Earthbound64
Banned
That's exactly the time period that I had in mind.
It's such a dramatic list of countries.
Well, when you put it like that...
;-;
-
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The Partition of India 70 Years on
- Thread starter NyMartin90
- Start date
That's exactly the time period that I had in mind.
It's such a dramatic list of countries.
Well, when you put it like that...
;-;
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
You may want to read up on serbian war crimes, they are pretty horrific.
IndoAssassin
Banned
General Dyer was regarded as a hero for the Jallianwala Bagh massacre.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jallianwala_Bagh_massacre
ginger ninja
Banned
My grandfather and his sister were the only two people who survived the slaughter of his family. If you think about it, the British are responsible for the longest running conflicts of human history. Both Indo-pak and Israel and Palestine. The millions dead has caused such a bad blood that refuses to go away. If the British had any shame, they would at least issue a formal apology.
I always thing may be their immigration and multiculturalism problems is karma for all the stupid shit they did during their colonial times.
I always thing may be their immigration and multiculturalism problems is karma for all the stupid shit they did during their colonial times.
Earthbound64
Banned
Rome says "Hold my wine."
sazzy
Member
What surprises me the most is that Gandhi, Nehru and Jinnah had in front of them the example of British colonies in America successfully gaining independence as a single, united republic, yet they chose to go for the partition route.
I'd have loved to see the results of a US-style federal republic with smaller provinces/states in India+Pakistan+Bangladesh.
I'd have loved to see the results of a US-style federal republic with smaller provinces/states in India+Pakistan+Bangladesh.
That is fucked up.
History is sadly, full of events like these. I guess you could say history is written by the victors, and also people with power.
People believe Gandhi was a perfect man - but he said controversial things like how Jews shouldn't have resisted Hitler but have given themselves to him. He slept with younger women naked to see if he had control over his carnal urges.
People believe Mother Teresa was a saint - she often let patients in her care suffer, because she believed it would bring them closer to salvation/god. She received tons of donations and grants, but never updated her facilities to a good standard. She converted multiple people on their death bed, even when they wished against it.
You can look through the history of America, and see the damage we've caused as a nation.
Even India itself, the 1984 Anti-Sikh riots. The India Government refuses to acknowledge it had any role in this, it refuses to teach this event in textbooks (from what I've heard - let me know if you've heard the opposite). Both California and Canada have ruled they deem this event as "Genocide," but India refutes that claim. No compensation was made, no apology was made.
http://time.com/3545867/india-1984-sikh-genocide-anniversary/ As far as I know, a lot of the people suspected to be involved were never jailed/hung/etc.
Partition wasn't the default option so much as the one that facts on the ground often necessitated. The imperial powers had gathered together huge swathes of territory into administrative regions despite their peoples not necessarily having any sort of communal feeling. If you start trying to turn that into a democratic system, you immediately confront the question of whether this state is even workable on that basis.
You saw the same thing in Europe in the 20th century with, e.g., the carve-up of Austria-Hungary after the First World War. Austria-Hungary was stitched together from a dozen major ethnic groups that had nothing in common other than the Habsburgs having managed to acquire the land at some point.
Arguably that's part of the problem in Libya right now. Libya has hardly any history as an independent state. It's just been handed off between empires dating back to the Carthaginians, and then spent the last half-century as an autocracy.
crimzonflame
Member
It isnt karma, its a direct result.
Earthbound64
Banned
It's not like there were many examples to that point of a partition not working.
The above sounds like hindsight bias/revisionist history to me.
sazzy
Member
probably.
Pakistan and Pakistanis suffered the most. Also the Sikhs did too as they lost most of Punjab to Pakistan and then had half taken and split amongst states of Haryana and Himachal Pradesh after. The birthplace of Sikhism and the most holiest of places is actually still in Pakistan.
Pakistan then in an effort to build Muslim solidarity turned its back on their South Asian heritage to embrace Middle Eastern culture. Pakistani muslims will rarely or never see the Taj Mahal. Will never visit cities like Agra or places like Old Delhi again. See massive Islamic/Mughal forts. Think of how much Mughlai cuisine, dress, music and culture impacted India. Or even forget Islam, the history of the Indus valley is now largely granted to India and Indians. Pakistanis cannot take pride in the Taj Mahal, it isn't theirs anymore. Things like Buddhism, Sikhism, Jainism, Parsi, Sindhi, Christianity is largely alien. All the businesses, shops, centuries of culture now co-opted by India. India largely becomes Hindustan. Many Pakistanis still speak Punjabi,the local dialect,but many also speak and converse in Arabic. The Salwar Kameez is being replaced by Burqas and Niqabs.
Partition itself was brutal. Hundreds of thousands dead, millions more lost their loved ones, families, centuriea of upbringing, livelihoods gone. Imagine a united India and Pakistan and Bangladesh again. Over 200 million+ Muslims still live in India, whereas Pakistan forced to become an Islamic theocracy, increasingly hardline. When you see India, think of their top Bollywood actors, they are Muslim. The father of India's space and missile program Abdul Kalam was muslim. Maybe one day they will reunite, maybe not. In the end, Britain raped and pillaged and looted the sub-continent and then left it irrevocably fucked up. At least the Persian Mughals integrated and united and remained for centuries.
Pakistan then in an effort to build Muslim solidarity turned its back on their South Asian heritage to embrace Middle Eastern culture. Pakistani muslims will rarely or never see the Taj Mahal. Will never visit cities like Agra or places like Old Delhi again. See massive Islamic/Mughal forts. Think of how much Mughlai cuisine, dress, music and culture impacted India. Or even forget Islam, the history of the Indus valley is now largely granted to India and Indians. Pakistanis cannot take pride in the Taj Mahal, it isn't theirs anymore. Things like Buddhism, Sikhism, Jainism, Parsi, Sindhi, Christianity is largely alien. All the businesses, shops, centuries of culture now co-opted by India. India largely becomes Hindustan. Many Pakistanis still speak Punjabi,the local dialect,but many also speak and converse in Arabic. The Salwar Kameez is being replaced by Burqas and Niqabs.
Partition itself was brutal. Hundreds of thousands dead, millions more lost their loved ones, families, centuriea of upbringing, livelihoods gone. Imagine a united India and Pakistan and Bangladesh again. Over 200 million+ Muslims still live in India, whereas Pakistan forced to become an Islamic theocracy, increasingly hardline. When you see India, think of their top Bollywood actors, they are Muslim. The father of India's space and missile program Abdul Kalam was muslim. Maybe one day they will reunite, maybe not. In the end, Britain raped and pillaged and looted the sub-continent and then left it irrevocably fucked up. At least the Persian Mughals integrated and united and remained for centuries.
There's also the 1962 Chinese-Indian intern camps, similar to what happened in the US with Japanese-Americans.
He's a monster.
The Indian subcontinent is home to a lot of ethnic tribes, but there is some overlap like the Punjabis.
Culturally the two have a lot of common, especially the love for Cricket lol.
No, not even all Indians are the same just like all Europeans are not the same. You have to remember the history of the sub-continent is one of invasion. Whether it was the Aryans, the Mughals, the Europeans etc. Pakistan, Afghanistan, Nepal, and North to North mid-India have a lot of overlap. South and Far East India is very different from the rest if you think of genetics, language, religion, cuisine and culture.
Think of Pakistan and North India like you would North and South Korea or Ukraine and Russia. If you were to meet a Punjabi Indian and Punjabi Pakistani,there would be little difference.
DarkLordMalik
Member
As a Pakistani, I am glad the country exists as it is. I just wish it wasn't fucked by the military as much.
Still hopeful for the future.
Still hopeful for the future.
Earthbound64
Banned
Fair enough.
Will have to see how CPEC changes the country.
NyMartin90
Member
I just returned to the thread and want to thank everyone who's added to it so far. There's alot I want to comment on. Alot of people are interested in East Pakistan and one of the things I was always curious about this since a kid was the disastrous administration of Yahya Khan.
Just listen to his interviews prior to the war.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9cHUJBt2Sw
This is what Pakistan looked like before his reforms:
Just listen to his interviews prior to the war.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9cHUJBt2Sw
This is all thanks to this man. Zia-ul-Haq did irreparable damage to Pakistani society and its laws. Jinnah's dream died with his ascension to power. Islamization was being used by him to fuel religious fervour to unite the many different ethnic groups but cost Pakistan its soul and pushed away the secular ideals Jinnah wished would be in Pakistan.
This is what Pakistan looked like before his reforms:
Hippies at a low-rent hotel in Karachis Saddar area in 1973. Photo courtesy of The Herald
Two candidates of far-left student groups during an election at the Karachi University (1973). Photo courtesy of The Herald
A 1973 press ad (in DAWN newspaper) of one of Karachis many famous nightclubs of the 1970s, The Oasis.
Students outside the Arts Lobby of Karachi University (1974).
A 1972 cover of Pakistans leading monthly magazine, The Herald.
A bus for tourists in Peshawar (1973).
A full house at Karachis Nishat Cinema (1973).
PIA stewardesses in 1962.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
Fucked up and horrific all the way around.
Mr. PlayStation
Member
utter baseless nonsense. What proof do you have against the current prime minister of India?
Mr. PlayStation
Member
India had a wonderful Muslim President, the late Sir APJ Abdul Kalam. The world is still searching for a humble soul like him!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._P._J._Abdul_Kalam
NyMartin90
Member
He was a good President but I personally doubt with large parties like the BJP, India will not see a Muslim as Prime Minister. Just as in current Pakistan you will not see a minority ever in power.
Wow, completely different.
If you ever saw the movie Bhowani Junction it is filmed in Lahore.
Sirpopopop
Member
Donald Trump is a better man than your prime minister.
He, at least, doesn't have anything like the 2002 Gujurat riots on his hands. Your PM was internationally condemned for his role in inciting the riots.
https://www.hrw.org/report/2002/04/...articipation-and-complicity-communal-violence
Here's your fucking proof.
Maybe if some Muslims didn't burn Hindu priests alive on a train this wouldn't have happened?
Lmao, what a post.
He's not wrong though. If you add India, Pakistan and Bangladesh, none of the Bangladeshi players would make the 11.
Great, the modi bhakts are here. Read my post up.
i need to frame this post. it's maybe the strongest argument for abandoning any hope for india becoming a modern country unshackled from the bigotries and backwardsness of the past
kittoo
Cretinously credulous
Like every India thread, some people here (mostly from the west, I suppose) writing how bad the Indian PM is (terrorist, monster) without having much idea either about the complexities of the issues or knowledge of the events that happened. Not their fault as they get their opinions made by the media and we all know thar media never has any agenda or bias (/s). As an Indian living in India and someone deeply interested in politics, let me try explaining.
This is what I posted in the other thread. Mostly concerns about the BJP (Modi's party) and Indian politics.
Its a very complicated topic so its hard to do justice, but the basic gist is that there are no fence sitters. For close to 60 years the Congress (opposition of BJP) mollycoddled the minorities (especially Muslim) that it drove most Hindus towards the other extreme. Some of the laws policies of Congress went as far as being directly anti-hindu (RTE, the proposed communal act, handling of Pandit exodus from kashmir, handling of Godhra train burning..the list goes on). The Congress was so towards the deep end that when 59 hindu pilgrims were burnt alive in a train by a Muslim mob in Godhra (more on it later), Congress formed a committee and announced that the fire was spontaneous! Despite there being overwhelming proof that it was done by a mob which came from a mosque nearby! In fact, the mob was lead by a Congress leader (who also stopped fire trucks from reaching the spot). Do you think that would not enrage the Hindus and make them hate the Congress party? And the more the Hindus protested and drifted towards BJP, the more Congress went towards minorities. In the end the situation became so that most of the Hindus deserted the Congress and went with BJP (and hence the complete rout of Congress from almost whole India). Nevertheless Congress has had control over the media, state institutions, universities and much more in its 60 years of rule and that continues to a substantial extent. The media has almost become the third arm of Congress in opposing the BJP.
So basically most of the Indians have gone for BJP and hate Congress to the core. Ones with Congress hate the BJP for taking the power they thought they would always have and fan the fires, often via media, in hoping they would come back to power or at least damage the reputation of BJP. Each group hates the other to the core.
Obviously the summary doesnt contain the nuances and the issue is far far more complicated. The media has its own narrative (be it Indian or western) and serves what it wants to portray. The narrative of 'Hindus killing Muslims' is just that, a narrative. In India there are bound to be clashes between 2 people of different communities and a lot of them would not be communal in nature. If a Muslim dies, be it for any reason, the narrative gets made. Hindus too die (be it the recent killings in Kerala or Bengal, be it 2 kids in MP who were killed because they supported a singer who didn't like loud azaans..And so on) at the hands of Muslims for various reasons, but there is no narrative to be made there.
Coming to Modi. He gets most hate for the 2001 riots. Before accusing him of things, maybe people should read up a bit. It started with the Godhra train burnings, where 59 hindu pilGrims were burned alive by a Muslim mob. What do you think would happen? That there would be no reprisals at all? That Hindus would not ba angered? Nevertheless, modi (who had just become the chief minister of the state) anticipated it asked the three nearby states (Rajasthan, Madhya Pradesh and Maharashtra) to send reserve forces to control the situation. This call was sent the same day the burnings happened. All 3 states were ruled by the Congress at the time, and refused. Massive riots across the state ensued. And while the media likes to portray that the government did nothing, around 200 out of the total 900 killed were Hindus and most of them died when the police opened fire to control the riots.
The Congress ruled the center for 10 years after that, and tried every resource they had to get evidence against Modi and to put him behind bars. Did not happen. The Supreme Court (which also leans left in India) made investigative committee and years of their investigation didn't find anything against Modi. He was freed of all charges and is now, as you all know, Prime Minister of India.
To those who say or think that they know more about the matter, via mere sound bytes from a clearly non-partisan (/s) media, than people who live in India, people who saw it happen, the Supreme Court of India and in general the people of India, I say get off the high horses and maybe do a lot of unbiased research on the topic before calling the PM of a huge and complex country a monster or terrorist.
This is what I posted in the other thread. Mostly concerns about the BJP (Modi's party) and Indian politics.
Its a very complicated topic so its hard to do justice, but the basic gist is that there are no fence sitters. For close to 60 years the Congress (opposition of BJP) mollycoddled the minorities (especially Muslim) that it drove most Hindus towards the other extreme. Some of the laws policies of Congress went as far as being directly anti-hindu (RTE, the proposed communal act, handling of Pandit exodus from kashmir, handling of Godhra train burning..the list goes on). The Congress was so towards the deep end that when 59 hindu pilgrims were burnt alive in a train by a Muslim mob in Godhra (more on it later), Congress formed a committee and announced that the fire was spontaneous! Despite there being overwhelming proof that it was done by a mob which came from a mosque nearby! In fact, the mob was lead by a Congress leader (who also stopped fire trucks from reaching the spot). Do you think that would not enrage the Hindus and make them hate the Congress party? And the more the Hindus protested and drifted towards BJP, the more Congress went towards minorities. In the end the situation became so that most of the Hindus deserted the Congress and went with BJP (and hence the complete rout of Congress from almost whole India). Nevertheless Congress has had control over the media, state institutions, universities and much more in its 60 years of rule and that continues to a substantial extent. The media has almost become the third arm of Congress in opposing the BJP.
So basically most of the Indians have gone for BJP and hate Congress to the core. Ones with Congress hate the BJP for taking the power they thought they would always have and fan the fires, often via media, in hoping they would come back to power or at least damage the reputation of BJP. Each group hates the other to the core.
Obviously the summary doesnt contain the nuances and the issue is far far more complicated. The media has its own narrative (be it Indian or western) and serves what it wants to portray. The narrative of 'Hindus killing Muslims' is just that, a narrative. In India there are bound to be clashes between 2 people of different communities and a lot of them would not be communal in nature. If a Muslim dies, be it for any reason, the narrative gets made. Hindus too die (be it the recent killings in Kerala or Bengal, be it 2 kids in MP who were killed because they supported a singer who didn't like loud azaans..And so on) at the hands of Muslims for various reasons, but there is no narrative to be made there.
Coming to Modi. He gets most hate for the 2001 riots. Before accusing him of things, maybe people should read up a bit. It started with the Godhra train burnings, where 59 hindu pilGrims were burned alive by a Muslim mob. What do you think would happen? That there would be no reprisals at all? That Hindus would not ba angered? Nevertheless, modi (who had just become the chief minister of the state) anticipated it asked the three nearby states (Rajasthan, Madhya Pradesh and Maharashtra) to send reserve forces to control the situation. This call was sent the same day the burnings happened. All 3 states were ruled by the Congress at the time, and refused. Massive riots across the state ensued. And while the media likes to portray that the government did nothing, around 200 out of the total 900 killed were Hindus and most of them died when the police opened fire to control the riots.
The Congress ruled the center for 10 years after that, and tried every resource they had to get evidence against Modi and to put him behind bars. Did not happen. The Supreme Court (which also leans left in India) made investigative committee and years of their investigation didn't find anything against Modi. He was freed of all charges and is now, as you all know, Prime Minister of India.
To those who say or think that they know more about the matter, via mere sound bytes from a clearly non-partisan (/s) media, than people who live in India, people who saw it happen, the Supreme Court of India and in general the people of India, I say get off the high horses and maybe do a lot of unbiased research on the topic before calling the PM of a huge and complex country a monster or terrorist.
Wow. Great article. I just imagine the journey sometimes, on foot, and I just can't believe it. And I can't believe my grandfather and his family, along with millions of others, had to go through it. I wonder what was going through his mind when this happened. I really wish I learned about this stuff when he was still alive
, would've given me something to talk about with him.To provide some context to this, the whole "the media is an arm of the left wing party" is the same bullshit the GOP has been pulling in America for decades. Once that gets pointed out, a lot of this other stuff starts to eerily echo tea party talking points, just change Christian to Hindu.
Secondly, the Godhra train burnings were investigated and the forensics points towards the fire starting within the car, along with other evidence highlighting the likelihood of someone in the car--somone recognized and known by the Hindu pilgrims--starting the fire. Even if you ignore those facts, the attempt to justify the massacre of hundreds of the Muslim minority community--a massacre backed by and actively helped by institutional leaders, including the current Prime Minister of India--by saying, effectively "well they killed some people so they had it coming" is a real messed up thing, and, again calls back to the Tulsa race riots and the burning of Black Wall Street. Notice how far right, white supremacist racists in America (a group rightfully vilified) happen to map quite well on the BJP base, just with a focus on Hindus instead of White Christians? Hmmm. (/s)
Mr. PlayStation
Member
Err Supreme court cleared him of all charges, who are you to say otherwise?
https://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/2013/12/26/court-clears-narendra-modi-in-riots-case/
Mr. PlayStation
Member
I have no clue what a modi Bhakt is, but he called a man who's a prime minister of the world's second largest democratic-secular nation a terrorist, thus my response.
was this the same supreme court responsible for that recent decision stating that it is mandatory to screen the indian national anthem before movies
and if you don't stand up in reverance you get arrested?
the way india is headed, it won't be secular for much longer
also how do you classify it as the "second largest?" by population the only larger country is china, which is most certainly not democratic.
Mr. PlayStation
Member
Wow. Great article. I just imagine the journey sometimes, on foot, and I just can't believe it. And I can't believe my grandfather and his family, along with millions of others, had to go through it. I wonder what was going through his mind when this happened. I really wish I learned about this stuff when he was still alive
Yeah, if I ever get around to my Lahore trip I'm definitely gonna try to take my granddad with me. He's always been interested in seeing his birthplace.
Mr. PlayStation
Member
kittoo
Cretinously credulous
The 'forensic report' etc. You are mentioning were from the same commission by the Congress as I mentioned (mukherjee or chatterjee commission, will search and post the exact name). It's report was thrown out by the Supreme Court as baseless bullshit fiction.
Also, you cleverly do not mention that actual people were convicted (including the local congress leader, haji billal) by the courts a couple of years back. So the courts just randomly sent some poor innocents while the actual pilgrims just died of spontaneous fire?
Have all your biases man but at least respect the people who were burned alive. At least do not spread lies that they died for No reason.
as i pointed out in the other thread, there's a meaningful difference between having it be an optional thing that you can chose to stay sitting and wait out on
and making it mandatory, punishable with a prison sentence
(guess which of the two the us is)
again isn't this the same supreme court as mentioned above
they definitely don't have the sterling reputation of the us sc, that's for sure.
plus, knowing how india is... yes, they probably did send innocents to jail. and using their lives as an excuse to kill more people does more disrespect to holy people (remember how tied to nonviolence hinduism is? at least in the interpretation gandhi put forth?) than poking holes in the more convenient story as to how they died.
plus, that "baseless bullshit fiction" made some irrefutable points that line up with the reality, one of the more damning ones being that it would be remarkably difficult for those on the outside to pour gasoline into windows seven feet off the ground, and even if they could, they would have spilled some and the resulting fire would have spread to the bottom of the car and left some scorch marks on the tracks... but it didn't. plus, the emergency brake was pulled, according to the train's engineer, which can only be done from within the train. add in the fact this took place soon after a terrorist attack and a stranger carrying a tank full of liquid would be spotted and questioned/forced off immediately...
but of course you're just going to shrug all of this off as #FakeNews and continue on parroting that muslims were to blame for the train fire, therefore their community as a whole deserved to suffer unimaginable loss. feel a bit like george wallace yet?
The same court that found Salman Khan not guilty. Bravo!
This.
The amount of spin in that post is absolutely stunning. IT'S ALL CONGRESS' FAULT.
Using the Godhra incident to justify the riots and murders of thousands of people is indeed fucked up. Modi was found to be the culprit for issuing orders not to act, not to control the riots. The police had purposely handed over the list of Muslim homes, businesses to the Hindu mob. The official who leaked this info was murdered.
There are idiots on both sides but you don't let massacres like that to happen. And all of this is predated by Babri which surprise surprise was also orchestrated by BJP. Modi is the Indian version of Trump, more extreme in a lot of areas and not as stupid in some areas. To sum up, your assumption that India won't stay secular is correct. It's fucked up now. MAKE INDIA GREAT AGAIN.
Finally caught up to this thread and my god I feel ashamed I didn't know much about the history of the Partition. And the root cause of it was Religion and the British wanting to bail out ASAP?!
I can't but feel angry towards the British and their legacy of raping the world and then just bailing out when things got tough for them. They did it for the Middle East, they did it the Indian subcontinent and they did it for Africa. And now the fucking dare to scream about immigration and BREXIT?! Such hippocracy.
Someone brought up a good point about a successful former colony, USA and the Indians could've learned from that. But I think part of the root cause were the differing cultures, religions, ideologies compared to the Americans that it wouldn't have worked furthermore, I doubt the British tried to enlighten the native Indians during their 200 years of raping her. America's war of Indepence was fought for by colonists and not the Natives.
I can't but feel angry towards the British and their legacy of raping the world and then just bailing out when things got tough for them. They did it for the Middle East, they did it the Indian subcontinent and they did it for Africa. And now the fucking dare to scream about immigration and BREXIT?! Such hippocracy.
Someone brought up a good point about a successful former colony, USA and the Indians could've learned from that. But I think part of the root cause were the differing cultures, religions, ideologies compared to the Americans that it wouldn't have worked furthermore, I doubt the British tried to enlighten the native Indians during their 200 years of raping her. America's war of Indepence was fought for by colonists and not the Natives.
According to the article the house of commons disapproved and Churchill have an impassioned speech of its brutality.
tearsintherain
Member
As an American its really fascinating to read the internal political strife's of India, thanks for sharing those posts. I do find it pretty interesting how many countries nowadays have broken up into rigid ideological factions - wonder what it says about the nature of people and tribalism.