn't do that? Who, in the show, would have the authority to say so definitively if that were not the case? Rather, i can only argue, and have extensively done so, why things aren't believble. Korra 'can't' sprout wings and fly because we have no reason to believe she should be able to. And that's why a lot of what is happening in the finale, like Jesus Jinora, is a deus ex machina. It's not that someone said that Jinora couldn't resolve the plotline like she did, but we had no reason to believe she should be able to, nor that she is 'spiritually gifted' from how spirituality was defined by the last series, nor a lot of things I'm probably forgetting.
Christ sake, I've seen this argument about a billion times at this point. I think people could argue my reasons for why I don't buy it for me at this point, so I'll be succinct. Aang being flawed does not mean that it is believable he would be flawed in the way they protray. If that were true, we could discover Aang was secretly a serial killer and child rapist all this time, and it'd be in character because he was not a mary sue when he was younger, so obviously he has the potential for that, right? And I've commented on the spiritual rules being haywire plenty of times. Also, if korra is to be believed, Katara could have joined Aang on spirit world adventures, since it's apparently possible for people to piggyback on others into it.
As far as Tenzin goes, I consider him to be an awful mentor, but the bigger problem is that spirituality is working wrong in LoK,, rather than Tenzin being incapable of 'using it'
I'm not going to dismiss your arguments on a typo, but it is amusing how seem to tend to undermine what your trying to say, lol
On the other hand, "LoK is DIFFERENT from TLA, which is a justification in itself"? FFS, not this shit again...okay, that I am going to dismiss. You know why it's wrong, don't pretend you don't. At this point, I think people only bring it up to troll me into a response. WELL NOT THIS TIME. Instead, I'll just say, no, Bolin's story wasn't entertaining, it was dumb, as he is, and icky when he molested Ginger, and no, it didn't justify his presence in the story.
Only one of the many problems with it. I can accept that the lion turtles doing this could have just been a different story for another time, but I do think their actions that occur within Wan's story require justification, like why bother exiling him if they are going to give him tools to survive anyway (contrary to belief, Exile was basically a form of execution in those days). And it certainly didn't tie bending well into TLA, given how it works completely differently. I don't know how many times it has to be explained that in TLA, bending of any kind was not just a superpower you could get if a mythical being touched you in your special area.
Not at all, though I'm surprised that you missed out on them, considering how you followed this thread as it went on (unless I'm misremembering your participation, but I'm pretty sure I saw you around often enough). Anyway, it's just that some of those arguments have been brought up many, many times, and I'm sick of repeating my counterpoints on them, that's all.
Tuck, your point of Unalaq is interesting, but I don't think they really did a good job building up the character. Yeah, he was a religious extremist. But how did he get that way? What made him really think that the world was so much worse than it used to be? All we got was a vague backstory, where he was willing to get his own brother thrown out of the kingdom. Why? Again, how did he become that person, and why did he feel the need to betray his own flesh and blood? Yeah, Unalaq gave his speech about how things are worse. But we really didn't get to see WHY he thinks the world is worse off. I have a hard time believing that a younger brother of a royal family, just magically has a deep connection to spirits and takes on these views. There was more to the guy and how he became this person, and that was missing.
Amon also lacked depth with motivation, as it was all shoehorned into some poor exposition in the finale of Book 1. But Amon was a great villain in terms of being a "threat". So while I agree he lacked depth where it counts (motivation), he was still a much better overall villain. Unalaq might have been a more interesting concept (and the whole religious/spiritual extremism concept ties much better into the Avatar universe than Amon's own personal grievances of a terrible father). As shitty as Amon's plot was in the end, you still felt SLIGHTLY bad for the guy, because of what his father did to him and his family - and how he associated that with bending. I say SLIGHTLY, because it was poorly handled. But I still felt more for Amon in the end, then I ever did Unalaq. Unalaq just descended into a typical/cliche uber villain. Now, I'm not saying every villain needs to be relatable or sympathetic. Hell, some of the best villains are just chaos. But then Unalaq needed to be menacing, and again..Amon was a better villain in that regard as well.
I'll have to read your post a couple more times before I reply. But I feel like a lot of your points is that Book 2 had some great concepts. But execution is everything. IMO this season failed at every level when it came to constructing arcs. Even on an episode to episode basis, they failed to structure plot in a coherent way. I can step back and admit that a lot of what Book 2 was pretty good, in concept. But I can't agree that anything was handled well (or well written).
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I also would like to point out, I did in fact have an issue with Tenzin. Not so much the plot itself, but just WHERE it was coming from with in plot. I kind of did a shit job explaining what I meant in our PM convo Tuck, but basically it's this:
I think in any story, pacing, mood are really important. To the first part, I think this season was front loaded with Korra's shittnyess, that I wasn't in the mood for Tenzin acting out the way he did, especially it coming immediately off the heels of Korra being "magically" cured of her shittyness. It felt like we were getting hit with a full dose of people being completely irrational. But let me clear, I think it's perfectly reasonable for Tenzin to have acted the way he did. In the context of his arc this season (him living under the shadow of his father, and feeling like a failure for not living up to his legacy), his actions made sense. I agree that when the episode initially aired, I was unfair to this moment.
BUT, I still think that mood/pacing matters. And when a season is piling on so much of this, it becomes intolerable. After re-watching the season, I still feel this way. Had they done a better job pacing this out, I think it would have worked better. But I'll fully admit that I was wrong to criticize it (to the degree that I did). So yes, I think Tenzin's story was definitely worth telling, and was one of the better things of the season (especially on my re-watch).
I'm still torn on them fleshing out Aang's story as an adult, through his children. Especially when we see his children have such mixed feelings about him as a father. Not because I think Aang is perfect, and incapable of flaws (he had many flaws ATLA). But because, I'm not sure him being a questionable father really lines up with the personality of Aang that we knew. Granted, adults are different than their younger selves. But if we are setting up this entire plot arc around his children feeling neglected and inferior, I kind of want to know WHY. What happened to Aang, that he became this way. Outside of running Republic City (which is a big task), I wonder what caused his kids to feel the way they do. I get them feeling inferior, and not living up to his legacy. That part makes sense to me. But there was a lot of deep stuff going on here, and I'm not sure how I feel about it.
Amon also lacked depth with motivation, as it was all shoehorned into some poor exposition in the finale of Book 1. But Amon was a great villain in terms of being a "threat". So while I agree he lacked depth where it counts (motivation), he was still a much better overall villain. Unalaq might have been a more interesting concept (and the whole religious/spiritual extremism concept ties much better into the Avatar universe than Amon's own personal grievances of a terrible father). As shitty as Amon's plot was in the end, you still felt SLIGHTLY bad for the guy, because of what his father did to him and his family - and how he associated that with bending. I say SLIGHTLY, because it was poorly handled. But I still felt more for Amon in the end, then I ever did Unalaq. Unalaq just descended into a typical/cliche uber villain. Now, I'm not saying every villain needs to be relatable or sympathetic. Hell, some of the best villains are just chaos. But then Unalaq needed to be menacing, and again..Amon was a better villain in that regard as well.
I'll have to read your post a couple more times before I reply. But I feel like a lot of your points is that Book 2 had some great concepts. But execution is everything. IMO this season failed at every level when it came to constructing arcs. Even on an episode to episode basis, they failed to structure plot in a coherent way. I can step back and admit that a lot of what Book 2 was pretty good, in concept. But I can't agree that anything was handled well (or well written).
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I also would like to point out, I did in fact have an issue with Tenzin. Not so much the plot itself, but just WHERE it was coming from with in plot. I kind of did a shit job explaining what I meant in our PM convo Tuck, but basically it's this:
I think in any story, pacing, mood are really important. To the first part, I think this season was front loaded with Korra's shittnyess, that I wasn't in the mood for Tenzin acting out the way he did, especially it coming immediately off the heels of Korra being "magically" cured of her shittyness. It felt like we were getting hit with a full dose of people being completely irrational. But let me clear, I think it's perfectly reasonable for Tenzin to have acted the way he did. In the context of his arc this season (him living under the shadow of his father, and feeling like a failure for not living up to his legacy), his actions made sense. I agree that when the episode initially aired, I was unfair to this moment.
BUT, I still think that mood/pacing matters. And when a season is piling on so much of this, it becomes intolerable. After re-watching the season, I still feel this way. Had they done a better job pacing this out, I think it would have worked better. But I'll fully admit that I was wrong to criticize it (to the degree that I did). So yes, I think Tenzin's story was definitely worth telling, and was one of the better things of the season (especially on my re-watch).
I'm still torn on them fleshing out Aang's story as an adult, through his children. Especially when we see his children have such mixed feelings about him as a father. Not because I think Aang is perfect, and incapable of flaws (he had many flaws ATLA). But because, I'm not sure him being a questionable father really lines up with the personality of Aang that we knew. Granted, adults are different than their younger selves. But if we are setting up this entire plot arc around his children feeling neglected and inferior, I kind of want to know WHY. What happened to Aang, that he became this way. Outside of running Republic City (which is a big task), I wonder what caused his kids to feel the way they do. I get them feeling inferior, and not living up to his legacy. That part makes sense to me. But there was a lot of deep stuff going on here, and I'm not sure how I feel about it.
Probably RWBY
Yup. Fantastic premise. Interesting world. Great aesthetics. Good character archtypes. Execution is, by and large, so bad.
Still has potential to be good though.
Gonna try to respond to some of your points Veelk. Apologies if you've already covered what I've said. And hopefully my shitty writing skills don't get in the way of what I'm trying to say.
Well ok, lets start with this: What exactly did spirituality mean to you in the original show? Bending was always said to be based on humans relationship to the spirits, but we never saw that. At least in Korra we saw how true bending skills were learned from spirits, even if the origin of the ability came elsewhere. As for spirituality being an inherrent gift - that doesn't bother me. It makes sense that not everyone could be uber spiritual and get to the spirit world, otherwise everyone would. The spiritual people in our world never got to visit the deity of their choice, but they are still spiritual people.
Unalaq wasn't just pissed about... laser... beams... =/ - he clearly states that humans had turned a festival that was about fasting and praying into some commercial event.
Now, you and Azula do make some good points. How did Unalaq get this way? Why would this be better? Those are good questios. Those should have been fleshed out more. But I mean, why was the fire lord so evil? How did he get that way? I don't know, it wasn't really ever explored. Should it have been? Would have been nice. That said, Fire Lord did have a certain coolness factor that Unalaq did not.
"Aang being flawed does not mean it is believable that he would be flawed in the way that they portray." You can say this about any plot point in any medium. The serial killer comparison is obviously completely absurd and you know it, so I'm not going to comment on that. Why is it unbelievable that Aang may not have been a perfect father? The guy was busy as hell, likely traveling all over the world. Tenzin got to go along solely because he had the future of the airbenders riding on him, nothing more. Given what we know about Aang's situation, it is not inplausible, and they did a fine job explaining it, though it needed more resolution.
Hmm a few things here. Was Bolin's story unnecessary? Yeah, probably. Was it entertaining? Entertaining enough. Was it pure shit that singlehandedly ruined the canon? ...No. The plotline was out of place and not needed, but for what it was, it was entertaining.
Second, I'm going to stand by the LOK is different than TLA statement. Now to be clear: I was NOT trying to give Bolin a free pass there. "Legend of Korra is different than The Last Airbender" is not justification in itself, you are right. HOWEVER, this whole "Bolin isn't as funny as Sokka! Bolin isn't as tactical as Sokka! Bolin isn't as smart as Sokka!" thing needs to stop. They ARE different characters. Yes, Bolin does need to be more developed. No, it does not bother me that he is a dummy. And NO, the fact that Bolin is not Sokka does not automatically make him worse.
Its pretty much always been a super power, no matter the source. Lets not kid ourselves here. Humans inherently having the gift of bending doesn't exactly make sense, or rather its not much of an explanation. They had to get the ability (Not the skill) from somewhere, and that explanation had to account for non-benders. I suppose seeing the Lion turtles perspective on things would have been nice.
Oh totally, no disagreements there. I could be imagining it, but I recall a discussion in this thread about the possibility of Legend of Korra's premise being inherently flawed and undesirable, and I disagree with that completely - ignoring both the quality of season 1 and 2, and ignoring the details of each season, I was merely commenting on the shows premise. But you are right, there is more to a show than just a cool idea.
Well, judging by his actions in Republic city with all the vines, he wanted to destroy human advancement/technology and create a world where humans and spirits live together. But I think I'm ignoring the crux of your point here so let me continue after this next bit:
Well ok, lets start with this: What exactly did spirituality mean to you in the original show? Bending was always said to be based on humans relationship to the spirits, but we never saw that. At least in Korra we saw how true bending skills were learned from spirits, even if the origin of the ability came elsewhere. As for spirituality being an inherrent gift - that doesn't bother me. It makes sense that not everyone could be uber spiritual and get to the spirit world, otherwise everyone would. The spiritual people in our world never got to visit the deity of their choice, but they are still spiritual people.
Unalaq wasn't just pissed about... laser... beams... =/ - he clearly states that humans had turned a festival that was about fasting and praying into some commercial event.
Now, you and Azula do make some good points. How did Unalaq get this way? Why would this be better? Those are good questios. Those should have been fleshed out more. But I mean, why was the fire lord so evil? How did he get that way? I don't know, it wasn't really ever explored. Should it have been? Would have been nice. That said, Fire Lord did have a certain coolness factor that Unalaq did not.
Yeah this is fair, I know its been a while.
"Aang being flawed does not mean it is believable that he would be flawed in the way that they portray." You can say this about any plot point in any medium. The serial killer comparison is obviously completely absurd and you know it, so I'm not going to comment on that. Why is it unbelievable that Aang may not have been a perfect father? The guy was busy as hell, likely traveling all over the world. Tenzin got to go along solely because he had the future of the airbenders riding on him, nothing more. Given what we know about Aang's situation, it is not inplausible, and they did a fine job explaining it, though it needed more resolution.
Hmm a few things here. Was Bolin's story unnecessary? Yeah, probably. Was it entertaining? Entertaining enough. Was it pure shit that singlehandedly ruined the canon? ...No. The plotline was out of place and not needed, but for what it was, it was entertaining.
Second, I'm going to stand by the LOK is different than TLA statement. Now to be clear: I was NOT trying to give Bolin a free pass there. "Legend of Korra is different than The Last Airbender" is not justification in itself, you are right. HOWEVER, this whole "Bolin isn't as funny as Sokka! Bolin isn't as tactical as Sokka! Bolin isn't as smart as Sokka!" thing needs to stop. They ARE different characters. Yes, Bolin does need to be more developed. No, it does not bother me that he is a dummy. And NO, the fact that Bolin is not Sokka does not automatically make him worse.
Its pretty much always been a super power, no matter the source. Lets not kid ourselves here. Humans inherently having the gift of bending doesn't exactly make sense, or rather its not much of an explanation. They had to get the ability (Not the skill) from somewhere, and that explanation had to account for non-benders. I suppose seeing the Lion turtles perspective on things would have been nice.
I have to a test to study for today, so my answers are going to be shorter than usual for the sake of time.
Yes, but that leads into the next point: Spirits and humans are living together again. So what? How does that make things better for anyone? What was so wrong about them being kept separate?
Like I said in my previous post, Bending used to be a mindset, a belief. When Zuko lost his drive to capture Aang, he had to gain a new drive to use firebending. Physically, there was nothing wrong with him. It was that he was lacking in the right mindset. It was also pointed out in the same episode that the Firenation's firebending has been corrupted from being fueled by drive to instead being fueled by aggression. And appropriately enough, when Zuko learned to use passion to fuel his firebending instead of anger, his moves became more dancelike and he even rivaled Azula in a fight. Another example of this is Aang learning earthbending. He had the right form, he had the right stance, etc, but he was not stubborn, and he had to learn to stand his ground before he could use earthbending.
Spirits, on the other hand, were more ideas manifested into entities, not 'people'. Koh the face stealer for example. Why can he only steal faces if the other person makes an expression? Think about it. He clearly wanted to steal Aang's face. As far as we know, he doesn't answer to any kind of authority that forces him to act this way. So why didn't he just steal his face, expression or no? Well, we don't know for sure, but it was probably more because they just don't operate by the same kind of rules of logic that we do. He can't steal an expressionless face any more than we can walk through a solid wall, even though to us that doesn't make any sense to us because there is nothing physically stopping him from doing so. That is what a spiritual being ought to be like.
So what does spriituality mean in Korra? Because in Korra, bending is entirely unrelated to what your are thinking or believing. They went on and on about how airbending is the most spiritual element, but she learned airbending because she had an earthly attachment, which is like saying that you are a vegan because you eat nothing but meat. Yeah, Unalaq talked about spirituality, but he never defined it as anything. He didn't talk about it in terms of finding peace or letting go of desire or anything like that. The only way he seemed to understand it is in terms of the superpowers he got from it.
Ozai was a sociopath, plain and simple. He wasn't a deep character (though deeper than others think, I'd argue, but that's probably only because I studied what real sociopathy actually is and am impressed how they managed to portray it realistically in a kids show) and they never pretended he was anything but. That's why they spend most of the time developing Azula. Ozai just wanted power for powers sake and was pretty upfront about that. Both the show and Unalaq consider them as someone deeper. To be spiritual is to have a certain philosophy they abide by. He had goals that were supposed to serve a higher purpose and be more well thought out. If nothing else, the second season, at the end, gave credence to Unalaq by having Korra combine the spirit and human realm like he wanted, even though no one still knows why and what it will accomplish besides humans and spirits living together. We needed more exploration into his character than just that he had vague goals he considered to be the greater good for reasons unknown.
I could easily believe that Aang wouldn't be the perfect father. He was raised in a culture where they gave up their children to be raised by monks. To Aang, 'family' is just people he loves. I imagine he is the type to have no problem just ditching his kids with Sokka or Toph so he could go do whatever. He would think of Sokka and Toph as being equal positions to him and Katara as caretakers or "parents", because that they are made up of his genes means little to him. In that sense, I could get that he would be a bad father. However, purposefully taking one of his kids on a vacation while he leaves the other two home because Tenzin's an airbender and therefore deserves special treatment? No. Aang would obviously take care to keep his culture alive, but he wouldn't flat out selectively neglect his children like that. Because this wasn't 'keeping the culture alive'. this was just taking his kid out to ember island. I could easily believe he might neglect them all equally, but not selectively.
You must be talking about different people than me. I don't care or really want Bolin to be Sokka, not the least bit of which because he sucks at it. What I want is for him to have a purpose in the group. He's an awful earthbender and they already have Lin, he's flat out stupid, and his comedy is weak. He has very little dynamic with the rest of the group aside from them staring embarrassingly at his pratfalls. For most of Korra, his roles that have been integral to the plot have been as follows: Part of the love triangle in first 5 episodes of Korra. Once that role ended, he was basically demoted to Space Occupier for the rest of the season. Then in season 2, he remained a Space Occupier until the Verrick plot where the plot wouldn't move forward until he stopped being a jackass. His 'storyline', if it can be called that, with the creepy chick basically amounted to nothing whatsoever. It could have never happened, because even at the end, the twins decided to turn against their father because they got sick of his shit, not because of anything Bolin did. The only thing consistent about him is that he serves as the comic relief.
The problem with Bolin is that he isn't so much a character, but a joke machine. The writers want to have their super serious love story with Mako and their super serious political plot with Korra, but they also know they need comic relief, so they give it to Bolin to do, and then force themselves to think of ways to include him after the fact. The difference between him and Sokka is that while Sokka also served as comic relief, that wasn't the reason for his existence. It never felt like he just didn't belong in the group because he was consistently part of the dynamic of whatever was happening.
I don't need Bolin to be Sokka, I just need him to be a character.
I'm sorry, but you're wrong. Bending operates on a much more superficial level in Korra than it did in TLA and the differences don't make any sense. Bending never made scientific sense, obviously, it was very well defined by internal rules of the narrative. Beliefs and mindsets were the fuel that burned the fire or moved the earth, not lion turtle juju. Understand, if Korra was it's own series, the origin story presented wouldn't be a problem. I would not have the same objections to it as I do, besides it being a very shallow reasoning, because the contradiction to the original series wouldn't exist. But the original series does exist, and it defined the bending powers as functioning in a different way than they do in Korra. There are other reasons for why it doesn't work, like why lion turtles even give enough of a shit about humanity to bother with them, but even if all that was answered, it's not enough until they reconcile the differences between the series.
Yes, but that leads into the next point: Spirits and humans are living together again. So what? How does that make things better for anyone? What was so wrong about them being kept separate?
Like I said in my previous post, Bending used to be a mindset, a belief. When Zuko lost his drive to capture Aang, he had to gain a new drive to use firebending. Physically, there was nothing wrong with him. It was that he was lacking in the right mindset. It was also pointed out in the same episode that the Firenation's firebending has been corrupted from being fueled by drive to instead being fueled by aggression. And appropriately enough, when Zuko learned to use passion to fuel his firebending instead of anger, his moves became more dancelike and he even rivaled Azula in a fight. Another example of this is Aang learning earthbending. He had the right form, he had the right stance, etc, but he was not stubborn, and he had to learn to stand his ground before he could use earthbending.
Spirits, on the other hand, were more ideas manifested into entities, not 'people'. Koh the face stealer for example. Why can he only steal faces if the other person makes an expression? Think about it. He clearly wanted to steal Aang's face. As far as we know, he doesn't answer to any kind of authority that forces him to act this way. So why didn't he just steal his face, expression or no? Well, we don't know for sure, but it was probably more because they just don't operate by the same kind of rules of logic that we do. He can't steal an expressionless face any more than we can walk through a solid wall, even though to us that doesn't make any sense to us because there is nothing physically stopping him from doing so. That is what a spiritual being ought to be like.
So what does spriituality mean in Korra? Because in Korra, bending is entirely unrelated to what your are thinking or believing. They went on and on about how airbending is the most spiritual element, but she learned airbending because she had an earthly attachment, which is like saying that you are a vegan because you eat nothing but meat. Yeah, Unalaq talked about spirituality, but he never defined it as anything. He didn't talk about it in terms of finding peace or letting go of desire or anything like that. The only way he seemed to understand it is in terms of the superpowers he got from it.
Ozai was a sociopath, plain and simple. He wasn't a deep character (though deeper than others think, I'd argue, but that's probably only because I studied what real sociopathy actually is and am impressed how they managed to portray it realistically in a kids show) and they never pretended he was anything but. That's why they spend most of the time developing Azula. Ozai just wanted power for powers sake and was pretty upfront about that. Both the show and Unalaq consider them as someone deeper. To be spiritual is to have a certain philosophy they abide by. He had goals that were supposed to serve a higher purpose and be more well thought out. If nothing else, the second season, at the end, gave credence to Unalaq by having Korra combine the spirit and human realm like he wanted, even though no one still knows why and what it will accomplish besides humans and spirits living together. We needed more exploration into his character than just that he had vague goals he considered to be the greater good for reasons unknown.
I could easily believe that Aang wouldn't be the perfect father. He was raised in a culture where they gave up their children to be raised by monks. To Aang, 'family' is just people he loves. I imagine he is the type to have no problem just ditching his kids with Sokka or Toph so he could go do whatever. He would think of Sokka and Toph as being equal positions to him and Katara as caretakers or "parents", because that they are made up of his genes means little to him. In that sense, I could get that he would be a bad father. However, purposefully taking one of his kids on a vacation while he leaves the other two home because Tenzin's an airbender and therefore deserves special treatment? No. Aang would obviously take care to keep his culture alive, but he wouldn't flat out selectively neglect his children like that. Because this wasn't 'keeping the culture alive'. this was just taking his kid out to ember island. I could easily believe he might neglect them all equally, but not selectively.
You must be talking about different people than me. I don't care or really want Bolin to be Sokka, not the least bit of which because he sucks at it. What I want is for him to have a purpose in the group. He's an awful earthbender and they already have Lin, he's flat out stupid, and his comedy is weak. He has very little dynamic with the rest of the group aside from them staring embarrassingly at his pratfalls. For most of Korra, his roles that have been integral to the plot have been as follows: Part of the love triangle in first 5 episodes of Korra. Once that role ended, he was basically demoted to Space Occupier for the rest of the season. Then in season 2, he remained a Space Occupier until the Verrick plot where the plot wouldn't move forward until he stopped being a jackass. His 'storyline', if it can be called that, with the creepy chick basically amounted to nothing whatsoever. It could have never happened, because even at the end, the twins decided to turn against their father because they got sick of his shit, not because of anything Bolin did. The only thing consistent about him is that he serves as the comic relief.
The problem with Bolin is that he isn't so much a character, but a joke machine. The writers want to have their super serious love story with Mako and their super serious political plot with Korra, but they also know they need comic relief, so they give it to Bolin to do, and then force themselves to think of ways to include him after the fact. The difference between him and Sokka is that while Sokka also served as comic relief, that wasn't the reason for his existence. It never felt like he just didn't belong in the group because he was consistently part of the dynamic of whatever was happening.
I don't need Bolin to be Sokka, I just need him to be a character.
I'm sorry, but you're wrong. Bending operates on a much more superficial level in Korra than it did in TLA and the differences don't make any sense. Bending never made scientific sense, obviously, it was very well defined by internal rules of the narrative. Beliefs and mindsets were the fuel that burned the fire or moved the earth, not lion turtle juju. Understand, if Korra was it's own series, the origin story presented wouldn't be a problem. I would not have the same objections to it as I do, besides it being a very shallow reasoning, because the contradiction to the original series wouldn't exist. But the original series does exist, and it defined the bending powers as functioning in a different way than they do in Korra. There are other reasons for why it doesn't work, like why lion turtles even give enough of a shit about humanity to bother with them, but even if all that was answered, it's not enough until they reconcile the differences between the series.
Pegosaurus
Banned
Personally, I actually liked Spirits more than Air. I realize that Unalaqs background and motivation are super vague, but I also feel like Amon didn't have any real motivation either, and that Unalaq was a much more pressing threat than Amon was. As for the contradictions and flaws in reference to ATLA, I'm not terribly concerned with that. I get that in ATLA bending was much more spiritual etc., but I don't particularly think that that is a necessary quality for a person to bend. I'll elaborate soon, but overall I quite enjoyed the second book of Korra, particularly more than the first. I'm gonna jump into Veelks post...
Also, for all the people who say Korra was wrong when she attacked the judge, Raiko, and for trusting Unalaq, I disagree. Korra may be the avatar, but she's also a 17 year old girl. She didn't have an upbringing by monks like Aang did. Aang was taught much differently than Korra, which is why he seemed more mature. Just because Korra is the avatar doesn't mean she has to be like Aang all the time. She took matters into her own hands, and did what she thought was right (which I ultimately believe was right). No one shits on Avatar Kyoshi, and she did whatever the fuck she wanted to. Also, Unalaq was her uncle! He was family! it would make sense for Korra to give him the benefit of the doubt, although I do think she was somewhat harsh on her father and Tenzin.
Also, for all the people who say Korra was wrong when she attacked the judge, Raiko, and for trusting Unalaq, I disagree. Korra may be the avatar, but she's also a 17 year old girl. She didn't have an upbringing by monks like Aang did. Aang was taught much differently than Korra, which is why he seemed more mature. Just because Korra is the avatar doesn't mean she has to be like Aang all the time. She took matters into her own hands, and did what she thought was right (which I ultimately believe was right). No one shits on Avatar Kyoshi, and she did whatever the fuck she wanted to. Also, Unalaq was her uncle! He was family! it would make sense for Korra to give him the benefit of the doubt, although I do think she was somewhat harsh on her father and Tenzin.
No, because Aang wasn't taking him on some kind of culture education thing. He was taking him to the beach on ember island. That's a vacation, where he remembers him just having fun. What secrets of airbending was he suppose to unlock there? Furthermore, this again puts an emphasis on the actual bending aspect of the air nomad culture. Pushing air around is only a small part of that. There is no reason that he shouldn't have given all his children lessons in air nomad culture. And he wouldn't. Do you know why I know he wouldn't? Because he didn't do that to the public at large. That's why we have the entire air temple present in Republic City. No one there except Tenzin and his kids can airbend, but they can still live the air nomad lifestyle.
This is the fundamental flaw of Korra. Bending is not a culture. Bending is the result of the culture. The 4 nations would still be the 4 nations if they lost their bending. They wouldn't be if they lost everything but their bending. You honestly think Aang would think the only way to keep his culture alive is by having a kid that can blow like he does? No. There was even an episode where he struggled with this exact problem and he came to the conclusion I am describing. It's not in the ability to blow a gust of wind that makes him an airbender, it's the beliefs he carries. That is what being an Air Nomad means. It's not to say that losing that part of air nomad culture wouldn't suck, but it's not something Aang, the avatar, who understands that a bending is the result of a culture and not hte source of it, would prioritize over.
Actually, I do, but I already explained it a while ago. I'll find the posts later, since I'm busy atm, but all the elements were explained and there was a good inference for why the lion turtle would help that doesn't work with them randomly being humanities giant bulters. Fire is passion and life. Earth is strength of will. Water is ebb and flow, probably the most physical of the elements if there is one. Air is spirituality. As for your analogy, nothing in the episodes in which it occurred suggests what you say and characters act otherwise and solve the problems in the way I describe. It's a good hypothesis, but it requires the characters all to be ignorant of whats happening, who are also professionals in this art, act in another way to solve those problems, with those programs also going away for undescribed reasons at conveniently the same time that they get what they need to solve their problem. There's no evidence and it's highly unlikely for it to happen the way it did.
Um.....I don't care what age you are, your gender, or culture you are from, you can't threaten to have people mauled just because you don't like whats happening. Korra believed the trial was fair, and she was going attacking this judge who was just doing his job just because she didn't like that her father is the one who was going to jail? I sympathize with how she must have felt, but that is the morally wrong action, and it coincidentally turning out to be a sham in retrospect does not justfiy that. If you seriously think there is anything right about what she did, I have grave concerns for your morals then.
Bending has never just been about spirituality - there has always been a physical part of the equation. Its why there are non benders. Its why two benders can have a non-bender child. By saying it is solely due to spirituality, you ignore the questions:
"Well... then why can't anyone chose to be a bender?"
"Why are they limited to only one element?"
"Why can't they switch between elements?"
"Where did the physical ability to bend come from?"
I do not deny that there is a huge spiritual aspect, but Beginnings did cover this. Wan was shown learning how to bend properly from a dragon. Through his bending, he became closer to the spirits, which was the whole point. Zuko lost his bending because he lost his drive - the one thing that was pushing him forward, so the "fire through anger" method did not work. At no point did he lose his physical ability to bend, but he was disconnected spiritually. And thats the thing, bending is about the physical and the spiritual. No one in the Beginnings episode had this issue. The fire nation as a whole lost its understanding of the deeper meaning of bending but were still able to do so. By your logic, Azula should not have been able to be a fire bending prodigy, as she was bending fire the wrong way.
I've been wanting to use that gif for a long time. Isn't it cute? Seemed somewhat maybe appropriate in this instance.
I've always been curious about that actually. There's a few ways to interpret what happened with the Fire Nation's bending.
The simplest explanation is that the two spiritual paths are still connected. Sun-style firebending draws chi from life and energy; Rage-style firebending draws it from explosions of life and energy in uncontrolled directions - but still within the control of the bender themselves (for the most part; witness Zhao, who is a master firebender but suffered severely from control issues). Azula in this sense cares nothing for life, but is still powered by her anger and general ferocity - manifestations of her own life energy, but directed in a negative direction.
You might think of it as sun-style firebending being more energy-efficient, but Azula is a rage machine of death so she has more raw power.
The simplest explanation is that the two spiritual paths are still connected. Sun-style firebending draws chi from life and energy; Rage-style firebending draws it from explosions of life and energy in uncontrolled directions - but still within the control of the bender themselves (for the most part; witness Zhao, who is a master firebender but suffered severely from control issues). Azula in this sense cares nothing for life, but is still powered by her anger and general ferocity - manifestations of her own life energy, but directed in a negative direction.
You might think of it as sun-style firebending being more energy-efficient, but Azula is a rage machine of death so she has more raw power.
Pegosaurus
Banned
Thanks for the reply. I respect your arguments, but I think a fundamental difference between us is our investment in how Korra contradicted ATLA. I'm not terribly concerned with how they equate to each other, and just appreciate Korra for what it is. On that note, however I think most of your thoughts are very valid, and hard to argue with. I just wanted to post what I thought as well, but I have no intention of changing your views, and even feel like you're right about most of the things you said (except the Tenzin one, I still feel like that one can be explained pretty easily), but with the bending I just don't know if there's any concrete evidence that certain factors are necessary. About your regards to morals though, you're correct. I feel as though I'm a very morally gray person, and in a situation like Korra was in, I don't think I would have felt bad threatening someone to get answers out of them, but once again, I feel like that's just a fundamental difference between our moral views.
I greatly agree with this. Also, I do like that .gif
Bending has never just been about spirituality - there has always been a physical part of the equation. Its why there are non benders. Its why two benders can have a non-bender child. By saying it is solely due to spirituality, you ignore the questions:
"Well... then why can't anyone chose to be a bender?"
"Why are they limited to only one element?"
"Why can't they switch between elements?"
"Where did the physical ability to bend come from?"
I do not deny that there is a huge spiritual aspect, but Beginnings did cover this. Wan was shown learning how to bend properly from a dragon. Through his bending, he became closer to the spirits, which was the whole point. Zuko lost his bending because he lost his drive - the one thing that was pushing him forward, so the "fire through anger" method did not work. At no point did he lose his physical ability to bend, but he was disconnected spiritually. And thats the thing, bending is about the physical and the spiritual. No one in the Beginnings episode had this issue. The fire nation as a whole lost its understanding of the deeper meaning of bending but were still able to do so. By your logic, Azula should not have been able to be a fire bending prodigy, as she was bending fire the wrong way.
I've been wanting to use that gif for a long time. Isn't it cute? Seemed somewhat maybe appropriate in this instance.
Most of this is correct, but I don't understand why you are mentioning this, since I never said bending was solely spiritual. But Korra ignores the spirituality wholesale, which should make it not work, the same way a car, no matter how nice, can't function without an engine. At other points, it flat out contradicts whats suppose to happen, with how she learned airbending.
I disagree that beginnings addresses this. Hanging out with Dragons is no indication that Wan learned spirituality from them. Zuko and Aang went to learn from dragons so they could produce the amount of fire necessary. I don't have the episode with me atm, but Wan was producing plenty of fire from what I saw, and he only learned better physical movements from what we saw with dragons. I would just assume that he learned the spiritual stuff off screen, but I can't give it that benefit of the doubt given how Korra has handled spirituality in every other aspect of the series. We never saw him learning anything about firebending as a philosophy. All we saw him is learn the dance, but that is no guarantee that it was learned for the same purpose or to the same effect as Aang and Zuko.
As for Azula, there are multiple ways to be spiritual. With her, she made her discipline her religion, practicing until not a single hair was out of place. A big part of spirituality is the repetition of some sort of action, be it a martial art like Shaolin Monks, prayer, or just tending to a zen garden, day in and day out. It isn't merely that Azula's movements were perfect, but also the fact that her fire was blue, which doesn't just happen, not even with more powerful firebenders like Ozai and Iroh. Besides, since everyone was firebending the 'wrong' way, that doesn't mean she couldn't be a prodigy. She was just one of the best at using the wrong kind of firebending. Though personally, it's think it's wrong to say it's the 'wrong' kind of firebending, more like the less efficient or pure of the form. They still derived meaning from firebending, except it was more about anger and superiority than life and passion. It's no more wrong than it is to say that arrogance is the wrong form of confidence. That may be, but that doesn't mean it lacks meaning, its just less healthy. And as her faith in her perfectionism was shaken as she broke down, the wilder her firebending became, to the point where she was just chucking huge balls of fire at Zuko, compared to her usual precise flames. Even Zuko went into the final battle believing he would need to work together with Katara to beat her, but then changed his mind and thought (and was correct, until she cheated) that he could take her on himself. Physically, Azula was as heallthy as ever, but her mind, and the key to her discipline spirituality, was in shambles.
Nice Gif though.
Edit: Also, humorously enough, LoK is the one that eliminated the actual movements of bending with Yakone, who could basically bloodbend an entire room of people without moving a finger, which is funnier still because Waterbending was the most physically oriented of the elements in the first place.
This may be diverging into a different topic, but morality has little to do with how you feel. In a compromising enough state of emotions, I agree that any of us could take Korra's actions, just because...fuck, that's my family. But just because you do something out of emotional distress, I don't see how that makes an action right. If you lose your job and house and family, and you decide to take it out on a random person by murdering them, is there anything grey about that to you just because you really, truly felt horrible about how your life went? That looks pretty black to me.
Started watching season 2 of this show yesterday.
Gotta say, Korra is terrible. Terrrrrrible, and she's grating to the sense because of how short-sighted she is allllllllllllllllll the time. She doesn't learn from her mistakes, she doesn't have perspective, she's just kind of stupid.
Gotta say, Korra is terrible. Terrrrrrible, and she's grating to the sense because of how short-sighted she is allllllllllllllllll the time. She doesn't learn from her mistakes, she doesn't have perspective, she's just kind of stupid.
Welcome to Book Two.
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