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[arne]

Again, for game developers: would your company hire people from other countries? Because as of, well, right now, the only prospective employer coming down here is Ubisoft.

They do, but this can be tough (at least for the US) due to the added cost and complexities required to sponsor an employee for a work visa along with the legal costs and hurdles they'll have to go through and maintain. And of course, the fact that, if you're let go (or fired etc.) you basically have to be back on a plane home -- where you might not even actually have a home anymore -- almost immediately.

 

[Calen]

Again, for game developers: would your company hire people from other countries?

Absolutely! We have folks from Korea, Italy, Canada, Australia, Texas...

 

[Iaido Sword]

It's called Human-Computer Interaction and it's a branch of psychology. There is tons of research being done into making UIs more usable. There's also Graphic Design for the pretty side of it.

But interviewing them and sending out tests is.

They've been trying to correct you on some of you preconceptions for pages now. And you keep telling them that it's different.

So psychology is required to be a UI designer? Wow. They taught me what is a good UI and got me to design one. I sure as hell didn't need psychology to learn how to make good UIs.

I really don't get what you are trying to say. You say that interviewing and sending out tests are cheap, but putting students through schools under their curriculum, which represents the ultimate interview and test, at no cost, is not as good?

Let's say you send out a thousand of these tests and do those interviews. You spend maybe half an hour each applicant, so that's a damn long time to weed through all of those applicants to find your "talent".

The school weeds out the bad apples and the best students graduate. You can call them talent if you want, but they have risen over the challenges to be able to get into the industry. It's really hard work.

well, I'm sure there's a lot of folks who don't want to get outed, but there's at least 2-3 more you're missing. i'd assume most of the people responding to you directly are, in fact.

all of the successful UI designers I know too this (as a master's degree)

Aside from BishopTL who has spoken about his well known Turok development, I don't exactly trust anyone else due to anonymity. In fact, some people don't even trust I am a student of this school, so it goes both ways.

 

[Zoe]

Absolutely! We have folks from Korea, Italy, Canada, Australia, Texas...

Hmph

 

[Calen]

Hmph

 

[Iaido Sword]

They teach you on everything to find out what you excel at, not so you can do everything.

Actually they do. They are just listed under psychology, process management, human thought, and countless other classes. Sure you can't get a degree in 'UI Design', but what is a degree in 'Game Design' going to do when your 50.

Sure most animators can model and modelers can animate, but you hire someone to animate and hire someone else to model. Hell, studios even hire people to make nothing but materials and textures.

Actually, they won't graduate a student if they don't pass the courses. The courses cover various topics which touch on each department. They don't go into depth. I don't have more than 2 drawing courses out of 35 courses I will get.

I have a class called interface design. I'm quite confident that it will cover what I need to know about UIs and relate better than a psychology course.

If you could hire 2 people who can both model and animate very well, why would you hire 2 separate specialists? Expanding your qualifications will increase the chances of being hired.

 

[arne]

So psychology is required to be a UI designer? Wow. They taught me what is a good UI and got me to design one. I sure as hell didn't need psychology to learn how to make good UIs.

how about a master's degree?

Aside from BishopTL who has spoken about his well known Turok development, I don't exactly trust anyone else due to anonymity. In fact, some people don't even trust I am a student of this school, so it goes both ways.

well, you're well within your rights not to trust me, although barring some very minor cases, my history will tell you that i'm a pretty straight shooter and I can tell you that nearly everybody that is actually engaging in dialogue with you has industry experience. barring that, it's not very hard to find out where i work and then make the connection that i might know these people too.

also about not trusting you... read my tag. :lol

I have a class called interface design. I'm quite confident that it will cover what I need to know about UIs and relate better than a psychology course.

well i guess all those folks at the top of their game who got a human-computer interaction degree totally wasted their money. and of course, you can also be a top notch ui designer without such degree if you have the talent, etc. but seriously, don't be so dismissive.

 

[noonche]

This is exactly what I was talking about:

So psychology is required to be a UI designer? Wow. They taught me what is a good UI and got me to design one. I sure as hell didn't need psychology to learn how to make good UIs.

You said there wasn't such a thing as a school for learning UI. I corrected you.

I really don't get what you are trying to say. You say that interviewing and sending out tests are cheap, but putting students through schools under their curriculum, which represents the ultimate interview and test, at no cost, is not as good?

Let's say you send out a thousand of these tests and do those interviews. You spend maybe half an hour each applicant, so that's a damn long time to weed through all of those applicants to find your "talent".

The school weeds out the bad apples and the best students graduate. You can call them talent if you want, but they have risen over the challenges to be able to get into the industry. It's really hard work.

You have no idea how many students with degrees from fantastic universities I've met that couldn't do the jobs they where interviewing for. Physics majors not being able to apply kinematic equations, CS people unable to write base for-loops. I don't think I've ever met anyone from your school, but I don't know of a single employer that would hire someone without a test and an intervew.

 

[Iaido Sword]

how about a master's degree?

well, you're well within your rights not to trust me, although barring some very minor cases, my history will tell you that i'm a pretty straight shooter and I can tell you that nearly everybody that is actually engaging in dialogue with you has industry experience. barring that, it's not very hard to find out where i work and then make the connection that i might know these people too.

I'm not in the position to judge who I would hire, but I think someone who knows how the entire game design process works would be a more appealing choice to fill a job position.

Well, let's say I do trust you. If you're arguing against my belief that everything I'm learning at school that is comprised of the collective curriculum layout of EA, Relic, Radical, and other studios that have interest in this program, then are you arguing against those industry leaders?

Most of these people are saying that the school I goto is not the way to get into the industry, therefore, disagreeing with what those devs/pubs have set up.

Would you rather have to scour through tons of applicants to find the right fit, or would you want to have your own school (that you don't have to pay for) to train and find a best possible employee.

You are a part of the industry, and they are a part of the industry. Who's right about what the industry wants?

This is exactly what I was talking about:

You said there wasn't such a thing as a school for learning UI. I corrected you.

You have no idea how many students with degrees from fantastic universities I've met that couldn't do the jobs they where interviewing for. Physics majors not being able to apply kinematic equations, CS people unable to write base for-loops. I don't think I've ever met anyone from your school, but I don't know of a single employer that would hire someone without a test and an intervew.

I don't know anyone with majors in their field unable to answer such basic questions.

But to tell you how it works at my school, the industry comes to interview the students directly. They have a regular set time of each semester to interview graduates and look at their portfolio.

 

[Zoe]

Most of these people are saying that the school I goto is not the way to get into the industry, therefore, disagreeing with what those devs/pubs have set up.

I don't see these guys saying that.

 

[Mercutio]

Actually, they won't graduate a student if they don't pass the courses. The courses cover various topics which touch on each department. They don't go into depth. I don't have more than 2 drawing courses out of 35 courses I will get.

I have a class called interface design. I'm quite confident that it will cover what I need to know about UIs and relate better than a psychology course.

If you could hire 2 people who can both model and animate very well, why would you hire 2 separate specialists? Expanding your qualifications will increase the chances of being hired.

Man, I do admire your sheer determination. Page after page of people telling you how wrong and what a distorted view you have, and you're still at it? Come on, time to admit defeat.

If the program is honestly as shallow in each department as you're pitching it, you're going to be a Jack of All Trades (if even a Jack, maybe an 8 of all Trades) and master of none. Few, and I mean FEW of the people I work with can truly consider themselves "Generalists."

Some people are simply gifted in certain areas. Some are not. For every person who tries super hard to be an awesome modeler, there's going to be a guy who not only tries super hard, but has a natural gift when it comes to shape and form. For every 10 people who want to be animators and spend fanatical amounts of time working at it, there's going to be someone who has an absolute power over timing and motion.

And you know what? I don't know one talented modeler who can't draw beautifully, one TD who doesn't own multiple books on human and animal anatomy, or one animator who doesn't sleep without his copy of The Illusion of Life nearby. Say what you want about not needing an education in traditional art or design, but it's important to the true artist.

You can't simply take a class in animation and hope to compete with these people on the upper rungs of design in their areas of expertise. And I certainly don't mean to dissuade anyone from trying their hand at these sorts of things, but these ARE things that you're going to find if you want to work in any sort of CG... it helps to be prepared for them.

 

[arne]

Most of these people are saying that the school I goto is not the way to get into the industry, therefore, disagreeing with what those devs/pubs have set up.

that's not what people are saying... you're taking some things way too literally. most people are saying that your perception on how what you're learning applies to how attractive of a candidate you are is somewhat flawed. coupled with your dismissive attitude towards the overall experience, generalization vs. specialization and other arguments -- doesn't help either.

to say "i took a class on ui design and that's all i need" means that you feel the learning process has stopped when that is absolutely not the case. and in most cases, as with nearly every other career, there is a place for the education to continue formally or informally.

 

[element]

but putting students through schools under their curriculum, which represents the ultimate interview and test, at no cost, is not as good?

the school doesn't pay for that. the companies get paid to allow their names to be used to recruit students and also have first pick of the litter when students graduate.

The school weeds out the bad apples and the best students graduate. You can call them talent if you want, but they have risen over the challenges to be able to get into the industry. It's really hard work.

So what your saying is if you graduate you have talent? Tons of people graduate, yet some have no talent or future. They can cross all their T and dot all their I, but it takes more then that to get hired.

I have a class called interface design. I'm quite confident that it will cover what I need to know about UIs and relate better than a psychology course.

Perhaps the basic technical aspects of 'how to make a menu', activation blocks, and such. But building a menu and understanding how to make a good menu are two totally different things.

If you could hire 2 people who can both model and animate very well, why would you hire 2 separate specialists? Expanding your qualifications will increase the chances of being hired.

Because I need an animator and a modeler. And there is so much content to make, iterate, and fix bugs with I need more then one person to do both.
More bullet points on a resume does not make you more qualified for a job. Typically with generalist is they AREN'T specialized and can not do many of the tasks needed in majority of these jobs. If it was simple tasks, like make a character walk. You aren't going to have your character modeler go do final animations. Don't get me started into the technical side of either discipline like riggers and such. Specialist perform a task at 100% because that is all they do, while a generalist perform at say 70%. Sure they could do the job, but quality is the main concern.

 

[Totz]

They do, but this can be tough (at least for the US) due to the added cost and complexities required to sponsor an employee for a work visa along with the legal costs and hurdles they'll have to go through and maintain. And of course, the fact that, if you're let go (or fired etc.) you basically have to be back on a plane home -- where you might not even actually have a home anymore -- almost immediately.

That is one of the biggest problems I face. It's basically a paradox: I need to move to the US to get a job, but I can't move unless I get a job.

Absolutely! We have folks from Korea, Italy, Canada, Australia, Texas...

As full-time employees? Wow, that's pretty sweet, just gave me a glimmer of hope there.

 

[Iaido Sword]

I don't see these guys saying that.

Look through it. Especially that guy who said that instructors tell me that school is important because they want my money.

Man, I do admire your sheer determination. Page after page of people telling you how wrong and what a distorted view you have, and you're still at it? Come on, time to admit defeat.

If the program is honestly as shallow in each department as you're pitching it, you're going to be a Jack of All Trades (if even a Jack, maybe an 8 of all Trades) and master of none. Few, and I mean FEW of the people I work with can truly consider themselves "Generalists."

Some people are simply gifted in certain areas. Some are not. For every person who tries super hard to be an awesome modeler, there's going to be a guy who not only tries super hard, but has a natural gift when it comes to shape and form. For every 10 people who want to be animators and spend fanatical amounts of time working at it, there's going to be someone who has an absolute power over timing and motion.

You can't simply take a class in animation and hope to compete with these people on the upper rungs of design in their areas of expertise. And I certainly don't mean to dissuade anyone from trying their hand at these sorts of things, but these ARE things that you're going to find if you want to work in any sort of CG... it helps to be prepared for them.

That's why the Art Institute and other game schools prepare you for it. The programmers at my school have to learn about game design and know basic modeling. 3D modelers have to know how to draw in 2D. Game designers have to know bits of every thing.

 

[Caspel]

can a mod change the title to something more appropriate since Mr.Knowitall has taken over the thread with his almighty knowledge.

 

[Mercutio]

Because I need an animator and a modeler. And there is so much content to make, iterate, and fix bugs with I need more then one person to do both.
More bullet points on a resume does not make you more qualified for a job. Typically with generalist is they AREN'T specialized and can not do many of the tasks needed in majority of these jobs. If it was simple tasks, like make a character walk. You aren't going to have your character modeler go do final animations. Don't get me started into the technical side of either discipline like riggers and such. Specialist perform a task at 100% because that is all they do, while a generalist perform at say 70%. Sure they could do the job, but quality is the main concern.

In many jobs, I actually function only as a TD or rigger.

Man, let me tell you. Often I'm the direct link between the models and the animation in that capacity, and Element is entirely correct. Within a few minutes of looking over a model's geometry I can tell you if the person who made it is a specialist or not.

 

[Insaniac]

where do you live? I have excellent game design skills. All we need is to scoop up some programmers and we could make a triple A game like limbo of the lost

 

[Alski]

The school weeds out the bad apples and the best students graduate.

Thats funny, and untrue.
From my experience with AI everyone graduates (unless they voluntarily leave the system). Tech schools like AI and VFS don't make money by failing students, and I have never heard of even one individual failing out, ever. I'm not saying those schools don't do a good job highlighting people with talent because they do but they certainly don't do a good job filtering the shit. Thats why we have to interview them.

 

[arne]

That's why the Art Institute and other game schools prepare you for it. The programmers at my school have to learn about game design and know basic modeling. 3D modelers have to know how to draw in 2D. Game designers have to know bits of every thing.

knowing what everybody else can/is doing is integral to understanding your own job better. but thinking you can master/do everything and that's your ticket isn't going to work.

look at most film programs that cater to folks who want to get a professional job -- they all teach you how to do everything so you can get a grasp of how it all works, but then they quickly funnel you into a program where you specialize in one discipline among many.

at the end of the day, you're working in the bigger team that is the studio/developer and you have to know what the other parts of your team is doing -- but that doesn't mean you're just simply able to rise above folks who are excellent at their specialized jobs.

it's kind of an apples and oranges type of thing.

 

[Iaido Sword]

that's not what people are saying... you're taking some things way too literally. most people are saying that your perception on how what you're learning applies to how attractive of a candidate you are is somewhat flawed. coupled with your dismissive attitude towards the overall experience, generalization vs. specialization and other arguments -- doesn't help either.

to say "i took a class on ui design and that's all i need" means that you feel the learning process has stopped when that is absolutely not the case. and in most cases, as with nearly every other career, there is a place for the education to continue formally or informally.

When I said I have a course in interface design, I said that to say that I don't need a masters degree in psychology to make UIs.

Experience comes with when I'm in the industry, and I'm not in it yet. I can only interpret how the school curriculum represents the local developers and publishers in the city. If those companies really wanted specialists, they certainly wouldn't be making programmers know how to model. They set up the curriculum to what they want.

I'm sorry if it's not your way, but it's how it is in this city.

the school doesn't pay for that. the companies get paid to allow their names to be used to recruit students and also have first pick of the litter when students graduate.

So what your saying is if you graduate you have talent? Tons of people graduate, yet some have no talent or future. They can cross all their T and dot all their I, but it takes more then that to get hired.

Perhaps the basic technical aspects of 'how to make a menu', activation blocks, and such. But building a menu and understanding how to make a good menu are two totally different things.

Because I need an animator and a modeler. And there is so much content to make, iterate, and fix bugs with I need more then one person to do both.
More bullet points on a resume does not make you more qualified for a job. Typically with generalist is they AREN'T specialized and can not do many of the tasks needed in majority of these jobs. If it was simple tasks, like make a character walk. You aren't going to have your character modeler go do final animations. Don't get me started into the technical side of either discipline like riggers and such. Specialist perform a task at 100% because that is all they do, while a generalist perform at say 70%. Sure they could do the job, but quality is the main concern.

No, they don't get paid to have their names used. Like I told you, they work with the school.

Not a lot of students graduate from the school. Less than 200 a year graduate from where I come from and not all of them are heading towards game development.

Please stop twisting the question I asked. If a generalist can perform modeling at same quality of a specialist, who would you hire? There are generalists that are being trained to be that good. Companies rather have someone who can do various things than pay one specialist. Specialists are usually never in-house and are contracted out. A generalist will find jobs easier.

 

[arne]

When I said I have a course in interface design, I said that to say that I don't need a masters degree in psychology to make UIs.

true, but you might need a masters degree in HCI to make great UIs so that it doesn't
a) break the game
b) break the overall user experience
c) fail at being intuitive
d) stall your career at only implementing someone else's UI design because they understand human nature and how that goes into making choices, how to path user behavior properly through UI and menus for appropriate tasks, etc.
e) suck

If a generalist can perform modeling at same quality of a specialist, who would you hire? There are generalists that are being trained to be that good. Companies rather have someone who can do various things than pay one specialist. Specialists are usually never in-house and are contracted out. A generalist will find jobs easier.

i'll let you know what the hiring manager says about this tomorrow.
will you then take that advice?


(in my field, i'll want to hire a specialist for what i need filled. i don't want a generalist unless they will in a senior leadership position.)

 

[Iaido Sword]

knowing what everybody else can/is doing is integral to understanding your own job better. but thinking you can master/do everything and that's your ticket isn't going to work.

look at most film programs that cater to folks who want to get a professional job -- they all teach you how to do everything so you can get a grasp of how it all works, but then they quickly funnel you into a program where you specialize in one discipline among many.

at the end of the day, you're working in the bigger team that is the studio/developer and you have to know what the other parts of your team is doing -- but that doesn't mean you're just simply able to rise above folks who are excellent at their specialized jobs.

it's kind of an apples and oranges type of thing.

I didn't guarantee it's a ticket, but is it a more appealing prospect over a specialist?

A generalist can further specialize and become a specialist, and if something else is needed, that generalist can specialize in that.

 

[Mercutio]

Please stop twisting the question I asked. If a generalist can perform modeling at same quality of a specialist, who would you hire? There are generalists that are being trained to be that good. Companies rather have someone who can do various things than pay one specialist. Specialists are usually never in-house and are contracted out. A generalist will find jobs easier.

Answer: Specialist.

Why? A generalist of the same quality of the specialist mentioned (and you say this as if there's some sort of 10 point scale on which they are measured) is going to be more expensive than the specialist of the same quality in one area. If I'm directing a project or picking the team for it, I'm watching my bottom line.

Also: When someone is a freelancer, you hire them to do one specific job because you have your shop well set up in each area of production. You are contracting someone for a specific job, and they're REALLY not going to be cool with you telling them that they need to do work in other departments as well.

Quit with your stupid misinformation.

 

[Alski]

But to tell you how it works at my school, the industry comes to interview the students directly. They have a regular set time of each semester to interview graduates and look at their portfolio.

Lets be honest now, its not an individual one on one interview. AI puts on a show once a year to show off the completed student projects which is a TEAM MOD project. I have never gone to AI to do sit down interviews with anyone. If I was interested we would set up an interview and if we still liked you after the interview we would give you a test to do at home and send back.

 

[blackadde]

Please stop twisting the question I asked. If a generalist can perform modeling at same quality of a specialist, who would you hire? There are generalists that are being trained to be that good.

that is a total load of horsecock. this magic, crazy-talented generalist who is a god among modellers, riggers, concept designers, writers, etc. is going to be demanding 10x the pay when i/we/they only need a very good modeller.

 

[Zoe]

A generalist can further specialize and become a specialist, and if something else is needed, that generalist can specialize in that.

That's a rather optimistic way of looking at things. Do you honestly believe that the generalist will be able to maintain their "high" level of skill in everything else while having to focus all of the effort into one specific task for a project's life cycle?

Technology and industry practices are constantly evolving. You're kidding yourself if you think you can keep up like that.

 

[Mercutio]

that is a total load of horsecock. this magic, crazy-talented generalist who is a god among modellers, riggers, concept designers, writers, etc. is going to be demanding 10x the pay when i/we/they only need a very good modeller.

BAM. Exactly.

 

[Shouta]

It's called Human-Computer Interaction and it's a branch of psychology. There is tons of research being done into making UIs more usable. There's also Graphic Design for the pretty side of it.

HCI is also associated with Technical Communication for another way into the field.

 

[Iaido Sword]

Answer: Specialist.

Why? A generalist of the same quality of the specialist mentioned (and you say this as if there's some sort of 10 point scale on which they are measured) is going to be more expensive than the specialist of the same quality in one area.

Also: When someone is a freelancer, you hire them to do one specific job because you have your shop well set up in each area of production. You are contracting someone for a specific job, and they're REALLY not going to be cool with you telling them that they need to do work in other departments as well.

Quit with your stupid misinformation.

More expensive? Try analyzing what you say.

Now you're thinking about cost. If the generalist accepts the same salary as the company would have offered the specialist, your point goes out the window.

Specialist are specialists. Not sure why you pointed that out. I didn't say specialist should be generalists.

Lets be honest now, its not an individual one on one interview. AI puts on a show once a year to show off the completed student projects which is a TEAM MOD project. I have never gone to AI to do sit down interviews with anyone. If I was interested we would set up an interview and if we still liked you after the interview we would give you a test to do at home and send back.

Not speaking for you, but I've seen the interviews done right away from some representatives after the portfolio session. You may not do it, but it can happen.

That's a rather optimistic way of looking at things. Do you honestly believe that the generalist will be able to maintain their "high" level of skill in everything else while having to focus all of the effort into one specific task for a project's life cycle?

Technology and industry practices are constantly evolving. You're kidding yourself if you think you can keep up like that.

A generalist can turn into a specialist at any time and work hard at it. The thing is that generalist can also become a specialist of something else if needed and do well because that person isn't limited to a certain skill to begin with.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

that is a total load of horsecock. this magic, crazy-talented generalist who is a god among modellers, riggers, concept designers, writers, etc. is going to be demanding 10x the pay when i/we/they only need a very good modeller.

I've worked with a handful of "uber-generalists" when it comes to overall fields, i.e. art - these guys who are superbly talented at modeling, animation, rigging, plus with enough technical experience to do things such as write Maya plug-ins, shaders (though not necessarily from scratch and optimized - that's rendering engineer work), and complex scripting in something like Perl or Python. These guys also had extensive education and used to work at places like ILM and Pixar and command high salaries. These guys are awesome and definitely are useful on a dev team, but they're very rare and are more likely to be at CG or special effect houses in the movie business.

But the complete total package including all facets of design, coding, art, and writing? And can stay current in each field in a fast-moving industry? Even more rare than what I talked about above.

 

[arne]

Now you're thinking about cost. If the generalist accepts the same salary as the company would have offered the specialist, your point goes out the window.

then this hypothetical exceptional generalist is either extremely under-valuing his/her own self-worth or is extremely desperate. both are causes for concern from a hiring point of view. (speaking for entry-level, fresh out of school people -- these type of generalists can exist, but they typically already command senior level positions)


and i need to go home.

 

[Mercutio]

More expensive? Try analyzing what you say.

Now you're thinking about cost. If the generalist accepts the same salary as the company would have offered the specialist, your point goes out the window.

Dude, why the hell would a generalist who is clearly worth more do that? And when is a company NOT thinking about cost?

You are smoking some kind of stupid crazy. This is a JOB. People do it for MONEY.

 

[Iced_Eagle]

Actually, they won't graduate a student if they don't pass the courses. The courses cover various topics which touch on each department. They don't go into depth. I don't have more than 2 drawing courses out of 35 courses I will get.

I have a class called interface design. I'm quite confident that it will cover what I need to know about UIs and relate better than a psychology course.

If you could hire 2 people who can both model and animate very well, why would you hire 2 separate specialists? Expanding your qualifications will increase the chances of being hired.

Well, some companies don't exactly what a jack of all trades, master at none guy. Maybe they want someone who really knows some of the UI psychology, as in, has a masters in it.

 

[Duckhuntdog]

Also DO NOT UNDERESTIMATE THE STAYING POWER OF A GOOD UI DESIGNER. If a company has a great UI designer, they will pay for him to sit on his ass to keep him. UI design is easily one of the most challenging and unrewarding design jobs out there. Which is why if you have a good one, you will do anything and everything to keep them.

Typically what would happen is if a designer of any disciple was done with his/her responsibilities they would move onto another project.

Heck yes, especially with UI designers, which I am finding out are very hard to come by. I have to give props to the UI people, they have to be able to make a clean and simple UI that is able to give the player the most amount of feedback in the least amount of screen space.

Plus they have to iteratively keep changing the look and layout of UI till everyone is happy. I've seen people works months on a UI, only to have to throw it all away and start over.

 

[Cmagus]

Iaido, when i first started reading what you had to say I felt sorry. I was hoping that people will come in and say that schools will not help you all that much obtaining a job, its what you do outside of school hours that will count... and they have, countless times.

I think we just need to leave this thread alone all... everything has been said at least twice and he is not getting it. He'll learn once he has graduated from this great school and find out that he may be shit out of luck finding a job... and I hate to see that, because I know how much these schools cost, but I see no other ending to this... unless you smarten up and LISTEN for a change.

But this also points out a VERY important (and troubling) issue with today's "Game Schools" they promise you the world but deliver very little unless the person (him or herself) takes the initiative.

Now personally I'm coming from an Artist's point of view, but all the greats I know and look up too are self taught (including myself). The better ones being the ones with a solid traditional art foundation, not all though. Most (if not all) the students I see coming out of these Game Courses who solely relied on their curriculum to get them a job failed... and failed miserably. It's the ones who spent countless hours after class working and REALLY pushing themselves that landed the jobs in the end.

So Iaido, with all the great tips and suggestions you have been given in this thread... are you gonna take that risk and hope to god your "school training" will land you a job... or are you going to be that person who pushes himself beyond others and works HARD to land that job, while trying to suck up as much knowledge and criticism one can take... that's going to be the defining factor.

And that's all I have to say, Iaido buddy I wish you luck... you should be so lucky to have the ability to get such helpful (and truthful) suggestions from people within the game industry.

Toodles

 

[MC Safety]

Sounds like the first step would be to contact those companies you worked with already.

Did you try that?

Wow.

I can understand why everyone in this thread thinks you're a, well ...

 

[Iaido Sword]

I've worked with a handful of "uber-generalists" when it comes to overall fields, i.e. art - these guys who are superbly talented at modeling, animation, rigging, plus with enough technical experience to do things such as write Maya plug-ins, shaders (though not necessarily from scratch and optimized - that's rendering engineer work), and complex scripting in something like Perl or Python. These guys also had extensive education and used to work at places like ILM and Pixar and command high salaries. These guys are awesome and definitely are useful on a dev team, but they're very rare and are more likely to be at CG or special effect houses in the movie business.

But the complete total package including all facets of design, coding, art, and writing? And can stay current in each field in a fast-moving industry? Even more rare than what I talked about above.

Taken quite a bit of what I said out of context.

Designers will never be artists, modelers, or programmers, but they have to know enough of each field to be able to bring together everyone's work. If everyone's just off doing their own thing, the package isn't going to come together by itself.

then this hypothetical exceptional generalist is either extremely under-valuing his/her own self-worth or is extremely desperate. both are causes for concern from a hiring point of view. (speaking for entry-level, fresh out of school people -- these type of generalists can exist, but they typically already command senior level positions)

and i need to go home.

A grad will be desperate for anything. Even a QA position. Anything more, since the companies are constantly scouting positions, would be great.

I certainly won't demand senior positions. That's unprofessional and illogical. Regardless, if you find a generalist of great caliber that meets more than your needs and doesn't mind being paid less than they are worth, you'd find yourself a gem.

Dude, why the hell would a generalist who is clearly worth more do that? And when is a company NOT thinking about cost?

You are smoking some kind of stupid crazy. This is a JOB. People do it for MONEY.

I answered that above. Grads will take anything. Idiots will demand more and lose the opportunity.

Iaido, when i first started reading what you had to say I felt sorry. I was hoping that people will come in and say that schools will not help you all that much obtaining a job, its what you do outside of school hours that will count... and they have, countless times.

I think we just need to leave this thread alone all... everything has been said at least twice and he is not getting it. He'll learn once he has graduated from this great school and find out that he may be shit out of luck finding a job... and I hate to see that, because I know how much these schools cost, but I see no other ending to this... unless you smarten up and LISTEN for a change.

But this also points out a VERY important (and troubling) issue with today's "Game Schools" they promise you the world but deliver very little unless the person (him or herself) takes the initiative.

Now personally I'm coming from an Artist's point of view, but all the greats I know and look up too are self taught (including myself). The better ones being the ones with a solid traditional art foundation, not all though. Most (if not all) the students I see coming out of these Game Courses who solely relied on their curriculum to get them a job failed... and failed miserably. It's the ones who spent countless hours after class working and REALLY pushing themselves that landed the jobs in the end.

So Iaido, with all the great tips and suggestions you have been given in this thread... are you gonna take that risk and hope to god your "school training" will land you a job... or are you going to be that person who pushes himself beyond others and works HARD to land that job, while trying to suck up as much knowledge and criticism one can take... that's going to be the defining factor.

And that's all I have to say, Iaido buddy I wish you luck... you should be so lucky to have the ability to get such helpful (and truthful) suggestions from people within the game industry.

Toodles

My school training that the industry leaders want in an employee?

Yes, I bet my life on it, and it has proven to work because they are working out there. I told you, my instructors working at high profile jobs came from the school. I'm not worried in the slightest.

 

[trilobyte]

I still have a fleeting thought of becoming a game developer. However I'm pretty happy right now coding my own little games during my free time. I've spent 3 years as a web-application developer in the real world, and I can only imagine that with game development...while different in content....is still marred by the same bullshit that I've had to put up with

Heck, it's probably worse

 

[Mercutio]

Wow.

I can understand why everyone in this thread thinks you're a, well ...

I can't even think of a good pithy one-word thing to call this guy. Something both descriptive and insulting, while insinuating extreme levels of delusion.

 

[Iaido Sword]

Wow.

I can understand why everyone in this thread thinks you're a, well ...

It was quite a straightforward question.

If you had contacted those game companies and got the job, you wouldn't be asking. If you did do it and didn't get the job, why would you be asking here?

You seem quite professional if you say you wrote three published games. I'm sure you don't have to ask NeoGAF. You know how the system works.

And if you don't, my advice is completely valid.

I can't even think of a good pithy one-word thing to call this guy. Something both descriptive and insulting, while insinuating extreme levels of delusion.

Well, you're definitely not of the industry. :lol

 

[blackadde]

 

[Mercutio]

I answered that above. Grads will take anything. Idiots will demand more and lose the opportunity.

So on your magical planet, grads are as good and reliable as those who have been in the business for years?

Yeah, I'd totally bet a big job on that. You have no clue.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

Designers will never be artists, modelers, or programmers, but they have to know enough of each field to be able to bring together everyone's work. If everyone's just off doing their own thing, the package isn't going to come together by itself.

That's what proper planning is for. If the leads and production staff do their jobs right, even the most unaware engineer or character artist will know how their work directly impacts other people on the team. This is just Production 101.

A grad will be desperate for anything. Even a QA position. Anything more, since the companies are constantly scouting positions, would be great.

A grad will also unlikely to be superbly skilled at all those different fields. You're confusing the issue here, are we talking about genuine skilled cross-discipline generalists or not? Because those are not going to be desperate for a job.

I certainly won't demand senior positions. That's unprofessional and illogical. Regardless, if you find a generalist of great caliber that meets more than your needs and doesn't mind being paid less than they are worth, you'd find yourself a gem.

And most companies would also consider this hypothetical high-skilled generalist with no experience a flight risk as coming in on a much lower rate than you're worth means the typical yearly raise won't be enough to get you to the proper level in a timely fashion. After a few years, said generalist can likely get a job anywhere.

My school training that the industry leaders want in an employee?

Yes, I bet my life on it, and it has proven to work because they are working out there. I told you, my instructors working at high profile jobs came from the school. I'm not worried in the slightest.

You're not quite getting what people are trying to tell you still, are you?

Well, you're definitely not of the industry. :lol

There's a lot more of us on here than you may want to believe, and even more who just lurk. But it doesn't really matter what any of us say anyway, you've already made up your mind.

 

[Zoe]

My school training that EA, Relic, etc want in an employee?

Fixed.

These industry leaders are grooming you to fit a mold that THEY are looking for. You need to realize that these blanket statements you're making obviously don't apply to the entire industry.

 

[Upper_Management]

If you do end up getting a job in this industry, I would love to see your comments on this forum thread in about 5 years or so. Then I think you will realize where everyone that is offering advice is coming from.

 

[MC Safety]

It was quite a straightforward question.

If you had contacted those game companies and got the job, you wouldn't be asking. If you did do it and didn't get the job, why would you be asking here?

You seem quite professional if you say you wrote three published games. I'm sure you don't have to ask NeoGAF. You know how the system works.

And if you don't, my advice is completely valid.

Well, you're definitely not of the industry. :lol

Perhaps, for one reason or another, it's not possible for me to work full-time for the developers of the games in question. Perhaps, I was seeking the advice of people here who may have some expertise (or specific experience) beyond yours.

 

[boutrosinit]

I'm in the best damn school for being a game developer. =D

the konami one in japan or digipen

 

[inertiatic]

can a mod change the title to something more appropriate since Mr.Knowitall has taken over the thread with his almighty knowledge.

Just quoting for truth. Reading this thread hurts.

 

[Zoe]

I can only imagine that with game development...while different in content....is still marred by the same bullshit that I've had to put up with

Heck, it's probably worse

I think that goes hand in hand with tech companies in general right now.