What's weird to me isn't the people doubting he was a child molester, but the people ardently defending a potential child molester. There is no proof that he didn't do it. Do they also go to bat for other accused child molesters? Otherwise it just seems like the usual celebrity fetishism that western society diaplays. This is why so many rich and famous people get away with things in court.
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The Michael Jackson Rebuttal
- Thread starter lightskintwin
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stump sock
Member
People keep harping on about MJ being a child molester... why? Why keep repeating something with zero evidence.
Your feelings and intuitions on how "weird" MJ is, isn't evidence.
All we have is a trial and a ton of evidence proving that he didn't hurt the kids he hung out with. This isn't like a Cosby situation where dozens of women came out with the allegations. MJ hung out with tons of kids and only 2 of them ever accused him of anything. And both kids were proven to have shitty parents that were on record proclaiming to want to take advantage of MJ.....
So why keep repeating that you know he's a molester when you have all of the evidence proving otherwise?
Your feelings and intuitions on how "weird" MJ is, isn't evidence.
All we have is a trial and a ton of evidence proving that he didn't hurt the kids he hung out with. This isn't like a Cosby situation where dozens of women came out with the allegations. MJ hung out with tons of kids and only 2 of them ever accused him of anything. And both kids were proven to have shitty parents that were on record proclaiming to want to take advantage of MJ.....
So why keep repeating that you know he's a molester when you have all of the evidence proving otherwise?
uncelestial
Member
This is the first time I've heard someone spontaneously utter this sentence in the wild instead of in philosophy texts, and it honestly made me laugh.
Haven't dug very deep into the evidence either way, but this is just lol
Spyder_Monkey
Banned
I know it shouldn't matter, but this guy is a terrible, terrible, youtuber.
Yes, that is true. Then again if he wasn't the most famous pop star ever a lot fewer people would've gone to court to falsely accuse him.
Tatsumi Oga
Banned
There's much more to Wade Robson.
Got this from another forum:
His career has been on the decline way before he made up his lies about MJ because he has some sort of mental illness. It seems genetical (his father was bipolar, his cousin on his father's side depressed - both committed suicide). This mental illness apparently has made him erratic in his job and he was pulling out of projects left and right. It also seems he just does not feel like working any more, he just wants a comfortable early retirement in Hawaii. But of course, you need money for that.
Hahahahaha....are you serious?
So people blindly parotting the media, the ones who don't do shit in terms of some research of their own, basically believing everything they read and see and basing their opinion on that...is not weird? Makes a shitload of sense my friend, it really does.
not at all.
There is no proof he didn't do it? Good lord, what the hell do you need? This video here shows quite enough already, him being completely exonerated should also be somewhat important, lol, there's tons of stuff out there that would make most people start to doubt his guilt a lot. So i ask again, what proof do you need? Oh you want the accusers to come out and admit it? That;s a good joke then.
Oh and actually...after i have been following the cases since 2003 and then reading all aboug the allegations in the 90s, i;ve been doubting every single piece of news that appears, regardless if it's a celebrity or not. I've had people around me saying...oh my what a sicko. He abused little girls, i hope he dies. And i was like...''you won't hear that from me. Let's first hear the rest of the complete story, let's not judge so quickly.'' So yeah....yeah not only because it's MJ.
mullet2000
Member
This has been and will always be a tough subject because, at the end of the day, people deeply want to believe Michael is innocent because they love his music so much.
Like, if Michael's actions were attributed to any other random 'average' male, I think people would be much, much less likely to even have this conversation, or hear the side of the story that this video is going for at all. People would probably lean 'too far' in the other direction and make up their minds that they definitely are a child predator at the drop of a hat, honestly. It's really only because it's Michael.
Michael was a weird character and I think there's a lot of truth to a lot of the defenses people give to why he interacted with children the way that he did, and how he interacted with children the way that he did, but I don't think it's remotely implausible that it could go the other way, either. For the sake of all those kids, I certainly hope he wasn't a child predator, obviously. But, it's hard for us to know one way or the other, and I'm not in any hurry to jump to Michael's defense just because he's Michael Jackson in a way that I wouldn't for an average Joe.
Interesting video, though.
Like, if Michael's actions were attributed to any other random 'average' male, I think people would be much, much less likely to even have this conversation, or hear the side of the story that this video is going for at all. People would probably lean 'too far' in the other direction and make up their minds that they definitely are a child predator at the drop of a hat, honestly. It's really only because it's Michael.
Michael was a weird character and I think there's a lot of truth to a lot of the defenses people give to why he interacted with children the way that he did, and how he interacted with children the way that he did, but I don't think it's remotely implausible that it could go the other way, either. For the sake of all those kids, I certainly hope he wasn't a child predator, obviously. But, it's hard for us to know one way or the other, and I'm not in any hurry to jump to Michael's defense just because he's Michael Jackson in a way that I wouldn't for an average Joe.
Interesting video, though.
Loved his music, but as a human being i don't think he was a good person. I think his wealth afforded him alot of escape routes through people he had on staff to the money he threw at those kids to settle out of court. He had sleepovers with kids and people have come out accusing him of rape. I don't care how much you pay me, there is no amount of money you could throw at me to make me want to make that statement. People accusing the parents of those victims in this thread of chasing money are no better than victim blamers in rape cases imo, it's gross. You can love the man's music and it can mean something very important to you, but you can't deny be lived a very suspicious lifestyle to say the least.
Hey OP I appreciate the thread but...
What bothers me is why so many people prefer the idea of someone being a paedophile over doing a little bit of research for the opposite, is it laziness or just ignorance?
...When you're dealing with narrowmindedness like this, it's kinda futile. Some people don't like having their rigid world view challenged. Shitty tabloid articles just feed into the confirmation bias and when they're proven false people ignore it. Can't handle the cognitive dissonance actual facts bring.
What bothers me is why so many people prefer the idea of someone being a paedophile over doing a little bit of research for the opposite, is it laziness or just ignorance?
There is enough factual information like him sleeping unsupervised with children that were not his own and possession of "art" books with naked young children in them to make it seemingly ridiculous to firmly take the "He definitely didn't do it" stance. On the other hand no one has proven he did it. At this point MJ has taken the secret to his grave one way or another.
I don't have a horse in this race, so I'll just bow out. My morbid curiosity about how staunchly a dead man is being defended considering his proclivity to spend unsupervised time alone in his bed with other people's children got the better of me.
he has taken his secret to the grave in a world that a decade or so ago would have claimed, with very good proof, that many millions of people believed he was a child predator.
Now that he's dead, we're finding out most of the evidence came out of art books and commercial media and a prosecutor's interpretation of what could be used to groom young children.
That's some secret.
Now that he's dead, we're finding out most of the evidence came out of art books and commercial media and a prosecutor's interpretation of what could be used to groom young children.
That's some secret.
You know, not to wade into the MJ debate, but I do find it questionable for you to be spending all of this time attacking others for believing in what you consider to be lies and misinformation spread about Micheal...and then posting an unsubstantiated and unsourced hit piece about someone else.
Tatsumi Oga
Banned
I keep being amazed by some of these comments. You are clearly of the opinion that he did it because.....he wasn't a good person because of his wealth he could settle with all these 'kids'. Right? First of all he only settled with the 90s accuser's family and Michael actually wanted the criminal trial to happen, this is something a lot of people don't know. Also...if your child's life has been destroyed by a sicko, would you accept money from them or would you rather see his head on a stake/thrown behind bars? WHY is none of you even bringing this up?
He wasn't a good person? Laughable. I guess donating tons of money to charities for humans and animals, visiting sick children during his tours, letting sick children have a great day at Neverland is something only a very bad person would do. Right? He had sleepovers yes, kids would lie in his bed and he would sleep on the floor and really....is it really simply impossible to think that this person maybe simply had no interest at all to abuse children?
Heh, yes these people accused him of molesting their child, all people that were proven to be liars. People that kept changing their story and became increasinly less believeable. Those people you mean?
Your reasoning that he wasnt a very good person is flawed as all hell. Let's say the man was indeed framed and completely innocent, yes yes i know...impossible to believe for some here...would you still say he probaly wasnt a good person?
hunchback
Member
I read the entire other MJ thread and now this one. I have been here a few year's and have never seen anyone so attached to a celebrity.
It's almost a little creepy. I can understand liking someone's music but between these two thread's you have typed at least a thousand words defending someone in every possible way. Are you family, friend or former business partner?
I wish you showed that passion in the gun threads. With your passion for a subject, you would be a great asset for gun control.
Exactly. And there will never be a smoking gun. I'm pretty confident Michael Jackson did something with children.
When i see people defending him, I think of the people that stood around waiting for him like the Holy Ghost was in the room saving their souls.
It's the same way Priests and authority figures get away with things. Pointing to Joe Jackson's (Michael's father) abuses does not make me disbelieve the victims and parents of the victims any more.
People were mentioning how Michael not being accused of sexually assaulting child stars somehow made him unlikely to take advantage of poor, dying children from broken homes that visited his playground and master bedroom. It's as if no one has followed the Sandusky case in how he only went after the children associated with his non-profit and not his own children etc.
Reacting to that other thread was just a means of disgust. I love Michael Jackson's music, but that does not mean I need to make excuses for him, just as no one should make excuses for Bill Cosby.
I believe Michael Jackson means a great deal to you, and that's totally fine. I have a hard time (personally) believing his innocence. I think there is something to be said about a man that settles out of court instead of facing trial head on, and I think there is something to be said about a 40-50 year old adult man that chooses to hold sleepovers with children. That's fucking creepy to me, I don't particularly know whether or not he raped some of those kids but I've got no reason not to believe it either.
elrechazado
Banned
Random forum post speculating about "genetical " problems. I'm convinced.
BibiMaghoo
Member
He was without question a very odd man by any normal reckoning but he always struck me as a soft individual who would balk at distressing other people. In interviews he found it very difficult to speak of things that hurt him, like a child in his hesitance to speak his mind. It seemed clear to most I think he wanted to be the child he never could when he was of that age, and that doesn't include molesting children in my view.
A very troubled man, but a kiddy fiddler I think not.
A very troubled man, but a kiddy fiddler I think not.
Do you realize how hard it is for kids to come forward on these claims?
Especially poor kids who would have been invited to his amusement park/home.
It took years for the women who were assaulted by Cosby to come forward and to actually get attention. Some of those women were respected people working in the industry.
Now imagine 7 year old, poor kid from LA trying to accuse Michael Jackson of abusing him. Imagine him even processing it and realizing that someone will care. Imagine that kid looking at Michael Jackson with the same otherworldly reverence that many adults felt about him at the time. Look at cases of sexual assault with just priests in charge of local parishes and compare the level of power and influence to Michael Jackson.
'I'm confident', 'I believe', etc. What do people base this on? I struggle to believe it's related to anything else than what they've read in newspapers.
Why compare the MJ case, to Cosby or Sandusky? There is empirical evidence of Sandusky's crimes and it looks like there will be in the case against Cosby. I've never seen anyone come back from doing research into MJ's case believing he was guilty. Never.
neurosyphilis
Definitely not an STD, as I'm a pure.
And without that "piece of shit" Joseph Jackson, Jackson 5 would've never happened, and the greatest musician of all time wouldn't have happened either.
-d0hv
There's proof that he's done some weird things, like drinking liquor around kids at his mansion. That's why I say "I believe". There isn't any hard evidence, but I know enough for me to believe he may have done some bad things to some kids. And rape evidence is hard to gather unless you can get a rape-kit immediately after. At this point it's Michaels words against his victims, and I'm siding with his victims knowing what I do know.
mattiewheels
And then the LORD David Bowie saith to his Son, Jonny Depp: 'Go, and spread my image amongst the cosmos. For every living thing is in anguish and only the LIGHT shall give them reprieve.'
I just don't like it when anyone concludes they think they know what happened, or they think it's obvious that this or that is the truth. Knowing that you know nothing is not a highly-regarded virtue these days.
In the first accusation he tried to have the criminal case before the civil case. They wouldn't allow it. He settled in the civil case and the criminal case was dropped.
In the second accusation he DID go to trial and was found not guilty.
What the fuck are you even on about?
Vincent Alexander
Member
Honestly asking: did you watch the video in the OP?
I did. Im a fan of razorfist.
Im also a fan of michael jackson. I used to dress up like him when i was a young lad, he was my idol for many years.
But the people vehemently defending him and actually criticizing the people condemning him, are no better than the people they are criticizing.
Theres no proof that he did molest children, but theres no proof he didnt, either.
Mechanized
Member
Yeah, music was totes worth MJ getting abused and all the mental trauma he suffered. My bad.
There is a podcast I listen to called Liar's City that discussed this in pretty good detail. It's definitely longer then OP's video but makes a strong case for MJ's innocence.
chicko1983
Member
lightskintwin
Banned
lol
cheststrongwell
my cake, fuck off
All this "Show me hard proof MJ DIDN'T molest kids!" shit is blowing my mind. Ridiculous.
Hero_of_the_Day
Member
How does one prove they're not a child molester?
Outside of being found not guilty in court, I mean.
Of course it's about money. If his bullshit is believed by a jury (should the case go to a trial) then he'll never need to work again.
His last big job was Demi Lovato's tour in 2011. He expected to be hired by MJ''s estate for a project (the same estate he claims in his court documents to of never known the MJ estate existed, yet he'd had contact with them. Just one of a number of his lies), instead he was overlooked.
After being overlooked, and going by his CV no work, he makes claims.
Such a shame you've nothing useful to post. I bet you don't even know the basics of the cases. He was such a child predator that the man desperate to put him behind bars had to break the law to put a case together... which ultimately failed. Infact, in ten years of searching the prosecution never had any evidence whatsoever. Numerous search warrants, FBI help and flying to other countries desperately to find a victim never yielded a thing.
BibiMaghoo
Member
A jury not guilty on all counts should be taken as proof. If it isn't, then what is the point?
InaudibleWhispa
Member
The treatment of Michael Jackson in the press reminds me a lot of Christopher Jefferies. He was wrongly accused of murder (the actual murderer admitted his guilt) and because he looked a bit weird he was hounded in the press. He successfully sued 8 of the biggest UK tabloids, who openly admitted in court that everything they printed about him being friends with pedophiles, spying on neighbours during sex and being inappropriate with his pupils was completely made up.
Obviously the Michael Jackson cases are different; he wasn't wrongly arrested by police but accused by alleged victims so there's no objective answers and there likely never will be. But it's easy to see why after years and years of tabloid tales people form conclusions, even if they're shown that most of what they've seen is a lie and a jury finds the accused not guilty. I've certainly never seen anything to convince me of his guilt, nor his innocence (though I lean that way) and although I understand posts like "why are people so vehemently defending an accused paedophile?", I also find it scary how easily people form a definitive conclusion of guilt for such an abhorrent crime in a case like this.
Obviously the Michael Jackson cases are different; he wasn't wrongly arrested by police but accused by alleged victims so there's no objective answers and there likely never will be. But it's easy to see why after years and years of tabloid tales people form conclusions, even if they're shown that most of what they've seen is a lie and a jury finds the accused not guilty. I've certainly never seen anything to convince me of his guilt, nor his innocence (though I lean that way) and although I understand posts like "why are people so vehemently defending an accused paedophile?", I also find it scary how easily people form a definitive conclusion of guilt for such an abhorrent crime in a case like this.
I doubt it'll happen. Jordan never stood a chance in the morals department if he inherited from his family. A materialistic mother, a father who was hated by all his children, only wanted money and wanted to make a music album about his son's supposed abuse. Add to that an Uncle who wrote a book about the whole saga and went promoting it on television.
As for Gavin, the whole Arvizo family are scum. A mother who trained her kids to lie and was guilty of welfare fraud. Gavin tried to get money from Jay Leno and Leno said he could hear the Mother telling Gavin what to say down the phone. Ironically, his brother is now facing a trial for assaulting his ex girlfriend and holding her at gunpoint.
The biggest irony of the whole Arvizo case is the mother, Janet, taking her husband's second name which just so happened to be Jackson. She liked to be known as Janet Jackson after her son was supposedly molested by Michael Jackson.
Joe's methods were downright animalistic. Hitting your children for getting a dance move wrong. Hitting them with ironing cords, shoes and sand in socks. He was a piece of shit for what he did to his children. Did he give up a lot to make them singers? Yes. He quit his job to focus on them full time. However, his methods were barbaric. He was an appalling Father. The kids weren't allowed to call him Dad it was Joe and Joe only. Calling MJ ugly and saying 'you didn't inherit that nose from my side of the family'.
On one Father's day he rung MJ to ask to loan $500,000 and when MJ refused he banged on about making MJ the star he became which, as MJ said, was only half true.
One of the worst things he ever did was in regards to the boys leaving their window open at night. He told them not to due to the fact somebody may get in. They continued to do it and his way of dealing with it was climbing up through the window in the middle of the night, in a mask, and shouting at the top of his lungs.
Due to Joe's fatherhood all the kids tried to get away from him as soon as possible. He's partly to blame for Janet's early marriage to James Debarge which didn't go well and Latoya marrying Jack Gordon who abused her both physically and mentally.
MJ never would of been a big solo artist were it upto Joe. He never wanted the boys to split up.
Joe was, in some respects, an excellent manager. His Fathering methods however are downright inexcusable. Huge credit to him for what The Jackson 5 became, but his methods left deep mental scars on his children. MJ, Janet and Latoya especially. Imagine making your son (in this case, MJ) regurgitate when you'd enter the room due to the fear you put inside him.
Tatsumi Oga
Banned
Quite unfortunete but not surprising at all that you had to call it creepy. I have never denied that i did quite some research, i've read a lot and thus spend a lot of time doing that too. I like to read up on things, not just hear one story and go like ''ah ok...so this dude molested children.'' no, i want to read up on it as much as i can and then try to base my opinion on that. I will also not deny that i have been a fan ever since i was like....5 years old or so. Yup i realize people are going to call you biased and what not, but i really don't care about that. So me being a fan got me interested even more in doing my own research. Cause even though some would say ..''hey, even if this person did do the crime, you can still enjoy their music/watch their movies/shows'' but i see that differently. Way differently. Like i said before it's quite clear that MJ put his life into his songs, his lyrics. His music was autobiographical like i said before. If it would ever be proven that he did abuse children....i would listen to his music very differently...if at all to be honest.
It;s not just when it's about MJ and these allegations that i am passionate, if it's something i really appreciate like gaming, i can write walls of text as well. I also like to describe things in detail and be as clear as possible. I tend to write big walls of text for certain things.
So if i ever write a ton of text about a music album, movie, tv show, person.....you might as well call that a little creepy then too.
Like i have said already and others here too....Michael wanted the criminal trial to go forward, doesn't this mean anything to you? Because it should. There were plenty of reasons for him back then to make that settlement. I rather not go explain that all here, i think the video already does. The video also shows clearly the agenda of the family of the accusing boy. So how much does that settlement really all mean in the end? Should he have gone for a full trial? Oh sure and i bet he regretted that too and again....criminal trial? Why would he not do anything he can to avoid that if he was guilty as sin?
Sleepovers where he would sleep on the floor. Yes it's quite unusual and no it's not something i would do. Does this make him a child abuser? I asked before in this thread, is it really that impossible to believe he may not have had any interest in touching the children during these sleepovers?
I know, right? What the hell are these people expecting to get? The accusers on tape admitting they lied about everything? I seriously am baffled by these replies. It is indeed quite fucking ridiculous.
Even if Stephen Avery is eventually going to be exonerated by a jury (Making a murderer) without any hard evidence for us to see, will we know for sure he was innocent? Michael Peterson....if he gets exonerated which i believe hasn't happened yet, will we know for sure he did not push his wife down the stairs?
As for the MJ case, the jury got to see all the evidence and heard all the stories from the accusing family, the constantly changing stories from a family that already had a history of being liars. The mother had accuses a security guard from JCpennies of abuse, . Was all lies though. From all that, the jury concluded that Michael did not hurt these children. People still want to believe Michael hurt children though, that much is obvious....but who? Which victims? All these 'victims' some uninformed folks here talk about where all liars. It was all proven in court.
Hero_of_the_Day
Member
You shouldn't have even wasted your time responding to that shit post. We're on a forum, people shouldn't have to defend their choice of topics they choose to post in.
I honestly think Micheal Jackson highlights the naivety of the average person when it comes to the entertainment business . It's not some fairytale , shits is a rough industry run by some ruthless people . Razor Fist made an excellent point highlighting that at the time people didn't understand the gravity of Jackson buying the Beatles catalogue along with other large Sony properties . Jackson was very smart to be paranoid , sadly he didn't have a support system to keep himself healthy and away from the trappings like drug addiction when someone is exposed to the much pressure and stress .
Straight Edge
Member
If this was a he said she said college rape scenario, the victim doubters would be skewered alive by mods.
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