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[KTallguy]

People in the industry should look at the methods of how other developers make games. MGS4 documentaries provide a great inside on how things work at Kojima Productions. The industry should pay attention to Blizzard's developer panels at the WWI. These are the best developers in the world and to mock the insight is just being ignorant

I don't know what kind of fantasy goggles you have on, but looking at the documentary and inferring that Kojima Pro. didn't cut anything is naive and moronic.

Every project has cuts to meet schedule, especially huge projects like MGS4. Even Nintendo games like Brawl cut features that they wanted to implement, even though Nintendo has tons of $$ and time. It's all about balancing schedule, budget, and all the other variables.

You go to game school or something?

 

[Sqorgar]

It's different everywhere, but there's another often overlooked element you're missing, which is: How easy are you to hire? This encompasses a wide variety of non-skill related stuff from work visas, cost of relocation, salary demands, availability, etc.

That would be under step 6, in which the different viable candidates are compared and contrasted based on their pros and cons. Convenience. Ah, to be judged on convenience - been a dream of mine since I was a little kid.

What I want to know is, in exactly which of these 7 steps does one locate and hire the next Shigeru Miyamoto, Ron Gilbert, Will Wright, Sid Meier, John Carmack, or Peter Molyneaux? I'm just curious which stage one should concentrate on if one wants to hire exceptional game creators. For the life of me, I can't even figure out how this process works well enough to hire even "just barely good enough", much less resulting in a more creative, artistic, and virtuous game industry.

This entire thread has been about people arguing the best way to get into the game industry, but it's all just a game. People want to min max the system so that they have an advantage that somebody else doesn't. But at the end of the day, shouldn't people be hired based on talent and vision rather than how well they game a broken system? Personally, I could care less is crappy company X hires crappy employee Y to finish retarded game Z, but I do feel like the system is a failure if finding visionary talent is due to nothing more than random chance.

 

[Haeleos]

The only thing I truly gained from school... are my friends.

True true.

 

[platypotamus]

There are many people who would disagree with you.

People in the industry should look at the methods of how other developers make games. MGS4 documentaries provide a great inside on how things work at Kojima Productions. The industry should pay attention to Blizzard's developer panels at the WWI. These are the best developers in the world and to mock the insight is just being ignorant.

The people that would disagree with me have more patience for coming up with words than I do, but they'd still agree with me on my point.

You have a seriously flawed perception of reality. If Kojima "crunched his team", it does not logically follow that the game is good BECAUSE he crunched his team. It could just as easily go back to what (I believe) Mercutio said earlier, something about things being much better without the crunch. There are studies dating back literally over 100 years that indicate crunching is pretty much the worst way to produce anything. Someone even linked to an article that discusses some of those studies earlier in this thread.

Also: You're ignoring an important part of reality as far as Blizzard and Kojima Productions goes. I'm sure lots of companies would love to follow Blizzard's example. They'd particularly like to start at the part where Blizzard has a pretty much limitless supply of funds with which to experiment. Note the rather sordid history of Starcraft:Ghost's development. Heck, even most of their games that have seen release have been rebuilt from scratch multiple times. Are the results good? Sure. Is this the best possible way to make a game? Probably not. Are there many developers out there who could possibly work that way? No.

You seem to be ignoring large amounts of data simply because it doesn't agree with your point. Perhaps if game development doesn't work out for you, you should go into politics.

 

[pj]

weird thread

people need to stop paying attention to Iaido Sword. There have been at least 200 well thought out posts directed at him and he still doesn't get it.

On topic..

I'm a CS major, transferring as a junior to a university this fall. I seem to do well in math and also hate it less than most other people, so I'm thinking of doing a dual major in CS and math. Would that have any benefit in the games industry? Not just in the hiring process, but in the actual work of making games.

 

[platypotamus]

I'm a CS major, transferring as a junior to a university this fall. I seem to do well in math and also hate it less than most other people, so I'm thinking of doing a dual major in CS and math. Would that have any benefit in the games industry? Not just in the hiring process, but in the actual work of making games.

Depends on the particular programming job you were doing, but my general opinion is that more math is always good. Probability/Stats can be extremely useful, the Calc/Physics stuff can as well. The more logic based math classes are incredibly useful too.

Plus, if your CS major is anything like mine was, you're like halfway there anyway. I could have gotten a Math minor with only one more class, but decided to get a philosophy minor instead.

Shut up, the philosophy minor was so useful, quite often in fact.

 

[element]

hey'd particularly like to start at the part where Blizzard has a pretty much limitless supply of funds with which to experiment. Note the rather sordid history of Starcraft:Ghost's development.

Have you heard or played any of these Blizzard games?

• Games People Play
• Crixa
• Shattered Nations
• Pax Imperia
• Denizen
• Warcraft Adventures
• Nomad
• Raiko

Blizzard is in the rare situation that allows them to throw bodies, talent, and vast amounts of time to prototype. 99.9% of developers in the industry don't have that luxury. Not even Kojima Productions, NCL, ID, have that type of 'work until it is perfect'.

Also cuts are part of game development. Sure it sucks when a major feature gets cut, but no one is throwing eggs at a developer for cutting the things that don't work out as planned. Game developer is like being a cook. You spend time, throw some things together, let it cook, and you taste it. Sometimes you end up with something awesome, and sometimes you just want to vomit.

 

[ShinNL]

Oh my god, at my school there was once a semester where the group leader was a self-centric business type student (I study "Computer science" which is mixed with business, some excel at programming, some excel at business).

Man! Did that semester suck. At one point he was even trying to tell me (I excel at programming) how and what I should program to get a certain (huge) application working. He couldn't lead the project for shit and was trying so hard to be a manager (which he failed at completely), that he didn't produce anything himself.

The worst of all, he didn't take any of the feedback at the end of the semester given by the team and he rated himself higher than everyone else.

This Iaido guy just made me deja vu'd this guy.

Learn to listen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! *shakes fist*
(In this case: read and absorb comments)

ABSORB.

 

[Iaido Sword]

That EA is full of shit. Go to https://jobs.ea.com and look at the jobs. They even have a column called SPECIALTY. You don't see jobs for 'artist', you see jobs for rigger, character animator, environment artist, character artist.

Lets just take some jobs from the site:
World/Environment Modeler
Character Animator
Interface Designer
Technical Artist

Those seem pretty specific to me.

That is difficult for anyone. Better to have your eyes set on China or Korea then Japan.

OMG! You just don't get it. Gamers would be even more pissed if all the features in the game sucked because no one had time to polish them.

ummm, Seattle...Vancouver is only where it is because of EAC and all the companies that have been started by former EAC employees.

My EA instructor started out as an environment modeler, but he started to do other things as it was a part of the job. They say they want those jobs to be filled, but when you put two people side by side and one can do more, they pick the one who can do more. Anyone who expects to do just one thing will be set up for a surprise.

I'm sure you've heard the outburst against the decision to cut Too Human's 4 player coop. It's either you have it in and chance that it is unpolished, or you take it out and already take the bad publicity. I do say chance because hard work and dedication can pull off amazing stuff.

Seattles great. Not going to argue that. Just that EA has a lot of influence and Rockstar, yeah you know what they're up to.

None of them work in the industry, though.

Do you really believe that KojiPro or Blizzard never cut features?

Just because you never heard the game was going to have it doesn't mean it didn't get cut at some point.

So the industry takes a blind eye to each other's work? I don't think that's the case. Developers do want to learn from each other.

Blizzard has all the time in the world, so they don't cut things out. Kojima is pretty damn adamant about not cutting anything that is good in the game, so I'm willing to bet he hadn't either for MGS4. MGS4 is quite a complete gaming package.

Have you heard or played any of these Blizzard games?

• Games People Play
• Crixa
• Shattered Nations
• Pax Imperia
• Denizen
• Warcraft Adventures
• Nomad
• Raiko

Blizzard is in the rare situation that allows them to throw bodies, talent, and vast amounts of time to prototype. 99.9% of developers in the industry don't have that luxury. Not even Kojima Productions, NCL, ID, have that type of 'work until it is perfect'.

Also cuts are part of game development. Sure it sucks when a major feature gets cut, but no one is throwing eggs at a developer for cutting the things that don't work out as planned. Game developer is like being a cook. You spend time, throw some things together, let it cook, and you taste it. Sometimes you end up with something awesome, and sometimes you just want to vomit.

Umm those Blizzard games were completely shut down, so it doesn't relate to the same kind of cutting as I mention.

Let's just make this clear, rather than cutting an important element of the game, if it could be realistically achieve with a week of crunch time and overtime, then it is not a good decision just to cut it. Of course if it can't be achieved because it requires month of work to make it work, then it would need to cut.

The argument is boiled down to this whole idea that sleep deprivation will negatively impact the studio and the product. I don't think it will always be that case.

So to call hardworking students, who I said are doing 24/7 workloads at school, having poor time management is just an insult with no grounds of argument.

 

[pj]

Depends on the particular programming job you were doing, but my general opinion is that more math is always good. Probability/Stats can be extremely useful, the Calc/Physics stuff can as well. The more logic based math classes are incredibly useful too.

Plus, if your CS major is anything like mine was, you're like halfway there anyway. I could have gotten a Math minor with only one more class, but decided to get a philosophy minor instead.

Shut up, the philosophy minor was so useful, quite often in fact.

..i want to minor in philosophy.. wait, do dual majors even have minors? I should probably talk to the school about this

I took more math than I needed while I was at community college because there wasn't much else to take. That's the main reason I started thinking about getting heavier into math at university.

Edit: STAY STRONG, people, ignore him

 

[Mercutio]

The argument is boiled down to this whole idea that sleep deprivation will negatively impact the studio and the product. I don't think it will always be that case.

So to call hardworking students, who I said are doing 24/7 workloads at school, having poor time management is just an insult with no grounds of argument.

This kind of ignorance makes me angry. Like, seriously, literally, angry.

How DARE you? I'm done here. Just done. What a total douchebag you are, to even suggest this kind of bullshit.

 

[blazinglazers]

I went to the best film school in the country, achieved everything I could while I was in, and was graduating with the highest honors. While I had specialized to the best of my ability, I was in essence still a "generalist." And then I made a thesis film my last semester. I learned more from doing & working with my classmates than I ever did from my teachers. And after graduating, I worked my first real job as a second-second assistant director, and learned as much in those 72 hours as I did during the previous 4 years. My education was crucial, but it was also incomplete. I lacked experience.

When you truly learn something, you learn how much you don't really know.

I wish I could go back and drop some knowledge on my inexperienced school self. That's what people are trying to do here Iaido Sword, and that's the opportunity you're shitting away because you're too inexperienced to realize, too stubborn to learn, or too stupid to care.

Wake up.

The only thing I truly gained from school... are my friends. Each and every one of them are in the industry. Hell, I work with some of them right now. I learned more from my classmates than any of my instructors, and some of them were "in the industry" as well.

School isn't a long interviewing process, Iaido :lol It's there to guide you, that's all. Don't buy so blindly into what your instructors tell you. You should have them hop on here and we can get this whole mess straightened out :lol

Perfect.

 

[Iaido Sword]

Oh my god, at my school there was once a semester where the group leader was a self-centric business type student (I study "Computer science" which is mixed with business, some excel at programming, some excel at business).

Man! Did that semester suck. At one point he was even trying to tell me (I excel at programming) how and what I should program to get a certain (huge) application working. He couldn't lead the project for shit and was trying so hard to be a manager (which he failed at completely), that he didn't produce anything himself.

The worst of all, he didn't take any of the feedback at the end of the semester given by the team and he rated himself higher than everyone else.

This Iaido guy just made me deja vu'd this guy.

Learn to listen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! *shakes fist*
(In this case: read and absorb comments)

ABSORB.

I work, so your story doesn't apply to me.

I agree that your leader did a bad job and you probably should have had the instructors kick his ass. I never said I would tell people how to do their job. These guys painted that picture on me, and if you want to believe that, I'm not going to say otherwise.

I had said that designers need to know how everyone on his team works in order to maximize the productivity of the a game coming together. A designer should be able to have the ability to critically assess those people's work.

If an artist drew something he or she thinks is amazing for the game but took a completely wrong direction from what the game is suppose to be, the designer would be on it, and if that artists gets mighty pissed off and says the designer shouldn't criticize the work because the designer isn't qualified, then that artist would be fired on the legitimate grounds that the designer has enough knowledge about art.

The system is a lot deeper than I am saying, but imagine this for a small team. It is how it will be.

 

[Won]

I like that guy. He is like the second generation of the Dyack.

Blizzard has all the time in the world, so they don't cut things out.

They didn't even ship the full Orc campaign of Frozen Throne at release.

 

[platypotamus]

..i want to minor in philosophy.. wait, do dual majors even have minors? I should probably talk to the school about this

At my school that was an impossibility unless you took a lot of extra classes, or had TONS of AP credit. My sister actually did it, but she went into college and was already considered a sophomore because of all her AP credits.

Blizzard has all the time in the world, so they don't cut things out.

I can't wait to send a link to this post to one of my friends down there. I just wish I could see his reaction in person. :lol

 

[Iaido Sword]

I went to the best film school in the country, achieved everything I could while I was in, and was graduating with the highest honors. While I had specialized to the best of my ability, I was in essence still a "generalist." And then I made a thesis film my last semester. I learned more from doing & working with my classmates than I ever did from my teachers. And after graduating, I worked my first real job as a second-second assistant director, and learned as much in those 72 hours as I did during the previous 4 years. My education was crucial, but it was also incomplete. I lacked experience.

When you truly learn something, you learn how much you don't really know.

I wish I could go back and drop some knowledge on my inexperienced school self. That's what people are trying to do here Iaido Sword, and that's the opportunity you're shitting away because you're too inexperienced to realize, too stubborn to learn, or too stupid to care.

Wake up.

What is there to learn. The definition of talent? The hiring process of the game industry?

It's been argued to death and neither side are right because it's based on opinions. It has even been said that how one company hires is different from another. That's that.

No one in this thread provide any immense insight for me about getting hired in the industry. All of them seem to say the same thing, and that my education doesn't matter. It's funny because even BishopTL called me out. This is a great example because I know the studio BishopTL works at and they hired a grad from my school.

 

[Mr. E. Yis]

To Iaido Sword:

FACT 1. All of the Art Institutes suck balls. I should know, I graduated from one of them. They all work the same way as a sort of business to churn out graduates, and then they let the industry dismiss them (which should have been the school's job). I had many awesome smart cool teachers. I also had some instructors who didn't care about their job or their students. A lot of times, if they are an AI teacher, that means they suck in their field, and need a job. There are many websites on the net from AI grads proclaiming its ills, such as the Anti Art Institute group on yahoo, and the Art Institutes suck site.

FACT 2. There is a huge gap of missing experience in between graduation and actually landing an entry-level job. Since there are so many graduates who feel that they have an entitlement to a job (ahem), companies put up entry-level jobs with minimum 1 or 2 years experience. That's another way of saying - either get experience working at companies for free (intern) to get off your ego and see how a company REALLY works, or work hard and make an immaculate demo reel (made only by you) in one specialty (this is the harder choice).

FACT 3. No one gets jobs as game designers in their 1st year of work out of graduation. Or 5th year for that matter. Do not delude yourself.

FACT 4. Being a specialist is a good thing. Being a generalist is not. It shows you don't know any one job good (even if you think you do), and shows you are arrogant, which is a no-no for employment. I would bet money that the companies at your school do not hire generalists as a position. Only very small studios and companies hire generalists. And being a great or even good (in industry standards) generalist is super rare. Meaning, if you are not one already, you won't be by the time you graduate. Also, it's hilarious that you think a generalist can choose at any time to focus on and off on a speciality for a project. People who spend their lives learning a specialty and still don't know all there is to know, and you think you can learn in it in a few classes? You have a lot to learn, Anakin.

I graduated in animation and was hoping to go into the game industry after graduation, but things don't always go as planned. I thought I was pretty good, and better than my classmates in many areas, but I still found it hard to find a starting job. I started working for free in an internship, and now I've been working in the film/television industry for a few years. I've worked personally with Oscar and Emmy winners. I really enjoy it. But this industry has more wanna-be's than the game industry, and that makes it much harder for entry-level. The point being - it was harder than I thought to get an entry level job in the industry. And now with the bad economy, and especially with your ego, & attitude on learning, what I say to you is - good luck with those school loans.

 

[KTallguy]

So the industry takes a blind eye to each other's work? I don't think that's the case. Developers do want to learn from each other.

Blizzard has all the time in the world, so they don't cut things out. Kojima is pretty damn adamant about not cutting anything that is good in the game, so I'm willing to bet he hadn't either for MGS4. MGS4 is quite a complete gaming package.

You're delusional.
There are very few games that don't have a few features cut out.
In the very documentary you cite, they talk about how they had to balance and not include certain features because of schedule implications. A good director has to work with the producer to find out what's feasible given the time allowed.

And even Blizzard, who has "all the time in the world" lol), has schedules, dates, and targets they have to hit. When they set dates (internally and externally), the majority of the time compromises will have to be made on what can get out the door on time. Blizzard has the luxury of WoW, and a shit ton of cash, but when dates are set and marketing ramps up, you can bet that there's pressure to hit those milestones.

While I myself admire how hardworking KP is, I've also done a fair amount of crunch myself (not as much as most, I'm not a programmer or artist). In all cases crunch = quality down. When you're crunching, there are diminishing returns, because work becomes more error prone. Did you see how tired everyone at KP was in that documentary? Do you think that was a positive influence on the game?

Of course, MGS4 turned out great, but that's not because they had crunch.

Note: Education certainly matters, but arrogance will negate any booksmarts you may have. Be humble and clean your ears out, intern at a few places if you can, and learn fast. In this industry, people just want someone who can do the job, and do it well. Once you're a lead designer, then you have some right to get all uppity and pretentious.

 

[element]

Seattles great. Not going to argue that. Just that EA has a lot of influence and Rockstar, yeah you know what they're up to.

yeah, because Turn10, Monolith, Snowblind, Valve, Gas Powered Games, Bungie, ArenaNet, and just alright

It's either you have it in and chance that it is unpolished, or you take it out and already take the bad publicity. I do say chance because hard work and dedication can pull off amazing stuff.

Do you know anything about scope design and priorities?

rather than cutting an important element of the game, if it could be realistically achieve with a week of crunch time and overtime, then it is not a good decision just to cut it.

The thing is things NEVER take as long as you expect. Just because you can get it 'working' in a week doesn't mean it is shippable. Especially with something as complex as 4 player co-op when speaking about Too Human. Do you know how many issues could come up with such a feature. We are talking 1000's. The amount of development time, the amount of testing time. You are talking a HUGE amount of resources. In game development you typically get to a point where you have to make tough calls in what to scale back on and what to flat out cut so you can hit your deadlines, and typically that is taking overtime into consideration.

Also don't forget that students doing 24/7 shifts is FAR different then professionals doing that. Most would quit if their job asked them to do that for any extended period of time. Do you have any idea of the divorce rate in studios that have high crunch? The suicide rates? The burn out rates? It is not in the companies best interest to kill their employees.

Blizzard has all the time in the world, so they don't cut things out.

Yes they do, and to think otherwise is just silly.

So the industry takes a blind eye to each other's work? I don't think that's the case. Developers do want to learn from each other.

there is this really big thing that happens each year it is called GDC...

Umm those Blizzard games were completely shut down, so it doesn't relate to the same kind of cutting as I mention.

Yes it does. We are talking fully featured games. Imagine the work that goes into these products and Blizzard just turns around and kills them. I remember promo material for Warcraft Adventures. You think people at Blizzard don't cut things when they are more then willing to kill an entire product?

If an artist drew something he or she thinks is amazing for the game but took a completely wrong direction from what the game is suppose to be, the designer would be on it

No, that is the art lead or art directors job. Not the designers.

 

[KTallguy]

Yes it does. We are talking fully featured games. Imagine the work that goes into these products and Blizzard just turns around and kills them. I remember promo material for Warcraft Adventures. You think people at Blizzard don't cut things when they are more then willing to kill an entire product?

I remember that PC Gamer mag.

I really wanted to play that

Element: Ever get around to playing MGS4? :lol

 

[element]

and if that artists gets mighty pissed off and says the designer shouldn't criticize the work because the designer isn't qualified, then that artist would be fired on the legitimate grounds that the designer has enough knowledge about art.

OMG. You have topped yourself now... I really can't even begin to think that you actually believe that...

I feel sorry for you now.

This is a great example because I know the studio BishopTL works at and they hired a grad from my school.

His school probably had little to do with him being hired, and more about his personal talent, ability, and skill.

 

[Another_visitor]

To the OP, if he's still reading at this point, Splash Damage have just published an interview with their writer/designer on their site. He has some interesting advice for aspirant games writers:

The best advice for writers is to learn the medium by actually playing games, and realise they're not novels or screenplays by other means. Maybe get in touch with mod teams and offer to write up/edit/Wiki-ize their design documentation - that'll probably be more useful in terms of games writing and design than re-reading your signed Robert McKee book. Anything by William Goldman about writing movies actually is very useful for writing games, particularly how nothing is inevitable, everything's the result of individual decisions and deadlines and constraints invisible to the end user. Most of all, finish stuff! It almost doesn't matter what you start off, it's what you manage to fini...

http://www.splashdamage.com/node/69

 

[Teriyaki]

That would be under step 6, in which the different viable candidates are compared and contrasted based on their pros and cons. Convenience. Ah, to be judged on convenience - been a dream of mine since I was a little kid.

I split it out because it's not necessarily about comparing candidates. You'll often run into scenarios where the person who's "victorious" has multiple offers or that person simply wants to negotiate (sometimes HR handles this and not the hiring manager). There's just lots of possible outcomes which makes it hard to make a list like this.

What I want to know is, in exactly which of these 7 steps does one locate and hire the next Shigeru Miyamoto, Ron Gilbert, Will Wright, Sid Meier, John Carmack, or Peter Molyneaux? I'm just curious which stage one should concentrate on if one wants to hire exceptional game creators. For the life of me, I can't even figure out how this process works well enough to hire even "just barely good enough", much less resulting in a more creative, artistic, and virtuous game industry.

Hmm, that's an impossible question to address. Let me put it this way. It doesn't all happen overnight. Read the bios for the people you just listed. They didn't get to where they are today overnight nor did they all immediately meet success.

I can't really answer your question since the process is different for everyone, but remember that you not only have to develop your own talent, but be put in a position to succeed as well. You need to be a good fit for the company and the company needs to be a good fit for you. This is true for any profession.

 

[Dachande]

FACT 3. No one gets jobs as game designers in their 1st year of work out of graduation. Or 5th year for that matter. Do not delude yourself.

That's not always true. I got my first (and current) design job about four months after I graduated. (Shit degree, too.)

Admittedly, it was down to a lot of luck and being in the right place at the right time, but it can happen. But if I'd had the attitude of Iaido Sword I doubt I ever would've got hired for the QA position I started off in, let alone the design one.

 

[Iaido Sword]

To Iaido Sword:

Fact 1: You're an idiot if that's how you think. You owe the school all your basic training.
Fact 2: That's quite contrary with what a lot of people say. This so-called talent that companies want to scoop up don't need the experience. That same talent is just hard work, dedication, and a good network.
Fact 3: My instructor is an example of landing a designer job at entry.
Fact 4: Your opinion. I think generalists who can do various things are better.

And I'm not worried about my loans. I handle money well.

You're delusional.
There are very few games that don't have a few features cut out.
In the very documentary you cite, they talk about how they had to balance and not include certain features because of schedule implications. A good director has to work with the producer to find out what's feasible given the time allowed.

And even Blizzard, who has "all the time in the world" lol), has schedules, dates, and targets they have to hit. When they set dates (internally and externally), the majority of the time compromises will have to be made on what can get out the door on time. Blizzard has the luxury of WoW, and a shit ton of cash, but when dates are set and marketing ramps up, you can bet that there's pressure to hit those milestones.

While I myself admire how hardworking KP is, I've also done a fair amount of crunch myself (not as much as most, I'm not a programmer or artist). In all cases crunch = quality down. When you're crunching, there are diminishing returns, because work becomes more error prone. Did you see how tired everyone at KP was in that documentary? Do you think that was a positive influence on the game?

Of course, MGS4 turned out great, but that's not because they had crunch.

Note: Education certainly matters, but arrogance will negate any booksmarts you may have. Be humble and clean your ears out, intern at a few places if you can, and learn fast. In this industry, people just want someone who can do the job, and do it well. Once you're a lead designer, then you have some right to get all uppity and pretentious.

I remember that part correctly. The programmer lead wanted to cut, but Kojima ultimately shut him down. Kojima pushed the team. They were tired, but they were happy they got it done the way it should be. Could there be a cut? Sure, there could be something we don't know, but to say that every game has something cut is completely unrealistic as a game that was planned out very well can exist.

It's funny you speak of booksmart because, so far, none of my classes had me read a single book. Everything is practical training. I haven't even written down any notes yet.

 

[FirewalkR]

LOL at the thread title change. I don't think I recall this happening to a "how do I get a job in the industry" thread before. And now I'm gonna have to read the whole thing since I've missed quite a few pages since yesterday, when the fun stuff must have begun. :lol

 

[Iaido Sword]

OMG. You have topped yourself now... I really can't even begin to think that you actually believe that...

I feel sorry for you now.

If you're that artist who wants to do things your way instead of how it is meant to be for the game, then you're jeopardizing your career. If you can't take a bit of criticism, then no one is going to care about you.

The industry is small, you'll never get anywhere if you do anything like that.

 

[element]

I think generalists who can do various things are better.

yet time and time and time again you have WORKING INDUSTRY people on here telling you flat out that companies don't hire generalist. You have to be better at one thing, and you get hired to do that. Sure you might have opportunities to do other things. But if you get hired to be a rigger, you are going to rig, you aren't going to model characters. If you get hired to be a vehicle designer, you are going to work on vehicles. If you are a level designer you are going to make maps.
I don't know how much more clear you need it explained to ya.

If you're that artist who wants to do things your way instead of how it is meant to be for the game, then you're jeopardizing your career. If you can't take a bit of criticism, then no one is going to care about you.

Typically things never get to that point because you have an art director or art lead checking on work.
Typically what happens is a designer says something really basic, I want a cityscape, and it is the art directors job to work within that scope. If you think a game designer is telling the art director how to do his job and how to lead his artist you are insane.
Also the criticism is a two way street. A designer can have unrealistic expectations in what they want, and a good designer knows how to fight fights worth fighting. Compromise is key in being a good designer.

 

[Argyle]

Could there be a cut? Sure, there could be something we don't know, but to say that every game has something cut is completely unrealistic as a game that was planned out very well can exist.

:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

 

[Iaido Sword]

yet time and time and time again you have WORKING INDUSTRY people on here telling you flat out that companies don't hire generalist. You have to be better at one thing, and you get hired to do that. Sure you might have opportunities to do other things. But if you get hired to be a rigger, you are going to rig, you aren't going to model characters. If you get hired to be a vehicle designer, you are going to work on vehicles. If you are a level designer you are going to make maps.
I don't know how much more clear you need it explained to ya.

Typically things never get to that point because you have an art director or art lead checking on work.
Typically what happens is a designer says something really basic, I want a cityscape, and it is the art directors job to work within that scope. If you think a game designer is telling the art director how to do his job and how to lead his artist you are insane.

And my instructor's experience proves you wrong.

How much clearer can I be?

Leaders for certain divisions happen in bigger teams. It will take the same process. If there is something that doesn't work with an artwork from the art team, the designer has to pick that out and send the message to the art lead. Same process.

 

[Teriyaki]

OMG. You have topped yourself now... I really can't even begin to think that you actually believe that...

I feel sorry for you now.

I don't want to lobby for a tag for IS, but if he gets one, there are too many notable quotes to choose from or posts to link to. :/

 

[element]

And my instructor's experience proves you wrong.

what is your instructors job title?

 

[blazinglazers]

What is there to learn. The definition of talent? The hiring process of the game industry?

It's been argued to death and neither side are right because it's based on opinions. It has even been said that how one company hires is different from another. That's that.

No one in this thread provide any immense insight for me about getting hired in the industry. All of them seem to say the same thing, and that my education doesn't matter. It's funny because even BishopTL called me out. This is a great example because I know the studio BishopTL works at and they hired a grad from my school.

Your education does matter, and it's great that you're getting it. I think the general point to take away, regardless of what's been debated, is that you personally will be better positioned for success if you can open up to the advice of people who know what they're talking about. Just that idea. Just be open to an experienced perspective. All opinions aren't of equal weight. There are educated opinions, experienced opinions, and I think a lot of the game people here are just challenging your inexperienced notions of what the industry is like & what's in store for you. And I think they mean it to help you.

I got so wrapped up in this, I forgot how off topic my own experience is. I apologize, I have nothing to do with the games industry. But I can imagine that trying to become a professional game designer is a lot like trying to become a professional director. It's something that ultimately you're going to have to do on your own, in your free time. Almost no one's going to hire you cold out of school, you're going to have to make something first. Something amazing. And while you make what you want to make, you're going to need a job to pay the bills. And all those jobs that pay the bills in the field you want to be in? They're specialists jobs. So work hard and chase your dream, but know there are no guarantees, and check your perspective like the people who's ranks you want to join are suggesting.

 

[Iaido Sword]

what is your instructors job title?

Lead modeler.
Lead designer.

 

[noonche]

This thread is making my brain hurt. How can one person ignore so much actual experience?

 

[element]

Lead modeler.
Lead designer.

Since he is a lead he probably doesn't do much of either, as lead is a management position. Any idea of how many direct reports he has?
Does he work for EAC or BlackBox?

And my instructor's experience proves you wrong.
How much clearer can I be?

Look at Gamasutra job postings. Studios look for specific roles to fill positions. Not a jack of all trades.
2K Marin - Systems Designer
Artificial Mind & Movement - User Interface Designer
Electronic Arts - Technical Artist
Relic Entertainment - SENIOR ENVIRONMENT ARTIST
2K Games - Character TD/Rigger
2K Marin - Level Architect
BioWare - Cinematic Animators
BioWare - Senior Combat Designer
Carbine - Tech Animator
Carbine - Systems Designer

I don't know how much more clear it needs to be. Studios have very specific roles and needs for those roles. Studios typically want to find the right fit and are willing to wait until finding the right fit.

 

[Iaido Sword]

Your education does matter, and it's great that you're getting it. I think the general point to take away, regardless of what's been debated, is that you personally will be better positioned for success if you can open up to the advice of people who know what they're talking about. Just that idea. Just be open to an experienced perspective. All opinions aren't of equal weight. There are educated opinions, experienced opinions, and I think a lot of the game people here are just challenging your inexperienced notions of what the industry is like & what's in store for you. And I think they mean it to help you.

I got so wrapped up in this, I forgot how off topic my own experience is. I apologize, I have nothing to do with the games industry. But I can imagine that trying to become a professional game designer is a lot like trying to become a professional director. It's something that ultimately you're going to have to do on your own, in your free time. Almost no one's going to hire you cold out of school, you're going to have to make something first. Something amazing. And while you make what you want to make, you're going to need a job to pay the bills. And all those jobs that pay the bills in the field you want to be in? They're specialists jobs. So work hard and chase your dream, but know there are no guarantees, and check your perspective like the people who's ranks you want to join are suggesting.

My opinion is based on the experiences of my instructors who are also in the industry.

So you see, it turns out to be a developer vs developer battle. Sure, the people here have their advice. Great. If it weren't the exact opposite of what my instructors, who are in the industry, are teaching me, then I would listen closely.

Hard work vs Talent
School education vs Self education
Generalist vs Specialist

That's pretty much the battle in here.

 

[Another_visitor]

I remember that part correctly. The programmer lead wanted to cut, but Kojima ultimately shut him down. Kojima pushed the team. They were tired, but they were happy they got it done the way it should be.

What did you expect? An interview with some burnt out programmer talking about how his home life has suffered? Somebody dejectedly listing all the features that were cut? Documentaries like that aren't actually documentaries, they're marketing material. They present not the truth but what gamers want to hear. I.e. Nothing was cut, everybody worked hard, they're all really proud, everything was beautiful & nothing hurt. Take them with a pinch of salt.

 

[Iaido Sword]

Since he is a lead he probably doesn't do much of either, as lead is a management position.

That's his current position because he shown he was able to do a lot of everything.

Environment modeler for one game, character modeler for another game, and eventually, lead modeler for his most recent game.

If you think a designer has no right to critically assess the work of artists, then how would an environmental modeler be put in a lead position if they don't know how to rig or to model characters. The simple answer is that they do, and that's why they got the lead position.

 

[element]

Hard work vs Talent

no one is arguing hardwork vs talent. but there are people out there who are just naturally talented at these jobs and they excel and jobs find them quickly. everyone has to put in hardwork, even the naturally talented people.

School education vs Self education

Also you are a little off base on this as well. Majority of people, including myself aren't anti-education, but prefer a normal state school. Places like USC, UW, Carnegie Mellon, Savannah College of Art and Design, and others people have suggested in this thread.

Generalist vs Specialist

You are the only person in this entire thread saying generalist is better...

The simple answer is that they do, and that's why they got the lead position.

He got a lead design position because he showed interest, improvement, and probably has good design chops. Not because he knows 'how to do everything'. If he acts the way you make him sound, he is probably hated by his entire team.

If you want to get a good documentary about game development watch Discovery Channel Documentary: The X Factor -- InsideMicrosoft's Xbox from a couple years ago. It goes into the harsh restructure phase of Crimson Skies for Xbox and the ultimate canning of Oddworld Stranger.

 

[Iaido Sword]

no one is arguing hardwork vs talent. but there are people out there who are just naturally talented at these jobs and they excel and jobs find them quickly. everyone has to put in hardwork, even the naturally talented people.

Also you are a little off base on this as well. Majority of people, including myself aren't anti-education, but prefer a normal state school. Places like USC, UW, Carnegie Mellon, Savannah College of Art and Design, and others people have suggested in this thread.

You are the only person in this entire thread saying generalist is better...

You don't need hard work to be talented. Talent is super natural in the rare cases, but for the majority, talent is just hard work and dedication. Anyone can be anything they want to be with pure work and dedication.

You won't be making games at those schools, and if you do, it's a game school for whatever faculty it is. If you just get a comsci degree unrelated to games, you're going to go home and make the game there. That's self-training.

He got a lead design position because he showed interest, improvement, and probably has good design chops. Not because he knows 'how to do everything'. If he acts the way you make him sound, he is probably hated by his entire team.

If you want to get a good documentary about game development watch Discovery Channel Documentary: The X Factor -- InsideMicrosoft's Xbox from a couple years ago. It goes into the harsh restructure phase of Crimson Skies for Xbox and the ultimate canning of Oddworld Stranger.

Wow, so you know my instructor and his life. So since when was being good at everything make someone automatically a dick.

Sure, I'll take a look at that, but from your description, it sounds like I'll be learning about bad game development instead.

 

[permutated]

You need formal training, experience isn't enough: most of these developers are just companies that happen to make games they don't care about background, just skill and company experience.

Very sad IMO.

 

[element]

Anyone can be anything they want to be with pure work and dedication.

I will never understand quantum physics, not matter how many books I read, no matter how many classes I take. I might be able to regurgitate some information out of a book, but there are brilliant people who just think about it as if it was ABC123.

 

[Dachande]

Sure, I'll take a look at that, but from your description, it sounds like I'll be learning about bad game development instead.

You'll be learning about real game development. Take notes.

 

[element]

Sure, I'll take a look at that, but from your description, it sounds like I'll be learning about bad game development instead.

most popular sessions and sessions with the most impact at GDC are the sessions where developers share their bad experience and share what they did wrong.

 

[Knox]

Sure, I'll take a look at that, but from your description, it sounds like I'll be learning about bad game development instead.

What could you possibly learn from watching things go wrong, right?

This thread has been pretty informative for us looking to get into the industry, even if it got there in a round about way. Keep it up everyone! :lol

 

[Iaido Sword]

I will never understand quantum physics, not matter how many books I read, no matter how many classes I take. I might be able to regurgitate some information out of a book, but there are brilliant people who just think about it as if it was ABC123.

See, you gave up. No dedication to begin with. If you wanted to understand quantum physics, you can if you have the drive.

Steven Hawkings is the talent of physics, but how many of those people appear in an age.

To tell someone that they don't have the talent of Steven Hawkings and will never break any physics formula is counter productive for the world. Always encourage.

And let's just end the generalist vs specialist discussion. Don't think of cost, don't think of anything else.

If one person only does character models and is unable to do anything else related the modeling while another person can make character models, vehicle models, building models, rigging, environments, who would you hire if you were the employer.

Remember, cost doesn't count. Who is more attractive.

 

[EviLore]

We'll consider letting Iaido Sword back in when he's creative director on a major project, and not a soon to be Assistant QA Tester Third Class lecturing seasoned professionals using second hand information (no offense to QA testers, hang in there guys). Apologies to the humble and patient industry folks who put up with the insanity in this thread, but there's a lot of wisdom to be gleaned from your posts that made this thread worthwhile to keep alive for as long as it has been.