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[Edmond Dantès]

I posted these before and they may useful to anyone reading The Silmarillion.


Hierarchy of the Powers of Arda.

Eru Iluvatar (god)


Melkor the Rebeller (The most powerful of the angelic beings known as the Ainu, the equivalent of Lucifer)


Kings of the Valar:

Manwë Súlimo, King of the Valar
Ulmo, King of the Sea
Aulë, the Smith
Oromë Aldaron, the Great Rider
Mandos (Námo), Judge of the Dead
Irmo (Lórien), Master of Dreams and Desires
Tulkas Astaldo, Champion of Valinor

Queens of the Valar:

Varda Elentári, Queen of the Stars, wife of Manwë
Yavanna Kementári (Palùrien), Giver of Fruits, wife of Aulë
Nienna, Lady of Mercy
Estë the Gentle
Vairë the Weaver
Vána the Ever-young
Nessa the Dancer

The known Maiar:

Aiwendil (Radgast)
Alatar (One of the Blue Wizards)
Arien (The Vessel of the Sun, a fire spirit of the same kin as the Balrogs)
Curumo (Saruman)
Eonwe (The Herald of Manwe and the mightiest of the Maiar)
Gothmog (Lord of the Balrogs)
Ilmarë (Very close to Varda)
Melian (One of the wisest and mother of Luthien)
Olorin (Gandalf)
Osse (Rebelled initially but was forgiven by the Valar)
Pallando (The other Blue Wizard)
Salmar (A sort of sea siren spirit)
Sauron (Melkor's greatest servant and the second Dark Lord)
Tilion (The Vessel of the Moon)
Uinen (Osse's wife)

Unnamed Maiar:

Durin's Bane (The Balrog of Moria)
The other Balrogs who were under Melkor's service.


The Aratar (the highest of the Powers):

Manwë,
Varda
Ulmo
Yavanna
Aulë
Mandos
Nienna
Oromë



First Age Timeline.

In Valian years, which according to Tolkien were each roughly equivalent to ten Sun years.

1 Valar first enter Arda
1500 Tulkas enters Arda
1900 Valar set up the great Lamps
3400 Melkor begins to make Utumno
3450 Melkor destroys the Lamps
3500 The Two Trees are created


In Valian years.

1 The Two Trees are created
1000 Varda begins to make the great constellations
1050 Elves awaken
1085 Oromë meets the Elves
1090 Valar attack Morgoth
1099 Breaking of Utumno
1100 Binding of Melkor
1101 Valar summon the Quendi to Valinor
1102 Ingwë, Finwë and Elwë brought to Valinor
1104 Ingwë, Finwë and Elwë return to Cuiviénen
1105 Elves set out on the Great Journey
1115 Nandor abandon the March
1125 Vanyar and Noldor reach Beleriand
1128 Teleri reach Beleriand
1130 Elwë meets Melian
1132 Vanyar and Noldor leave Middle-earth
1133 Vanyar and Noldor reach Valinor
1140 Tirion completed. Ingwë leaves Tirion
1150 Olwë and other Teleri leave Middle-earth
1151 Grounding of Tol Eressëa
1152 Elwë returns to the Sindar
1161 Teleri reach Valinor
1165 The last Vanyar leave Tirion
1169 Birth of Fëanor
1170 Death of Míriel
1185 Marriage of Finwë and Indis
1190 Birth of Fingolfin
1200 Birth of Lúthien
1230 Birth of Finarfin
1250 Dwarves enter Beleriand. Fëanor creates a new alphabet for the Elves.
1280 Marriage of Finarfin and Eärwen
1300 Thingol builds Menegroth. Daeron invents the Runes. Birth of Turgon and of Finrod.
1330 Orcs enter Beleriand
1350 Nandor enter Beleriand
1362 Births of Aredhel and of Galadriel
1400 Melkor released
1449 Fëanor begins work on the Silmarils
1450 Fëanor completes the Silmarils
1490 Banishment of Fëanor
1492 Melkor visits Formenos
1495 Darkening of Valinor. Death of Finwë and flight of the Noldor. First Kinslaying.
1496 Doom of Mandos. Finarfin turns back.
1497 Morgoth attacks Beleriand. Fëanor reaches Middle-earth and burns the ships. Death of Fëanor. Capture of Maedhros.
1498 Maedhros sent to Thangorodrim
1500 Rising of the Moon and the Sun. Hiding of Valinor. Fingolfin reaches Middle-earth.


Years of the Sun.

1 Rising of the Moon and the Sun. Fingolfin reaches Middle-earth.
2 Fingolfin arrives in Mithrim
5 Fingon rescues Maedhros and the Noldor are reunited.
7 Sons of Fëanor leave Mithrim.
20 Fingolfin holds the Feast of Reuniting
52 Finrod begins to build Nargothrond
53 Turgon discovers the site of Gondolin
60 Dagor Aglareb. Morgoth invades Beleriand and is defeated.
64 Turgon begins the building of Gondolin
67 Thingol bans Quenya from Doriath
102 Nargothrond is completed
116 Gondolin is completed
150 Caranthir makes contact with the Dwarves
155 Morgoth attempts to attack Hithlum and is driven off
260 Glaurung invades Ard-galen and is repelled by Fingon
310 Finrod meets Bëor
312 Haladin enter Beleriand
313 People of Marach enter Beleriand
316 Aredhel encounters Eöl
320 Birth of Maeglin
355 Death of Bëor
369 Bereg leads some of the Edain back to the East
375 Haleth becomes chief of the Haladin
376 Haladin settle in Estolad
390 Haladin leave Estolad
400 Aredhel and Maeglin ride to Gondolin. Deaths of Aredhel and Eöl.
410 Boromir of the House of Bëor becomes lord of Ladros in Dorthonion
416 Fingolfin gives Dorlómin to Hador
420 Death of Haleth
432 Birth of Beren
441 Birth of Húrin
443 Birth of Morwen
444 Birth of Huor
455 Dagor Bragollach. Deaths of Angrod and Aegnor.
456 Death of Fingolfin
458 Morgoth attacks Brethil and is driven off with help from Doriath. Húrin and Huor visit Gondolin.
460 Death of Barahir
462 Morgoth attacks Hithlum and is driven off with help from Círdan
463 Easterlings enter Beleriand
464 Beren enters Doriath. Birth of Túrin
465 Beren comes to Nargothrond. Death of Finrod.
466 Beren and Lúthien take the Silmaril
467 First deaths of Beren and Lúthien
468 Maedhros begins to construct the Union against Morgoth
469 Maedhros retakes Dorthonion. Beren and Lúthien return briefly to Doriath.
470 Birth of Dior Eluchíl
472 Nirnaeth Arnediad. Death of Fingon. Capture of Húrin. Birth of Tuor. Morwen sends Túrin to Doriath.
473 Birth of Nienor. Túrin reaches Doriath. Morgoth attacks and devastates the Havens of Círdan.
484 Túrin leaves Doriath
487 Beleg joins Túrin’s band
488 Tuor captured by Easterlings
489 Death of Beleg
490 Túrin comes to Nargothrond
491 Tuor escapes from the Easterlings
494 Morwen and Nienor come to Doriath
495 Fall of Nargothrond and deaths of Orodreth and Finduilas. Orcs attack Brethil. Tuor leaves Hithlum.
496 Tuor comes to Gondolin. Morwen and Nienor leave Doriath. Túrin meets Nienor.
498 Túrin and Nienor marry
499 Deaths of Glaurung, Nienor and Túrin
500 Morgoth releases Húrin
501 Death of Morwen
502 Marriage of Tuor and Idril. Húrin kills Mîm. Húrin comes to Doriath.
503 Death of Thingol. Birth of Eärendil. Birth of Elwing.
504 Dior becomes king of Doriath
506 Second Kinslaying and death of Dior
509 Maeglin captured by Morgoth
510 Fall of Gondolin and death of Turgon
511 Survivors of Gondolin reach Sirion
532 Birth of Elros and Elrond
538 Third Kinslaying
542 Eärendil reaches Valinor
545 Host of Valinor lands
587 Destruction of Angband. Maedhros and Maglor seize the Silmarils. Death of Maedhros.
590 Morgoth thrust into the Void. End of the First Age.

 

[Neffarias_Bredd]

I have a question: How strong is Tolkien's poetry? I haven't read much poetry and have no idea how technically impressive his poems are, or how well received they are. Can anyone here comment on that?

 

[Loxley]

Studying Tolkien for fun is quite the pleasure.

Definitely I'm enjoying this to the point where I'll probably do the same thing whenever I revisit The Histories and The Lord of the Rings again.

I posted these before and they may useful to anyone reading The Silmarillion.


*snip*

I'm going to keep this in mind as I continue on, even though I'm writing as much as I can, I'm bound to miss something.

 

[Altazor]

I'm trying to remedy that problem while I re-read the Silmarillion, since I have the short-term memory of a chicken. My solution is to simply take notes while I reading, which I haven't done for a book since high school. Feels weird to be doing it for recreation, but I'm enjoying it.

*snip*

And yes, I am very much aware of the irony of being an artist with terrible handwriting

that's great, Loxley! I think taking those notes is really useful for reading and comprehending the Silmarillion, especially considering a lot of the book just throws hundreds of names and terms to you and assumes you're familiar with them all.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

I have a question: How strong is Tolkien's poetry? I haven't read much poetry and have no idea how technically impressive his poems are, or how well received they are. Can anyone here comment on that?

His shorter poems featuring in the main published texts are of a good standard.

Tolkien however really comes into his own with the extended poems in The Lays of Beleriand. The 'epics' featured in this book are very reminscent of the likes of The Iliad, Paradise Lost etc.

There's also a new extended poem about the legend of Arthur that's due to be released in May.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

An excerpt of The Lay of Leithian from The Lays of Beleriand.

A king there was in days of old:
ere Men yet walked upon the mould
his power was reared in caverns' shade,
his hand was over glen and glade.
Of leaves his crown, his mantle green,
his silver lances long and keen;
the starlight in his shield was caught,
ere moon was made or sun was wrought.

In after-days, when to the shore
of Middle-earth from Valinor
the Elven-hosts in might returned,
and banners flew and beacons burned,
when kings of Eldamar went by
in strength of war, beneath the sky
then still his silver trumpets blew
when sun was young and moon was new.
Afar then in Beleriand,
in Doriath's beleaguered land,
King Thingol sat on guarded throne
in many-pillared halls of stone:
there beryl, pearl, and opal pale,
and metal wrought like fishes' mail,
buckler and corslet, axe and sword,
and gleaming spears were laid in hoard:
all these he had and counted small,
for dearer than all wealth in hall,
and fairer than are born to Men,
a daughter had he, Lúthien.

Such lissom limbs no more shall run
on the green earth beneath the sun;
so fair a maid no more shall be
from dawn to dusk, from sun to sea.
Her robe was blue as summer skies,
but grey as evening were her eyes;
her mantle sewn with lilies fair,
but dark as shadow was her hair.
Her feet were swift as bird on wing,
her laughter merry as the spring;
the slender willow, the bowing reed,
the fragrance of a flowering mead,
the light upon the leaves of trees,
the voice of water, more than these
her beauty was and blissfulness,
her glory and her loveliness.

She dwelt in the enchanted land
while elven-might yet held in hand
the woven woods of Doriath:
none ever thither found the path
unbidden, none the forest-eaves
dared pass, or stir the listening leaves.
To North there lay a land of dread,
Dungortheb where all ways were dead
in hills of shadow bleak and cold;
beyond was Deadly Nightshade's hold
in Taur-nu-Fuin's fastness grim,
where sun was sick and moon was dim.
To South the wide earth unexplored;
to West the ancient Ocean roared,
unsailed and shoreless, wide and wild;
to East in peaks of blue were piled,
in silence folded, mist-enfurled,
the mountains of the outer world.
amid the Thousand Cavers tall
of Menegroth as king abode:
to him there led no mortal road.
Beside him sat his deathless queen,
fair Melian, and wove unseen
nets of enchantment round his throne,
and spells were laid on tree and stone:
sharp was his sword and high his helm,
the king of beech and oak and elm.
When grass was green and leaves were long,
when finch and mavis sang their song,
there under bough and under sun
in shadow and in light would run
fair Lúthien the elven-maid,
dancing in dell and grassy glade.

When sky was clear and stars were keen,
then Daeron with his fingers lean,
as daylight melted into eve,
a trembling music sweet would weave
of flutes of silver, thin and clear
for Lúthien, the maiden dear.

There mirth there was and voices bright;
there eve was peace and morn was light;
there jewel gleamed and silver wan
and gold on graceful fingers shone,
and elanor and niphredil
bloomed in the grass unfading still,
while the endless years of Elven-land
rolled over far Beleriand,
until a day of doom befell,
as still the elven-harpers tell.

 

[Neffarias_Bredd]

An excerpt of The Lay of Leithian from The Lays of Beleriand.

A king there was in days of old:
ere Men yet walked upon the mould
his power was reared in caverns' shade,
his hand was over glen and glade.
Of leaves his crown, his mantle green,
his silver lances long and keen;
the starlight in his shield was caught,
ere moon was made or sun was wrought.

In after-days, when to the shore
of Middle-earth from Valinor
the Elven-hosts in might returned,
and banners flew and beacons burned,
when kings of Eldamar went by
in strength of war, beneath the sky
then still his silver trumpets blew
when sun was young and moon was new.
Afar then in Beleriand,
in Doriath's beleaguered land,
King Thingol sat on guarded throne
in many-pillared halls of stone:
there beryl, pearl, and opal pale,
and metal wrought like fishes' mail,
buckler and corslet, axe and sword,
and gleaming spears were laid in hoard:
all these he had and counted small,
for dearer than all wealth in hall,
and fairer than are born to Men,
a daughter had he, Lúthien.

Such lissom limbs no more shall run
on the green earth beneath the sun;
so fair a maid no more shall be
from dawn to dusk, from sun to sea.
Her robe was blue as summer skies,
but grey as evening were her eyes;
her mantle sewn with lilies fair,
but dark as shadow was her hair.
Her feet were swift as bird on wing,
her laughter merry as the spring;
the slender willow, the bowing reed,
the fragrance of a flowering mead,
the light upon the leaves of trees,
the voice of water, more than these
her beauty was and blissfulness,
her glory and her loveliness.

She dwelt in the enchanted land
while elven-might yet held in hand
the woven woods of Doriath:
none ever thither found the path
unbidden, none the forest-eaves
dared pass, or stir the listening leaves.
To North there lay a land of dread,
Dungortheb where all ways were dead
in hills of shadow bleak and cold;
beyond was Deadly Nightshade's hold
in Taur-nu-Fuin's fastness grim,
where sun was sick and moon was dim.
To South the wide earth unexplored;
to West the ancient Ocean roared,
unsailed and shoreless, wide and wild;
to East in peaks of blue were piled,
in silence folded, mist-enfurled,
the mountains of the outer world.
amid the Thousand Cavers tall
of Menegroth as king abode:
to him there led no mortal road.
Beside him sat his deathless queen,
fair Melian, and wove unseen
nets of enchantment round his throne,
and spells were laid on tree and stone:
sharp was his sword and high his helm,
the king of beech and oak and elm.
When grass was green and leaves were long,
when finch and mavis sang their song,
there under bough and under sun
in shadow and in light would run
fair Lúthien the elven-maid,
dancing in dell and grassy glade.

When sky was clear and stars were keen,
then Daeron with his fingers lean,
as daylight melted into eve,
a trembling music sweet would weave
of flutes of silver, thin and clear
for Lúthien, the maiden dear.

There mirth there was and voices bright;
there eve was peace and morn was light;
there jewel gleamed and silver wan
and gold on graceful fingers shone,
and elanor and niphredil
bloomed in the grass unfading still,
while the endless years of Elven-land
rolled over far Beleriand,
until a day of doom befell,
as still the elven-harpers tell.

I really enjoyed this

 

[Edmond Dantès]

I really enjoyed this

The Lays are great, it's a shame he never had a chance to fully complete them.

Along with the abandoned version of the Legendarium, the incomplete Lays are what I lament the most.

 

[Megalosaro]

What exactly are the Aratar. Is it simply the greatest amongst the Valar, both male and female?

 

[Edmond Dantès]

What exactly are the Aratar. Is it simply the greatest amongst the Valar, both male and female?

Exactly that. The one's with the most authority.

 

[Mumei]

I started The Silmarillion today. I was a bit hesitant still because over the years people have made it seem a bit difficult to approach but I just love it - the cosmology is fascinating. But thank Eru for the Index or I would be lost at times.

 

[WanderingWind]

I started The Silmarillion today. I was a bit hesitant still because over the years people have made it seem a bit difficult to approach but I just love it - the cosmology is fascinating. But thank Eru for the Index or I would be lost at times.

Warms my heart to see.

 

[jdouglas]

Return of the king was a fuckin' amazing book; only time I've had any feeling for a fictional character was when Merry was with Frodo fighting Shelob (well...maybe I've had one with the protagonist from "notes from underground" but I don't really care to examine those emotions).

 

[B-Dubs]

Return of the king was a fuckin' amazing book; only time I've had any feeling for a fictional character was when Merry was with Frodo fighting Shelob (well...maybe I've had one with the protagonist from "notes from underground" but I don't really care to examine those emotions).

Merry? I think you mean Sam. Merry was with the others.

 

[Mumei]

Warms my heart to see.

I actually like it better than either The Hobbit or The Lord of the Rings, though I suspect that whenever I reread either of those having read this will make it a more pleasurable experience.

 

[qindarka]

I actually like it better than either The Hobbit or The Lord of the Rings, though I suspect that whenever I reread either of those having read this will make it a more pleasurable experience.

Same here. The Hobbit and LOTR just seem so small scale after reading the Silmarillion. Also helps that I think the prose is better.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

I actually like it better than either The Hobbit or The Lord of the Rings, though I suspect that whenever I reread either of those having read this will make it a more pleasurable experience.

I 've regarded it as Tolkien's greatest work for a long time now. I'm glad to see that you've taken to it. The best is yet to come with the two most fleshed out tales; Of Beren and Luthien and Of Túrin Turambar.

What you must remember though is that The Silmarillion as Tolkien intended it, as a companion piece to The Lord of the Rings is lost. Christopher when consolidating and editing the various manuscripts realised that vast chunks were missing and he did his best to fill in the gaps.

Another thing to note is this; The Silmarillion is an evolution of the original abandoned Legendarium, which can now be found in The Book of Lost Tales. Funnily enough, the earlier chapters dealing with the Ainur are much more detailed and in my opinion superior to what is found in The Silmarillion. The Valar in particular are far more humanized than the angelic beings in the latter mythos. Also included are two additional Valar (Makar and Meássë) in the original pantheon, who are far less noble, volatile 'war gods' effectively.

Well worth reading after The Silmarillion.

 

[xenist]

Return of the king was a fuckin' amazing book; only time I've had any feeling for a fictional character was when Merry was with Frodo fighting Shelob (well...maybe I've had one with the protagonist from "notes from underground" but I don't really care to examine those emotions).

Probably my favorite passage in all of Tolkien's books:

Then out of the blackness in his mind he thought that he heard Dernhelm speaking; yet now the voice seemed strange, recalling some other voice that he had known.

'Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!'

A cold voice answered: 'Come not between the Nazgûl and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye.'

A sword rang as it was drawn. 'Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may.'

'Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!'

Then Merry heard of all sounds in that hour the strangest. It seemed that Dernhelm laughed, and the clear voice was like the ring of steel. 'But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Éowyn I am, Éomund's daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him.'

The winged creature screamed at her, but the Ringwraith made no answer, and was silent, as if in sudden doubt. Very amazement for a moment conquered Merry's fear. He opened his eyes and the blackness was lifted from them. There some paces from him sat the great beast, and all seemed dark about it, and above it loomed the Nazgûl Lord like a shadow of despair. A little to the left facing them stood she whom he had called Dernhelm. But the helm of her secrecy, had fallen from her, and her bright hair, released from its bonds, gleamed with pale gold upon her shoulders. Her eyes grey as the sea were hard and fell, and yet tears were on her cheek. A sword was in her hand, and she raised her shield against the horror of her enemy's eyes. Éowyn it was, and Dernhelm also. For into Merry's mind flashed the memory of the face that he saw at the riding from Dunharrow: the face of one that goes seeking death, having no hope. Pity filled his heart and great wonder, and suddenly the slow-kindled courage of his race awoke. He clenched his hand. She should not die, so fair, so desperate. At least she should not die alone, unaided.

The face of their enemy was not turned towards him, but still he hardly dared to move, dreading lest the deadly eyes should fall on him. Slowly, slowly he began to crawl aside; but the Black Captain, in doubt and malice intent upon the woman before him, heeded him no more than a worm in the mud. Suddenly the great beast beat its hideous wings, and the wind of them was foul. Again it leaped into the air, and then swiftly fell down upon Éowyn, shrieking, striking with beak and claw. Still she did not blench: maiden of the Rohirrim, child of kings, slender but as a steel-blade, fair but terrible. A swift stroke she dealt, skilled and deadly. The outstretched neck she clove asunder, and the hewn head fell like a stone. Backward she sprang as the huge shape crashed to ruin, vast wings outspread, crumpled on the earth; and with its fall the shadow passed away. A light fell about her, and her hair shone in the sunrise.

Out of the wreck rose the Black Rider, tall and threatening, towering above her. With a cry of hatred that stung the very ears like venom he let fall his mace. Her shield was shivered in many pieces, and her arm was broken; she stumbled to her knees. He bent over her like a cloud, and his eyes glittered; he raised his mace to kill. But suddenly he too stumbled forward with a cry of bitter pain, and his stroke went wide, driving into the ground. Merry's sword had stabbed him from behind, shearing through the black mantle, and passing up beneath the hauberk had pierced the sinew behind his mighty knee.

'Éowyn! Éowyn!' cried Merry. Then tottering, struggling up, with her last strength she drove her sword between crown and mantle, as the great shoulders bowed before her. The sword broke sparkling into many shards. The crown rolled away with a clang. Éowyn fell forward upon her fallen foe. But lo! the mantle and hauberk were empty. Shapeless they lay now on the ground, torn and tumbled; and a cry went up into the shuddering air, and faded to a shrill wailing, passing with the wind, a voice bodiless and thin that died, and was swallowed up, and was never heard again in that age of this world.

So good.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

Probably my favorite passage in all of Tolkien's books:



So good.

Love Eowyn's line.

 

[agrajag]

OK, a couple of questions for Edmond and any other Middle Earth expert.

What exactly was the end game of the One Ring getting back in Sauron's hands? Would he instantaneously be able to multiply his armies x10? Physically manifest himself and take part in battle?

Another question has to do with the three Elven rings. I seem to recall in LOTR a statement that if Sauron gets back the One, the Three Rings would fall under his control. How come they weren't under his control before when he did wield the One? I'm probably remembering wrong though, haven't read TLOTR in a while.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

OK, a couple of questions for Edmond and any other Middle Earth expert.

What exactly was the end game of the One Ring getting back in Sauron's hands? Would he instantaneously be able to multiply his armies x10? Physically manifest himself and take part in battle?

Another question has to do with the three Elven rings. I seem to recall in LOTR a statement that if Sauron gets back the One, the Three Rings would fall under his control. How come they weren't under his control before when he did wield the One? I'm probably remembering wrong though, haven't read TLOTR in a while.

1. Sauron lost no power through the loss of the One, his power in Middle-earth remained constant while the One was in existence. With the One his power would be amplified. That was one of the motivating factors for creating it. With the One he would have been able to exert more control over his host, maybe even have been able to influence (not control) other fell beings that Melkor had a hand in corrupting or originally engineering. The Cold Drakes, the other Balrog (long forgotten after The War of Wrath), even Smaug before his death. These would have bolstered his host a great deal and he'd be replicating what his Master (he was always following in Melkor's footsteps) did by not putting all his faith in Orcs/Goblins. In terms of battle, Sauron knew might of arms was a weakness of his and anything that aided him in rectifying this was a great asset.

2. The Elven Lords/Lady realised Sauron's intentions as soon as he put on the One. The minds of Elves (the greatest among them in particular) are far more 'in tune' if you will with the Ainur, far more than the later beings that inhabited Middle-earth, especially Men who were far removed from the Ainur. The Rings of Power were just a conduit that enabled him to exert his will over the minds of those wearing them, it wasn't the Rings he controlled, rather the fëa/hröa of the beings in possession of the Rings.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

There's a very good table/chart that explains Sauron's power levels. I'll post it later.

 

[xenist]

With the One Ring in his posession Sauron would have been so powerful that all resistance to him would be trivial. Aragorn compared to the people he was throwing around like toys in the beggining of FOTR was as powerless as a baby. He could literally walk up to Minas Tirith and take it by himself. Add to that being able to exert his will upon every evil thing in Middle Earth.

As for the Elven rings their bearers are too powerful for him to control. Even with the human lords that held the seven it took a lot of time before they were under his control. If I remember the Silmarillion correctly the threee rings were actually made by the Elves alone and without his help as a means to fight his power because the wise among the Elves realized his plan. They were tied to the One Ring because they were made with Saurons art but not controlled by it becuase he didn't have a hand in making them. The Ring's destruction meant that they were rendered powerless, though.

 

[Kiraly]

I was plowing through the Fellowship and the Two Towers in a matter of days on my Kindle, did not even finish a tenth of the Return of the King though

I hate it when that happens.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

With the One Ring in his posession Sauron would have been so powerful that all resistance to him would be trivial. Aragorn compared to the people he was throwing around like toys in the beggining of FOTR was as powerless as a baby. He could literally walk up to Minas Tirith and take it by himself. Add to that being able to exert his will upon every evil thing in Middle Earth.

As for the Elven rings their bearers are too powerful for him to control. If I remember the Silmarillion correctly hey were actually made by the Elves alone and without his help as a means to fight his power because the wise among the Elves realized his plan. They were tied to the One Ring because they were made with Saurons art but not controlled by it becuase he didn't have a hand in making them. The Ring's destruction meant that they were rendered powerless, though.

I wouldn't agree with Sauron been an unstoppable force. He was never a mighty warrior Ainu like Eonwe or Tulkas or even Melkor, his might lay in other areas. He was still incarnate and incarnate beings in Tolkien's Legendarium could be hurt. A host of the mightiest Elves led by Glorfindel (who was almost an equal to the Maiar after his return) would have dealt with Sauron long before he reached Minas Tirith.

 

[xenist]

I wouldn't agree with Sauron been an unstoppable force. He was never a mighty warrior Ainu like Eonwe or Tulkas or even Melkor, his might lay in other areas. He was still incarnate and incarnate beings in Tolkien's Legendarium could be hurt. A host of the mightiest Elves led by Glorfindel (who was almost an equal to the Maiar after his return) would have dealt with Sauron long before he reached Minas Tirith.

The concept of the gradual lessening of beings that started with Hesiod is central to Tolkien's philosophy. I'll give you Glorfindel but other than him Elrond, Galadriel and Gandalf, every other living thing in Middle Earth would just be grass for Sauron to trample on along the way. And I doubt if they alone would have been much of a challenge if he should choose to take corporeal form again.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

The concept of the gradual lessening of beings that started with Hesiod is central to Tolkien's philosophy. I'll give you Glorfindel but other than him Elrond, Galadriel and Gandalf, every other living thing in Middle Earth would just be grass for Sauron to trample on along the way. And Ig doubt if they alone would have been much of a challenge if he should choose to take corporeal form again.

You greatly exaggerate Sauron's power with the One and power levels in general in the Legendarium. The same principle would also apply to Sauron (Maiar in general lessened over time) who was greatly dimished himself.

Two warriors, an Elf Lord not far removed from Elrond and a Numenorean King battled Sauron in combat and weakened him enough to allow Isildur to finally dispose of his second raiment.

An army of Elves would deal with his third lesser raiment.

No Ainu ever intentionally forsook their raiment, why would Sauron knowing how diffcult it was to forge a new one.

 

[Jake Tower]

Can you guys please use indent format for long quotes?

 

[Lufiaddict]

If Sauron recovered his ring, I suppose Galadriel and Elrond would have had to stop using their ring immediately, which would mean that their realm, Lothlórien and Rivendell, would have lost the magical protection they provided, am I right? (Oh, Gandalf would also have had to stop using his ring).

 

[Edmond Dantès]

If Sauron recovered his ring, I suppose Galadriel and Elrond would have had to stop using their ring immediately, which would mean that their realm, Lothlórien and Rivendell, would have lost the magical protection they provided, am I right? (Oh, Gandalf would also have had to remove his ring).

Yes, and that would have accelerated the dominant theme of industrialization as the Elves were stemming the tide of progress.

 

[Raist]

For the record, I've always just been the camp that prefers to think of Glorfindell of Rivendell and Glorfindel of Gondolin as the same guy.

Didn't the first one die fighting the lord of balrogs?

edit: by first one I mean chronologically.

 

[Lufiaddict]

Yes, and that would have accelerated the dominant theme of industrialization as the Elves were stemming the tide of progress.

That was the saddest part of the ending for me (more than the departure of Frodo). The fact that magic and fantasy were leaving Middle Earth. End of an era indeed.

When things around me slowly change in ways that don't please me and I can't do anything about it, I often think about the Rings losing their power, about Galadriel and Elrond passing West, ...

 

[Edmond Dantès]

Didn't the first one die fighting the lord of balrogs?

edit: by first one I mean chronologically.

Ecthelion died fighting Gothmog, Lord of the Balrogs. Glorfindel fought another one under the service of Gothmog.

That was the saddest part of the ending for me (more than the departure of Frodo). The fact that magic and fantasy were leaving Middle Earth. End of an era indeed.

When things around me slowly change in ways that don't please me and I can't do anything about it, I often think about the Rings losing their power, about Galadriel and Elrond passing West, ...

It meant much to Tolkien as it reflected what was happening during his era. He lamented the diminishment of the countryside and was wary of industrialization.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

The table.

Not without its flaws though as it fails to take into account the diminishment of Sauron due to the reforging of new raiments and the general diminishment of Maiar.

The 'Morgoth element' isn't convincing either.

 

[Lufiaddict]

It meant much to Tolkien as it reflected what was happening during his era. He lamented the diminishment of the countryside and was wary of industrialization.

"This is a fallen world", in more than one way.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

Thought it would be convenient to consolidate the Hobbit history part of the film OT with this thread.

'Hobbit Origins'

One of the recurring questions Tolkien faced from the first publication of The Hobbit to the end of his life was ‘where did you get the name “hobbits” from? While there seems little doubt that he was telling the truth when he said he simply made it up, the issue was confused in the mid-1970s by the discovery, in a nineteenth-century collection of North Country folklore, of the word ‘hobbit’ among a list of faires, spirits, creatures from classical mythology, and other imaginary beings. The discovery was made by Katharine Briggs, the leading expert of her time on traditional fairy folklore who reprinted the list in her 'A Dictionary of Fairies: Hobgoblins, Brownies, Bogies, and Other Supernatural Creatures'. Briggs herself did not comment on the appearance of hobbits in the list, but her discovery was soon picked up on by an outside reader for the OED and thence reported in various newspapers (including most notably Philip Howard’s piece ‘Tracking the Hobbit Down to Earth’, which appeared in The Times on 31st May 1977), but for the most part without crediting Briggs for her role in the discovery. The list itself has appeared in a miscellany published by the Folklore Society, the full title of which was 'The Dehham Tracts: A Collection of Folklore by Michael Aislabie Denham, and reprinted from the original tracts and pamphlets printed by Mr Denham between 1846 and 1859. Edited by Dr James Hardy', this had been issued in two volumes in 1892 and 1895. Despite its apparent plausibility, it is highly unlikely that the Denham Tracts was actually Tolkien’s source for The Hobbit. How then do you explain this coincidence? For one thing, English folklore traditions about ‘hobs’ played a part in Tolkien’s creation, including the name, and since this is the case it is not so surprising to find that Tolkien’s invention, his own personal variant, can be matched by an actual example from historical record, albeit an obscure one.

Tolkien’s gift for nomenclature was posited on creating words that sounded like real ones, creating matches of sound and sense that felt as if they were actual words drawn from the vast body of lore that had somehow failed to be otherwise recorded. That his invention should match actual obscure historical words was inevitable provided he did his work well enough, as is also attested by the accidental resemblance of his place-name Gondor (inspired by the actual historic word ‘ond’ (stone), which had once been thought to be a fragment of a lost pre-IndoEuropean language of the British isles) to both the real world Gondar (a city in Northern Ethiopia, also sometimes spelled Gonder, once that country’s capital) and the imaginary Gondour (a utopia invented by Mark Twain in the story ‘The Curious Republic of Gondour). It is a tribute to Tolkien’s skill with word-building that his invented hobbit should prove to have indeed had a real-world predecessor, though Tolkien himself probably never knew of it.​

Gandalf the Wizard

Gandalf the wizard in The Hobbit, later developed into Gandalf the Grey of The Lord of the Rings. One of the most important characters in the story, but it is difficult to tell in his first appearance how much the later character was present in Tolkien’s mind in The Hobbit and how much he developed in the course of Tolkien’s writings, partly because the character in The Hobbit is deliberately kept somewhat mysterious. Certainly, the phase ‘Gandalf the Grey’ is never used in The Hobbit, being part of many layers of later accretions the character picked up over the years. Gandalf in The Hobbit in contrast is never associated with any one colour, indeed, the first description of him offers quite a variety; blue hat, grey cloak, silver scarf white beard and black boots. Gandalf is an ennobled character in The Lord of the Rings, in comparison to the wandering wizard who flits in and out of the narrative of The Hobbit.

This Odinic figure is an angel in incarnated form, a Maia, one of the five Istari, bearer of the Ring of Fire, whose other names are Mithrandir and Olorin, who passes through death and returns as Gandalf the White, the Enemy of Sauron, altogether a much more dignified, powerful, and political figure than the ‘little old man’ Bilbo meets on his doorstep one day in the quiet of the world. In the essay on the Istari, Tolkien states that they were supposed at first by those that had dealings with them to be men who had acquired lore and arts by long secret study. However, it is by no means clear whether or not Tolkien himself was of the same opinion when he first wrote The Hobbit. Like so much else in the story, Gandalf’s nature is ambiguous, no doubt deliberately; so he might be human, or he might be something more. If we only had The Hobbit itself to go by, we should certainly have no reason to doubt that he was what he appeared, ‘a little old man’.

However, The Hobbit does not stand alone and once viewed in the context of The Silmarillion material, Tolkien’s other tales and its own sequel, the case for 'Hobbit Gandalf' being more than human grows somewhat stronger. If 'Hobbit Gandalf' and similar figures appearing in Tolkien’s other writings such as Roverdandom’s Artaxerxes are not human, is it possible to determine where they fit within the context of Tolkien’s legendarium? The key figure in answering that question is Tuvo the wizard, a figure who evolved into Tu the fay and eventually Thû the Necromancer. Tuvo is emphatically neither elf or human (in fact he plays a part in the discovery and awakening of the first humans in Middle-earth) but rather a fay, the catch-all term Tolkien used at the time for beings created before the world and who came to inhabit it, including the Maiar. Thus, from Tolkien’s very first wizard, who existed in the unfinished ‘Gilfanon’s Tale at least a decade before 'Hobbit Gandalf' first came on the scene, can already be found the conceptual precedent for Tolkien’s much later bald statement that ‘Gandalf is an angel’ or at least in the case of 'Hobbit Gandalf', a supernatural being incarnated within the world, neither human nor mortal but very human in his behaviour and character.​

Gollum

One of Tolkien's greatest characters makes his auspicious debut in The Hobbit. The most surprising thing usually overlooked by readers, is that Gollum is clearly not a hobbit in the original edition of The Hobbit nor the earlier drafts - "I don't know where he came from or what he was" says the narrator, and there's no reason not to think he speaks for Tolkien and take him for his word. It's not clear in the drafts whether Gollum is one of the 'original owners' who predate the goblins, 'still there in odd corners' or one of the 'other things' that 'sneaked in from outside' in his territory within the Misty Mountains. But in any case, all the details of the description argue against his being hobbit-kin. Unlike Bilbo, the hobbit, Gollum is 'dark as darkness', with long fingers, large webbed feet that flap when he walks (unlike the silent hobbit) and 'long eyes', huge and pale, that not only protrude 'like telescopes' but actually project light. Small wonder that early illustrators like Horus Engels depict a huge, monstrous creature rather than the small, emaciated figure Tolkien eventually envisioned. Not until he came to write The Lord of the Rings, and forced himself to confront all the unanswered questions in The Hobbit that might be exploited for further adventures, did Tolkien have the inspiration to make Gollum a hobbit. He subsequently very skillfully inserted a new idea into the earlier book through the addition of small details in the initial description of the creature. Thus the readings in the third edition (1966), with interpolations highlighted in italics:

"Deep down here by the dark water lives old Gollum, a small slimy creature... as dark as darkness, except for two big round pale eyes in his thin face.

Just as Tolkien changed his mind, or rather, delved more deeply into the subject in the course of writing The Lord of the Rings before finally committing himself as to Gollum's origin, so too he changed the character's personality in the post-publication revisions. For Gollum is far more honorable in the first draft and first edition than he later appears. He is perfectly willing, ever eager, to eat Bilbo, should the hobbit lose, but abides by the results: "Bilbo need not have been frightened. For one thing the Gollum had learned long long ago was never to cheat..."

One should also note that Gollum's distinctive speech pattern, his hissing, overuse of sibilants, and peculiarity of referring to himself in the plural was present from the very first, although greatly emphasized by revisions prior to publication. As you might expect, though, it is somewhat more erratic in the draft, particularly in the matter of pronouns, thus he at first refers to Bilbo several times as 'he' before sliding into the depersonalized 'it', and once as 'you'. Similarly, he refers to himself as 'ye' at one point rather than his usual 'we/us'. Interestingly enough, it is quite clear that 'my precious' originally applied only to Gollum himself and the not ring; Gollum 'always spoke to himself not to you', usually in first person plural, yet he refers to the the ring as 'it' ("bless us splash us, we haven't the present we promised, and we haven't got it for ourselves"). Some of these aberrant elements remained in the published text, even through Tolkien's careful revisions of 1947 and in his recording of the Gollum-episode in 1952 (released originally as J.R.R Tolkien reads and sings his The Hobbit and The Fellowship of the Ring and now available from Harper Audio as part of the J.R.R Tolkien Audio Collection).

The best description of Gollum comes in an unpublished commentary Tolkien made regarding Pauline Baynes' depiction of various characters from The Lord of the Rings in the headpiece and tailpiece to her 'Map of Middle-earth'. While Tolkien's fondness for Baynes' earlier work on Tolkien's Legendarium is evident, he disliked this piece so much that he wrote an essay critiquing her attempt in which he describes each member of the Fellowship as he pictured them, an invaluable aid to any future illustrator of his work. In this he dismissed her Gollum as reminiscent of 'the Michelin tyre man' and included the following description of Gollum as he ultimately envisioned him:

"Gollum was according to Gandalf one of the riverside hobbit people and therefore in origin a member of a small variety of the human race, although he became deformed during his long inhabiting of the dark lake. His long hands are therefore more of less right. Not his feet. They are exaggerated. They are described as webby, like a swan's, but had prehensile toes. But he was very thin, emaciated, not plump and rubbery; he had for his size a large head and a long thin neck, very large eyes (protuberant), and thin lank hair... He is often said to be dark or black where he was in moonlight.

Gollum was never naked. He had a pocket... He evidently had black garments, like the famished skeleton of some child of Men, its ragged garment still clinging to it, its long arms and legs almost bone-white and bone-thin. His skin was white no doubt with a pallor increased by dwelling long in the dark, and later by hunger. He remained a human being, not an animal or a mere bogey, even if deformed in mind and body: an object of disgust, but also pity to the deep sighted, such as Frodo had become. There is no need to wonder how he came by clothes or replaced them; any consideration of the tale will show that he had plenty of oppurtunities by theft, or charity (as of the Wood-elves), throughout his life". - From The Bodleian Department of Western Manuscripts, Tolkien Papers, A61 folders 1-31.​

Magic Rings

The most important point of connection between The Hobbit and its sequel The Lord of the Rings, is the ring itself. Just as Hobbits, wizards and the whole setting in Middle-earth were transformed for the more ambitious requirements of the later book, so too did the ring. For Bilbo’s ring is not the same as Frodo’s in its nature nor its powers, although the alteration was so smoothly done, with such subtlety and skill, that few readers grasp the extent of the change; many who read or re-read The Hobbit after The Lord of the Rings unconsciously import more sinister associations for the ring into the earlier book than the story itself supports. It is important to remember that Tolkien did not just expand the ring’s effects for the sequel; he actually altered them.

Tolkien’s source for the ring has been much debated. His exact source will probably never be known for the simple reason that he probably didn’t have one in the sense of a single direct model. Magical rings are, after all, common in both literature and folklore, among the most famous being Aladdin’s genie ring, Odin’s Draupnir and the cursed Ring of the Nibelungs, none of which have the power to make their wearers invisible. Similarly, magical items that make one invisible are so common that 'Stith Thompson’s Motif-Index of Folk Literature' has three full pages listing various forms such an item may take; a feather or herb, a belt or cap, a sword or jewel or helmet, pills or a salve, a wand or staff or ring, a mirror or boots or stone or ashes, or any number of stranger means. The combination of these two motifs, however are surprisingly rare; of the vast number of items that confer invisibility, and the huge number of magical rings, there are surprisingly few rings of invisibility before Tolkien popularized the idea.

Of the small number of distinct rings of invisibility in five distinct works - one classical (Plato’s Ring of Gyges), one medieval (the ring in ‘The Lady of the Fountain’ from the Mabinogion ), one renaissance (the Ring of Angelica from Ariosto’s ‘Orlando Furioso’), one from a literary fairy tale of the Enlightenment (Fenelon’s ‘The Enchanted Ring’ found in Andrew Lang’s collection ‘The Green Fairy Book’) and one from a reconstructed folk tale of the Romantic era (the ring in Kreutzwald’s ‘The Dragon of the North’ found now in ‘The Yellow Fairy Book’ ) – the one likeliest to have influenced Tolkien in The Hobbit is Owein’s ring in ‘The Lady of the Fountain’ ( “Take this ring and put it on thy finger, and put this stone in thy hand and close thy fist over the stone; as long as thou conceal it, it will conceal thee too… And Owein did everything the maiden bade him… But when they came to look for him they saw nothing… And that vexed them. And Owein slipped away from their midst”). It seems very likely, however, that both Plato’s account and perhaps Fenelon’s as well contributed something to the One Ring as Tolkien developed it in The Lord of the Rings, never forgetting, however that the primary influence on Frodo’s ring is in fact The Hobbit itself; here as so often, Tolkien is his own main source. Doubtless, other rings of invisibility exist, but no ring exactly like Bilbo’s has been discovered and it seems likely that is because it was Tolkien’s own invention, giving his hero an edge to offset his small size and lack of martial experience and given limitations because that improved the challenges the hobbit would face, creating a better story.​

Dwarves

In their earlier appearances in Tolkien’s tales, the dwarves had always been portrayed as an evil people, allies of goblins, mercenaries of Morgoth, pillagers of one of the great elven kingdoms. Thus their characterization in The Hobbit is totally at variance with what is said and shown of them in the old legends. And the break is both sudden and complete: no intermediate stages prepared the way. For them to be treated sympathetically as heroes of the new story is nothing short of amazing: no less surprising than if a company of goblin wolf-riders had ridden up to Bag-End seeking a really first-class burglar. It is difficult to pinpoint exactly where the dwarves entered the mythology, but it was sometime during the Lost Tales period (1917-1920). They played a major role in one of the tales, ‘The Nauglafring: The Necklace of the Dwarves’ and are mentioned in passing in three others; ‘The Tale of Tinuviel’, ‘Turambar and the Foaloke’ and the unfinished ‘Gilfanon’s Tale’. Throughout these early stories they are viewed exclusively from an unflattering elvish perspective, one best conveyed by an entry in the Gnomish Lexicon, where the Goldogrin/Gnomish word nauglafel is glossed as ‘dwarf-natured’, i.e.mean, avaricious - (Parma Eldalamberon XI. 59).

The Tale of Turambar’s portrayal of Mim the Fatherless, the first dwarf of note in the Legendarium, establishes Tolkien’s dwarves as guardians of vast treasure hoards as well as the originators of inimical curses. The image of ‘an old misshapen dwarf who sat ever on the pile of gold singing black songs of enchantment to himself’ and who ‘by many dark spells, bind it to himself’, along with the dying curse he lays upon the treasure, comes directly from the Icelandic legends which formed such a large part of Tolkien’s professional repertoire. In particular, the old story of the famous hoard of the Nibelungs that plays a crucial part in works as different as the Volsunga Saga, Snorri’s Prose Edda, the Nibelungenlied, and Wagner’s Ring Cycle provides the motif of a treasure stolen from the dwarves which later brings disaster upon all those who seek to claim it, even the descendants and kin of the original owners.

Another work that Tolkien was much interested in for the glimpses it provided of ancient lore, the Heidreks Saga, features an episode wherein a hero captures the dwarves Dvalin and Durin and forces them to forge him a magical sword; they do so but before departing lay a curse upon it so that once drawn it can never be resheathed until it has taken a human life. This saga is also the source of one of Gollum’s riddles and one of the sources for Dwalin’s and Durin’s names.

Unedifying though it may be, ‘The Nauglafring’ does offer us the first extended view of Tolkien’s dwarves, one so much at variance with the race as developed in The Hobbit that Tolkien eventually obliged to create a new name for the old race, ‘the petty dwarves’, to distinguish the people of Mim from Durin’s Folk and their peers, the kindred of the Seven Houses of the Dwarves and the ancestors of Thorin Oakenshield.

The mysteries surrounding the dwarves’ origins expressed in ‘The Nauglafring’ (They are strange race and none know surely whence they be; and they serve not Melko nor Manwe and reck not for Elf or Man, and some say that they had not heard of Iluvatar, or hearing disbelieve), endured to the time of The Hobbit’s composition and beyond. The Silmarillion’s account of Aule’s creation of the dwarves did not enter the mythology until around the time of The Hobbit’s publication and thus postdate the book’s composition by roughly half a decade.
​

 

[Edmond Dantès]

A key excerpt from Plato's Republic regarding the 'Ring of Gyges' mentioned above:

Glaucon disagrees with Socrates and insists that justice and virtue are not in fact desirable in and of themselves. In support of his claim, Glaucon offers the following story which suggests that the only reason people act morally is that they lack the power to behave otherwise. Take away the fear of punishment, and the "just" and the "unjust" person will both behave in the same way: unjustly, immorally.

Gyges was a shepherd in the service of the king of Lydia; there was a great storm, and an earthquake made an opening in the earth at the place where he was feeding his flock. Amazed at the sight, he descended into the opening, where, among other marvels, he beheld a hollow brazen horse, having doors, at which he stooping and looking in saw a dead body of stature, as appeared to him, more than human, and having nothing on but a gold ring; this he took from the finger of the dead and reascended.

Now the shepherds met together, according to custom, that they might send their monthly report about the flocks to the king; into their assembly he came having the ring on his finger, and as he was sitting among them he chanced to turn the collet of the ring inside his hand, when instantly he became invisible to the rest of the company and they began to speak of him as if he were no longer present. He was astonished at this, and again touching the ring he turned the collet outwards and reappeared; he made several trials of the ring, and always with the same result-when he turned the collet inwards he became invisible, when outwards he reappeared. Whereupon he contrived to be chosen one of the messengers who were sent to the court; where as soon as he arrived he seduced the queen, and with her help conspired against the king and slew him, and took the kingdom.

Suppose now that there were two such magic rings, and the just put on one of them and the unjust the other; no man can be imagined to be of such an iron nature that he would stand fast in justice. No man would keep his hands off what was not his own when he could safely take what he liked out of the market, or go into houses and lie with any one at his pleasure, or kill or release from prison whom he would, and in all respects be like a God among men. Then the actions of the just would be as the actions of the unjust; they would both come at last to the same point. And this we may truly affirm to be a great proof that a man is just, not willingly or because he thinks that justice is any good to him individually, but of necessity, for wherever any one thinks that he can safely be unjust, there he is unjust. For all men believe in their hearts that injustice is far more profitable to the individual than justice, and he who argues as I have been supposing, will say that they are right.

If you could imagine any one obtaining this power of becoming invisible, and never doing any wrong or touching what was another's, he would be thought by the lookers-on to be a most wretched idiot, although they would praise him to one another's faces, and keep up appearances with one another from a fear that they too might suffer injustice.

Imagine for a moment that you were in possession of such a ring. How would you use it? If you had a perfect guarantee that you would never be caught or punished, what would you do?​

 

[Ape Gone Insane]

Has anybody read The Last Ringbearer?

An alternative retelling of J. R. R. Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings, as told from the point of view of Sauron's forces, based on the proverb: "History is written by the victors." Critics have called The Last Ringbearer "a well-written, energetic adventure yarn that offers an intriguing gloss on what some critics have described as the overly simplistic morality of Tolkien's masterpiece."

Infringement issues aside, it sounds interesting.

Salon article on the book: http://www.salon.com/2011/02/15/last_ringbearer/
http://www.wired.com/geekdad/2011/02/the-last-ringbearer/

 

[Edmond Dantès]

Has anybody read The Last Ringbearer?



Infringement issues aside, it sounds interesting.

Salon article on the book: http://www.salon.com/2011/02/15/last_ringbearer/
http://www.wired.com/geekdad/2011/02/the-last-ringbearer/

Yes, but it's a lot more black and white than Tolkien's attempt. Essentially, the names of the sides have been swapped without a great deal of moral ambiguity added.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

There's no such thing as good or evil in Tolkien's Legendarium, just the comparison of one state with another, interwoven with the underlying issues of Tolkien's era.

 

[Megalosaro]

I don't know if that's true. There was DEFINITELY good and evil. Yeah, there is a bit of ambiguity in how the various Children of Illuvatar are portrayed, particularly men (though the elves and dwarves certainly have their share of evil actions), you can definitely say that their war against Sauron is completely justified and that orcs, goblins, wargs, etc are completely evil and without redemption.

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

There's no such thing as good or evil in Tolkien's Legendarium, just the comparison of one state with another, interwoven with the underlying issues of Tolkien's era.

This is partly what my essay's about! How most people think that the morality in Tolkien is black and white... and how those people are dumb!

(i.e. the moral "grey" of Gollum and Boromir, for example, in differing ways)

... and that orcs, goblins, wargs, etc are completely evil and without redemption.

They're just another example of "Good can be corupted". Orcs are the ultimate insult of Morgoth's, disgusting warped versions of the ultimate created lifeform, the Elves, beyond recognition and beyond repair. They lose all of their autonomy and all of their redeeming features, right down to their supreme physical beauty.

Has anybody read The Last Ringbearer?

Reminds me of a fan-fiction I wrote when I was 14 called "Ringweaver" where Sauron won and he enslaved Gollum, Sam, and Frodo. It was pretty terrible.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

I don't know if that's true. There was DEFINITELY good and evil. Yeah, there is a bit of ambiguity in how the various Children of Illuvatar are portrayed, particularly men (though the elves and dwarves certainly have their share of evil actions), you can definitely say that their war against Sauron is completely justified and that orcs, goblins, wargs, etc are completely pevil and without redemption.

The Children of Morgoth were under the influence of He who engineered them. No real will of their own. Sauron was following in his Master's footsteps with absolute faith in Melkor's conflict with Eru. Melkor represented free will.

It's not as black and white as good and evil.

It also reflected Tolkien's inner conflict regarding his religion and Edith's.

Tolkien himself gives an example with Gandalf in possession of the One. The very meaning of 'good' would be blurred, what is perceived as morally right would lose all meaning.

 

[Jake Tower]

There's no such thing as good or evil in Tolkien's Legendarium, just the comparison of one state with another, interwoven with the underlying issues of Tolkien's era.

Not true at all.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

Not true at all.

The truest of all the analyses out there.

 

[Lufiaddict]

Here's how I saw things after reading the Silmarillion:

The will of Eru defines "good". Straying from Eru's path is "bad" and can only lead to failure.
However, those who do "bad" things force the others to do more "good" things to repair the harm that has been done. So in a way, evil is a necessary... huh... evil.

I'll have to read more on this issue though.

 

[GhaleonEB]

The Children of Morgoth were under the influence of He who engineered them. No real will of their own. Sauron was following in his Master's footsteps with absolute faith in Melkor's conflict with Eru. Melkor represented free will.

It's not as black and white as good and evil.

It also reflected Tolkien's inner conflict regarding his religion and Edith's.

Tolkien himself gives an example with Gandalf in possession of the One. The very meaning of 'good' would be blurred, what is perceived as morally right would lose all meaning.

My knowledge of Tolkien's works is largely confined to The Hobbit and LotR. And it's been a few years since I read the latter. But my recollection of how dominion under Sauron was portrayed is very different; I recall foreshadowing of pillaging, razing of countryside, and Sauron's dominion over all of Middle-Earth as being one of near (or actual) enslavement. Regardless of the genesis of Melkor's rebellion, I have a hard time squaring that with how Sauron and his ambitions were portrayed in LotR. (For example, it was Sauron who enslaved the Nine, rather than enlisting them in some campaign for freedom from someone else's dominion.) I always thought the enslavement of the Nine and the way his minions were treated reflected Sauron's ambition for all of Middle-Earth, a portrayal that was very black and white, good vs. evil. I don't recall any kind of alternate side to Sauron's motivations being presented.

As for Gandalf and the One, I've always thought his refusal to posses it was because he knew it's power was too much for even him to resist, and he feared what one as powerful as he would do with it. IIRC, it's power was described as corrupting, which is consistent with a good vs. evil framing.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

My knowledge of Tolkien's works is largely confined to The Hobbit and LotR. And it's been a few years since I read the latter. But my recollection of how dominion under Sauron was portrayed is very different; I recall foreshadowing of pillaging, razing of countryside, and Sauron's dominion over all of Middle-Earth as being one of near (or actual) enslavement. Regardless of the genesis of Melkor's rebellion, I have a hard time squaring that with how Sauron and his ambitions were portrayed in LotR. (For example, it was Sauron who enslaved the Nine, rather than enlisting them in some campaign for freedom from someone else's dominion.) I always thought the enslavement of the Nine and the way his minions were treated reflected Sauron's ambition for all of Middle-Earth, a portrayal that was very black and white, good vs. evil. I don't recall any kind of alternate side to Sauron's motivations being presented.

As for Gandalf and the One, I've always thought his refusal to posses it was because he knew it's power was too much for even him to resist, and he feared what one as powerful as he would do with it. IIRC, it's power was described as corrupting, which is consistent with a good vs. evil framing.

With Sauron the secondary factors were order and discipline, two things he was obsessed with, which Melkor took advantage of. His desire to finish what Melkor had started his main desire. Even going so far as to create cults in His name, vague forms of religion in a work largely devoid of references to religion.

What you call 'pillaging, razing of countryside' is progress in the name of the iron fist of industrialization and agriculture, development of technology; progress in a world stifled by the Luddite nature of the Elves and some from the Edain.

It's not as basic as simple 'corruption' brought about by the One as the Gyges conundrum (one of the main influences of the One as developed for The Lord of the Rings) above demonstrates. The Rings of Power were conduits, that allowed Sauron to influence the hröar of the Nine Men, who were already susceptible to such influence after some of the early Edain were taken in by Melkor's message (explored in Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth).

In terms of Gandalf; Tolkien said it best:

Gandalf as Ring-Lord would have been far worse than Sauron. He would have remained 'righteous', but self-righteous. He would have continued to rule and order things for 'good', and the benefit of his subjects according to his wisdom (which was and would have remained great).

What would be construed as good would be obscured beyond reason.

One must also remember the Norse sagas that greatly influenced the Legendarium as a whole. The dominant theme of many of these sagas is moral ambiguity, the Laxdæla saga in particular.

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

In terms of Gandalf; Tolkien said it best:

What would be construed as good would be obscured beyond reason.

One must also remember the Norse sagas that greatly influenced the Legendarium as a whole. The dominant theme of many of these sagas is moral ambiguity, the Laxdæla saga in particular.

Many thanks, and incredibly helpful as this is pretty much what I'm writing about for my independent project right now.

"Dickerson judges that the choice of a “moral victory” over a more conventional one in which the forces of good use the ring against Sauron, is “one of the choices that characterize the great among Tolkien’s characters.”

 

[Edmond Dantès]

Many thanks, and incredibly helpful as this is pretty much what I'm writing about for my independent project right now.

"Dickerson judges that the choice of a “moral victory” over a more conventional one in which the forces of good use the ring against Sauron, is “one of the choices that characterize the great among Tolkien’s characters.”

You're welcome. I'd be interested in reading your project when it's done.