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[Poodlestrike]

I'm curious, how would you have done it compared to Bioware? What would have been a better reason for Reapers to wipe all advanced organic life every 50k years if Bioware decided to stick with "RAWR, I R EVIL UNKNOWN MACHINE."?

Not saying Bioware's final decision was the best they could have done, but still...I'm curious what you and other fans would have prefered. Personally, i have no idea what I was expecting at the time.

I'd explain the cycle as the Reapers deliberately crushing organic civilization periodically to prevent it growing powerful enough to actually challenge them. Scouring the galaxy of life entirely would take way, way too much time; far easier is shaping the progress and technology of emergent civilizations in a predictable fashion (Citadel, Mass Relays), then stomping them. Rinse and repeat forever.

 

[HK-47]

I guess I should clarify. I'm not a proponent of the xzibit meme; I don't have a problem with the "reaper logic", and the overall concept to me was okay. It's really more the execution (as I'm sure most would agree).

Stripping away a lot of their mystery at the end of a 100 hour trilogy for me doesn't take away from the experience and intrigue of learning more about them previously in the trilogy. I don't think "unknowable evil with no reason given" is a better approach except maybe in the case of horror, especially B-level horror.

I mean, did the relative straightforward-ness of the ending of Interestellar for example (won't say any more than that in terms of specifics so as not to spoil people) ruin the whole movie for people? Maybe some people, but I'd imagine not most.

So cosmic horror as a genre is now B-level?

 

[Poodlestrike]

So cosmic horror as a genre is now B-level?

Let's be real, it's always been B-level, at least in terms of the stuff you see in movies and games.

 

[The Artisan]

What needs to be explained about them? They work best if you don't explain them.

I mean, isn't one of the best scenes in Mass Effect Sovereign basically saying that you can't understand them?

It's the classic Monster Behind the Door scenario. It's not knowing what's on the other side that makes things truly scary. Once it's defined, it loses a lot of its magic.

I agree with prag. perhaps if they kept the reapers completely unknown then it would've worked, but the way they were suggesting things with the human harvesting in Me2 made it so that part of there MO became uncovered.

not only that, but the fact that edi described them as hybrid organic inorganic made them all the more interesting. putting things into perspective, it could be said that sovereign was being arrogant when he said he was beyond organics' comprehension, because he was one himself.

 

[Patryn]

I agree with prag. perhaps if they kept the reapers completely unknown then it would've worked, but the way they were suggesting things with the human harvesting in Me2 made it so that part of there MO became uncovered.

not only that, but the fact that edi described them as hybrid organic inorganic made them all the more interesting. putting things into perspective, it could be said that sovereign was being arrogant when he said he was beyond organics' comprehension, because he was one himself.

I will agree that the end of ME2 forced them to explain them.

But then again, I hate almost everything about the plot revelations at the end of ME2. I despise literally every revelation from that sequence.

 

[The Artisan]

I will agree that the end of ME2 forced them to explain them.

But then again, I hate almost everything about the plot revelations at the end of ME2. I despise literally every revelation from that sequence.

damn, really? i thought everybody loved the suicide mission.

every singe thing bothered you? the two biggest things that come to mind are the, I guess "large scale in vitro" creation of a reaper that necessitated the mass abductions of humans, and the fact that TIM wanted you to keep the base for cerberus's own gains, you may agree/disagree and may have miranda quit if she's on your squad. was there anything else?

 

[Patryn]

damn, really? i thought everybody loved the suicide mission.

every singe thing bothered you? the two biggest things that come to mind are the, I guess "large scale in vitro" creation of a reaper that necessitated the mass abductions of humans, and the fact that TIM wanted you to keep the base for cerberus's own gains, you may agree/disagree and may have miranda quit if she's on your squad. was there anything else?

I said I despised the plot revelations, not the mission itself. All the revelations about the Reapers, the human reaper, all that shit. Fucking terrible.

Then again, I also think the Suicide Mission should have ended ME3, not ME2.

 

[The Artisan]

I said I despised the plot revelations, not the mission itself. All the revelations about the Reapers, the human reaper, all that shit. Fucking terrible.

Then again, I also think the Suicide Mission should have ended ME3, not ME2.

okay, so you did not like the presumption that reapers were doing their mass killings as part of a reproduction process, and the manifestation of it during the mission itself being the proto reaper. I wasn't too fond of it myself. I came up with my own theory for their vendetta but it doesn't fit very well with the ME lore. I still appreciate it to the xzibit synthetics shit we got at the end of Me3.

so with the way Me2 was going, how should it have ended?

 

[Patryn]

okay, so you did not like the presumption that reapers were doing their mass killings as part of a reproduction process, and the manifestation of it during the mission itself being the proto reaper. I wasn't too fond of it myself. I came up with my own theory for their vendetta but it doesn't fit very well with the ME lore. I still appreciate it to the xzibit synthetics shit we got at the end of Me3.

so with the way Me2 was going, how should it have ended?

I would scrap the entire plot of ME2 and do something totally different. I think I already covered that today in this thread.

 

[The Artisan]

I would scrap the entire plot of ME2 and do something totally different. I think I already covered that today in this thread.

Oh okay. I didn't see that. If you haven't already stated, what would you have done for Me2? I loved Me2, but it definitely was not perfect. I'm interested to hear what you'da had in mind.

 

[Hyperzephyrian]

I really did want to know the Reaper's origins and motivations. Not providing them would have been a let-down to me, although I probably would have gotten over it. The thing is, their backstory really didn't need to be hugely important.

Consider this, as an example:

A warlike galactic civilization emerges, and quickly dominates the galaxy, exterminating the older and more peaceful civilizations that came before (if any). They create the Reapers to prevent the emergence of rival cultures. And it works, very well. But without an external enemy, that civilization's aggressive tendencies lead to constant civil wars, and eventually they destroy themselves. But the Reapers are still around, still carrying on their mission, because they're machines, and they were told to kill every other race, and machines follow orders.

Done. Backstory solved. You have enough information to understand what's going on, but there's still a lot of mystery to it. And the Reapers' motivations don't hijack the story. You can still keep the idea of the Reapers as colossal megastructures housing the minds of an entire destroyed race. Hell, you can even keep the "humans are special" theme by comparing human aggression and expansionism to the Reapers' creators.

 

[The Shogun]

Reapers origin should have simply been they are an evil group of robot space squids of unknown origin. They destroy life because they think its fun and amuses them. Play into the huge ego's we see with Sovereign. Like kids playing with an ant hill. They simply like to squash us.

 

[dr_rus]

Can't believe people actually thought it'd be skipping PC lol.

Not "thought", "hoped" is more precise.

 

[The Artisan]

Not "thought", "hoped" is more precise.

why would anyone care enough to want or hope it not to come to PC?

 

[Patryn]

why would anyone care enough to want or hope it not to come to PC?

That's my question as well.

 

[dr_rus]

why would anyone care enough to want or hope it not to come to PC?

Same reason why a group of people want a title to be exclusive to a platform.

Actually, isn't this a rehash of an old rumour of ME4 being XBO exclusive? This time they've broaden the scope however.

 

[prag16]

Not "thought", "hoped" is more precise.

Who was "hoping" for this? The only related thing I recall is various people at some points being "afraid" it'd be xbone exclusive (not sure if this was due to hiphopgamer's claim or not). I don't remember anything else about it being console-only.

 

[nel e nel]

What needs to be explained about them? They work best if you don't explain them.

I mean, isn't one of the best scenes in Mass Effect Sovereign basically saying that you can't understand them?

It's the classic Monster Behind the Door scenario. It's not knowing what's on the other side that makes things truly scary. Once it's defined, it loses a lot of its magic.

 

[Ganzlinger]

why would anyone care enough to want or hope it not to come to PC?

PC x console wars...

 

[anexanhume]

I said I despised the plot revelations, not the mission itself. All the revelations about the Reapers, the human reaper, all that shit. Fucking terrible.

Then again, I also think the Suicide Mission should have ended ME3, not ME2.

Same here. Loved ME2's opening and really enjoyed new characters, but the human reaper thing was just terrible.

 

[Patryn]

QED.

 

[The Artisan]

That's my question as well.

I don't think we'll ever get a definite answer, man.

Same reason why a group of people want a title to be exclusive to a platform.

well, I think it is somewhat reasonable to want an exclusive game from a series that was once exclusive to that platform. but not wanting it to come to PC.. I'd need an explanation to know why.

Actually, isn't this a rehash of an old rumour of ME4 being XBO exclusive? This time they've broaden the scope however.

Is it? you said "hoped" is more accurate than "thought" but this is about not wanting it to come to one platform vs having it exclusive to one platform which is a console. for the record if the game did ever end up being a xbone exclusive i think it could be a console exclusive.

Who was "hoping" for this? The only related thing I recall is various people at some points being "afraid" it'd be xbone exclusive (not sure if this was due to hiphopgamer's claim or not). I don't remember anything else about it being console-only.

crapgamer said it too. i hope they're both wrong but to be completely honest, i do see it being possible.

PC x console wars...

and i thought "bloodborne coming to pc" couldn't get any worse.

 

[prag16]

crapgamer said it too. i hope they're both wrong but to be completely honest, i do see it being possible.

You still see xbone exclusivity being possible? Hell, Mac just explicitly confirmed the existence of the PC version (as if that was necessary).

 

[The Artisan]

You still see xbone exclusivity being possible? Hell, Mac just explicitly confirmed the existence of the PC version (as if that was necessary).

not probable, but possible. and i said even if that happens it'll likely still be a console exclusive.

but hey, I hope to be completely wrong coz I'd be bummed the fuck out if Me4 doesn't show up on the Ps4 platform.

 

[dr_rus]

well, I think it is somewhat reasonable to want an exclusive game from a series that was once exclusive to that platform. but not wanting it to come to PC.. I'd need an explanation to know why.

The first title was exclusive to 360 when Bioware was independent and MS was the publisher. Things happened since then and these things makes any exclusivity for a ME game highly unlikely.

 

[Hyperzephyrian]

The first title was exclusive to 360 when Bioware was independent and MS was the publisher. Things happened since then and these things makes any exclusivity for a ME game highly unlikely.

It's not worth it, nothing you say will convince him otherwise.

 

[DOWN]

Remember it was always planned to be a trilogy once they made the early reveals. They said so long before they even released the first game.

It was actually a little controversial at the time, as people felt it was rather presumptuous of Too Human and Mass Effect to claim they would be trilogies without seeing if players wanted what they got.

 

[prag16]

not probable, but possible. and i said even if that happens it'll likely still be a console exclusive.

but hey, I hope to be completely wrong coz I'd be bummed the fuck out if Me4 doesn't show up on the Ps4 platform.

Well we now know that the lack of a PC version is impossible. I could have sworn somebody from Bioware mentioned PS4 at some point too, but could be wrong. Regardless, it's shocking to me that anybody spends even a second worrying that this may not come to PS4.

 

[royox]

Same here. Loved ME2's opening and really enjoyed new characters, but the human reaper thing was just terrible.

I loved the human reaper. Reapers were supposed to have the harvested specie form inside the metal armor before ME3.

 

[The Artisan]

The first title was exclusive to 360 when Bioware was independent and MS was the publisher. Things happened since then and these things makes any exclusivity for a ME game highly unlikely.

I agree, as long as mS doesn't pull another rotr but as has been stated in this thread several times, it's doubtful ea would agree to something like that considering how huge the Ps4 install base already is.

It's not worth it, nothing you say will convince him otherwise.

I'll speak for myself.

Well we now know that the lack of a PC version is impossible. I could have sworn somebody from Bioware mentioned PS4 at some point too, but could be wrong. Regardless, it's shocking to me that anybody spends even a second worrying that this may not come to PS4.

I'm not really concerned about it as I don't see it happening, I'm just saying it's not completely out of the realm of possibility.

 

[Ridesh]

The human reaper was a good idea with a goofy design, the other designs from the artbook were a lot better.

This one for example

 

[The Artisan]

The human reaper was a good idea with a goofy design, the other designs from the artbook were a lot better.

I agree with that as well. iirc the artbook included a design that made it resemble more of a giant embryo. although, I wonder how they would've handled the final bossfight in that way though.

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

Ugh, human reaper was terrible.

Was the completed reaper going to fly through space like superman, or was there going to be a giant outer shell that completely covers the human part of it? Either way, it's a stupid idea.

 

[Ridesh]

Ugh, human reaper was terrible.

Was the completed reaper going to fly through space like superman, or was there going to be a giant outer shell that completely covers the human part of it? Either way, it's a stupid idea.

The later, what we saw of it was just the core.

End result would have been something like this:

 

[prag16]

I'm just saying it's not completely out of the realm of possibility.

Well, no sense in arguing about it any further. It'll be officially set straight before too long I'm sure.

 

[The Artisan]

Well, no sense in arguing about it any further. It'll be officially set straight before too long I'm sure.

well I won't argue that the most (and best case) scenario is that it'll be multiplat right outta the gate.

while they announce that I'll just say again... I really hope the ME trilogy remaster is real. I've got one platinum trophy and that's Me2. I'd happily obtain it again for Ps4

 

[Dilly]

I agree with that as well. iirc the artbook included a design that made it resemble more of a giant embryo. although, I wonder how they would've handled the final bossfight in that way though.

Weren't there rumours about them originally wanting to have a mission that displayed the different stages of the Human Reaper. I also liked the idea.

Ugh, human reaper was terrible.

Was the completed reaper going to fly through space like superman, or was there going to be a giant outer shell that completely covers the human part of it? Either way, it's a stupid idea.

Outer shell to look like Leviathan.

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

The later, what we saw of it was just the core.

End result would have been something like this:
http://i.imgur.com/uev8CF7.jpg[img][/QUOTE]

Yeah I've seen the art book. It's just so pointless from a design perspective. We built this giant human shaped robot with articulating limbs and laser eyes that serves no purpose because it's just the core of the ship that won't see the light of day after construction. It's just one more layer of how the people involved didn't get some of this stuff, on a fundamental level. It's made of human goop, therefore it's human shaped, with a human face, human limbs etc.

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/ORgnTYN.jpg

 

[thechristoph]

What needs to be explained about them? They work best if you don't explain them.

I mean, isn't one of the best scenes in Mass Effect Sovereign basically saying that you can't understand them?

It's the classic Monster Behind the Door scenario. It's not knowing what's on the other side that makes things truly scary. Once it's defined, it loses a lot of its magic.

No. That's not good at all. It's basically sayibg "We are just monsters to kill. Our writers couldn't come up with an actual motivation".

 

[wolfhowwl]

What needs to be explained about them? They work best if you don't explain them.

I mean, isn't one of the best scenes in Mass Effect Sovereign basically saying that you can't understand them?

It's the classic Monster Behind the Door scenario. It's not knowing what's on the other side that makes things truly scary. Once it's defined, it loses a lot of its magic.

There are questions that should be explored. How is organic life relevant to them and why does it need to be harvested periodically? What is all this ultimately in service of? Things that would develop the Reapers, that Shepard & co. would want to learn about their enemy, and that the writers should already know about their creation anyways.

The Reapers are an ancient evil that awakens and goes on a rampage. The novelty of the presentation and twist carried it through ME1 but we're going to be spending three games on these guys. There should be some exploration of those questions that will add some depth to our antagonist if the conflict is going to be continued. If it isn't done, as the luster of deep-voiced speeches fades, it becomes increasingly obvious that they are just monsters with no motive wrecking havoc in service of the plot instead of their own agenda. It would be a cop-out, a failure of ambition, and not very interesting.

Also Mass Effect 1 was already giving away the mystery so it is not like there was some radical change in direction with the later games. It has Sovereign talking with you in English and then the game tells you how their plan works with the Citadels and Relays. From the first game you know that whatever the Reapers are they aren't so different that they can't communicate verbally and that that have an explicit interest and plan for regulating organic civilizations. Yeah the motives are "beyond our comprehension" but bluster from Sovereign aside that is just BioWare blasting the player with hot air so they didn't have to even hint at anything. For reasons we now know (they had nothing lol).

 

[HK-47]

Yeah I've seen the art book. It's just so pointless from a design perspective. We built this giant human shaped robot with articulating limbs and laser eyes that serves no purpose because it's just the core of the ship that won't see the light of day after construction. It's just one more layer of how the people involved didn't get some of this stuff, on a fundamental level. It's made of human goop, therefore it's human shaped, with a human face, human limbs etc.

It does still make me chuckle when I think about it though, so thats a plus.

 

[wolfhowwl]

Also what is up with the MS moneyhat fearmongering in this thread?

 

[FStop7]

No. That's not good at all. It's basically sayibg "We are just monsters to kill. Our writers couldn't come up with an actual motivation".

But that's very likely how it will be if we encounter an alien race that is vastly beyond our own. The motivations of a construction crew flattening an empty lot in preparation for creating a building are utterly unknowable to the ants whose homes are being destroyed.

 

[The Artisan]

Weren't there rumours about them originally wanting to have a mission that displayed the different stages of the Human Reaper. I also liked the idea.

I have no idea. so you would've fought the human reaper in different stages during the suicide mission?

Also what is up with the MS moneyhat fearmongering in this thread?

it's only me. and i'm not scared to death about it as I understand it's not likely.

 

[Ganzlinger]

But that's very likely how it will be if we encounter an alien race that is vastly beyond our own. The motivations of a construction crew flattening an empty lot in preparation for creating a building are utterly unknowable to the ants whose homes are being destroyed.

That's make sense. Actually there was a thread sometime ago when some gaffer posted something about "Fermi paradox" and this analogy was used.

 

[Toa TAK]

'Member this awesome trailer?

I really need that version of the Suicide Mission track.

 

[EatChildren]

I don't see Chris as trying to make the Reapers sympathetic, and I wouldn't have mind if there was a tiny bit of explanation (or implication) and just left it at that. Mystical space Cthulhu doesn't really sit well with me in science fiction, but it really could have been as simple as the Reapers being the first species in the galaxy, reaching a technological singularity of evolution, and requiring (for whatever reasons) organics to sustain their lifecycle. Ergo they set up the galaxy more or less like a farm they can predictably harvest.

It doesn't really make them sympathetic. They're doing what they do to survive, so whatever, but who gives a shit when they're the threat. They're still the big bad and they must die. It's basic and keeps them as a threat that doesn't warrant further explanation or development beyond their destruction.

 

[Nick_crx]

Yeah I've seen the art book. It's just so pointless from a design perspective. We built this giant human shaped robot with articulating limbs and laser eyes that serves no purpose because it's just the core of the ship that won't see the light of day after construction. It's just one more layer of how the people involved didn't get some of this stuff, on a fundamental level. It's made of human goop, therefore it's human shaped, with a human face, human limbs etc.

Which is why ME2 is far worse than ME3 imo....story made no sense at all.

But for some reason its hailed as the best?

 

[EatChildren]

Which is why ME2 is far worse than ME3 imo....story made no sense at all.

But for some reason its hailed as the best?

Because of the character stories most likely. Mass Effect 2 is weird in that it barely has a main narrative arc, at least in terms of substance. There's like...three or four essential missions and they all boil down to the same thing; Collectors are stealing humans, find their base of operations and destroy them. It's supplemented by the "build a crackpot team of nutcases". Most people speak favourably of those; strong mission arcs, interesting characters, fun adventuring (even if you're basically playing therapist). Only 99% of the time those missions have nothing to do with the main arc, and so you're left feeling like the latter is empty.

 

[Toa TAK]

I thought everyone put ME1 as the best?

I couldn't choose between any of them, though.