RustyNails
Member
If you're busy and can read only one book, I recommend Freedom at Midnight
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The Partition of India 70 Years on
- Thread starter NyMartin90
- Start date
RustyNails
Member
Fuck the British Crown specifically and all the fuckers who took part in imperialism. No empire in history has probably caused so much systemized loss, grief and destruction over its history.
Edit: and its high time the cunts in Buckingham Palace returned the Koh-i-Noor.
Yessir. I actually lived in Amritsar recently for a few years lol. It's a bit sad reading about Punjab, it's history, and seeing what it's become though. The British Empire, Badal Government and the India Government in general didn't really do them any favors.
The Futurist
Member
A friend of mine (Pakistani) told me that at the time of partition his father and uncles had to literally grab their belongings in their hands and run from their home in Hyderabad India.
They literally ran for their lives because Hindus were killing muslims as they tried to escape.
How's the Indian Punjab doing now? I've heard of the farmer suicides but dunno to the extent how widespread it is there.
The Gujarat riots. I know some people will bring out the ruling of the SC but that's a joke, much like how that murderer Salman Khan was acquitted. The justice system is a fucking joke.
Modi was banned from US for a reason. In fact, he's the only person who's been banned from US under the International Religious Freedom Act. What an accomplishment.
He's done nothing but fan the flames on religion on a national level since he became PM. The cow controversy and the deaths (of children) following that are prime examples. There are more incidents on micro level. The thing is that the only moderate leader the BJP had was Vajpayee and in hindsight he was probably the best BJP leader.
Congress is a limp useless tripe of a party but at least they didn't stoop to the tactics of Modi.
For people who don't follow, Modi is the Indian equivalent of Trump. No wonder Modi bhakts are also staunch supporters of Trump.
Should read up on the Bangladesh Liberation War. Almost led to WW3 with US and Soviet Union trying to get involved.
lucebuce12
Member
Yeah, the entire East Pakistan/West Pakistan situation was fucked up and a lot of Bangladeshis still harbour a bit of a grudge towards us Pakistanis for what happened (honestly, I can't even blame them considering the shit a lot of people there had to put up).
crimzonflame
Member
I have a lot of Punjabi friends and they tell me theres a huge drug problem there now.
I left about one year back, but in my personal experience its so-so.
If you look at the farmers, suicides haven't stopped. There's many reasons to this, which you might know. If you search "Punjab Suicides" in on Google, you can see articles from this year and the past few years talking about it, so it's still a problem sadly.
Another problem I've personally seen is the drug situation. Its terrible, especially among farmers. This has been a problem in Punjab for at least the past 15 years (from what I've heard from my family), but I fear every year it grows into a bigger and bigger deal.
BBC did an article on the drug problem: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-38824478
Here's another one, 70% of Amritsar's male youth is addicted: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-south-asia-11925617
Another thing I noticed is the corruption. Funds would get placed for new streets, university expansions, etc. and half the money would just be pocketed. Sometimes, to get city officials to do paperwork you would need to pay them.
As for the growth of the cities, it seemed like they were making good pace. Amritsar really grew in the past 5-6 years. On one hand that's great news, it means better facilities, restaurants, tourist attractions, etc., but it also means A LOT more traffic. Traffic increased year by year. I saw cell service improve (when I came there was only 2G, now they had 4G service), internet speeds jump up (some area's even had fiber), new malls built, etc.
I didn't have a chance to visit other cities that much, but from what I saw cities like Chandigarh and Jalandhar were making solid growth as well. Chandigarh especially, beautiful city.
The Golden Temple area has been recently renovated, it's gorgeous now.
The Badal Government is out now, so hopefully the new administration can work towards improving Punjab. It's a shame hearing about it's amazing past, that once had almost 100% literacy rates in women, a thriving economy, etc. and seeing it now.
It's bad. India Government needs to address. Hopefully they have a plan in place.
TimeEffect
Member
Fantastic stuff OP, I greatly appreciate the book and documentary references
Yeah I saw an Indian movie about drug usage called Utda Punjab. Definitely worth a watch.
It was sad. Bangladesh should have always been its own country IMO.
HyperZone<3
Member
I have learned much from this thread, most of it tragic.
I just wanted to thank all the people here who are sharing highly personal stories. There are some things I now understand a little better.
I just wanted to thank all the people here who are sharing highly personal stories. There are some things I now understand a little better.
AstroNut325
Member
I'm ashamed to admit that I know almost nothing about this despite being a native born Indian. The stories in this thread are horrifying and tragic.
I need to make time to read up on this.
Edit:
My whole family hates Pakistan. I was not indoctrinated though. I need to understand this more.
I need to make time to read up on this.
Edit:
My whole family hates Pakistan. I was not indoctrinated though. I need to understand this more.
For a book about the US involvement in the events that led to the creation of Bangladesh in 1971, I suggest you read this one:
The Blood Telegram: Nixon, Kissinger, and a Forgotten Genocide
Tribe like mentality, be careful not to fall into it, quite easy to be indoctrinated with something so raw, before you know it you'll rationalise hating vast amount of strangers. Its the same with Pakistani households. I am of Pakistani heritage (my Grandad) it's always nice to look in as an outsider to challenge mindless and hypocritical claims on both sides.
My beautiful wife is from India and she's facinated by Pakistani culture, there's a strange allure to it she says. To me, it's all the same, same food, clothing, cross distribution of movies with similar language. Real shame about partition and the lives lost, personally I feel India should've remained whole.
lucebuce12
Member
Pakistani music is quite good! I used to watch Coke Studio quite a bit.
tearsintherain
Member
Pretty fascinating history, never knew Bangladesh started off as East Pakistan. Lord Mountbatten also led a fascinating life, or I guess more accurately he interacted with so many famous people - Stalin, Gandhi, Churchill, on and on. India still had a lot of kingdoms when he was the last viceroy so he would have interacted with a lot of Maharaja's as well, which is just like something out of a fairy tale. Assassinated by the IRA too, crazy.
as a Bangladeshi, fuck you motherfucker.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
Cyprus is all Turkey's fault.
Palestine wasn't ever going to work, partition or not. It's not working now with Israel controlling the whole territory either.
Most Protestants in what became the republic of Ireland left or otherwise declined for a variety of reasons, but they were a majority or very large minority in 6 counties in the North where they were a minority elsewhere.
There's stuff like this and other signs that Ireland was becoming a deeply conservative Catholic country, and one that even outlawed divorce until 1998. That may have changed now, but it was the 20th century.
IndoAssassin
Banned
It really is tragic. If you go to my parents hometown, half is run by Muslims and other half is Sikhs. The Muslims have really cleaned and built up their side looks beautiful due to one man taking charge and funding it's restoration. But the other side of the wall it's filled with drug addicts and looks worse than the last time I went there.
East Pakistan became Bangladesh in 1971. My dad fought in that war. Pakistani soldiers were given specific instructions to systematically rape Bengali women such that they become pregnant, as "A true muslim wouldn't go to war with this father". The horrific/systemic use of rape as a tool of war has possibly never have been equaled anywhere else.
DedalusJoyce
Member
Will read recommended books. Subbed. I'm in Karachi know a lot of Goans and Punjabi Christians. Love the Christian community in Karachi.
Geez that's terrible :/. I did a quick google search, leading to this Wikipedia entry:
In what has been described by Jenneke Arens as a deliberate attempt to destroy an ethnic group, many of those assaulted were raped, murdered and then bayoneted in the genitalia.[49] Adam Jones, a political scientist, has said that one of the reasons for the mass rapes was to undermine Bengali society through the "dishonoring" of Bengali women and that some women were raped until they died or were killed following repeated attacks.[50] The Pakistani army also raped Bengali males. The men, when passing through a checkpoint, would be ordered to prove they were circumcised, and this is where the rapes usually happened.[51] The International Commission of Jurists concluded that the atrocities carried out by the Pakistan armed forces "were part of a deliberate policy by a disciplined force".[52] The writer Mulk Raj Anand said of the Pakistani army actions, "The rapes were so systematic and pervasive that they had to be conscious Army policy, "planned by the West Pakistanis in a deliberate effort to create a new race" or to dilute Bengali nationalism".[53] Amita Malik, reporting from Bangladesh following the Pakistan armed forces surrender, wrote that one West Pakistani soldier said: "We are going. But we are leaving our Seed behind".[54]
lucebuce12
Member
Aah it's reading things like this that make me proud of my country and my armed forces.
God I hate this fucking place and it's people so motherfucking much.
Didn't take long for the usual pro-loyalist propaganda to arrive. It's a well known fact that Protestants in Ireland enjoyed the same level of freedoms and opportunities as anyone else in the Republic. Southern Unionists have, since partition, dominated most much of the professional services sector (banking, law, judiciary, politics, education, medical) in the Republic right up until today. Contrast that with the situation in the North where under British misrule, and a hostile colonialist settler community, native Irish were excluded from nearly all aspects of governance and professional life.
Irish partition, like Indian partition, was a complete disaster and makes you wonder why the hell Britain thought it'd be a good idea to replicate the same thing again.
I'm not going to further debate the topic of British (mis)rule in Ireland on a thread regarding Indian partition. But the parallels of both experiences in India and Ireland are there: namely British imposed "solutions" towards its possessions were utterly disasterous and left a long legacy of hatred and suffering in their wake.
It was pretty fucked. The last I heard about it, Pervez Musharraf did express regret for the atrocities of the war, but never taking responsibility or giving an explicit formal apology. Of the politicians today, only Imran Khan seems interested in given an actual formal apology.
These days, there are Pakistanis (including my parents unfortunately) who buy into the pro-Pakistani bullshit regarding the war, how India started it all and we were the victim etc. etc.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
Objectively false. First of all, probably not a lot of Southern Unionists after partition. Secondly, the number of Protestants in the republic is pretty small and declined massively for many decades. Thirdly, not all Protestants were unionists, nor were all Catholics nationalist. So no, they're a small group now that doesn't have much influence anymore.
But you're right about one thing, this is not the place.
AFAIK technically India "has" it, but militia groups keep getting into skirmishes with the Indian forces.
Edit: Read up some more. Seems like portions of it are held by Pakistan, and there was some worry on the Chinese side that India would form an excursion into Kashmir (including an area Pakistan had ceded to China but India still claimed), and unlike the previous war India would not be caught off guard. Perhaps India did not wish to chance a conflict with China?
higgsboson1997
Member
The Brits killed millions of Indian civilians (ostensibly their allies/subjects) shortly before the Partition, and Winston Churchill mocked their deaths publicly, saying things like "The Indians are a filthy people with a beastly religion" and "if there are so many dead, how is Gandhi still alive?" (slight paraphrases as I'm quoting from memory). Yet Churchill is celebrated as a hero. International legal protections don't apply if you're brown, particularly if the perpetrators are the major global powers or their allies (the US very strongly backed those war crimes in Bangladesh).
I'm mostly unaware of the current state of India, and even I know that's not true.
higgsboson1997
Member
Who told you that? Have you talked to the people who actually live in India or are from there?
Almost everyone I've talked to believes he's doing a good job. The only place where I've seen detractors are in Western media and some parts of the internet.
I do know China vetoed Bangladesh's entry in the UN unless India released it's PoW. So maybe that had something to do with it.
Yes? My parents (and grandparents) who are all ex-pats hate him, and the members of my family who returned to India after living here a while aren't entirely pleased with him, either.
And can we not do the whole "everybody I know thinks XXXX" thing? I feel like I've had to point out how worthless anecdotes are to way too many people, both IRL and online.
higgsboson1997
Member
It's not only my opinion though.
Modi's popularity is far greater than Manmohan Singh or Vajpayee.
While I wouldn't go as far as calling him the "best ever" or "top 3", DNA's survey indicated 69% of the country thinks so (along with P V Narasimha Rao and Rajiv Gandhi).
http://www.dnaindia.com/india/repor...r-prime-minister-businessworld-survey-2455873
That survey only had a sample size of 326, though. That's statistically worthless, especially in a nation of over a billion people. And besides, if you sampled the US right after 9-11 (when Bush had approval ratings close to 90%), you'd probably get roughly the same percentage of people saying that Bush is the best president the US has ever had.
Earthbound64
Banned
This was the beginning of the end for the British Empire.
In the 50ish years after this, things just fell apart.
In the 50ish years after this, things just fell apart.
Yeah, from India in 1947 to 1997, when Hong Kong was given up.
Threat of a Chinese response most likely.
There's still Gib and the Falklands/Malvinas left.