Support NeoGAF

[BreezyLimbo]

I dunno how trustworthy Gamepur is, but apparently Pessino thinks that an accurate score for the Order is 8/10?

http://www.gamepur.com/news/18087-d...-score-ps4-exclusive-order-1886-810-more.html

 

[dugdug]

Real talk, how long before these companies actually stop sending out review code? As seen by the UK sales for this game, reviews clearly have little impact these days. Sites that do reviews are dropping like flies, as well.

Eventually, pubs won't need these sites at all. It's a scary future, but, one I don't see too far off.

 

[RoboPlato]

Oh deary me, one of the Sony Santa Monica devs certainly got a bit upset

Holy crap at the comments about review copies and ads. Yikes.

 

[Ricky Ricardo]

And I totally agree with him.

Well, no surprise there, huh? lol

 

[Jtrizzy]

I'd give it a 7 personally. My only wish is that it was 60 fps.

 

[ReplacementPelican]

Was this posted?

I Got 1886 Problems But Graphics Ain’t One: Game designer's perspective on The Order 1886, by Adrian Chmielarz:

Read the whole thing, it's great.

Interesting but I'm getting a bit tired of people talking about the game like there's no actual gameplay, it's getting a bit weird now.

 

[Gestault]

Was this posted?

I Got 1886 Problems But Graphics Ain’t One: Game designer's perspective on The Order 1886, by Adrian Chmielarz:
[excerpts]
Read the whole thing, it's great.

This is a pretty interesting take on the whole presentation. I second that nod for being a worthwhile read.

It’s not the question of length, which personally I found satisfying (the game lasted exactly one full charge of a brand new Dualshock 4). It’s a question of player agency.

I remember playing Final Fantasy VII in 1997 and noticing how you have to just move a little and press a button to execute a simple action every now and then to move the story forward. I was quite impressed as a designer, I knew they did it to keep the player engaged, to give them an illusion of importance. But what kind of worked nearly twenty years ago does not necessarily work today. For the last third of the century we’ve tasted a lot of games that offer you some sort of illusion of freedom: be it choice (Telltale games) or planning (Far Cry 4). It’s hard to go back to Resume.

Nope, that’s not the end of the gameplay troubles. My biggest problem was how inconsistent and messy it all is. Sometimes the game blocks your ability to run. Sometimes it blocks your ability to walk. Sometimes you can use a weapon when no one is around, sometimes you cannot. Sometimes you have a clear goal, sometimes pressing R3 displays nothing.

In the movie about the infamous “best bad director” Ed Wood there is a beautiful exchange that happens when Wood resumes filming a certain scene. “But sir, we filmed the first part during the day, and now it’s already the night.” — protested a film crew member. “Who cares? Action!” — replied Wood.

That describes the design of The Order: 1886 pretty well.

Based on all of the above you’d think I hated the game. I didn’t.

 

[Heigic]

We send you a free copy of the game and BUY ads from you and in exchange all we ask is a good score?

 

[twobear]

You completely missed the point. The point is, if you have a online game that won't allow you to play online, then it warrents a low review score. For the games I mentioned, this largely wan't the case. If you have a game so defective, folks fall through the floor, and have players without faces, then it warrents a low review score. For the games I mentioned this wasn't the case. The Order had none of those issues, but to receive review scores lower than proven broken games, just because "I duh..don't be liken cut scenes, and quick time events" doesn't justify it being beneath broken games. That's the point I'm making. You can either agree, or you don't. I'm done talking about this.

So you think that functional but bad games should automatically get good review scores? This seems rather bizarre.

 

[c0de]

Real talk, how long before these companies actually stop sending out review code? As seen by the UK sales for this game, reviews clearly have little impact these days. Sites that do reviews are dropping like flies, as well.

Eventually, pubs won't need these sites at all. It's a scary future, but, one I don't see too far off.

I am actually scared of a future where the most vocal (and perhaps biggest) userbase is able to hype people to buy a game which is only hyped because it's an exclusive and subjectivity is dominating people's minds, of course disguised as objective.

 

[phanphare]

The point is, if you have a online game that won't allow you to play online, then it warrents a low review score.

what if there is more to the game then just the online component? for instance one of the games you're using to try and point out some kind of hypocrisy had a wealth of other content that factored into the review.

also I think the MCC situation has been well handled. most within the game's media admitted that when they had the game the online issues weren't an issue and that for games with a heavy online component reviews should be held until that component has been tested at release. now you see a lot more reviews in progress, like with Smash Bros. sites holding out reviews for that game was 100% in response to not holding reviews for MCC and Drive Club. so I think that lesson was learned.

the issue isn't with some underlying hypocrisy with reviews or that another game scored better.

 

[Dunlop]

SSM is The Order's publisher. Not surprised that he is pissed. That said, I personally dont think it deserves to be in yellow on Metacritic but I understand reviewer's gripes about it.

It's an easy 7-8/10

What he wrote was incredibly unprofessional, is amounts to holding funding unless games are reviewed high.

The tweet will be removed but the message has been received, extra scrutiny will be needed to trust any reviews for their games now

 

[Always-honest]

The reason it scored so low is because there's barely a game in there. IT's a QTE fest with HOURS of cutscenes full of a mediocre storythat doesn't go anywhere, occasionally interspersed with walking, and the occasional whack-a-mole shooting gallery style combat.

.

no, there is far more shoot shoot bang bang gameplay than there is QTE. In fact, the actual QTE-s just take up a tiny part of the game.

Edit: That Santa Monica Tweet is embarrassing. Suck it up and produce / publish the best sequel you can, together with these amazing talented artists at Ready At Dawn.

 

[Neuromancer]

It feels like I have played much more than the reviews indicated... Maybe walking / inspecting wasn't considered gameplay??

I estimate my game time around 8 or 9 hours, easily. I spent an inordinate amount of time marveling at the world around me.

 

[Dragonborn]

Oh deary me, one of the Sony Santa Monica devs certainly got a bit upset

I honestly agree. the game press as is a a complete joke, filled with man children. It'd be great to see them cut off.

 

[Neuromancer]

What he wrote was incredibly unprofessional, is amounts to holding funding unless games are reviewed high.

The tweet will be removed but the message has been received, extra scrutiny will be needed to trust any reviews for their games now

I agree it was a dumb thing to say, but come on. Do you really think a Senior Combat Designer has any control over that?

 

[Rand6]

We send you a free copy of the game and BUY ads from you and in exchange all we ask is a good score?

More like "we send you a free copy of the game and BUY ads from you and in exchange all we ask is a fair review".

Some review were unnecessary harsh with the game. He even acknowledge that the game is not perfect. He's not saying the game deserve 9 or 10. He's just saying that it's not a 6/10 game.

 

[Always-honest]

Interesting but I'm getting a bit tired of people talking about the game like there's no actual gameplay, it's getting a bit weird now.

Absolutely. Ridiculous.

And "overcooking shaders"? best shaders i have ever seen. (i just started reading).
And to the people who hate QTE-s: do you suck at them? Caus ethey are a completely valid gamemechanic imo. People here act like a QTE is an instant sign of lazyness.

Anyway, there certainly sre things in that article that i agree with. Not everything though.

 

[EGM1966]

Was this posted?

I Got 1886 Problems But Graphics Ain’t One: Game designer's perspective on The Order 1886, by Adrian Chmielarz:

Read the whole thing, it's great.

Yes that's a pretty good dissection at lest from my perspective. This paragraph is worth noting too:

" It’s very hard to change someone’s mind once it’s set. After really cool segments had started to appear in the game, my confirmation bias kept whispering to me I should ignore them. Luckily for my sixty dollars, the consistency with which these exciting sections kept popping up made me change my attitude towards the game. I went from “it’s a beautiful disaster” to “deeply flawed, but I’m kind of ready to buy the sequel even tomorrow.” "

And I think that's the key for me. The start is bad, it probably soured many but in fact the game steadily improves throughout and for much of it you really are playing an engaging game that leaves you wanting more if they simply sort out the niggling issues.

So much of the foundation (or ingredients as he puts it) are rock solid, but the final composition is flawed if still entertaining enough overall. I really hope RaD take on-board the terrific amount of constructive criticism going around and push ahead because with the engine in place I suspect much of what occupied them previously is now complete. A sequel can focus extensively on content creation and gameplay design now.

 

[Gestault]

I honestly agree. the game press as is a a complete joke, filled with man children. It'd be great to see them cut off.

You think review copies should be predicated on whether the publisher/developer agrees with the resulting editorial?

 

[Neuromancer]

My only beef with the QTEs were the one or two times where you had to do a series in a row, and if you failed one you had to start at the beginning. Otherwise I thought they were fine.

 

[phanphare]

I honestly agree. the game press as is a a complete joke, filled with man children. It'd be great to see them cut off.

joke post?

 

[vpance]

I dunno how trustworthy Gamepur is, but apparently Pessino thinks that an accurate score for the Order is 8/10?

http://www.gamepur.com/news/18087-d...-score-ps4-exclusive-order-1886-810-more.html

It can be hard to look at your own work objectively sometimes. That said, in today's climate of AAA games anything that's not open world and/or has a ton of gameplay time has its work cut out for it. RAD still chose to dive in head first though.

 

[Dragonborn]

You think review copies should be predicated on whether the publisher/developer agrees with the resulting editorial?

I think review copies and ads in general should be completely separate from games reviewers. There's too much inbreeding going on in the games media

 

[funkypie]

some good news. I sold my copy for £35 making a £10 profit.

 

[Gestault]

I think review copies and ads in general should be completely separate from games reviewers. There's too much inbreeding going on in the games media

Ah, and a Gamergate nut to boot When you make an accusation as broad and vacuous as the mission statement of Gamergate, there may be a problem in your reasoning. If you look back, the tweet you agree with stated the opposite of what you are here.

 

[ProfessorMoran]

Woo i really don't get the hate against this game. I still haven't finished it yet, at chapter 12 or something right now. But i am really enjoying every moment of it. As someone who had played all Uncharted games (still 1st one is my fav), i liked The Order more. Probably because of the setting, and length.. Yeah i always thought Uncharted games should have been shorter. Those shooting segments sometimes drag on forever.

The Order has a slow pace yeah, but it really suits that moody Victorian London setting a lot.

So you LIKE watching a cutscene everytime you push open a door or try to melee an enemy (stealth or stunned) or going down a fucking ladder? You mean you LIKE being forced to walk through a level at a snail's pace? And you LIKE linear corridor levels where enemy AIs can't do much because they don't have places to go, help me fucking understand. The game has a lot of flaws even though it has amazing tech, and RAD has a lot of work to do. Whoever thought breaking up gameplay every minute with a minute of cutscene, he or she might not be the best suited for game design.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Oh deary me, one of the Sony Santa Monica devs certainly got a bit upset

I like that the implication here is that they only sent out review copies or bought ads with the expectation of favorable coverage.

 

[PanicFreak]

I honestly agree. the game press as is a a complete joke, filled with man children. It'd be great to see them cut off.

You prefer to get all of your news and reviews from the publishers?

"Buy our game, we give it a 10/10!"

Or on an advertisement the following words flash across your screen:

"10/10
-Activision"

"Madden 2016 is a revolution in gameplay
-Electronic Arts"

"Our IT department really loves it!
-343i"

 

[Dunlop]

I agree it was a dumb thing to say, but come on. Do you really think a Senior Combat Designer has any control over that?

Of course not, but he put it out there and regardless of his role he represents the company.

It could have an impact on the smaller cash starved review sites, or not. The doubt will be out there now because of this stupid tweet

 

[Spades]

I like that the implication here is that they only sent out review copies or bought ads with the expectation of favorable coverage.

Exactly. He comes across like an arrogant douche TBH.

 

[Toxi]

More like "we send you a free copy of the game and BUY ads from you and in exchange all we ask is a fair review".

Some review were unnecessary harsh with the game. He even acknowledge that the game is not perfect. He's not saying the game deserve 9 or 10. He's just saying that it's not a 6/10 game.

You're seriously saying a "fair" review needs to hit some arbitrary score range?

No. That's the opposite of asking for a fair review.

I think review copies and ads in general should be completely separate from games reviewers. There's too much inbreeding going on in the games media

Could you explain how review copies and ads are negatively affecting the output of game reviewers? With recent examples please.

 

[Dunlop]

Could you explain how review copies and ads are negatively affecting the output of game reviewers? With recent examples please.

How far back can we go? I'm about to hit 40 so 8 years ago is like yesterday to me

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Gerstmann

Gerstmann was dismissed from his position at GameSpot as Editorial Director on November 28, 2007.[5] Immediately after his termination, rumors circulated proclaiming his dismissal was a result of external pressure from Eidos Interactive the publisher of Kane & Lynch: Dead Men which Gerstmann had previously given a Fair rating, which is relatively undesirable, along with critique.[6] This was at a time when Eidos had been putting heavy advertising money into GameSpot,[6] going as far as transforming the entire website to use a Kane & Lynch theme and background instead of the regular GameSpot layout, regardless of which game or page viewers were seeing. In accordance with California State Law and CNET Networks, GameSpot could not give details as to why Gerstmann was terminated.[7] Both GameSpot and parent company CNET stated that his dismissal was unrelated to the negative review.[8] However, a subsequent interview with Gerstmann in 2012 countered this statement, with Gerstmann claiming that management gave in to publisher pressure.[9] Following Gerstmann's termination, editors Alex Navarro, Ryan Davis, Brad Shoemaker, and Vinny Caravella left GameSpot, feeling that they could no longer work for a publication that was perceived as having caved in to advertiser pressure.[6]

 

[viveks86]

I think review copies and ads in general should be completely separate from games reviewers. There's too much inbreeding going on in the games media

This is getting a bit out of hand. Such accusations without evidence is meaningless. All this just because the scores are not to your liking?

 

[Eccocid]

So you LIKE watching a cutscene everytime you push open a door or try to melee an enemy (stealth or stunned) or going down a fucking ladder? You mean you LIKE being forced to walk through a level at a snail's pace? And you LIKE linear corridor levels where enemy AIs can't do much because they don't have places to go, help me fucking understand. The game has a lot of flaws even though it has amazing tech, and RAD has a lot of work to do. Whoever thought breaking up gameplay every minute with a minute of cutscene, he or she might not be the best suited for game design.

I am not a fetish for all those problems what i say is i enjoyed the game while i was playing. I think i accepted The Order as some high budget tv show. I didn't play in one sitting. Like 1 or 2 hours on each session and i always felt like an episodic show.

And i think this engine and art direction should have been used for a survival horror game.

 

[OnADock]

Could you explain how review copies and ads are negatively affecting the output of game reviewers? With recent examples please.

Here's an implication that they should be, by the publishers themselves.

 

[GECK]

Lol. On a side note, there are a total of roughly 11 minutes worth of QTE's in the whole game, depending on how many you fail or whatever. So it really is not a QTE fest at all.

11 minutes of QTE is 11 minutes too much.

And judging by the level of intellect displayed from that developer's tweet, it's no surprise that they probably thought their shit smelled like roses.

 

[Abinash117]

He has a very valid point! We seen several games last year THAT WERE BROKEN recieve 8's and 9s. But we have a fully functional, fully polished, top notch voice action, interesting story, and fun gameplay mechanics get a 4s out of 10 is asinine as it is ridiculous! I just finished The Order 1886, and it's clearly a 8 out of 10 game. (Me, I would score it a definite 9.)

Even if you are kidding thats pretty funny.

Can't see how anyone think that tweet okay, there's no jusification no matter what mental gymnastics anyone does. He basically said " if you don't give us good reviews you don't get money or review copies." Completely stupid for anyone to agree with that.

 

[Toxi]

How far back can we go? I'm about to hit 40 so 8 years ago is like yesterday to me

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Gerstmann

I was deliberately saying recent because the Gerstmann Gamespot fiasco is not an indicator of the current press. Gerstmann himself has written about this.

There's an implication that they should be, by the publishers themselves.

You're using an example of the press not being negatively affected to suggest the press is negatively affected. Whatever the pubs thought, it clearly didn't work.

 

[dan2026]

So a crap game gets a crap review score.

But because its a console exclusive we have people blaming everything under the sun that isn't the game.

Every single time this happens. Every single time.

 

[phanphare]

There's an implication that they should be, by the publishers themselves.

actually that tweet implies that this is not happening. it seemed like more of a threat based on how The Order was received.

 

[Oersted]

I like that the implication here is that they only sent out review copies or bought ads with the expectation of favorable coverage.

Write what we want or we cut you off.

 

[ProfessorMoran]

I am not a fetish for all those problems what i say is i enjoyed the game while i was playing. I think i accepted The Order as some high budget tv show. I didn't play in one sitting. Like 1 or 2 hours on each session and i always felt like an episodic show.

And i think this engine and art direction should have been used for a survival horror game.

I bought the game and I do think the reviews are harsh but when you make shitty game design decisions, you can't really blame anyone when you're charging $60 for your game and you're breaking up gameplay every chance you get.

 

[temesgen77]

I'd probably give the game 8/10 or 4 out of 5 for those who prefer 5 point scales; lots of good just some pacing issues. The story in particular is very good, a lot of care went into this. The original Uncharted got mixed reviews too and ND went on to do great things with that IP, hopefully we'll see a similar progression with The Order.

 

[ProfessorMoran]

I'd probably give the game 8/10 or 4 out of 5 for those who prefer 5 point scales; lots of good just some pacing issues. The story in particular is very good, a lot of care went into this. The original Uncharted got mixed reviews too and ND went on to do great things with that IP, hopefully we'll see a similar progression with The Order.

The original uncharted rated close to 90%, that's not mixed.

 

[OnADock]

You're using an example of the press not being negatively affected to suggest the press is negatively affected.

It's good that reviews were not effected, but there are clearly publishers who think that they should be getting better reviews if they buy ad space and send out review copies. Rymer is only the most recent example. People aren't making baseless assumptions here, there's clearly an idea among publishers that positive reviews can be bought and to simply ignore that idea that isn't a wise choice.

 

[EL CUCO]

Here's an implication that they should be, by the publishers themselves.

It's obviously hyperbole...
Like someone else here noted, Dean is a Senior Combat designer.

 

[Insane Metal]

Played at a friend's place yesterday and was surprised by how good the gunplay is. Very solid, weapons and hit detection is really well done. Other than that, there's not much to the game. Visuals are really good, but I still think Ryse is a step ahead, but we can't blame RAD for that... I mean... it's Cry Engine.

 

[phanphare]

It's obviously hyperbole...
Like someone else here noted, Dean is a Senior Combat designer.

hyperbole or not it's extremely troubling

 

[MrxDemix]

It's obviously hyperbole...
Like someone else here noted, Dean is a Senior Combat designer.

More like he was venting his frustration on the wrong channel.

I can't imagine how painful it is to release a product after putting so much work into it, only to have it hated on by many. But I suppose that's just the nature of the entertainment industry.