Support NeoGAF

[Laeth]

What a company would typically do is have a UI DESIGNER, who understands usability, flow, context, and ease of use. They wouldn't put some random level design and say 'hey go help make UI now.'
Also skills of making a good enemy encounter is VASTLY different then making a UI, or writing a story, designing cinematics.

Designer is not a generalized position anymore. Designers are specialized.

Well for one, I highly doubt this 'lead modeler' makes ridiculous amounts of money, because if he did he wouldn't be doing anything. People don't take two jobs because they have too much money.
Two many leads becomes teachers to find cheap labor and teach them how they want them to work. To fall in line if you will.
And as Alski said, ask was his referral bonus is.

Quoted for truth (generally anyway).

You've got a crowd of game industry people replying to you in this thread. If you want to believe your instructor over us, that's your prerogative of course, but you shouldn't be surprised that you're getting the emphatic response you're getting from people who are already doing this for a living every day.

I am specifically referring to the following:



With all due respect to your lead design experienced instructor (whom I am really hoping you misunderstood or misquoted and does not actually believe this him or herself), this is just not how it works. Everyone on a team is responsible for the game being good. Saying it's up to the designers and the other people on the project are just doing their jobs by rote as the designers hand it to them is, frankly, one of the most bogus things I have ever heard.

Think about it for a moment. You're suggesting that the designers on this hypothetical team also have enough domain specific knowledge about engineering and art to be able to find all of the mistakes in the programming and the art, and furthermore, that it should be their responsibility to do so. You're actually suggesting that the artists just do what the designers tell them and don't have significant huge input into art direction, styles, color choices, etc?

And again .

 

[Iaido Sword]

What a company would typically do is have a UI DESIGNER, who understands usability, flow, context, and ease of use. They wouldn't put some random level design and say 'hey go help make UI now.'
Also skills of making a good enemy encounter is VASTLY different then making a UI, or writing a story, designing cinematics.

Designer is not a generalized position anymore. Designers are specialized.

They do for one game. A designer specializes when they are assigned something, and when they're done that task and waits for it to go do something else. They are salary contracted. A UI designer isn't going to sit on his ass because he done his job when there's 5 months worth of development time. A publisher is certainly not going to pay you for doing one thing out of the entire year.

You're very wrong to say that generalists are going out the door. They are more important than ever because they are more things to do. When a designer builds a combat system, it affects the UI. The designer needs to know how to fit the UI for the combat system or have the combat system to cater to a good UI.

You've got a crowd of game industry people replying to you in this thread. If you want to believe your instructor over us, that's your prerogative of course, but you shouldn't be surprised that you're getting the emphatic response you're getting from people who are already doing this for a living every day.

I am specifically referring to the following:

With all due respect to your lead design experienced instructor (whom I am really hoping you misunderstood or misquoted and does not actually believe this him or herself), this is just not how it works. Everyone on a team is responsible for the game being good. Saying it's up to the designers and the other people on the project are just doing their jobs by rote as the designers hand it to them is, frankly, one of the most bogus things I have ever heard.

Think about it for a moment. You're suggesting that the designers on this hypothetical team also have enough domain specific knowledge about engineering and art to be able to find all of the mistakes in the programming and the art, and furthermore, that it should be their responsibility to do so. You're actually suggesting that the artists just do what the designers tell them and don't have significant huge input into art direction, styles, color choices, etc?

Like I said, I'm not writing an entire essay about a designers job.

I understand what you are trying to say and you have to understand that I know a designer doesn't do everything, but it is the designers job to be able to catch mistakes from any part of the game.

If a designer is not trained to be versatile and to be able to polish every spot of the game, then that designer has less of a quality in his job.

 

[The Friendly Monster]

Wow, so don't even goto elementary because you can learn basic English on your own.

School is important, and Post-secondary school is what puts people to the working standard. This whole idea that instructors are there just for your money is rebellious bullshit.

No-one said school isn't important, you are being really immature, of course there is such a thing as talent, you really believe that if everyone works equally hard they are equally skilled?

Also it sounds like you are lapping up *a lot* of what your instructors are telling you. You need to ask yourself if they are really a disinterested party? I'm not saying that they don't have good advice, but there are people in this thread giving you valuable information which you are reacting to very negatively.

Finally, you learned basic English at elementary school?

 

[XiaNaphryz]

Designer is not a generalized position anymore. Designers are specialized.

I think this is where the disconnect is. What Iaido Sword is generally describing is more akin to a Creative Director. Most companies these days have designers in specialized roles, at the very least systems design, level design, and writing.

 

[element]

I think this is where the disconnect is. What Iaido Sword is generally describing is more akin to a Creative Director. Most companies these days have designers in specialized roles, at the very least systems design, level design, and writing.

Correct. And you aren't going to graduate from school and get a job as Creative Director.

If a designer is not trained to be versatile and to be able to polish every spot of the game, then that designer has less of a quality in his job.

Games are FAR to complex to expect that type of ability out of people these days. Sure you can have knowledge and provide stop gap or support for varied spots in development. But you really can't expect a single designer to balance the weapons, write the story, design all the gadgets, setup the sounds and VO, create the combat scenarios, and on and on.
Games are just way to complex for that type of single 'I can do everything' attitude. Especially when you deal with sometimes over 100 people on a single team.

 

[Teriyaki]

I think this is where the disconnect is. What Iaido Sword is generally describing is more akin to a Creative Director. Most companies these days have designers in specialized roles, at the very least systems design, level design, and writing.

Agreed, although it also depends on the scope/genre/platform of the project.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

They do for one game. A designer specializes when they are assigned something, and when they're done that task and waits for it to go do something else. They are salary contracted. A UI designer isn't going to sit on his ass because he done his job when there's 5 months worth of development time. A publisher is certainly not going to pay you for doing one thing out of the entire year.

If a UI designer has done his part and there really is that much time left on the schedule, he's usually shifted to another project and put on-call for bug fixes.

Generalist designer isn't really a viable position these days, especially on teams of 120+. You can get away with having generalist or core engineer roles because there's plenty of code to work on that's not specific to a particular system. It doesn't quite work that way with design.

 

[Laeth]

Like I said, I'm not writing an entire essay about a designers job.

I understand what you are trying to say and you have to understand that I know a designer doesn't do everything, but it is the designers job to be able to catch mistakes from any part of the game.

If a designer is not trained to be versatile and to be able to polish every spot of the game, then that designer has less of a quality in his job.

<3 the fact you're telling some of us what our jobs are .

 

[Iaido Sword]

No-one said school isn't important, you are being really immature, of course there is such a thing as talent, you really believe that if everyone works equally hard they are equally skilled?

Also it sounds like you are lapping up *a lot* of what your instructors are telling you. You need to ask yourself if they are really a disinterested party? I'm not saying that they don't have good advice, but there are people in this thread giving you valuable information which you are reacting to very negatively.

Finally, you learned basic English at elementary school?

Take this perspective. Go tell someone who drawn an ugly picture of a character model that he has no talent and will not make it into the industry. You shut down that person's will to be a part of that industry. Good job.

I am encouraging anyone who wants to be in the industry to do it, and all of you say you need this mystical talent to be able to make it.

I think this is where the disconnect is. What Iaido Sword is generally describing is more akin to a Creative Director. Most companies these days have designers in specialized roles, at the very least systems design, level design, and writing.

System designers, level designers, writers can be the creative director after years of experience, but a creative director has to know how to design a game; therefore, the creative director is the ultimate designer job.

I'm talking about the extreme and I didn't touch all the stepping stones a designer has to go through. You just assume I disregarded QA -> Documenting -> concept designing, and all sorts of designer roles.

I know that. School taught me.

Creative Director is the dream job, but if you're putting yourself in the mindset of a creative director, you will be able to achieve it.

 

[Iaido Sword]

Correct. And you aren't going to graduate from school and get a job as Creative Director.

Games are FAR to complex to expect that type of ability out of people these days. Sure you can have knowledge and provide stop gap or support for varied spots in development. But you really can't expect a single designer to balance the weapons, write the story, design all the gadgets, setup the sounds and VO, create the combat scenarios, and on and on.
Games are just way to complex for that type of single 'I can do everything' attitude. Especially when you deal with sometimes over 100 people on a single team.

Again, I do not have the 'I can do everything' attitude.

I have the 'I will train myself to be able to handle everything' attitude.

If a UI designer has done his part and there really is that much time left on the schedule, he's usually shifted to another project and put on-call for bug fixes.

Generalist designer isn't really a viable position these days, especially on teams of 120+. You can get away with having generalist or core engineer roles because there's plenty of code to work on that's not specific to a particular system. It doesn't quite work that way with design.

Designers are salary contracted. They cannot be put on-call. You're paying them to do nothing at that point. If a generalist designer can do a great UI and move onto something else, that designer is far more valuable than a designer who focused only on UIs.

 

[noonche]

...

I can't seem to think of a kind way to say this, but I really hope that it's just when you're on the internet that you are brash, combative and arogant. Being humble and able to effectively communicate with others is very important.

 

[sugaki]

Slightly embarrassing to open myself to NeoGAF like this but last week I sent my first games job application. I put up a portfolio website for whatever company to take a look at. I would just like some (honest) feedback if people didn't mind. *Link* Right now I'm aiming towards working my way up from a tester position.

The first thing you see is "The website is now functioning properly".... which implies it wasn't before. Not the first impression you'd want to make. Home page should immediately advertise your portfolio, and not which browser it will work on. Have multiple point of entries to your projects, mainly Fragments. Fragments is the most significant of your projects, but the youtube sound quality needs to be vastly improved. I'd continue to improve and work on your portfolio, as well as revamp the visual impact of the web site (banner images using sketched penciling isn't working) to make yourself a more compelling candidate.

 

[element]

Take this perspective. Go tell someone who drawn an ugly picture of a character model that he has no talent and will not make it into the industry. You shut down that person's will to be a part of that industry. Good job.

Sometimes the truth hurts.

I am encouraging anyone who wants to be in the industry to do it, and all of you say you need this mystical talent to be able to make it.

No one is saying it doesn't take hardwork. It takes LOTS OF HARDWORK. But there is a huge difference between people who have natural talent and those that don't.

but a creative director has to know how to design a game; therefore, the creative director is the ultimate designer job.

One would assume that, but I have met my fair share of creative directors that couldn't design anything.

Creative Director is the dream job, but if you're putting yourself in the mindset of a creative director, you will be able to achieve it.

Ever think that after you work through a couple projects you wouldn't want to be a creative director?

I have the 'I will train myself to be able to handle everything' attitude.

Then you can get labeled as a know it all and be hated by team members. Sounds silly, but it happens.

 

[The Friendly Monster]

Take this perspective. Go tell someone who drawn an ugly picture of a character model that he has no talent and will not make it into the industry. You shut down that person's will to be a part of that industry. Good job.

This is another straw-man, why do you assume that I would ever do that?

I am encouraging anyone who wants to be in the industry to do it, and all of you say you need this mystical talent to be able to make it.

It isn't mystical in the least. You have a very distorted philosophy, totally at odds with the real world.

 

[Wollan]

*snip*.

Greatly appreciated sir.

 

[sugaki]

I can't seem to think of a kind way to say this, but I really hope that it's just when you're on the internet that you are brash, combative and arogant. Being humble and able to effectively communicate with others is very important.

This. So many in the industry (esp freelance) have this rockstar attitude that gets them nowhere. That's why many freelancers stay as freelancers (not all, some just like the lifestyle), because they're too abrasive, think they're too all that to get anywhere. Not saying Iaido is like that, but there's a lot of emperors with no clothes trying to make it, failing, and wondering why they can't get ahead. Communicating well, being professional is so crucial, especially in this industry where people can... well, put their hair down a bit too much.

 

[Cmagus]

I hate you Iaido.

 

[element]

Designers are salary contracted. They cannot be put on-call. You're paying them to do nothing at that point. If a generalist designer can do a great UI and move onto something else, that designer is far more valuable than a designer who focused only on UIs.

There are ALWAYS things to do, even in specialized positions. Just because you 'designed' something doesn't mean it is complete. My last game went through four UI revisions. Not to mention games typically go through usability testing until the last minute, and UI is one of the major components of usability. So a UI designer is going to work on things pretty late in a project.

Also DO NOT UNDERESTIMATE THE STAYING POWER OF A GOOD UI DESIGNER. If a company has a great UI designer, they will pay for him to sit on his ass to keep him. UI design is easily one of the most challenging and unrewarding design jobs out there. Which is why if you have a good one, you will do anything and everything to keep them.

Typically what would happen is if a designer of any disciple was done with his/her responsibilities they would move onto another project.

 

[Iaido Sword]

I can't seem to think of a kind way to say this, but I really hope that it's just when you're on the internet that you are brash, combative and arogant. Being humble and able to effectively communicate with others is very important.

How do I appear arrogant on this subject?

I know what designers do, but everyone is misinterpreting it because they formed their opinions without the full story.

It all started with how I am saying that these specialize game schools are the best way to get into the industry. The old ways are dying because this industry is looking for workers qualified in the field of interest.

Sometimes the truth hurts.

No one is saying it doesn't take hardwork. It takes LOTS OF HARDWORK. But there is a huge difference between people who have natural talent and those that don't.

One would assume that, but I have met my fair share of creative directors that couldn't design anything.

Ever think that after you work through a couple projects you wouldn't want to be a creative director?

Then you can get labeled as a know it all and be hated by team members. Sounds silly, but it happens.

Again, please tell me what is this natural talent that you speak of. How does one be talented at balancing combat mechanics?

And about the bold, name some creative directors that could not design and we can judge if the game was good or not.

There are ALWAYS things to do, even in specialized positions. Just because you 'designed' something doesn't mean it is complete. My last game went through four UI revisions. Not to mention games typically go through usability testing until the last minute, and UI is one of the major components of usability. So a UI designer is going to work on things pretty late in a project.

Also DO NOT UNDERESTIMATE THE STAYING POWER OF A GOOD UI DESIGNER. If a company has a great UI designer, they will pay for him to sit on his ass to keep him. UI design is easily one of the most challenging and unrewarding design jobs out there. Which is why if you have a good one, you will do anything and everything to keep them.

So, tell me. If a designer comes along who shows the quality work of that "great UI designer" and is able to be a level designer, a concept designer, or anything the designer does, who gets the job?

 

[Totz]

Well the other aspect of 'game stories' is what you write really hardly ever ends up the same by the time the game is complete.
I don't want to be the person breaking anyone's dreams, but check sites like Gamasutra, CreativeHeads.net, and other job sites and look for positions that have 'story writing' as a job. Writing documentation about your design is VASTLY different then writing a story.

Typically 'writing' skills for design jobs entails your ability to write clean and concise requirements and flush out an entire system or component.

Well, in my case, I'd love to write stories, not the technical documentation (not that there's anything wrong with that). Thing is, I sometimes aim to high, so, in my mind, I want to be the guy who creates and writes narratives and characters and such, you know?

Thanks for those sites, I had never heard of CreativeHeads.net before.

Some studios do hire internal writers (normally RPG developers like BioWare and Obsidian), but they have to have multiple projects on the go at the same time, otherwise writers will spend an awful lot of time doing nothing.

In these instances, developers will normally get freelancers in to work for a set period of time - normally under the direction of one of the Senior or Lead Designers. That, or they just get it outsourced externally.

BioWare have been known to hire writers from their community. They offer a lot of tools for writing game scenarios within their games and often ask for something to be submitted using the tools they provide. Failing that - they like to hire published writers, people who have proven that they can write.

I'm not a writer, or someone who hires writers - but that's the observations I've made from working in a few developers and what I've heard from colleagues .

BioWare offers tools to write scenarios for KotOR, Mass Effect and such? Really? That's actually pretty cool.

 

[Laeth]

BioWare offers tools to write scenarios for KotOR, Mass Effect and such? Really? That's actually pretty cool.

Not the console games unfortunately, Neverwinter Nights (and Obsidian released tools for the second one I beleive) is the latest one.

 

[Caspel]

this kid that keeps running his mouth off about god knows what reminds me of this 16 year old kid that I met when I went to church and told me that the next time I visit Midway Games, be sure to get their address so he can mail them a lawsuit for stealing his idea of a game called Roadkill with the same exact title, gameplay, characters, etc.

After this chat, I remember his mother/guardian telling me that to just agree with everything he says in the future because he has ADHD and gets angry when you tell him he's wrong.

 

[Teriyaki]

Designers are salary contracted. They cannot be put on-call. You're paying them to do nothing at that point. If a generalist designer can do a great UI and move onto something else, that designer is far more valuable than a designer who focused only on UIs.

I'm not going to say you're right or wrong, but only that this is a very narrow view. Value is in the eye of the beholder and if you're not the one who directly evaluates, then you really have little say in how much someone is worth and even then it's subjective. It's also important that you recognize that you will be evaluated as well and that it's possible you may not like how others see you.

Until you reach your desired role (creative director?) or have a chance to evaluate someone, please keep an open mind about what value really is, that values can change and that it's far easier to say that one position is more important than another position versus comparing real people.

 

[BrLvgThrChmstry]

There are ALWAYS things to do, even in specialized positions. Just because you 'designed' something doesn't mean it is complete. My last game went through four UI revisions. Not to mention games typically go through usability testing until the last minute, and UI is one of the major components of usability. So a UI designer is going to work on things pretty late in a project.

Also DO NOT UNDERESTIMATE THE STAYING POWER OF A GOOD UI DESIGNER. If a company has a great UI designer, they will pay for him to sit on his ass to keep him. UI design is easily one of the most challenging and unrewarding design jobs out there. Which is why if you have a good one, you will do anything and everything to keep them.

Typically what would happen is if a designer of any disciple was done with his/her responsibilities they would move onto another project.

Question regarding the UI designer position.. What kind of technical knowledge/Skill and what not do they possess?

 

[Iaido Sword]

Well, in my case, I'd love to write stories, not the technical documentation (not that there's anything wrong with that). Thing is, I sometimes aim to high, so, in my mind, I want to be the guy who creates and writes narratives and characters and such, you know?

Thanks for those sites, I had never heard of CreativeHeads.net before.

To break into the industry into a writer position, you'd have to go through the documentation phase. Most of the time, the company will just contract a really good writer if they need one.

You definitely need to show off that your works sells or show that you can write well. Documenting is the place to start as an entry level job for writers.

 

[Wollan]

Question regarding the UI designer position.. What kind of technical knowledge/Skill and what not do they possess?

Fullmoon Show (Insomniac Games Podcast), a few episodes ago (April/early May) had a good long segment ('I want your job') and interview with the ui designer at the company.

 

[Cmagus]

Bottom line man, you have no TRUE experience, its just that simple.

Its cool that you have instructors that work for the industry, so does every single other school that has a Game Design course at one point or another. But to sit here and argue with industry vets (and in general people who have been in the industry longer then you... which is everyone) is a complete waste of time and is hurting you more then it is helping...

I say work your ass off and show to future potential employers that you can deliver what you THINK you can achieve and what you talk about in this thread. Its one thing to say it... but its a WHOLE other story to actually DO it... and until then, I think you need to listen to what these people have to say, and stop arguing... ego comes with the gig.... but you need to learn when to swallow it.

Again man... as others have said, companies and workers alike may (and have) read this thread, and right now this "Iaido Sword" dude is not looking to good...

I wish you good luck

And I still hate you...

 

[chun li's thighs]

You can scrub toilets at some studio. That's techinically in the industry.

 

[Zoe]

How does one be talented at balancing combat mechanics?

According to Warren Spector, such people do exist.

I don't see why it's so hard for you to believe that talent exists. Some people just have a knack for things. That's life.

BioWare have been known to hire writers from their community. They offer a lot of tools for writing game scenarios within their games and often ask for something to be submitted using the tools they provide. Failing that - they like to hire published writers, people who have proven that they can write.

Bioware... shakefist.gif

Apparently there's a history of people abandoning my company to go work for Bioware. We have another guy leaving next week :lol

 

[Iaido Sword]

I'm not going to say you're right or wrong, but only that this is a very narrow view. Value is in the eye of the beholder and if you're not the one who directly evaluates, then you really have little say in how much someone is worth and even then it's subjective. It's also important that you recognize that you will be evaluated as well and that it's possible you may not like how others see you.

Until you reach your desired role (creative director?) or have a chance to evaluate someone, please keep an open mind about what value really is, that values can change and that it's far easier to say that one position is more important than another position versus comparing real people.

I restated this before and again.

What EA, Relic, Radical, and other studios value are in the program curriculum.

It may change in a long time, but this is how it is now for this part of the country, and I'm quite certain it is the same throughout the industry since these are the industry leaders.

 

[arne]

Its cool that you have instructors that work for the industry, so does every single other school that has a Game Design course at one point or another. But to sit here and argue with industry vets (and in general people who have been in the industry longer then you... which is everyone) is a complete waste of time and is hurting you more then it is helping...

this. seriously. end of story. stop writing back. and take a moment to listen to advice from people with (more) experience. you'll learn that skill will come in mighty handy in the "industry"

 

[BrLvgThrChmstry]

Fullmoon Show (Insomniac Games Podcast), a few episodes ago (April/early May) had a good long segment ('I want your job') and interview with the ui designer at the company.

Cool, thanks. I'm going to look it up.

 

[Totz]

Not the console games unfortunately, Neverwinter Nights (and Obsidian released tools for the second one I beleive) is the latest one.

How do I go about creating one, then? The game (NWN 1) is pretty cheap these days, and I could easily find it somewhere.

To break into the industry into a writer position, you'd have to go through the documentation phase. Most of the time, the company will just contract a really good writer if they need one.

You definitely need to show off that your works sells or show that you can write well. Documenting is the place to start as an entry level job for writers.

I thought about that as soon as I finished my last post. I just might get a major in Writing after I finish my current major, Translation, which isn't that far away from it.

 

[element]

It all started with how I am saying that these specialize game schools are the best way to get into the industry. The old ways are dying because this industry is looking for workers qualified in the field of interest.

you are trying to sell it both ways. So the industry is looking for generalist from specialized schools?

So, tell me. If a designer comes along who shows the quality work of that "great UI designer" and is able to be a level designer, a concept designer, or anything the designer does, who gets the job?

they are going to be hired to be a UI designer and work on....UI. Depending on the person's personality they might 'help' in other aspects, but that isn't their responsibility.

Well, in my case, I'd love to write stories, not the technical documentation (not that there's anything wrong with that). Thing is, I sometimes aim to high, so, in my mind, I want to be the guy who creates and writes narratives and characters and such, you know?

Oh, I know. When I was young and dumb, I dreamed of being a creative director and being able to drive all aspects of a game, including the story. But after working on a couple games, you start to see what people actually do, and your opinion starts to change and the rose-colored view goes away.
If writing stories is your goal, then focusing on studios that have heavy content requirements in terms of story are your best avenue, aka MMO developers.

 

[The Friendly Monster]

To break into the industry into a writer position, you'd have to go through the documentation phase.

Not true, there are entry level jobs in writing roles. e.g.

http://www.jagex.com/corporate/Jobs/Games_Development/Game_Content_Development.ws

 

[beat]

I'm pretty sure programmers make good money, i think having the time to spend it is the problem

They do, but generally any decent game programmer could make more money in any other field than videogames.

Wollan, I'll PM you some thoughts.

 

[sugaki]

Well, in my case, I'd love to write stories, not the technical documentation (not that there's anything wrong with that). Thing is, I sometimes aim to high, so, in my mind, I want to be the guy who creates and writes narratives and characters and such, you know?

For writing gigs, this is a great site.
http://www.mediabistro.com/

I had a co-worker who loved RPGs. Started out as an editor, then wrote manuals, now works at game company writing dialogue for an upcoming major RPG (there's a thread about the game on the top of the page, but I'll let you guess). So you can move into that capacity, it just takes time and some stepping stones.

You just need to show you have great writing ability, is easy to work with, works hard, is professional. Can't tell you how many disaster stories there were with freelancers because they didn't have the latter two. Not sure what Iaido means by documentation, but for they'll usually ask for a sample work, so a blog comes in handy. Myself, I just wrote a review of GTA, didn't have a blog. I'm likely the exception to the rule, though. Fluency in Japanese helped me a lot, so I think that gave a lot of leeway.

 

[Laeth]

How do I go about creating one, then? The game (NWN 1) is pretty cheap these days, and I could easily find it somewhere.

http://nwn.bioware.com/builders/

RAWR!

 

[element]

What EA, Relic, Radical, and other studios value are in the program curriculum.

They value the two or three naturally talented students, as it is cheap recruiting.

 

[noonche]

How do I appear arrogant on this subject?

See, there's this host of industry professionals trying to tell you how things work in a fairly cordial manner, and when you keep telling them they are wrong (in a highly abrasive manner) because their words do not perfectly mesh with your ideals and what your school has taught you... It kinda, maybe, sorta, appears like you're being a know-it-all.

 

[Teriyaki]

I restated this before and again.

What EA, Relic, Radical, and other studios value are in the program curriculum.

It may change in a long time, but this is how it is now for this part of the country, and I'm quite certain it is the same throughout the industry since these are the industry leaders.

You're missing the point. Each of those studios values different things. Each team in each of those studios value different things too. Each person on each team in each studio will value different things as well. You yourself have different things you value and those will change.

Even leaders can fall and rise. Look at LucasArts last month. I hope you don't think all those people were let go because they had no value or because change is slow. They sure didn't see it coming.

I'm not trying to discourage you from the path you've chosen, but there are just things you have yet to see.

 

[flarkminator]

This thread makes me sleepy

 

[MC Safety]

Not to swerve the topic, but I thought to ask some of the pros here...

I've written two video games. Both have seen release, and I'm waiting on news of a third. Once the third has been completed, I think I'd like to move from freelance game writing to a permanent, in-house position.

So. Does anyone have any advice as far as applying for an full-time writing job with a game developer?

Thanks.

 

[Iaido Sword]

Bottom line man, you have no TRUE experience, its just that simple.

Its cool that you have instructors that work for the industry, so does every single other school that has a Game Design course at one point or another. But to sit here and argue with industry vets (and in general people who have been in the industry longer then you... which is everyone) is a complete waste of time and is hurting you more then it is helping...

I say work your ass off and show to future potential employers that you can deliver what you THINK you can achieve and what you talk about in this thread. Its one thing to say it... but its a WHOLE other story to actually DO it... and until then, I think you need to listen to what these people have to say, and stop arguing... ego comes with the gig.... but you need to learn when to swallow it.

Again man... as others have said, companies and workers alike may (and have) read this thread, and right now this "Iaido Sword" dude is not looking to good...

I wish you good luck

And I still hate you...

Can you point out to me who are these industry vets BishopTL and I believe Calen is as well?

I am speaking from the industry vets I know that are my instructors and what they expect from me and anyone who is looking for the job. I am interpreting my experience and being in such a school to people who want a job in the game industry. If the vets hiring expectations are different from what I have been told, then so be it. Perhaps this is a different part of the world, or a different job hiring approach (even though BishopTL's studio is located in the same city and hires grads from my school).

Expectations clash because they are opinions. I definitely know that a generalist is more valuable than a specialist because that is why they train us everything we need to know for the game industry.

you are trying to sell it both ways. So the industry is looking for generalist from specialized schools?

they are going to be hired to be a UI designer and work on....UI. Depending on the person's personality they might 'help' in other aspects, but that isn't their responsibility.

Oh, I know. When I was young and dumb, I dreamed of being a creative director and being able to drive all aspects of a game, including the story. But after working on a couple games, you start to see what people actually do, and your opinion starts to change and the rose-colored view goes away.
If writing stories is your goal, then focusing on studios that have heavy content requirements in terms of story are your best avenue, aka MMO developers.

Good luck trying to find a UI designer school because there is no such thing.

The industry looks for generalist and may just assign them to work on UIs. That designer may become a UI designer for the rest of his life, but he was trained to do other things.

If your story is real, then you lost your dream. I can't say much about that.

They value the two or three naturally talented students, as it is cheap recruiting.

Hiring students who don't have credentials isn't cheap.

See, there's this host of industry professionals trying to tell you how things work in a fairly cordial manner, and when you keep telling them they are wrong (in a highly abrasive manner) because their words do not perfectly mesh with your ideals and what your school has taught you... It kinda, maybe, sorta, appears like you're being a know-it-all.

Uh when did I tell them they were wrong about being a team player?

In fact, I said being a team player is pretty damn important to the job.

You're missing the point. Each of those studios values different things. Each team in each of those studios value different things too. Each person on each team in each studio will value different things as well. You yourself have different things you value and those will change.

Even leaders can fall and rise. Look at LucasArts last month. I hope you don't think all those people were let go because they had no value or because change is slow. They sure didn't see it coming.

I'm not trying to discourage you from the path you've chosen, but there are just things you have yet to see.

You're getting a little too general there. Value in terms of hiring positions will remain fairly the same.

They will hire a qualified team player of a certain field especially if that person came out of the curriculum they set up. If you're a team player, you'll fit into any team.

If their values change, so will the curriculum.

 

[Iaido Sword]

Not to swerve the topic, but I thought to ask some of the pros here...

I've written two video games. Both have seen release, and I'm waiting on news of a third. Once the third has been completed, I think I'd like to move from freelance game writing to a permanent, in-house position.

So. Does anyone have any advice as far as applying for an full-time writing job with a game developer?

Thanks.

Sounds like the first step would be to contact those companies you worked with already.

Did you try that?

 

[Flavius]

Sounds like the first step would be to contact those companies you worked with already.

Did you try that?

:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

 

[noonche]

Good luck trying to find a UI designer school because there is no such thing.

It's called Human-Computer Interaction and it's a branch of psychology. There is tons of research being done into making UIs more usable. There's also Graphic Design for the pretty side of it.

Hiring students who don't have credentials isn't cheap.

But interviewing them and sending out tests is.

Uh when did I tell them they were wrong about being a team player?

They've been trying to correct you on some of you preconceptions for pages now. And you keep telling them that it's different.

 

[arne]

Can you point out to me who are these industry vets BishopTL and I believe Calen is as well?

well, I'm sure there's a lot of folks who don't want to get outed, but there's at least 2-3 more you're missing. i'd assume most of the people responding to you directly are, in fact.

It's called Human-Computer Interaction

all of the successful UI designers I know took this (as a master's degree)

 

[element]

I definitely know that a generalist is more valuable than a specialist because that is why they train us everything we need to know for the game industry.

They teach you on everything to find out what you excel at, not so you can do everything.

Good luck trying to find a UI designer school because there is no such thing.

Actually they do. They are just listed under psychology, process management, human thought, and countless other classes. Sure you can't get a degree in 'UI Design', but what is a degree in 'Game Design' going to do when your 50.

That designer may become a UI designer for the rest of his life, but he was trained to do other things.

Sure most animators can model and modelers can animate, but you hire someone to animate and hire someone else to model. Hell, studios even hire people to make nothing but materials and textures.

 

[Totz]

Oh, I know. When I was young and dumb, I dreamed of being a creative director and being able to drive all aspects of a game, including the story. But after working on a couple games, you start to see what people actually do, and your opinion starts to change and the rose-colored view goes away.

Do you have any stories you can share?

If writing stories is your goal, then focusing on studios that have heavy content requirements in terms of story are your best avenue, aka MMO developers.

My MMOs knowledge is rather limited, so could you (or anyone, for that matter) suggest me some that have great storylines?

For writing gigs, this is a great site.
http://www.mediabistro.com/

I had a co-worker who loved RPGs. Started out as an editor, then wrote manuals, now works at game company writing dialogue for an upcoming major RPG (there's a thread about the game on the top of the page, but I'll let you guess). So you can move into that capacity, it just takes time and some stepping stones.

You just need to show you have great writing ability, is easy to work with, works hard, is professional. Can't tell you how many disaster stories there were with freelancers because they didn't have the latter two. Not sure what Iaido means by documentation, but for they'll usually ask for a sample work, so a blog comes in handy. Myself, I just wrote a review of GTA, didn't have a blog. I'm likely the exception to the rule, though. Fluency in Japanese helped me a lot, so I think that gave a lot of leeway.

I want to be your co-worker.

I was considering doing what Wollan did, actually: getting a domain and putting up some samples there, like articles I've written for Square Enix Music Online (deals with VGM), maybe some screenplay-format stuff I have, etc.

I thought about teaching myself Japanese too, so all I need is a gameplan.

Spoiler

(pun intended)

http://nwn.bioware.com/builders/

RAWR!

Awesome, thanks a bunch!

Again, for game developers: would your company hire people from other countries? Because as of, well, right now, the only prospective employer coming down here is Ubisoft.