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[Iaido Sword]

So on your magical planet, grads are as good and reliable as those who have been in the business for years?

Yeah, I'd totally bet a big job on that. You have no clue.

We're talking about grads from my school versus people who do their training at home.

No idea where you got that from.

That's what proper planning is for. If the leads and production staff do their jobs right, even the most unaware engineer or character artist will know how their work directly impacts other people on the team. This is just Production 101.

A grad will also unlikely to be superbly skilled at all those different fields. You're confusing the issue here, are we talking about genuine skilled cross-discipline generalists or not? Because those are not going to be desperate for a job.

And most companies would also consider this hypothetical high-skilled generalist with no experience a flight risk as coming in on a much lower rate than you're worth means the typical yearly raise won't be enough to get you to the proper level in a timely fashion. After a few years, said generalist can likely get a job anywhere.

You're not quite getting what people are trying to tell you still, are you?

Junior level specialist against a Junior level generalist. Read above where you read wrong.

Fixed.

These industry leaders are grooming you to fit a mold that THEY are looking for. You need to realize that these blanket statements you're making obviously don't apply to the entire industry.

I'm fine with that. EA is here, Relic representing THQ, Radical representing Activision Blizzard, Rockstar Vancouver representing Take2, and I've been told Microsoft's building a studio up here soon.

I'm quite content with what's around me. Vancouver is the second largest part of the gaming industry for North America other than California. Quite a close stepping stone to get into the industry.

 

[Mercutio]

Well, you're definitely not of the industry. :lol

Uh oh, you gonna come over and white out my name in any game manual you find it in?

 

[trilobyte]

Programmers and artists have a set job to do. They do the work designers hand them. They could pick up mistakes, but literal programmers (whom are mainly those who have no experience in games) won't pick it up and let the mistakes slide through.

Being a programmer myself, that's pretty insulting. Programmers are not mindless shrubs who only do what they're told and don't understand the design as a whole.

If that's the mindset of any boss, they'll set themselves up for failure -- and that's true for everything not just game development.

 

[pxleyes]

And here I though this was the best video game school: http://www.fiea.ucf.edu/shield/showpage.php?page_id=1

 

[XiaNaphryz]

Being a programmer myself, that's pretty insulting. Programmers are not mindless shrubs who only do what they're told and don't understand the design as a whole.

I've tried dropping hints, but it obviously didn't work. He's not quite aware of how he's coming across to people, considering how much confusion there is already.

 

[Mercutio]

We're talking about grads from my school versus people who do their training at home.

Are we? Seems like we talk about whatever you think we're talking about. And then only in specific relation to whatever context you think it should be in.

 

[Iaido Sword]

Perhaps, for one reason or another, it's not possible for me to work full-time for the developers of the games in question. Perhaps, I was seeking the advice of people here who may have some expertise (or specific experience) beyond yours.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to give you the advice I had given. You said you wanted in-house work and say you can't work full-time. It's quite a contradiction.

Uh oh, you gonna come over and white out my name in any game manual you find it in?

If you were professional, you would act like it like the other industry people.

Being a programmer myself, that's pretty insulting. Programmers are not mindless shrubs who only do what they're told and don't understand the design as a whole.

If that's the mindset of any boss, they'll set themselves up for failure -- and that's true for everything not just game development.

Apologies if that insulted you. I was specifically saying there are programmers out there that are drones and will not care or notice any game design mistakes. They will literally do what they are told. That's why programmers with game design knowledge are more appealing versus a comsci student of some university.

 

[minus_273]

That's what proper planning is for. If the leads and production staff do their jobs right, even the most unaware engineer or character artist will know how their work directly impacts other people on the team. This is just Production 101.

i cant believe you had to write this comment. it seems the kid you were replying to has never heard of the project manager position. all hail the gantt chart.

 

[Zoe]

and say you can't work full-time. It's quite a contradiction.

Er... that's not what he said.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

If you were professional, you would act like it like the other industry people.

:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

I guess everyone at the office better put away the nerf guns, sell the foosball table, and stop joking around with random insults when something funny happens.

 

[inertiatic]

Programmers and artists have a set job to do. They do the work designers hand them. They could pick up mistakes, but literal programmers (whom are mainly those who have no experience in games) won't pick it up and let the mistakes slide through.

That's a code-monkey, that isn't half of a programmer.

 

[Mercutio]

If you were professional, you would act like it like the other industry people.

Oho! You're sassy. Which industry people are those now? The ones calling you a bullshitter, or the ones who are smarter than us and not even bothering with this thread?

 

[Micromegas]

But this also points out a VERY important (and troubling) issue with today's "Game Schools" they promise you the world but deliver very little unless the person (him or herself) takes the initiative.

I'm glad you posted this. I was going to say something like this, but I didn't want to shatter any bubbles. This thread is depressing enough, but maybe we can help other people.

I work in another field of entertainment and instead of "game schools", we've got "recording schools" that are little more than puppy mills for the industry that make big promises but in reality, there is usually a bias against the people who graduate from those schools because the professionals all know those schools are a scam and you don't get shit for a real education.

I'm not equating the school in question here with the recording schools as I don't know this school in question... it might be great, so let me put it another way: earlier in the thread somebody asked something along the lines of, "is it better to go to USC or school x?"

Pick USC, or any other well-respected university and get your degree there. When an employer takes a look at your education history, or you're trying to get funding for a project, or whatever you are trying to do, it will make a much better impression.

Ya, it sucks, but that's the way it is when an employer is looking at 75 or 100 or 250 resumes to fill a position. Taking two equal candidates, a two-year program/certificate school isn't going to stand-up against a well-rounded 4 year education.

 

[noonche]

Oho! You're sassy. Which industry people are those now? The ones calling you a bullshitter, or the ones who are smarter than us and not even bothering with this thread?

I wish I had been one of them

It's like watching a car crash. Over and over and over...

 

[Iaido Sword]

Er... that's not what he said.

He said he wants an in-house job but can't work full time.

 

[Mercutio]

Pick USC, or any other well-respected university and get your degree there. When an employer takes a look at your education history, or you're trying to get funding for a project, or whatever you are trying to do, it will make a much better impression.

Ya, it sucks, but that's the way it is when an employer is looking at 75 or 100 or 250 resumes to fill a position. Taking two equal candidates, a two-year program/certificate school isn't going to stand-up against a well-rounded 4 year education.

And if you're interested in design, please take a look at the programs in art schools that are well known for their foundation programs. These include, but are not limited to:

SVA, Cal Arts, Ringling, RISD, Pratt, Ringling (Amazing animation program there, from what I hear), Yale, etc etc.

A good foundation in design might SEEM like a lame idea at first... everyone complains that they're not touching a computer. But man, it pays off in the long run.

 

[Zoe]

He said he wants an in-house job but can't work full time.

No, he said he wants an in-house job but can't work full-time for those companies.

You ever think that maybe they don't want to hire on people full-time and that's why he was contract in the first place?

 

[minus_273]

That's a code-monkey, that isn't half of a programmer.

hey, i put a lot of work into tightening up my graphics.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=UJ-QSJmEgHU



on another note, i actually ran into a large traveling salesman problem the other day in a project... it sucked when i realized what it was.

 

[trilobyte]

I think that goes hand in hand with tech companies in general right now.

yeah I don't want to get hired somewhere, get frustrated with everything, and stop making games all together :-/

It's far more satisfying just coding little games up on my free time

 

[Pewp]

He said he wants an in-house job but can't work full time.

What is all this talk about you knowing all the sides of an industry when you are still in school?

 

[Micromegas]

And if you're interested in design, please take a look at the programs in art schools that are well known for their foundation programs. These include, but are not limited to:

SVA, Cal Arts, Ringling, RISD, Pratt, Ringling (Amazing animation program there, from what I hear), Yale, etc etc.

A good foundation in design might SEEM like a lame idea at first... everyone complains that they're not touching a computer. But man, it pays off in the long run.

Totally agree. I'd add Otis to your list of awesome schools. That is an amazing school.

 

[MC Safety]

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to give you the advice I had given. You said you wanted in-house work and say you can't work full-time. It's quite a contradiction.

I can work full-time. Why would I ask for advice in applying to a developer for a full-time job if I was unable to work full-time? What I said was, I am unable to work full-time for either of the companies I have worked for. Simply put, neither has open positions for a full-time writer.

I wanted advice. Instead, I got Captain Obvious.

Try assuming a basic level of intelligence for people who are not you.

It's part of the reason why people in this thread think you're a ...

 

[beat]

http://otersi.com/tempjunk/magoo.jpg

Nice.

hey, i put a lot of work into tightening up my graphics.

Man, I thought we were going to get to page 10 before mentioning that. (Well, aside from MisterHero mentioning it on page 1.)

 

[Zoe]

It's far more satisfying just coding little games up on my free time

That's the route I'm taking right now (and with coding in general). It's nice being able to have control and freedom over what you're doing like that. The hardest part is sticking with your personal projects and bringing them to fruition.

(technically I do work for a game company, but I have no interest in jumping over to the gaming side anyway)

 

[Jon Shafer]

Iaido Sword, why are you trying to convince members of the industry that they're wrong about their own field? Particularly as a student you should be welcoming any advice and supplementing your education with any you can find. No matter what your instructors tell you, you have not been in the industry and don't actually know what it's like. If you truly disagree with what everyone is saying here, focus that energy into getting into the industry and proving them wrong. Most of all, keep an open mind. No one has the all right answers. We gain wisdom from doing, and those who've been around most likely know what they're talking about. If you do get a job in games one day then your opinions will probably be very different 10 years from now just because you'll have all of that experience to build on.

Whether you mean to or not, you are coming off as a know-it-all and rubbing people the wrong way. Some of the guys here may be your peers or even interviewing you for a job one day. Right or wrong, realize that you aren't providing the best impression right now and you'd probably be better served by concentrating on your studies instead of arguing on a forum.

Jon

 

[mrpogi23]

with no game development skills and experience, the only way i can think of is being a QA tester which anybody can go into. then maybe work ur way up as a QA lead or to some sort of a Associate producer

 

[minus_273]

Nice.


Man, I thought we were going to get to page 10 before mentioning that. (Well, aside from MisterHero mentioning it on page 1.)

this thread is kind of a train wreck. It was the first thing that came to mind when i read some of these posts.

 

[trilobyte]

The hardest part is sticking with your personal projects and bringing them to fruition.

Yeah I know what you mean. It's too easy to put something off because of other obligations and by the time you get back to it you're more interested in some other thing

I'm pretty determined right now to get my first 3d game finished though. The hard part has been trying to overcome my lack of personal art talent

stick-figure-robot-man ftw

 

[Alski]

I can work full-time. Why would I ask for advice in applying to a developer for a full-time job if I was unable to work full-time? What I said was, I am unable to work full-time for either of the companies I have worked for. Simply put, neither has open positions for a full-time writer.

I wanted advice. Instead, I got Captain Obvious.

Hey MC, I don't know where you are based out of but I do know that Relic Entertainment has recently established a Narrative Designer position. I don't know if they actively hire for that position (i would be surprised if they did) but it wouldn't hurt to apply especially if you have published games under your belt.
Also BioWare always seems to have openings for writers.
Both of those locations are in Canada so you would have to take that into account.

 

[inertiatic]

this thread is kind of a train wreck. It was the first thing that came to mind when i read some of these posts.

"Kind of" being, obviously, a massive understatement. Shit hit the fan on Iaido's first post.

Aaaand a thread title change, there we go. :lol

 

[Duckhuntdog]

And if you're interested in design, please take a look at the programs in art schools that are well known for their foundation programs. These include, but are not limited to:

SVA, Cal Arts, Ringling, RISD, Pratt, Ringling (Amazing animation program there, from what I hear), Yale, etc etc.

A good foundation in design might SEEM like a lame idea at first... everyone complains that they're not touching a computer. But man, it pays off in the long run.

I agree, you really have to look hard and deep at any art school that is offering a game design degree.

You can add DePaul and Columbia College Chicago to that list, as I have heard great things about their programs and have been told that both schools have part-time faculty that work at such places as Wideload and Midway.

Fullsail is pretty expensive and it is an accelerated program. Meet a few people from there, but many of them had some talent and or skill when joining the program, especially as far as programming goes.

Iaido Sword, work on your people skills. They aren't very positive so far. You have to be able to shut up, listen, and take direction, often more times than give it.

 

[MC Safety]

Hey MC, I don't know where you are based out of but I do know that Relic Entertainment has recently established a Narrative Designer position. I don't know if they actively hire for that position (i would be surprised if they did) but it wouldn't hurt to apply especially if you have published games under your belt.
Also BioWare always seems to have openings for writers.
Both of those locations are in Canada so you would have to take that into account.

Thanks. I'll check those out.

BioWare is also in Austin, Texas, by the way.

 

[blackadde]

iado how much are you paying per year to go to your school?

 

[Cmagus]

I'm gonna have to add to the fire again. sorry

But I wanna know what this dude thinks about the other 80% of people (*grabs number out of thin air) who didn't attend some fancy Game Design course (because they didn't want to, or they weren't invented yet), how the hell did THEY get into the industry!!!!???? Luck? (well some yes but they had the talented and initiative to take them there). Game Designed focused schools have only been around for a short period of time, and for half that time they sucked... and most are still pretty crappy... but they are getting better.

The bottom line is these course's are implemented to teach students the basics, and hopefully touch on some fundamentals, that's it. Hopefully it teaches them about networking too, but the core experiences one recieves as an Artist, Programmer Designer etc. is out their in the job world

 

[balohna]

I just finished up the Game Art and Design program at the Art Institute of Vancouver. I'm pretty eager to start working as a game designer. Any tips for getting my foot in the door?

P.S.
my portfolio: http://www.gameshapedrock.com

 

[Zoe]

stick-figure-robot-man ftw

Hey, make it a stylish stick-figure-robot-man and it might just work! Sometimes great personality and quirkiness are miles beyond uber-realism.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

with no game development skills and experience, the only way i can think of is being a QA tester which anybody can go into. then maybe work ur way up as a QA lead or to some sort of a Associate producer

Getting into QA is only part of the equation - you need to have a long term goal as well. If it's truly production, you'll want to move up to a lead role in QA and get some experience leading a team of people and interacting with multiple departments. Learning more about game production and project management along the way is recommended as well. Then with a little luck you'll be able to find a PA or AP opening and step into production and start learning the ropes all over again. You'll be using different skills depending on the type of production position it is (external producer vs internal dev producer vs tools/pipeline/tech producer vs localization producer, etc). Ideally, you'll touch each area in your career to expand your skillset.

 

[Iaido Sword]

I agree, you really have to look hard and deep at any art school that is offering a game design degree.

You can add DePaul and Columbia College Chicago to that list, as I have heard great things about their programs and have been told that both schools have part-time faculty that work at such places as Wideload and Midway.

Fullsail is pretty expensive and it is an accelerated program. Meet a few people from there, but many of them had some talent and or skill when joining the program, especially as far as programming goes.

Iaido Sword, work on your people skills. They aren't very positive so far. You have to be able to shut up, listen, and take direction, often more times than give it.

Oh my people skills are great. Instructors think I'm a great guy, I work well with people. I'm fine.

I'm here saying that game schools like the Art Institute are a great place to start getting into the industry. Why anyone would disagree is beyond me.

 

[noonche]

Oh my people skills are great. Instructors think I'm a great guy, I work well with people. I'm fine.

I'm here saying that game schools like the Art Institute are a great place to start getting into the industry. Why anyone would disagree is beyond me.

Uh-huh.

 

[Mercutio]

Oh my people skills are great. Instructors think I'm a great guy, I work well with people. I'm fine.

I'm here saying that game schools like the Art Institute are a great place to start getting into the industry. Why anyone would disagree is beyond me.

It's just that... oh... oh my god. My brains, you broke them!

Did you notice the new thread title?

 

[minus_273]

"Kind of" being, obviously, a massive understatement. Shit hit the fan on Iaido's first post.

Aaaand a thread title change, there we go. :lol

im amazed you guys are still engaging that kid. whats the point? he's made up his mind and lives in a very idealistic world.

Iaido, are you planning on being a programmer or something else? what are you doing?

 

[trilobyte]

Hey, make it a stylish stick-figure-robot-man and it might just work! Sometimes great personality and quirkiness are miles beyond uber-realism.

hah hah good suggestion

 

[Mercutio]

I just finished up the Game Art and Design program at the Art Institute of Vancouver. I'm pretty eager to start working as a game designer. Any tips for getting my foot in the door?

P.S.
my portfolio: http://www.gameshapedrock.com

You got my Ikaruga in your flash!

 

[XiaNaphryz]

im amazed you guys are still engaging that kid. whats the point? he's made up his mind and lives in a very idealistic world.

Iaido, are you planning on being a programmer or something else? what are you doing?

No, just the best entry-level game-designer-that-should-really-be-creative-director the world has ever witnessed.

 

[alistairw]

Man, I love it when stuff like this goes down. Keep it up, Iaido, you're making my day.

 

[Alski]

It's just that... oh... oh my god. My brains, you broke them!

Did you notice the new thread title?

AaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!:lol :lol :lol

I didn't notice till you pointed it out but that is pretty clever.

 

[inertiatic]

im amazed you guys are still engaging that kid. whats the point? he's made up his mind and lives in a very idealistic world.

I'm in it for science.

Seriously, it's fascinating to testify the extent to which a certain mindset can cloud the perception of a reality, and how persistantly someone can defend something that is so obviously wrong.

That, or we're all just waiting for a massive meltdown.

 

[Duckhuntdog]

I just finished up the Game Art and Design program at the Art Institute of Vancouver. I'm pretty eager to start working as a game designer. Any tips for getting my foot in the door?

P.S.
my portfolio: http://www.gameshapedrock.com

Yeah, send stuff to companies.

 

[balohna]

Yeah, send stuff to companies.

Haha alright.

Do you mean physical stuff? I've sent a lot of emails.

 

[Mercutio]

I'm in it for science.

Seriously, it's fascinating to testify the extent to which a certain mindset can cloud the perception of a reality, and how persistantly someone can defend something that is so obviously wrong.

That, or we're all just waiting for a massive meltdown.

The meltdown's been happening all day.

And my God, does it taste good on the popcorn.