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The Mass Effect Community Thread

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Anyone have any grand theories on what they think biotics will be like in this game? Since we really haven't seen any concrete and finished combat footage i'm hoping there'll be some crazy customization and mix-and-match ability design.

I'm envisioning some kind of singularity tornado that moves around and sucks up enemies with it or perhaps a kind of bubble shield that Samara and Liara use in ME2 which can protect you and teammates.

Hell forget attacks and why not infuse biotics with ground traversal? Samara could float through the air to get down from locations and vanguards can teleport to locations or hard to reach ledges without the need of a target lock-on.
 

DevilDog

Member
Hell forget attacks and why not infuse biotics with ground traversal? Samara could float through the air to get down from locations and vanguards can teleport to locations or hard to reach ledges without the need of a target lock-on.
Eh why not? As far as I know we could have used biotics a million times by now to overcome obstacles ahead of us.

Not showing up until virmire and the end isn't really progression. At least Harper had a couple of games to explain why controlling reaper tech is compelling.

I don't think you believe this. Two characters don't have to necessairily meet up in order for their character arcs to happen.
For example, shepard learning about indoctrination changed his mind about how he viewed Saren.
Saren watching Shepard plow through his forces without any hesitation to stop the reapers made him second guess himself. etc.
 

diaspora

Member
Traversal might have something like Fade-Step, maybe something like a barrier to cushion the player from fall-damage.

I don't think you believe this. Two characters don't have to necessairily meet up in order for their character arcs to happen.
For example, shepard learning about indoctrination changed his mind about how he viewed Saren.
Saren watching Shepard plow through his forces without any hesitation to stop the reapers made him second guess himself. etc.

You're assuming a whole lot that isn't actually executed in the game, though that seems to be the MO when it comes to a lot of impressions of ME1. The entirety of his development happened in the comics.
 
Anyone have any grand theories on what they think biotics will be like in this game? Since we really haven't seen any concrete and finished combat footage i'm hoping there'll be some crazy customization and mix-and-match ability design.

I'm envisioning some kind of singularity tornado that moves around and sucks up enemies with it or perhaps a kind of bubble shield that Samara and Liara use in ME2 which can protect you and teammates.

Hell forget attacks and why not infuse biotics with ground traversal? Samara could float through the air to get down from locations and vanguards can teleport to locations or hard to reach ledges without the need of a target lock-on.

I'd be leery of trying to give Biotics their just due, lorewise. All three modes (guns, tech, biotics) need to be roughly balanced, if you give Biotics some crazy customization system and a host of special movement options, you need to give guns and tech a similar level of flexibility and power, and that's just messy. Better to keep things more or less as they are.
 

DevilDog

Member
You're assuming a whole lot that isn't actually executed in the game, though that seems to be the MO when it comes to a lot of impressions of ME1. The entirety of his development happened in the comics.

I've never read the comics, but I didn't really assume anything. Shepard can admit that Saren is trapped in his own mind in the first game, and the Saren said that he had been watching shepard's progress as well.

Not to say small assumptions aren't a good thing. I don't want the game screaming everything in my face. I love having to work my way through the characters in the game like a puzzle. Not grapsing the subtleties and demanding direct reassurance is the wrong way to go if you want a mature story.

Ugh, blizzard comes to mind. Please no.
 
I'd be leery of trying to give Biotics their just due, lorewise. All three modes (guns, tech, biotics) need to be roughly balanced, if you give Biotics some crazy customization system and a host of special movement options, you need to give guns and tech a similar level of flexibility and power, and that's just messy. Better to keep things more or less as they are.

I don't think it could be messy, it might bring back some more of the RPG and rock-paper-scissors feel to the game. Biotics get the coolest and potentially most powerful attacks but are constrained by cooldowns and weak defensive gear, gun based characters get ridiculous weapons with highly customizable mods and can also get the best defensive armour but are limited by ammo and mobility, and tech-based classes get a wide variety of powerful hacking abilities, moddable-turrets, drones and explosives but can neither shoot very well or use biotics.

They've spent almost 5 years developing this game, I'd like to believe the combat has a lot of depth and work done to it.
 

diaspora

Member
I've never read the comics, but I didn't really assume anything. Shepard can admit that Saren is trapped in his own mind in the first game, and the Saren said that he had been watching shepard's progress as well.

Not to say small assumptions aren't a good thing. I don't want the game screaming everything in my face. I love having to work my way through the characters in the game like a puzzle. Not grapsing the subtleties and demanding direct reassurance is the wrong way to go if you want a mature story.

Ugh, blizzard comes to mind. Please no.
Straight up inventing character progression that wasn't in the game is an assumption though.
I don't think it could be messy, it might bring back some more of the RPG and rock-paper-scissors feel to the game. Biotics get the coolest and potentially most powerful attacks but are constrained by cooldowns and weak defensive gear, gun based characters get ridiculous weapons with highly customizable mods and can also get the best defensive armour but are limited by ammo and mobility, and tech-based classes get a wide variety of powerful hacking abilities, moddable-turrets, drones and explosives but can neither shoot very well or use biotics.

They've spent almost 5 years developing this game, I'd like to believe the combat has a lot of depth and work done to it.
So basically a refinement of ME3 =P
 
So basically a refinement of ME3 =P

Actually, a bit of refinement of ME1 with the abilities and fluidity of combat of ME3.

I liked the fact that your armour and weapons were dictated by what class your chose. Removing that fact in ME3 kinda homogenized the classes and made them lose their identity.
 

diaspora

Member
Actually, a bit of refinement of ME1 with the abilities and fluidity of combat of ME3.

I liked the fact that your armour and weapons were dictated by what class your chose. Removing that fact in ME3 kinda homogenized the classes and made them lose their identity.
Well no, it's a refinement of ME3's weapon system. Optimizing your class meant choosing the right size and depth of your weapons, you're just extending that further to armors.
 
Well no, it's a refinement of ME3's weapon system. Optimizing your class meant choosing the right size and depth of your weapons, you're just extending that further to armors.

Why should that be the case? Why should a Vanguard be able to run around smashing people with a Black Widow and Charge without being severely impacted by cooldown? Any class could bypass the weight burden in ME3, effectively making Soldier and Infiltrator the most pointless classes to pick because other classes get all the same weapons and more abilities at no severe cost.

It's aggravating how broken Vanguard was, even on Insanity. Lemme just shoot at you a bit with my powerful cerberus harrier and then charge and nova you to get all my shields back with an almost immediate refresh of cooldown. No risk, all reward. It makes the insanity trophy/achievement a joke.
 

diaspora

Member
Why should that be the case? Why should a Vanguard be able to run around smashing people with a Black Widow and Charge without being severely impacted by cooldown? Any class could bypass the weight burden in ME3, effectively making Soldier and Infiltrator the most pointless classes to pick because other classes get all the same weapons and more abilities at no severe cost.

It's aggravating how broken Vanguard was, even on Insanity. Lemme just shoot at you a bit with my powerful cerberus harrier and then charge and nova you to get all my shields back with an almost immediate refresh of cooldown. No risk, all reward. It makes the insanity trophy/achievement a joke.
That's a numeric balance issue, not a problem inherent to the system's design.
 
That's a numeric balance issue, not a problem inherent to the system's design.

What's numeric about a close quarters biotic class using long range weapons? No amount of cooldown tweaking is going to stop that class from being able to successfully use the most powerful weapon in the game without completely locking that class out from using it.

If you're suggesting that the biotic class should do less damage with the gun or be less accurate then what's the point in having it? At that point you're just confirming that they shouldn't be using the weapon to begin with and would be deliberately handicapping themselves by trying to.

It's just my personal opinion and in the end the combat systems for Andromeda are probably already completed so my own thoughts on the topic don't really matter anyway.
 
They've spent almost 5 years developing this game, I'd like to believe the combat has a lot of depth and work done to it.

Combat is something BioWare Montreal is good at judging from DLC and the ME3 multiplayer, so I'm optimistic here.

I'm hoping that positioning and mobility are more important in combat (which makes sense with the larger levels and open world aspects) so balancing heavier gear against more manoeuvrability is actually an interesting choice.

Also: a proper stealth system for Infiltrators and ninja Biotics would be nice.
 

EatChildren

Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
From the previous discussion about dialogue/persuasion as game systems within RPGs and how they're build, I can see the kind of RPG DeadlyParasite prefers. I think there were strings of it in Mass Effect 1, but they definitely steered away from that kind of design with the sequels for a different kind of RPG, one more akin to something like Fallout/Arcanum to Baldurs Gate, where stats and loadouts are about tailoring your playstyle as opposed to being locked out of certain playstyles due to stats/classes.

It did mix the combat up, though I don't feel for the worse so much as something different. ME3 feels so good to play, there's a nice rhythm to all the classes, and it's really highlighted in the multiplayer. Montreal did a wonderful job there.

But yeah, I do wonder how Andromeda will handle combat. To be the fair, the ME2/ME3 system works well in the very confined, close quarters combat encounters that predominate those two games. But we can assume that Andromeda teeters a bit more towards ME1 where it'll be a combination of traditional closed levels and more open play space. Some of the long range encounters and mobility you can afford to use in ME1 weren't present in ME2/ME3, but should be in Andromeda. How that'll impact biotics and infiltrator will be interesting to see play out.

And I mean, even stuff like stealth and exploration. In ME2/ME3 these are generally redundant since these abilities are more contextual to the tightly designed encounters. Useful for combat scenarios but not much beyond. For Andromeda, will we be able to use biotics to supplement the jetpack? With wider play space, will cloaking become viable as a more nuanced strategic tool?
 

diaspora

Member
DA:I has a strong set of skill trees and progression for each class while also taking advantage of the abilities for each class in the actual exploration. If nothing else they ought to move further in that direction while also extending on what ME3 built.
 

diaspora

Member
I never could get into dragon age unfortunately...tried to with Da3 but it just wasn't my thing.

yessir. heard that first at ps access
And that's fair, but would you argue that the character build mechanics, skill trees, class powers used in exploration, and character progression was the reason though? DAI for most of the game has really rough quest design, terrible tactical camera, and tepid tactical options, but I think the other stuff can contribute a lot to ME.
 
And that's fair, but would you argue that the character build mechanics, skill trees, class powers used in exploration, and character progression was the reason though? DAI for most of the game has really rough quest design, terrible tactical camera, and tepid tactical options, but I think the other stuff can contribute a lot to ME.
Nah definitely not. The game's mechanics & all that shit worked fine.

The story & lore's probably pretty great too, it's just I guess I'm not into playing medieval setting games. If it were a movie I'd check it out but not really finna play it as a game. Also as a free roam game I got confused at one point about what to do next or where I was suppsosed to go.
 

diaspora

Member
Nah definitely not. The game's mechanics & all that shit worked fine.

The story & lore's probably pretty great too, it's just I guess I'm not into playing medieval setting games. If it were a movie I'd check it out but not really finna play it as a game. Also as a free roam game I got confused at one point about what to do next or where I was suppsosed to go.

Fair enough. Though this DA:I talk has got me wanting to reinstall it though I probably shouldn't until I beat Quantum Break and actually finish my ME2 modding walkthrough (ME3explorer setup is hard to explain).
 

Sou Da

Member
I still think they should do something a bit more similar to what fallout 3+ does and make the crosshairs wider the less you're trained in a weapon.

I guess the trouble is that most people will just see it as "put points into skill to make gunplay not suck"

All I want from biotics is the bending light effect back from ME1.
 
All I want from biotics is the bending light effect back from ME1.

I think some degree of biotic colour changing would be pretty cool, if not a bit superfluous. Maybe red biotics if you're a morally dubious character, purple for a neutrally developed personality, and blue for a do-gooder.
 

diaspora

Member
I still think they should do something a bit more similar to what fallout 3+ does and make the crosshairs wider the less you're trained in a weapon.

I guess the trouble is that most people will just see it as "put points into skill to make gunplay not suck"

All I want from biotics is the bending light effect back from ME1.

I don't know if Fallout in general is a model to follow for gunplay tbh.
 

Ralemont

not me
TIM was a bad example of indoctrination, Saren wasn't.

Saren was an example of people losing themselves due to fear/ignorance/depression who give up on what they believed.
You can take out the indoctrination mechanic from the story and you still have a very believable tragic character, because his motives make sense.

Yes and it would also change your interactions with him, which is my point. If Saren weren't indoctrinated then Shepard et al wouldn't be taking issue with him for being indoctrinated, and you might actually have a (brief) discussion/refutation of his beliefs instead of his state of mind. This is all encapsulated by the fact that, as you brought up, when Saren realizes he's indoctrinated he kills himself. If he actually believed the Reapers could be reasoned with, that they were the next transcendental step for organics, that they would let subservient races be, then he'd go on trying to stop Shepard even after realizing they control him. Instead he realizes he believes these things because they forced him to.

This is also mirrored in the conversation path with TIM in ME3 where you get him to shoot himself. Shepard's response to TIM's position that the Crucible will let you control the Reapers and that this is better for humanity is "you're indoctrinated." Take the indoctrination angle away and it's a battle of beliefs again, like it seemed in ME2. That's why the version of TIM's death scene I'll always prefer is shooting him as opposed to letting him shoot himself, because his final words reinforce that they were two men trying to save the galaxy but having irreconcilable ways to go about it, as opposed to one dude being brainwashed and finally realizing it.
 

DevilDog

Member
Yes and it would also change your interactions with him, which is my point. If Saren weren't indoctrinated then Shepard et al wouldn't be taking issue with him for being indoctrinated, and you might actually have a (brief) discussion/refutation of his beliefs instead of his state of mind. This is all encapsulated by the fact that, as you brought up, when Saren realizes he's indoctrinated he kills himself. If he actually believed the Reapers could be reasoned with, that they were the next transcendental step for organics, that they would let subservient races be, then he'd go on trying to stop Shepard even after realizing they control him. Instead he realizes he believes these things because they forced him to.

I mean, changing the characters involved in any story would obviously change their interactions.

Ok, so imagine that you were Saren, and one day you discover about the Reapers, how insanely powerful they are and what they've done over the millions of years of their existence. Let's be real, you'd shit your pants, and I wouldn't believe you if you said to me that the option of negotiation never crossed your mind.

At that point, Saren chose to sort things out himself, because as he said, making this thing go public would mean the organic life would panic and go full on insane about it, ruining any chance he believed he had at resolving this peacefully. So he went to resolve this huge issue solo. With Benezia as his ''advisor''. And from there he started descending into madness.

Now Shepard reacted in a different way. He chose to stop them no matter the cost, and that was the only time you saw someone affect Saren so deeply. It drove him even more insane in Virmire where he let Saren implant him, even though he sort of knew that he was getting indoctrinated.
Both wanted to save the galaxy, in different ways. We don't know if the fight against the reapers is hopeless or not , what matters is that Shepard radiated his ideals through action ( of the narrative AND gameplay kind) , and his ideals caused Saren to choose suicide.

Also you gotta remember, sci fi is a powerful vessel for commentary for real life. The council was basically commentary on today's political system, and indoctrination was commentary on how people can be led astray to do bad shit.

This is also mirrored in the conversation path with TIM in ME3 where you get him to shoot himself. Shepard's response to TIM's position that the Crucible will let you control the Reapers and that this is better for humanity is "you're indoctrinated." Take the indoctrination angle away and it's a battle of beliefs again, like it seemed in ME2. That's why the version of TIM's death scene I'll always prefer is shooting him as opposed to letting him shoot himself, because his final words reinforce that they were two men trying to save the galaxy but having irreconcilable ways to go about it, as opposed to one dude being brainwashed and finally realizing it.

What exactly were the battle of beliefs in ME2? Almost nothing in that game made sense to warrant a serious discussion about beliefs.
Unless we're talking about the squadmate stories. I really really liked talking about Legion.
 
I just want the ability for my /character/ to miss, it's kind of an important roleplaying element to have in an rpg with guns.

That is an awful idea. Die-based combat is fine when you've got an isometric or turn-based structure, but for real time 3rd person combat it's nothing but miserable. The gain in verisimilitude simply isn't worth it.
 
That is an awful idea. Die-based combat is fine when you've got an isometric or turn-based structure, but for real time 3rd person combat it's nothing but miserable. The gain in verisimilitude simply isn't worth it.

Yeah, nothing like pulling the trigger point blank at an enemy's face and the game telling you it missed.
 

EatChildren

Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
I just want the ability for my /character/ to miss, it's kind of an important roleplaying element to have in an rpg with guns.

I think it entirely depends on the type of RPG and how it's constructed, and I personally don't think it works very well (or is at least hard to pull off) in games with real time player involvement in the act of aiming itself.

I won't go on a rant here, but I find the philosophy of role playing relative to table top and interactive products to be fascinating. The goal of role playing is to emulate a diverse range of real functions and commands with believable causality and function in a fictional environment. For table top games dice rolls are the guts of the game because this is literally your only means of interacting with the world. I feel that with CRPGs the construct of the RPG itself is skewered, as functions that can only exist as dice rolls for table top can now become actual real time involvement from the player.

That's why I think it works best with isometric style RPGs where your control over the avatar is more command based. They are an external entity on a board, within a world, whom you issue commands that are expressed through dice rolls and stat checks. When full real time interactivity enters the picture the functions become muddied, and I personally don't think it's satisfying for a game to permit and require me to functionally aim with my direct involvement and then require dice/stat checks on top of that. I don't really mind skills that somewhat effect weapon proficiency to effect real time accuracy variables (recoil, accuracy box, reload speed, etc). But if it totally overules real time aiming, but I still have to real time aim, that usually feels pretty awful to me.
 

diaspora

Member
I think it entirely depends on the type of RPG and how it's constructed, and I personally don't think it works very well (or is at least hard to pull off) in games with real time player involvement in the act of aiming itself.

I won't go on a rant here, but I find the philosophy of role playing relative to table top and interactive products to be fascinating. The goal of role playing is to emulate a diverse range of real functions and commands with believable causality and function in a fictional environment. For table top games dice rolls are the guts of the game because this is literally your only means of interacting with the world. I feel that with CRPGs the construct of the RPG itself is skewered, as functions that can only exist as dice rolls for table top can now become actual real time involvement from the player.

That's why I think it works best with isometric style RPGs where your control over the avatar is more command based. They are an external entity on a board, within a world, whom you issue commands that are expressed through dice rolls and stat checks. When full real time interactivity enters the picture the functions become muddied, and I personally don't think it's satisfying for a game to permit and require me to functionally aim with my direct involvement and then require dice/stat checks on top of that. I don't really mind skills that somewhat effect weapon proficiency to effect real time accuracy variables (recoil, accuracy box, reload speed, etc). But if it totally overules real time aiming, but I still have to real time aim, that usually feels pretty awful to me.
I haven't played Morrowind in a long ass time, but this was a problem there too no?
 

Sou Da

Member
That is an awful idea. Die-based combat is fine when you've got an isometric or turn-based structure, but for real time 3rd person combat it's nothing but miserable. The gain in verisimilitude simply isn't worth it.

I think it entirely depends on the type of RPG and how it's constructed, and I personally don't think it works very well (or is at least hard to pull off) in games with real time player involvement in the act of aiming itself.

I won't go on a rant here, but I find the philosophy of role playing relative to table top and interactive products to be fascinating. The goal of role playing is to emulate a diverse range of real functions and commands with believable causality and function in a fictional environment. For table top games dice rolls are the guts of the game because this is literally your only means of interacting with the world. I feel that with CRPGs the construct of the RPG itself is skewered, as functions that can only exist as dice rolls for table top can now become actual real time involvement from the player.

That's why I think it works best with isometric style RPGs where your control over the avatar is more command based. They are an external entity on a board, within a world, whom you issue commands that are expressed through dice rolls and stat checks. When full real time interactivity enters the picture the functions become muddied, and I personally don't think it's satisfying for a game to permit and require me to functionally aim with my direct involvement and then require dice/stat checks on top of that. I don't really mind skills that somewhat effect weapon proficiency to effect real time accuracy variables (recoil, accuracy box, reload speed, etc). But if it totally overules real time aiming, but I still have to real time aim, that usually feels pretty awful to me.

I wasn't suggesting die based combat, I specifically meant that the crosshairs should be slightly wider the less proficient you are in a weapon.
 

Meowster

Member
This is the last great plot from Bioware. Easily the best I've ever seen. I have to agree about the characters, the animations/dialogue is just more interesting in the sequels.

Except Wrex, Saren, anderson, Liara and
Sovereign
I just beat it and have moved on to Mass Effect 2. I really enjoyed the storyline for the game and I thought the villains were well done. The other villains in the series are kinda a joke (other than The Illusive Man but I like him better in 2 than 3). The ones you listed were probably my favorites of the game but I would add Garrus too.

While the plot of Mass Effect 2 isn't anything special by any means and the gameplay has been stripped down, I love all of the world building it does. They give you a lot more glimpses into the culture of other aliens and their social breakdowns. The characters are just much better. Jacob is boring as hell but I even like him. I was surprised to learn that Miranda was considered very meh by the fanbase, she's probably my favorite character in the series (shame her alt outfit isn't her default though).

This is my first time getting to use Kasumi since I didn't have the DLC previously on the PC and it comes with the PS3 version. I love the hell out of her. I wish they gave us more dialogue with her one and one because I think she's hilarious.
 
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