Not that.
I was in AP history in high school and we only learned about Canada from first contact to WWII or so. Asians did not make an appearance. Might just be where I live though.
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The New Yorker - The Two Asian Americas
- Thread starter El Sloth
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wasn't until i was in first and second year university that i was formally taught about the komagata maru & the atrocities of the residential schools for first nations
in high school i took it upon myself to learn a little more and do a project on the railroads in Canada, as it was only momentarily mentioned. hit a nerve with me considering im a direct descendant of one of the "foreign workers" employed
in my opinion we honestly arent taught enough as Canadians about the discrimination our country has taken part in
I've seen this all the time life growing up. Asians always sticking with other Asians, Asians dating only other Asians. I was actually the token black guy in an Asian group for a good year of high school. I was pretty much the only non Asian they seemed to deal with in their personal time I'm not even sure why.
That's me right now. I don't have any friends that aren't Korean or Chinese, and I'm black. I have noticed that they often hang out together but I've also noticed that Africans hang out together too in the exact same way (in my school at least). Might be because many of them are immigrants though.
hodayathink
Member
I'm talking US here, and even in Honors history (also, the basic history class is US History, so Canada wouldn't be discussed at all, really) we basically just got Slave Trade, Trail of Tears, Chinese Internment, and Jim Crow.
Borboleta Amarela
Member
Great article. Everyone should read more on issues like this. Really puts things in perspective and I can understand why strong communities developed and are still maintained today. It was a way of survival.
Although racism and xenophobia are far from being over (everywhere in the world), it's difficult to argue that we live in the same world and great strides have been made. Everyone has to do their part on correcting this issue and stop the blame game. We have to be open about history, accept it and not make the same mistakes. However, at what point do the newer generations (and hopefully, not racist/xenophobic ones) deserve to be put together with the former ones if they aren't the same, share different values and advocate for change?
Racism today is different, both qualitatively and quantitatively but I believe we're walking in the right direction but, as I said previously, efforts have to be made on all parts.
Although racism and xenophobia are far from being over (everywhere in the world), it's difficult to argue that we live in the same world and great strides have been made. Everyone has to do their part on correcting this issue and stop the blame game. We have to be open about history, accept it and not make the same mistakes. However, at what point do the newer generations (and hopefully, not racist/xenophobic ones) deserve to be put together with the former ones if they aren't the same, share different values and advocate for change?
Racism today is different, both qualitatively and quantitatively but I believe we're walking in the right direction but, as I said previously, efforts have to be made on all parts.
Borboleta Amarela
Member
If you can't talk with your "white friends" about these issues, they're not your friends. Also, what you said is racist.
You really nailed it. Great stuff. Being singled out is not a pleasant sensation.
That reasoning has always rubbed me the wrong why. When Asians or Latinos hang out in groups, it's negatively considered a clique, but then shouldn't we criticize white people hanging out together?
The other thing about "they always hang out with each other and I don't think they want to hang out with me", it goes both ways. If an Asian person sees a group of white people not reaching out, that person will feel alienated as well and seek a group they feel is more welcoming.
Common occurrence illustrated above, whenever Asians call out racism, they tend to be labeled reverse racists instead.
There's a huge amount of walking on eggshells when speaking about Asian American racism. You can't portray yourself as "too" oppressed, otherwise people come out of the woodwork complaining how dare you compare yourself to other more-oppressed races, your issues can wait while we address other peoples more-pressing issues first, etc.
There's a huge blind spot even among ultra-liberal activists in this regard.
Dr.Guru of Peru
played the long game
The Komgata Maru was in our text books. Maybe you weren't paying attention.
Not Asian, but as a minority it's rare to speak to white friends about it, because for one thing we be around our friends to get away from shit and more often then not they just don't have the frame of reference and you end up becoming an advocate and chronicler of your race. Nothing wears out your soul quicker then being the spokesmen for your race.
Dreams-Visions
Member
church.
Angelus Errare
Banned
Dreams-Visions
Member
So I suppose the question is...
are the cliques and communities most often formed in response to external racial and cultural pressures...or internal ones?
or...what proportion of the former vs the later? Some of my SEA friends point to a healthy amount racism/prejudice brought in by the "fresh off the boat" SEA crowds that sometimes (or often?) come with a ton of preconceived notions about other groups causing a clear disinterest in associating with said other ethnic groups and a more insular preference. Additionally, some groups come with an inherent opinion of superiority of their own groups' cultures and ethnicities. First and second generationers in particular. The parents of my Indian and Korean friends are notorious for this as they feel the pressure of bringing home a girl/guy of their own ethnicity or accepting an arranged relationship under threat of being disowned or some shenanigans. And so while there is clearly a standard-issue amount of racism that comes with the minority experience, it seems a bit near-sighted to disregard some of these other elements that contribute to the "outsider" perspective, no?
Uh....okay? You do realise there's more than one textbook, right?
But I thought books was the plural of book.
darkazcura
Member
There is nothing racist about what that poster said.
It doesn't exhaust me too much, but pretty much this.
I was giving him the benefit of the doubt and assumed he meant his textbook. If he's talking about all textbooks, he's just flat out wrong.
Oh. OK. I just noticed the s at the end of book.
@Dreams-Visions - I think drawing a dichotomy between standard-issue racism versus culturally-imported baggage isn't a meaningful distinction, unless you're writing a thesis or something.
There's no standard "one-size-fits-all" model of racism and for their targeted groups, some groups are tied to immigration/diaspora, some groups are tied to forced migration and labor, some are based on colonization. The dominant culture itself has baggage and cultural assumptions for each of these groups. So the degree to which a person affected by racism and how much desire they have to seek refuge in an in-group (or "clique") will be very personal.
Plus you have to think about basic quality-of-life for any new immigrant. How do you find halal/vegetarian/kosher restaurants nearby? Continuing your worship at Hindu temples or mosques. Finding a local real-estate agent who speak the language to help with signing documents and explaining housing regulations. Enrolling their children in classes to learn their traditional language and culture. Most of these services can only be provided by the in-group.
Plus on a psychological level, people do seek out others based on similarities. Think about American students forming groups when they attend foreign universities. Think about how you might feel if you immigrated to another country, and what would look most inviting when you got there.
So answering:
are the cliques and communities most often formed in response to external racial and cultural pressures...or internal ones?
Column A? Column B? Both? Can't really say.
There's no standard "one-size-fits-all" model of racism and for their targeted groups, some groups are tied to immigration/diaspora, some groups are tied to forced migration and labor, some are based on colonization. The dominant culture itself has baggage and cultural assumptions for each of these groups. So the degree to which a person affected by racism and how much desire they have to seek refuge in an in-group (or "clique") will be very personal.
Plus you have to think about basic quality-of-life for any new immigrant. How do you find halal/vegetarian/kosher restaurants nearby? Continuing your worship at Hindu temples or mosques. Finding a local real-estate agent who speak the language to help with signing documents and explaining housing regulations. Enrolling their children in classes to learn their traditional language and culture. Most of these services can only be provided by the in-group.
Plus on a psychological level, people do seek out others based on similarities. Think about American students forming groups when they attend foreign universities. Think about how you might feel if you immigrated to another country, and what would look most inviting when you got there.
So answering:
are the cliques and communities most often formed in response to external racial and cultural pressures...or internal ones?
Column A? Column B? Both? Can't really say.
Borboleta Amarela
Member
I hear you but the thing is, the poster admitted to not bringing out racism when talking with "white people".
I'm not calling out racism because he's complaining about being in the receiving end of racism/discrimination. I don't doubt the struggles of asians, however extrapolating that, based on those experiences, every "white person" is likely to be like that... well, that's why I'm calling out racism. For someone who wants to be seen as a person first, not such a good job walking the walk...
darkazcura
Member
Like I said already, that wasn't racist. You have a misunderstanding of what it is if you thought that was significant enough to point out. She was making claims that it is more difficult to explain and help make understand the issues her culture faces in this country to people not within her culture. That is not racist whatsoever. If you aren't a minority, there are some things you simply won't understand without being in our shoes, and I have no issue with that. Pointing that out as a reason why minorities tend to hang out with other minorities is not racism.
The person you most recently quoted brings up a point that is a big issue, and I have seen it first hand a lot on these forums, other forums, and in real life. It sometimes does feel like Asian Americans almost aren't allowed to bring up any race issues because they are deemed not as significant as other race issues. Who else would you expect us to talk to if that is the general feeling?
She's not bringing up racism, more saying that minorities tend to avoid talking "shop" when among white people.
There's definitely white people who can talk at length about racism intelligently, but just think about how this conversation started off on the wrong track, and why a lot of minorities don't bother bringing stuff like this up.
There's definitely white people who can talk at length about racism intelligently, but just think about how this conversation started off on the wrong track, and why a lot of minorities don't bother bringing stuff like this up.
I'm not even sure how you jump to brand someone as racist for not wanting to engage in a lengthy discussion or note issues that are only relevant because of race to people who generally lack context. As others have already pointed out, it's exhausting, usually goes nowhere, and often backfires, pretty much exactly like how you made the issue somehow entirely about you.
So, for now, rather than also calling you racist, I will instead use fuckwit. Now, being a fuckwit isn't
1. rub some brain cells together and maybe consider what people are saying
2. double down
No one is saying they're intentionally excluding white -- or any other -- people from a discussion about minorites. But when they share their experience and your first response is to label them racist, you're probably a fuckwit.
XiaNaphryz
LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
I don't think that's what bunny's trying to say...she's just saying it's a subject she doesn't bring up with her particular friends, not all whites in general. Does not wanting to discuss various racism issues you experience on a regular basis with someone outside your ethnicity necessarily make that person racist?
Some of my friends, regardless of ethnicity or background, I'd feel comfortable discussing certain issues perfectly fine. Others, it's not something I would necessarily bring up. That goes for all topics - not just matters of race but politics, gender issues, religion, etc. Naturally, some topics are easier to discuss with others if they've shared similar life experiences. Others are, again naturally, harder to discuss if someone has no shared experiences.
Seductivpancakes
Member
This honestly sounds a bit like victim blaming.
Growing up in NYC, one of the most diverse cities in the world, I'd see people of all race hangout only with their own people in public school. I felt the same why whenever I approached a group of other people, "they always hang out with each other and I don't think they want to hangout with me".
I just started college after a decade from graduating high school, and I still see the same thing on campus.
I think me saying you not hanging with other groups due to your own fear is victim blaming. I also went to hs in NYC and sat with everyone. Maybe you should tell us more so we can judge your character better.
This is starting to get nasty. Let me try a different tact, what about your group made people of different backgrounds hang out together? Were you guys into sports, gaming? Were you guys more extraverts or introverts? Was your neighborhood more integrated or segregated, and what were the racial percentages at the school?
Seductivpancakes
Member
I never said I didn't hangout with other people outside of my race.
And how exactly did you decide it was time to point fingers at me to judge my character in this conversation?
Be blunt and honest is how I feel about it. Waiting for people to become enlightened rarely works
Borboleta Amarela
Member
We seem to have a fundamentally different understanding of what racism/discrimination is, however that being a problem means that it can be resolved. Just throwing in the towel won't help anyone in the long run. What is needed is debate and communication.
I have no doubt it is difficult to explain all these differences to outsiders. I believe that even if you come across a thousand typical "white persons" and only 1 of them gets to better understand your culture and history, that's something isn't it? No need to put them all together and decide a priori that it isn't worth it...you're just perpetuating divisiveness.
You're pretty quick to judge if I know or don't know what it's like to be "in your shoes".
I've lived in China and I've been subjected to all the quirky remarks about being a foreigner, about not being trustworthy compared to chinese, about not understanding the culture because I'm not chinese, etc...I've been through it all and it's hard. Really brings you down but I've also made some life-long friends, who overcame their unknown racial discrimination little by little.
I have two good friends that are Chinese-American and I've always been weirded out by their own explanations of things. "I'm not a good driver," the wife says, "But then I'm Asian!" It feels like a lot of things are explained away with that kind of talk: "Oh, it's because we're asian!"
I guess this negative self-perception)is a result of the systematic racism. But do I (as a white guy) call this out? I mean, it's ridiculous. I've pointed it out before that it's silly to explain things away because of your race, but is it even my place to do so? It makes me uncomfortable that these two incredibly awesome people kind of feed into the casual racism against themselves.
I guess this negative self-perception)is a result of the systematic racism. But do I (as a white guy) call this out? I mean, it's ridiculous. I've pointed it out before that it's silly to explain things away because of your race, but is it even my place to do so? It makes me uncomfortable that these two incredibly awesome people kind of feed into the casual racism against themselves.
Could he be joking self deprecating style?
Borboleta Amarela
Member
You're a charmer for sure, maybe you should double down on the insults to further prove your point.
darkazcura
Member
Your missing the point based on the bolded. Several others have already spoke to it. The original post was about why certain cultural groups stick to their own cultural groups for the most part when going out and what not. It's not because people are throwing in the towel. It's that it is exhausting to "debate" and explain certain cultural quirks. No one is saying all white people are racist or that no white people can have an intelligent conversation about it...only that sometimes minorities don't really want to talk about it that often so they tend to attract to people who "get it." This isn't uncommon with any group whether it be based on culture or interests (gaming, sports, etc).
Again there is nothing racist about saying you like to hang out with people who simply understand your culture on a similar level right off the bat. That was the basis of the conversation, and there is nothing wrong with wanting that. No one said anything bad about "white people" on the large so I still don't understand (along with many others) why you went there.
RevengeOfDoh
Banned
No, it really isn't.
No.
It's not remotely the same thing and that's the type of language people use to discredit and shutdown any type of discussion on race. If an African slave said that they hated white people, would you say that they're racist?
Not really directed at you, but just because a place is "diverse," doesn't mean that it's not immune from societal norms. NYC is diverse, but still has HUGE problems with racism just like any other "diverse" city.
Borboleta Amarela
Member
I misunderstood your tone on the first post. I get everything you said. I also get that you don't have to become a preacher on the struggles of asians. I take this issue very seriously because It's something that affects me directly everyday also and I might overheat easily.
At the same time, more diverse locales allow immigrant populations more freedom. Either to assimilate or create cultural enclaves. Between 2 options - a diverse city or a location where I might not see another Asian American for days, I know which I'd prefer.
RevengeOfDoh
Banned
Here's the thing: It was your choice to be in China, whereas for a vast majority of Asians/Asian-Americans, it isn't, especially if they were coming from areas with violent conflicts. Even then, I'm assuming that your time in China was temporary, so those things you experienced isn't something you really have to experience anymore. Now, imagine growing up in a situation like that with virtually no escape from it. It gets old pretty fucking quick. I'm not gong to dogpile you though and others are more patient to address these things than me, so I'm going to check out.
Oh for sure! I grew up in a Chinatown and I miss it every single day. I actually feel depressed everytime I go in or drive through because of all the gentrification. It makes me wonder how long it'll be around for my kid to experience it and be around other Asians besides family.
Borboleta Amarela
Member
Over the years, I've passed through a spectrum of emotions and approaches to this issue. I've embraced being the cool foreigner at first, then started to get annoyed by it, then tried to be accepted by being like other chinese, that didn't work so I had a time where I was really down and, with time, I started to not worry too much about it.
Of course I won't start a convo with every chinese "Can you believe that someone said X about foreigners" but my approach has become pretty blunt (although tactful) whenever I witness some racist remark about foreigners. If they're put off, not my problem. At the very least they might learn something...
Sometimes I feel being blunt and honest rarely works either, that also requires people to be enlightened.
RevengeOfDoh
Banned
It's fun being the angry Asian man sometimes, but yeah, it would require the other party to actually give a shit and a vast majority of people don't. Time is better spent within your enclave a lot of the times.
On another note, I saw this thing on tv about how the father of a rape victim started a non-profit focused on educating males on the issue of consent. He said, "Rape isn't a women's issue; it's a men's/male issue" or something to that effect. He then went on to say that with all of the sexual assault going on, what is it about our culture that makes males the predominant perpetrators of sexual assault. While this sentiment isn't new when it comes to anti-racism, it could help others have an easier time of understanding the issue a tiny bit better.
Borboleta Amarela
Member
Unfortunately, I still deal with it on a daily basis and will have to for the rest of my life. I live with my GF and have to deal with her family and friends (which are all asian) multiple times a day. I rarely see my friends and spend most of the day with asians. It's been the better part of a decade now but I'm still amazed how oblivious they can still be. Really puts things in perspective.
It's like we have two separate lives: the asian part of life (where everything has to be about asian culture and heritage) and the not asian part of life. The thing is, my non-asian part is getting smaller and smaller.
Borboleta Amarela
Member
I think you do understand what it's like to be a minority.
I am not saying this in a way to dismiss what you went through because trust me, I am of Chinese descent and I think I understand that racism is not a white people thing.
I grew up in America. I'm American. What you experienced in China is basically my entire life, with the added bonus that I'm actually American. It seems like you, too, have gone through the different phrases of how you choose to deal with being a "foreigner." At a certain point... I just gave up trying to educate and it's mostly just bitching from me. Like you said, after awhile, the general obliviousness from the hegemony that never had to really question how they thought... *my* reaction is just to throw my hands up and not confront it, because... I like my friends, and I don't think nonmalicious racism is something drop friends for.
But yeah, I think you get what it means to be a minority, and hopefully what I said makes more sense to you in the context which it was said.
I'm not american so I can only speculate on the struggles there based on experiences like yours. I can understand the reason behind the "escape" into the asian community since you don't have to be subjected for the millionth time to, as you put it, nonmalicious racism or even blatant racism.
I completely understand your point now and I believe it's a healthy approach. Let's hope that our children won't have to go through the same things but that's on us to show them the way too.
PassiveObserver
Member
I was in the Upper Haight last weekend and this white homeless person asked me if I could read English in a mocking tone. This shit still happens, even in SF.
I stand in solidarity with the Asian races to destroy white supremacy.
Did not have a lot of Asians in my hometown growing up but people would openly mock them. It's still pretty much accepted to mock Asian people. Living in Chinatown there is always some random jackass every now and then yelling faux Chinese gibberish just to start shit with people.
Did not have a lot of Asians in my hometown growing up but people would openly mock them. It's still pretty much accepted to mock Asian people. Living in Chinatown there is always some random jackass every now and then yelling faux Chinese gibberish just to start shit with people.
TwEE-N-Toast
Banned
Admittedly I'm probably blind to it, but got any links to this Gaf Anti-Asian sentiment.
RevengeOfDoh
Banned
From a homeless person, I can kinda let go because there's a pretty high chance there's a mental illness issue. On the otherhand, I had and adult while male with mental illness call me a gook when I was discussing an issue with his father's bill. Oddly enough, the father always seemed like a really nice guy, but after that, I gotta wonder where the son picked that up.
I have an even better one for you: I was in a cemetery a couple weeks ago for a late ching ming and some older white lady with a British accent in a Cadillac with two even older black women asked me if I spoke english. I said, "sometimes." Turns out they were lost and couldn't get out.
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