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[Alski]

Most of that is so completely wrong, but I've honestly lost the will to post anymore. This thread has knackered me out. I'm sure someone else will step in .

That makes two of us brotha

 

[element]

Make a complete game, even a simple one, from scratch in your spare time. Submit the source code for said game with any resumes you send for a coding position. This will make it 100x more likely you will be hired for an entry level position.

Majority of developers wouldn't touch that mail, due to legal mumbojumbo, at least if it was a 'complete game'. Code samples yes.

 

[Vustadumas]

A guy who has no idea how to draw art will learn how to draw art and be "talented". If you disagree, tell me what is talent.

Umm, no. He/she might "learn", but that by no means makes him/her good at it, or "talented" at it. I'm not saying they can't be, but just the desire doesn't make it so. You seem to be dealing in absolutes. Like going to school automatically makes you talented at something.

So say I want to be a quantum physicist. By your definition, all I would need to do is have the desire to do it, and I could make it happen? C'mon, that's just silly. Some people have a natural affinity or "talent" for certain things.

But drive is what can make someone that might be short on talent, excel. Not everyone is the best at what they do, but they can be good enough to get by.

 

[noonche]

I don't think you can counter that point with a single instance, though. He's right. If you know somebody working at a studio, you have an "in". You can get your resume referred and make sure HR knows about it. You can find out about jobs that likely aren't even posted.

Sure, people can get hired without knowing people already inside. That's how it happened for me. But I can tell you right now, you'll have a much better shot overall when you can talk directly with an employee - even if it's HR - compared to just submitting through an online form or catch-all address.

Sure, I agree that knowing someone makes things easier. But if the company you are applying at is seriously recruiting then they will likely take the time to screen all potentially qualified applicants. As long as you're shooting for a position that you possess the skills for, I think you can do it.

 

[element]

Am I going to listen to anonymous posters, which I'm not saying some of you aren't the real deal, I rather listen to my instructors that I personally know and can talk to in person with the credentials of many games under their wing.

It is in their best interest to keep you in school and make you think that your money is being well spent.

Considering how much some of these schools cost, most often then not, a general education from a CC or state university can do just as much as a 'game degree'. Not to mention provide far more options outside of the game industry.

 

[nib95]

I want one. I think I'd make a top tier game conceptual designer. Characters, storyboarding, ideas, backgrounds, weapons, enemies, vehicles etc. I can draw/design up these things with creative flair and ease. (Modesty switch was off.)

 

[Laeth]

*snip*

Thank you, you obviously have more perseverance than me ^_^.

 

[Cromulent_Word]

That makes two of us brotha

+1

 

[Calen]

Majority of developers wouldn't touch that mail, due to legal mumbojumbo, at least if it was a 'complete game'. Code samples yes.

A working code sample is always more valuable than a snippet that doesn't even compile and run. A complete project of ANY sort demonstrates much more initiative than some random C++ file.

You don't tell artists to not submit complete drawings in their portfolio, right? I'm speaking from experience here, based on what WE want when we hire entry level people.

 

[prodystopian]

Make a complete game, even a simple one, from scratch in your spare time. Submit the source code for said game with any resumes you send for a coding position. This will make it 100x more likely you will be hired for an entry level position.

Thank you.

What if I design an RPG (think NES Final Fantasies) and applied with a company that does shooters and platformers? Will game type matter or is more the fact that I have done coding and seen the project through?

 

[element]

A working code sample is always more valuable than a snippet that doesn't even compile and run. A complete project of ANY sort demonstrates much more initiative than some random C++ file.

You don't tell artists to not submit complete drawings in their portfolio, right? I'm speaking from experience here, based on what WE want when we hire entry level people.

Oh I totally agree with your statement in terms of that is far more impressive and would increase your chances of being noticed. I'm just saying that some companies might be leery about having unsolicited code.
Probably the safe route would be have your samples or demo available to download (secure or unsecured) and allow the company to download at their own discretion.

What if I design an RPG (think NES Final Fantasies) and applied with a company that does shooters and platformers? Will game type matter or is more the fact that I have done coding and seen the project through?

Depends on the coding position. If you worked on a NES game and applied for a network programmer, they might scratch their head a little. If you apply for a game system or generalist programmer that would be better.

 

[The Friendly Monster]

Thank you.

What if I design an RPG (think NES Final Fantasies) and applied with a company that does shooters and platformers? Will game type matter or is more the fact that I have done coding and seen the project through?

Would you be applying for a coding job or a design job?

 

[prodystopian]

Oh I totally agree with your statement in terms of that is far more impressive and would increase your chances of being noticed. I'm just saying that some companies might be leery about having unsolicited code.

Depends on the coding position. If you worked on a NES game and applied for a network programmer, they might scratch their head a little. If you apply for a game system or generalist programmer that would be better.

If I do go this route, it will definitely be for generalist or gameplay (my current preference) coding.

This thread (despite its beginning and arguing) has provided me with some good insight about what I should do between now and the next time I apply. I really need to try some real coding to see if I actually would be interested in doing this. Thanks for the info, GAF.

Edit:

Would you be applying for a coding job or a design job?

Coding. I am currently programming but in VHDL.

 

[Andronicus]

Yes absolutely everyone in CS wants to grind and get overworked for meager pay. Just cause we like games so much we're ready to sacrifice everything including our social life.

I know you like games, but think ahead a bit too.

I'm pretty sure programmers make good money, i think having the time to spend it is the problem

 

[bishoptl]

If something is wrong, designers have to pick it up and find a fix, and if they didn't pick it up and the problem goes on retail, it's ultimately the designers fault for not picking it up. Programmers and artists have a set job to do. They do the work designers hand them. They could pick up mistakes, but literal programmers (whom are mainly those who have no experience in games) won't pick it up and let the mistakes slide through.

You believe this, huh? Wow. Thankfully the VFS grads I've come across - meaning the ones that actually get hired - don't have that sort of attitude at all. I hope you take the time between now and graduation to check yourself. Good luck.

 

[Calen]

Oh I totally agree with your statement in terms of that is far more impressive and would increase your chances of being noticed. I'm just saying that some companies might be leery about having unsolicited code.

Thing is, if you're sending a resume and portfolio to a company in response to a job posting on their website, it's not unsolicited.

If he or she is that worried about it, it'd also work to send a sample with a note making it very clear that the sample is part of a complete, working project that is freely available for review.

I've never been personally part of the hiring process at any company that would reject a programming resume out of hand just because it contained an actual executable (or at least a fully compiling project), but I can concede that it might make some people nervous.

 

[Andronicus]

Are there any game industry jobs in Georgia or the surrounding states?

NC and FL

 

[Calen]

Thank you.

What if I design an RPG (think NES Final Fantasies) and applied with a company that does shooters and platformers? Will game type matter or is more the fact that I have done coding and seen the project through?

For me, it's more that you've done the coding and seen the project through. If you can match a simple game to the genre specific to the companies you're applying for, though, all the better.

By demonstrating any ability in this area at all, you'll elevate yourself over 90% of the other applicants before you even show up at the office. Trust me.

 

[blackadde]

If something is wrong, designers have to pick it up and find a fix, and if they didn't pick it up and the problem goes on retail, it's ultimately the designers fault for not picking it up. Programmers and artists have a set job to do. They do the work designers hand them. They could pick up mistakes, but literal programmers (whom are mainly those who have no experience in games) won't pick it up and let the mistakes slide through.

If an artist screws up and puts in the wrong colour, the designer with proper training will be able to pick it up. If there's a bad sound effect at a certain stage, then the designer has to be able to hear the problem and fix it with the sound effect designers.

treating an artist like a tool is the FASTEST way to get them to quit. it shows that you don't trust them to do their job as a professional. they're hired for the insight they have on their trade, not because they know how to use photoshop's color picker.

 

[element]

If he or she is that worried about it, it'd also work to send a sample with a note making it very clear that the sample is part of a complete, working project that is freely available for review.

I think that is a great thing to do. Make it clear that you won't go sue the company or something.
I guess I compare it to the 'We don't accept unsolicited game ideas', in fear of being sued.

 

[Totz]

About portfolios, would it be confusing if it was mixed? Say I send a portfolio with some written stuff and some music. Would that tip the hiring balance to my favour or would it be confusing as in "What does this guy want?"?

 

[XiaNaphryz]

You believe this, huh? Wow. Thankfully the VFS grads I've come across - meaning the ones that actually get hired - don't have that sort of attitude at all. I hope you take the time between now and graduation to check yourself. Good luck.

High five!

 

[Wollan]

Slightly embarrassing to open myself to NeoGAF like this but last week I sent my first games job application. I put up a portfolio website for whatever company to take a look at. I would just like some (honest) feedback if people didn't mind. *Link* Right now I'm aiming towards working my way up from a tester position.

 

[noonche]

If I do go this route, it will definitely be for generalist or gameplay (my current preference) coding.

This thread (despite its beginning and arguing) has provided me with some good insight about what I should do between now and the next time I apply. I really need to try some real coding to see if I actually would be interested in doing this. Thanks for the info, GAF.

Edit:


Coding. I am currently programming but in VHDL.

I'm not saying don't do an RPG, just keep the scope under control and see it through to the end. Getting that whole experience of getting a project working is a lot of what's important, be it a simple game or more of a scene-demo type of application.

 

[Iaido Sword]

You believe this, huh? Wow. Thankfully the VFS grads I've come across - meaning the ones that actually get hired - don't have that sort of attitude at all. I hope you take the time between now and graduation to check yourself. Good luck.

I didn't go into deep detail in a working team community, so spare me the insults if I didn't write a whole essay about what designers do.

I do find it strange you would call me out on this because it's based on what I'm learning at school, and I heard about a designer on your Turok team is a graduate from the exact same Art Institute program I am in.

 

[element]

About portfolios, would it be confusing if it was mixed? Say I send a portfolio with some written stuff and some music. Would that tip the hiring balance to my favour or would it be confusing as in "What does this guy want?"?

Most studios are looking for specific roles or positions. So if you apply for a design position and include music, that might confuse them.

Also I see lots of people talking about 'writing samples', when really those design jobs really are hard to come by. If you are interested in design, fire up CryEngine 2/Unreal Editor/Hammer and create a compelling combat encounter, because that is what you would be doing far more then writing dialogue or story.

 

[Calen]

I didn't go into deep detail in a working team community, so spare me the insults if I didn't write a whole essay about what designers do.

I do find it strange you would call me out on this because it's based on what I'm learning at school, and I heard about a designer on your Turok team is a graduate from the exact same Art Institute program I am in.

Pretty sure Bish's point is that this is not anywhere remotely close to how it actually works in the real world. If this is what they're telling you at school, then I really don't know what to say except that you're in for a shock once you land at a real company.

 

[Andronicus]

For me, it's more that you've done the coding and seen the project through. If you can match a simple game to the genre specific to the companies you're applying for, though, all the better.

By demonstrating any ability in this area at all, you'll elevate yourself over 90% of the other applicants before you even show up at the office. Trust me.

good to see encouraging and informative posts from actual devs.

 

[rinker]

*Link*

I'm pretty sure theres a zero percent chance anyone will sit through your Fragments video just because the sound is atrocious. If theres some good stuff on there you might wanna rerecord it with a better mic/conditions(I think i could hear your AC or something).

Good luck

 

[prodystopian]

Most studios are looking for specific roles or positions. So if you apply for a design position and include music, that might confuse them.

Also I see lots of people talking about 'writing samples', when really those design jobs really are hard to come by. If you are interested in design, fire up CryEngine 2/Unreal Editor/Hammer and create a compelling combat encounter, because that is what you would be doing far more then writing dialogue or story.

Can you elaborate by what you mean by that? Creating enemies to fight against? or modding stuff that is already there? I haven't used any editors yet, so I'm not sure what this means.

 

[Teriyaki]

I definitely agree with what many of my peers in the industry have said, but I want to point out something for those who are still in school.

In school, you're generally given a specific task to complete which leads to a specific outcome. In any industry though - no matter what your ability is - things are not so black and white.

You may get hired for something and end up working on something else. You may find some of your skills in great demand and others that you will never use again. You may get hired for a specific role and end up in a different one. You may be rejected because while your skill is amazing, you're not a good fit for the team.

Many, many times there is no right or wrong answer and that's always difficult to realize when you transition from school to career.

 

[Wollan]

Yeah, I re-recorded it the other day (on a pc that gels nicely with fraps). Should have that up soonish.

 

[Iaido Sword]

Pretty sure Bish's point is that this is not anywhere remotely close to how it actually works in the real world. If this is what they're telling you at school, then I really don't know what to say except that you're in for a shock once you land at a real company.

Tell me that to the lead designer of some company I will not name, he taught me that.

Artist draw the art, modelers make the models, programmers code, and they could put in their ideas for the game. Some ideas may be good, some might not make it.

The designer makes it all work together with the mechanics, and if something doesn't work, they go back to the source and find the fix for it.

 

[element]

Can you elaborate by what you mean by that? Creating enemies to fight against? or modding stuff that is already there? I haven't used any editors yet, so I'm not sure what this means.

Let's use CryEngine2/Crysis as an example. You can create a scenario where you fight with the AI. You can setup how the AI reacts to the player and what not. How you wire the encounter and how the AI react to the environment and the player is key.

 

[Cryect]

Are there any game industry jobs in Georgia or the surrounding states?

Sure, there is the CCP North America office in Atlanta which is currently in major expansions. http://ccpgames.com/jobs.aspx

Good luck to you. I find the industry general has it's head up its ass regarded internships as in, they never have them. That doesn't mean you shouldn't look, just be prepared for a difficult search.

They do exist though and we've had 3 in the past several months in programming. Should make note though these were all for grad level people.

Okay, is there any good literature on Lua that I should look at?

http://www.lua.org/pil/
http://www.lua.org/manual/5.1/

 

[Andronicus]

Tell me that to the lead designer of some company I will not name, he taught me that.

Artist draw the art, modelers make the models, programmers code, and they could put in their ideas for the game. Some ideas may be good, some might not make it.

The designer makes it all work together with the mechanics, and if something doesn't work, they go back to the source and find the fix for it.

was this lorne lanning?

 

[prodystopian]

Let's use CryEngine2/Crysis as an example. You can create a scenario where you fight with the AI. You can setup how the AI reacts to the player and what not. How you wire the encounter and how the AI react to the environment and the player is key.

Is that free to develop on?

 

[element]

The designer makes it all work together with the mechanics, and if something doesn't work, they go back to the source and find the fix for it.

Which designer? You have level designers, you have level scripters, you have technical designers, you have content designer, you have design director, you have system designer, not to mention others.

Your example is really cut and dry, and really not how it works in the industry.

Is that free to develop on?

You can get Crysis for $30. The tools come with the game. Same with UT3 and HL2.

 

[prodystopian]

Which designer? You have level designers, you have level scripters, you have technical designers, you have content designer, you have design director, you have system designer, not to mention others.

Your example is really cut and dry, and really not how it works in the industry.

You can get Crysis for $30. The tools come with the game. Same with UT3 and HL2.

Awesome. I have all three. I'll be looking into that stuff. I guess I should check my program list sometime instead of just the executable on the desktop. Thanks!

 

[Iaido Sword]

Which designer? You have level designers, you have level scripters, you have technical designers, you have content designer, you have design director, you have system designer, not to mention others.

Your example is really cut and dry, and really not how it works in the industry.

You can get Crysis for $30. The tools come with the game. Same with UT3 and HL2.

Game designers.

The people who are credited as designers.

They may have specific tasks within those tasks that I mention, but that's what they should know to begin with. The designer should be able to do all that you mentioned.

If a designer was assigned to make a UI for the game, he or she would have his or her little team with an artist and a programmer to make it work. They're always leading a team of some sort because they are the drivers.

 

[element]

Awesome. I have all three. I'll be looking into that stuff. I guess I should check my program list sometime instead of just the executable on the desktop. Thanks!

There are some great tutorials out there for Hammer (HL2), CryEngine2, and UE3 on the web.

http://www.crymod.com has some amazing professional tutorials on basic level construction to some AI interaction for CryEngine2
http://www.3dbuzz.com has some AMAZING tutorials for Unreal 2004 and UE3. They go into some really hardcore details in their tutorials.

Best thing to do is start small and work your way up.

The designer should be able to do all that you mentioned.

Keep dreaming. Games are far to complex for a designer to do everything. Your idea of a 'designer' seems to be in the idea of someone like Jaffe or Kojima.

If a designer was assigned to make a UI for the game, he or she would have his or her little team with an artist and a programmer to make it work. They're always leading a team of some sort because they are the drivers.

That is more of an ideal situation then the norm.

 

[Totz]

Most studios are looking for specific roles or positions. So if you apply for a design position and include music, that might confuse them.

I know writing positions are even harder to come by than design positions, but what if I can prove I can write a (hopefully) good story and accompany it with some (hopefully) good music? Wouldn't that show I can do more than just one thing?

 

[Alski]

gone... i don’t want to discourage people

 

[element]

I know writing positions are even harder to come by than design positions, but what if I can prove I can write a (hopefully) good story and accompany it with some (hopefully) good music? Wouldn't that show I can do more than just one thing?

Well the other aspect of 'game stories' is what you write really hardly ever ends up the same by the time the game is complete.
I don't want to be the person breaking anyone's dreams, but check sites like Gamasutra, CreativeHeads.net, and other job sites and look for positions that have 'story writing' as a job. Writing documentation about your design is VASTLY different then writing a story.

Typically 'writing' skills for design jobs entails your ability to write clean and concise requirements and flush out an entire system or component.

 

[Laeth]

I know writing positions are even harder to come by than design positions, but what if I can prove I can write a (hopefully) good story and accompany it with some (hopefully) good music? Wouldn't that show I can do more than just one thing?

Some studios do hire internal writers (normally RPG developers like BioWare and Obsidian), but they have to have multiple projects on the go at the same time, otherwise writers will spend an awful lot of time doing nothing.

In these instances, developers will normally get freelancers in to work for a set period of time - normally under the direction of one of the Senior or Lead Designers. That, or they just get it outsourced externally.

BioWare have been known to hire writers from their community. They offer a lot of tools for writing game scenarios within their games and often ask for something to be submitted using the tools they provide. Failing that - they like to hire published writers, people who have proven that they can write.

I'm not a writer, or someone who hires writers - but that's the observations I've made from working in a few developers and what I've heard from colleagues .

 

[Iaido Sword]

Keep dreaming. Games are far to complex for a designer to do everything. Your idea of a 'designer' seems to be in the idea of someone like Jaffe or Kojima.

That is more of an ideal situation then the norm.

I said designers have to know how to do all that you mention. I didn't say they are suppose to do everything. I don't know how you make up that stuff.

If a level designer can't switch to make a UI, he's screwed. There are no designers that do a specific job all the time. Designers have to be versatile.

The reason your teachers might tell you that ‘hard work’ will get you the job and not talent is because schools only make money if they have students. If they were honest with all their students and told them the truth about needing talent or they don’t have a chance, they would loose their enrollment rate and wouldn't make any money.

I personally know a lot of very hard working individuals that didn’t get jobs out of university; because even though they have amazing work ethic and busted their asses (like I’m sure you do), they couldn’t help push the dev team forward.

Belief can alter observations; those with a particular belief will often see things as reinforcing their belief, even if they are untrue. I hate to be a party pooper but that’s the cold hard truth and the truth can really hurt.

Wow, so don't even goto elementary because you can learn basic English on your own.

School is important, and Post-secondary school is what puts people to the working standard. This whole idea that instructors are there just for your money is rebellious bullshit.

Tell me, why would an EA lead modeler, who makes a shitload of money, get a teaching job at some school? Definitely not for more money because he already makes a ridiculous amounts. They love doing their job, they want to teach people how to do their job.

 

[Alski]

Tell me, why would an EA lead modeler, who makes a shitload of money, get a teaching job at some school? Definitely not for more money because he already makes a ridiculous amounts. They love doing their job, they want to teach people how to do their job.

Or because they get big bucks for recruiting the individuals with the most talent. You should ask that lead modeler how much they make per referral that gets hired.

 

[element]

If a level designer can't switch to make a UI, he's screwed. There are no designers that do a specific job all the time. Designers have to be versatile.

What a company would typically do is have a UI DESIGNER, who understands usability, flow, context, and ease of use. They wouldn't put some random level design and say 'hey go help make UI now.'
Also skills of making a good enemy encounter is VASTLY different then making a UI, or writing a story, designing cinematics.

Designer is not a generalized position anymore. Designers are specialized.

Tell me, why would an EA lead modeler, who makes a shitload of money, get a teaching job at some school? Definitely not for more money because he already makes a ridiculous amounts. They love doing their job, they want to teach people how to do their job.

Well for one, I highly doubt this 'lead modeler' makes ridiculous amounts of money, because if he did he wouldn't be doing anything. People don't take two jobs because they have too much money.
Two many leads becomes teachers to find cheap labor and teach them how they want them to work. To fall in line if you will.
And as Alski said, ask was his referral bonus is.

 

[prodystopian]

There are some great tutorials out there for Hammer (HL2), CryEngine2, and UE3 on the web.

http://www.crymod.com has some amazing professional tutorials on basic level construction to some AI interaction for CryEngine2
http://www.3dbuzz.com has some AMAZING tutorials for Unreal 2004 and UE3. They go into some really hardcore details in their tutorials.

Best thing to do is start small and work your way up.

Keep dreaming. Games are far to complex for a designer to do everything. Your idea of a 'designer' seems to be in the idea of someone like Jaffe or Kojima.

That is more of an ideal situation then the norm.

Thanks again for all of the info.

 

[Calen]

Tell me that to the lead designer of some company I will not name, he taught me that.

Artist draw the art, modelers make the models, programmers code, and they could put in their ideas for the game. Some ideas may be good, some might not make it.

The designer makes it all work together with the mechanics, and if something doesn't work, they go back to the source and find the fix for it.

You've got a crowd of game industry people replying to you in this thread. If you want to believe your instructor over us, that's your prerogative of course, but you shouldn't be surprised that you're getting the emphatic response you're getting from people who are already doing this for a living every day.

I am specifically referring to the following:

If something is wrong, designers have to pick it up and find a fix, and if they didn't pick it up and the problem goes on retail, it's ultimately the designers fault for not picking it up. Programmers and artists have a set job to do. They do the work designers hand them. They could pick up mistakes, but literal programmers (whom are mainly those who have no experience in games) won't pick it up and let the mistakes slide through.

With all due respect to your lead design experienced instructor (whom I am really hoping you misunderstood or misquoted and does not actually believe this him or herself), this is just not how it works. Everyone on a team is responsible for the game being good. Saying it's up to the designers and the other people on the project are just doing their jobs by rote as the designers hand it to them is, frankly, one of the most bogus things I have ever heard.

Think about it for a moment. You're suggesting that the designers on this hypothetical team also have enough domain specific knowledge about engineering and art to be able to find all of the mistakes in the programming and the art, and furthermore, that it should be their responsibility to do so. You're actually suggesting that the artists just do what the designers tell them and don't have significant huge input into art direction, styles, color choices, etc?