I think there is also something to be said about the advantage the state has in holding someone and placing them in a cage while awaiting trial. This pressure helps incentivize plea deals etc. The isolation before conviction and the conditions for most people in the prison seem designed to favor the prosecution. You have to have a lawyer (money) who is actively walking you through every step, for example, not having you walk out in a jumpsuit. Not talking to officers of the law using your ignorance to make you incriminate yourself.
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The Night Of - new crime limited series - HBO Sundays - 90 on Metacritic
- Thread starter Cornballer
- Start date
Spooky Scary Skeleton
Member
I didn't get this episode. The consistency is off. Exactly how long has it been since the last episode in the show's time? Because the last episode ended with John chasing Duane Reade through an alley and now his name is never mentioned in this episode all of sudden and they are focusing on hearse driver now.
Yeah we as audiences of crime dramas have been programmed to assume innocence when given very little information about a character. If the show merely suggests innocence, we go along with it. Just like a jury, we watched the first ep and immediately judged Nas. I personally thought he was innocent based on what I saw, but now I'm wondering if that's the case. This whole time I've been expecting some breakthrough, Turturro or Chandra will find some lead or witness or something that will exonerate him. But now I'm thinking that's the exact trope this show is turning on its head. Innocent or not, the system is flawed and not every person who goes to jail deserves to (and vice versa).
ZackieChan
Member
Villains? I dunno - the evidence seems pretty stacked against Nas, to the point where it doesn't make a ton of sense to explore other options. They have limited resources. You only think he didn't do it, because you were following him on that night and he's the main character.
metalslimer
Member
Man I continue to think theveryone show completely lacks the consistency that the first episode showed. There have been pieces that come close but there hasn't been a truly great episode where everything fit together.
Hope the last 2 make up for it.
Hope the last 2 make up for it.
bigmit3737
Member
I agree with a lot of your points.
However I think Stone trying to take care of the cat as well as the eczema parts are meant to fit the levity part. I found the payoff to be funny ; he brags to his group about the cure and is so happy to wear his shoes.
I'm also starting to get the impression that Nas is not who we think he is. He might of not killed the girl but he might end up killing someone in prison, showing that he's capable of murder. Maybe the writers want us to end up rooting against Nas even if he is innocent because he learn what type of person he really is.
Not really sure though.
holygeesus
Banned
I don't really agree with people saying the 'cliffhanger' from last week wasn't addressed - it was...last week! He chased the guy and lost him. End of episode.
Also, you could argue that Naz's transformation feels contrived, but it is a TV drama, at the end of the day, not a documentary, and it has a lot of ground to cover in just 8 episodes. Of course some aspects will feel rushed. If you accept that Naz was a bit of a scally to start with, then it feels far less forced.
Also, you could argue that Naz's transformation feels contrived, but it is a TV drama, at the end of the day, not a documentary, and it has a lot of ground to cover in just 8 episodes. Of course some aspects will feel rushed. If you accept that Naz was a bit of a scally to start with, then it feels far less forced.
thought it was pretty obvious with the flash of the uv light at the end that john just lost duane and went home as well lol
Messofanego
Banned
Riz Ahmed was great in Britz, that's how i got introduced to him. Good in Four Lions and The Reluctant Fundamentalist, too.
ZackieChan
Member
I think something like this would take time to get to trial, anyway. We're seeing a condensed timeline, I think.
RustyNails
Member
I dunno I got the opposite feeling last episode. Seeing that guy getting blown kinda shook him. I think that sets off things in motion.
ZackieChan
Member
Possibly the shiv in the neck, too
Askherserenity
Member
This episode kinda reminded me of Serial actually. Similar to Serial, we start off the show not really knowing anything about Naz and then we find out he's done something any other dumb high school kid would do and then we all start to suspect him.
Another thing, I know a lot of people are bringing up the whole Naz breaking bad thing is happening way too fast but we just aren't sure how much time is going by each episode. It has to be over the course of awhile because no one is going to go through such a drastic body change in a couple days.
They only have 8 episodes to do this so I'm sure that's the reason why it feels a bit rushed for us.
Also, he's just a dumb high school kid in prison who's basically being told what to do.
Completely understand the complaints though.
Another thing, I know a lot of people are bringing up the whole Naz breaking bad thing is happening way too fast but we just aren't sure how much time is going by each episode. It has to be over the course of awhile because no one is going to go through such a drastic body change in a couple days.
They only have 8 episodes to do this so I'm sure that's the reason why it feels a bit rushed for us.
Also, he's just a dumb high school kid in prison who's basically being told what to do.
Completely understand the complaints though.
Possible, but it's hard to do that effectively in 8 episodes.
They didn't give us much on Naz to begin with, as we're more in the eyes of Turturro here, discovering Naz as we go along, so it'll be hard to completely 180 the character, when we're not even sure in what direction we're going in the first place.
To see an example on how to do this well, look at Breaking Bad: It starts off with Walter White getting kicked by life while he's down, from all sides; you root for him at the start of the show, despite some bad decisions, he's still a good guy trying to salvage whatever he has left in his life, or so it seems.
Then they slowly but surely push his arrogant side out, a seed that they had planted early on, until it becomes a damn tree of megalomania, and by the end of season 6, you're almost sad he's "only" dying, and not having more coming to him.
And of course, Breaking Bad is set in a pulpy, exaggerated reality, so you have to account for that, but that only proves my point further, if anything, as a more realistic show, should take even more time to develop.
Fluffhead14
Member
he's not "breaking bad".
he's trying to survive. you think he wanted to shove drugs up his ass? what do you think was the alternative if he were to say "no" to freddy?
he's trying to survive. you think he wanted to shove drugs up his ass? what do you think was the alternative if he were to say "no" to freddy?
Naz confronted Bodie and Duane when he was with Andrea too, so it's not like they only showed him to be meek until prison. He was always capable of this stuff, and now he's being encouraged to use it, but I agree on the tats, I don't believe he would have gotten knuckle tats.
Shouldn't the defence have built up a case before trial started however? They're only now looking at security footage and following leads?
Shouldn't the defence have built up a case before trial started however? They're only now looking at security footage and following leads?
Soooooo contrived. You have one guy who is basically like the fucking r/TheRedPill version of Hannibal Lecter, and speaks only in the creepiest of metaphors; then the stepfather is spun into another bullseye suspect for the killing. Both in the span of 20 minutes....
I was actually joking as I watched the show during the finance office scene. When he was like "oh and another thing" I said out loud "he mentioned that he was going to murder her" and then the actual line was "over my dead body." That shit was pure network TV stuff right there, definitely not good at all.
I sincerely hope at this point that that is the direction they are going. I have my doubts that they have the balls to sort of.... betray (?) the viewers like that. But I would appreciate it so much more than pulling some perfect suspect outta the hat at the last minute. Which seemed to be the focus of this week's episode. But I hope those really were just red herrings.
Glad I'm not the only one who still calls him that.
BlueTsunami
there is joy in sucking dick
Surprising to see people find Naz's transformations as unrealistic. If some career criminal throws you a lifesaving deal you bet you'll conform. Naz is still in a precarious position too. All it would take is a request from Freddy that goes way out of bounds for Naz for this whole prison family facade to crumble. The trial at this point feels like a race against time before Naz actually gets into bad shit in prison.
As far as the actual murder, I dig that its still very ambiguous as to what really happened with Naz that night. This show wouldn't be as compelling as it is if we knew from episode two or three that Naz was completely innocent.
As far as the actual murder, I dig that its still very ambiguous as to what really happened with Naz that night. This show wouldn't be as compelling as it is if we knew from episode two or three that Naz was completely innocent.
pretty sure thats the message of the show
It's not that it's unrealistic it's that it's just not shown on screen
The show goes from a kid that kicked some dude out of revenge who burned a part of his skin to literatly almost killing him. Then the next part he's just acting like a huge douchebag standing infront of the TV blocking the view like he's the king... like really?
The spectator isn't supposed to imagine what is going on off-screen, you don't become a douchebag once you have the liberty to beat somebody up. The show needs to show how and why he is acting like this, which is failing in my opinion. This isn't a movie like StarWars TFA where you can just have (imo) terrible characters like Rey who is unjustifiably overpowered. The Night Of is about 8 hours, there is plenty of time show this.
I didn't like hearse guy. Came across way too over the top.
While there is a bit of a rushed feeling, I rather appreciate that the show isn't holding the viewer's hand to walk them through everything, myself.
We know the kid has been bullied a long time. We know he's had people come at him both in and out of school. We know there is a desire to strike back. We know there are questions that he's not as squeaky clean as we had expected. We know he fought off getting Freddie's help for as long as we could. And we know he isnt very good at thinking through how what he does/how he looks might come across to others.
All of these pieces are things the show has presented in some way, not only to lay the groundwork for how he would give in when thrown into the prison situation, but also to keep the question of how innocent he may be up in the air. I'm ok with how that's presented, along with considering some of the concessions for time.
Totally disagree about SW too, but that's a topic (that's already been beat to death) for other threads, lol.
While there is a bit of a rushed feeling, I rather appreciate that the show isn't holding the viewer's hand to walk them through everything, myself.
We know the kid has been bullied a long time. We know he's had people come at him both in and out of school. We know there is a desire to strike back. We know there are questions that he's not as squeaky clean as we had expected. We know he fought off getting Freddie's help for as long as we could. And we know he isnt very good at thinking through how what he does/how he looks might come across to others.
All of these pieces are things the show has presented in some way, not only to lay the groundwork for how he would give in when thrown into the prison situation, but also to keep the question of how innocent he may be up in the air. I'm ok with how that's presented, along with considering some of the concessions for time.
Totally disagree about SW too, but that's a topic (that's already been beat to death) for other threads, lol.
?
That's beyond my point, I'm talking about how you can have a character the audience is supposed to root for, turn around and have the audience despise them by the end, in an organic way.
It's not about "breaking bad", it's about revealing a part of yourself that was always there, and let it grow out, in a manner that feels natural.
It never really felt like Naz had a real beef with Freddy at all, infact, Freddy seems like a pretty reasonable guy so far.
Sure he probably wouldn't have done it in a situation with less pressure, but the way it's presented in the show, it really feels like it took very little mental pressure for him to let that change happen.
Psychologically speaking, i think they should've pushed him to the brim of sanity more, to make everything else feel more believable.
Also, he didn't shove drugs up his ass, he swallowed them, but that's irrelevant, i guess.
Exactly.
You can imply a lot of stuff in a show, sure, but what they skimmed over offscreen, is essentially some of the pillars of this character's development.
I don't think anyone is saying prison can't transform a person, but you still have to sell it, when you're representing it on screen.
I wouldn't call it hand holding, it's simply the stuff that it's important to see, because a lot of other scenes they had, had little value in comparison.
I disagree for the most part. I think there's enough there, for example, to lay the groundwork for the TV scene. Not hard to believe someone like him, who has been through what he's been through, would react like that when he's suddenly a person with power and protection, especially in a place where his initial helplessness was magnified.
Yeah see, the problem is i don't think they sold that well.
The most distressing moment felt like the one in the police station, with the cop pushing him around, telling him to get naked.
Even the boiling water scene, could've been pushed a bit more, to really sell his psychological struggle.
It doesn't help that Freddy immediately takes a liking to the guy, and asks very little in return (and doesn't come off as very threatening in general).
All that is true. But the biggest thing with them not adequately showing his transformation is this: If it's going to be the kind of show that doesn't spell things out for the viewer, it has to be consistent. And it isn't. Episode 6 was probably the worst with respect to this. The interviews with other potential suspects were so completely on the nose and obvious it wasn't even funny.
The hearse driver who was basically a cookie cutter serial killer woman-hater.
The stepfather who is a violent and threatening money-grubber.
The man whose criminal calling card is using a knife in all his crimes!
So, you can't really justify Naz's hasty transformation by being like "it's just the kind of show that doesn't spell everything out for the viewer" because in other parts of the show, the viewer is treated like a total idiot.
jasminlovesyoux
Banned
I was absolutely hooked from the very first episode, but every subsequent ep has made me like it less and less. I'm still going to watch the final two but I'm hard pressed to be as invested as I was in the beginning.
Don Draper's Hat
Member
This is precisely how I feel.
I feel they did. I certainly felt like I was seeing the helplessness of the situation from the moment he was
in the cop car to his first few scenes in prison. I think they did a good job showing all that and building to it as well, capping with the officer basically telling him he was going to die when he was getting processed
Also feel like the Freddy stuff is a good example of what I mean about giving the information without walking the viewer through it. Freddy is not a good guy. Freddy is most definitely threatening.
He's threatening enough to control all those inmates. He beats half to death those he is unhappy with. Theres's a reason he choose Nas, and it has as much to do with his vulnerability as it does his intelligence. And of course he immediately starts to use him for stuff like being a drug mule.
I don't think it's an accident he uses the same 'make a proper convict out of you' line as the other guy.
Freddy isn't necessarily Nas moving from a threatening situation to a stable one, it's him moving from to a different type of threatening situation. And between the beatings and the drugs and him putting Nas in just as bad a position as he does a good one (of course a guy who knows what type of shirt you should wear in court would know how the shaved head and tats would come across) I think the show has presented that.
I don't think it's an accident he uses the same 'make a proper convict out of you' line as the other guy.
Freddy isn't necessarily Nas moving from a threatening situation to a stable one, it's him moving from to a different type of threatening situation. And between the beatings and the drugs and him putting Nas in just as bad a position as he does a good one (of course a guy who knows what type of shirt you should wear in court would know how the shaved head and tats would come across) I think the show has presented that.
I disagree. Tthat just means not all of them are handled well. I agree with the hearse guy stuff, as I mentioned before. But the other two don't really seem like problems, as they aren't the type of thing that is stuff you wouldn't just present anyway. That a guy uses a knife isn't exactly anything but a 'present to the viewer' situation. Those are things that are just met through the eyes of Stone.
Ultimately this is still a murder investigation show with only 8 episodes. If we were dedicating a whole season to the stepdad or Reade then yeah you can go a long way around to finding out he uses a knife, I guess. I agree some aspects are going to be more compressed because of time, but I don't see that being something that needs to be focused on or hidden away, nor does it really take away from other areas it is concentrating on.
It's like he completely forgot the show's (other) main character existed.
I've definitely become more endeared to Stone, actually. I didn't intend for my criticisms to sound so harsh - by and large I'm enjoying the show. It just comes up pretty short on rich and / or likable characters. Obviously, like I said, Stone is endearing but at this point he's about the only character in the show who I feel I know and like.
Eh. The prison scenes are pretty bereft of humour. But they're supposed to be. In fact it's kind of essential to Nas' development that they not try and make the climate seem lighter than it really is.
Otherwise the show is largely Stone interacting with different people which is punctuated by moments of levity. And Bill Camp as well, I think, does a fantastic job with Box in being dour and serious, yet also gently mocking people like Stone or the cop that really doesn't want people to know he puked. In fact we need more Box. Great character.
I already disagreed with you but then I read this part and my disagreement was 100% solidified. Opinions like this show a complete lack of imagination.
FantasticMrFoxdie
Mumber
The complaints are all justified. The show has taken a strange turn into a weird whodunnit. I'm still pretty hooked, but my girlfriend is getting pretty restless at some of the weird scenes.
And yeah what the fuck with the no follow up from last episodes cliffhanger.
Preview Image of next episode:
And yeah what the fuck with the no follow up from last episodes cliffhanger.
Preview Image of next episode:
ZackieChan
Member
What weird scenes?
So did anybody else recognise the financial advisor that Stone spoke to at the end?
It's none other than Paulo Costanzo, one of the guys out of the original Road Trip film all those years ago!
Bit of a blast from the past there
You mean that dude from Joey
ZackieChan
Member
What a royal pain in the ass
I had forgotten Riz is a rapper (of course playing a character named Naz)
Riz MC - Post 9/11 Blues
Riz MC (Riz Ahmed) - “ENGLISTAN” (Official Music Video)
Riz MC - Post 9/11 Blues
Riz MC (Riz Ahmed) - “ENGLISTAN” (Official Music Video)
ffejeromdiks
Banned
....Welp, this show is officially ruined. Nightcrawler as well...
wapplew
Member
A little disappointed on the courtroom drama.
They went all in with little details on the whole precinct process, I thought the show is about nitty gritty of the judicial system.
What's the defend angle?
Hope last 3 episode doesn't turn into who is the killer type of criminal show.
They went all in with little details on the whole precinct process, I thought the show is about nitty gritty of the judicial system.
What's the defend angle?
Hope last 3 episode doesn't turn into who is the killer type of criminal show.