The people complain about cross-gen games and also complain about current gen games not being “next gen” looking

SlimySnake SlimySnake rolling in the thread,
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remember_spinal said:
I think some of you just have to admit that you lost your love for gaming and that you'll never get that feeling back from when you were 10 years old. The absolute obsession with being "blown away" by graphics combined with the impatience for how long it takes studios to make those games, doesn't seem to be worth it for a lot of you.
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Cmon man, don't say this, NeoGAF's userbase will drop in half if you do
 
remember_spinal said:
After we've had trailers for FF16, Silent Hill 2, and Dead Space the past week I've been seeing a lot of complaints about current gen games looking like last gen games. I've also seen non-stop complaining about the cross-gen game period. Is it me or do people have short term memories? Haven't games always taken a few years to really start pushing consoles to their limit?

Even Horizon Zero Dawn was a big current gen showpiece on the PS4/PS4 Pro when it came out and in 2022, they managed to put HFW out that looks so much better, and honestly one of the best looking games on current gen consoles also. The games that come out in the first 3 years of a consoles life are not gonna be the jaw dropping 'next gen' experience you had going from the SNES to N64, it will continue to be a gradual climb year after year despite the platform its released on.

I think some of you just have to admit that you lost your love for gaming and that you'll never get that feeling back from when you were 10 years old. The absolute obsession with being "blown away" by graphics combined with the impatience for how long it takes studios to make those games, doesn't seem to be worth it for a lot of you.
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They are the same elk as digital foundry. Performance chasing pixel counters. Mostly PC gamers at that. I say that as a PC gamer and a 4090 owner.
 
arkhamguy123 said:
60FPS. I know people don't like to hear it and I'm not making the 30FPS vs 60FPS argument here but that even for your next gen only games will hold them back. People can still be blown away. The 2020 UE5 demo with the elf lady. The matrix demo. Blew people away and to this day nothing comes close. And 2 years later for the former. The 2020 demo? 1440p/30fps. Matrix? 1080p/30fps. But gamers will cry if a developer targets 30fps now to push fidelity. It is what it is. How graphically impressive (at the time) would killzone 2 or uncharted 3 be on the ps3 if they were targeting 60fps? How about the order 1886, the last of us 2, ghosts of Tsushima for the ps4? They'd be lucky to look half as impressive (at the time) if they all had to have a mandated 60fps mode. You see my point?

The chasm between current graphical fidelity and high quality movie cgi is LARGE still, ergo, there is still substantial room for improvement. We haven't hit the fabled "diminishing returns" plateau yet. Not even close.
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Disagree trying to push 4K has been more of a problem as it's more demanding than taking a jump from 30 fps to 60 fps.

It people's unrealistic expectations. Diminishing returns will getting less of a jump every Generation.
 
Dunky said:
Disagree trying to push 4K has been more of a problem as it's more demanding than taking a jump from 30 fps to 60 fps.

It people's unrealistic expectations. Diminishing returns will getting less of a jump every Generation.
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I don't think it's binary. Let's agree that both together make it even worse.

If this gen were a 1440p/30fps we'd be seeing graphical bangers already.
 
Unreal Engine 5 has proved PS5 and XSX are far from the true next gen.

So yes, when I see a very good cross gen game, I say it's a good game but it's not a nextgen game.
 
I think its just time to stop caring so much about graphics. You don't even need advanced graphics to have beautiful visuals.

When i see people complaining how Elden Ring "looks ugly" i can only think that person must be having a really sad time with videogames as his hobby.
 
Guilty_AI said:
I think its just time to stop caring so much about graphics. You don't even need advanced graphics to have beautiful visuals.

When i see people complaining how Elden Ring "looks ugly" i can only think that person must be having a really sad time with videogames as his hobby.
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Exactly.
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Pelta88 said:
You must have never played it.

The sum of all Returnal's parts combine to make that ip visually incredible. Especially on my OLED.
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I've played it. The particle effects are impressive. That's about it. The textures can look awful (especially on the giant statues that just seem to be enlarged versions of the small ones). There are a lot of areas that just look unfinished (holes in the walls in corners as well as the floor that go through the map). The game is also running at upscaled 1080p, which looks very last-gen.
 
SafeOrAlone said:
My issue in regards to cross-gen games has less to do with graphics and more to do with holding back the processing power.

The new God of War - say it wants to have 30 enemies on screen at once....Well, doesn't have that option, because it has to run on PS4.

Cross-gen holds back game design.
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That's not really our problem to worry about. It's up to the designers of the game. Having more enemies on screen at once for the sake of having more enemies doesn't make a lot of sense on its own, unless the situation or scenario dictates it and IF that is what the designers are trying to show in their game, otherwise, what would be the point?

If their design truly required that, I am sure they would all make the decision to make their game "next gen" only.
 
sainraja said:
That's not really our problem to worry about. It's up to the designers of the game. Having more enemies on screen at once for the sake of having more enemies doesn't make a lot of sense on its own, unless the situation or scenario dictates it and IF that is what the designers are trying to show in their game, otherwise, what would be the point?

If their design truly required that, I am sure they would all make the decision to make their game "next gen" only.
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It's 100% our problem to worry about, because we are the ones who want to enjoy the game to it's fullest potential.

It's not about having more enemies on the screen. It's about having the option to have more enemies on the screen. It's just an example of how the processing power limits the imagination of the developers. They simply can't do things they could do with more power. That's why there are new consoles in the first place.
 
Guilty_AI said:
I think its just time to stop caring so much about graphics. You don't even need advanced graphics to have beautiful visuals.

When i see people complaining how Elden Ring "looks ugly" i can only think that person must be having a really sad time with videogames as his hobby.
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100% agree, most of the time what make the game looking gorgeous is its art direction more than high tech graphics.


Also don't know how react to people who consider Elden Ring as "ugly".
 
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SafeOrAlone said:
It's 100% our problem to worry about, because we are the ones who want to enjoy the game to it's fullest potential.

It's not about having more enemies on the screen. It's about having the option to have more enemies on the screen. It's just an example of how the processing power limits the imagination of the developers. They simply can't do things they could do with more power. That's why there are new consoles in the first place.
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We're playing through a game that is designed by someone else for US to experience. That is how most games are anyway so if their game design doesn't require more enemies, why build that in?

Sure, during the design/planning stage, technology can influence how they design their game but if a good idea won't work on old hardware, I think most developers would make the call to drop it and move forward with the new.

I mean, I see both sides but ultimately the product we get, is the design of someone else.
 
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SafeOrAlone said:
Cross-gen holds back game design.
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When you say "holding" back are we talking about interactivity and better AI or are we just talking about prettier graphics.

Because the way I look at it old games like Fear on weaker system had better AI than newer games..

And when it comes to more interaction......

 
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Danjin44 said:
When you say "holding" back are we talking about interactivity and better AI or are we just talking about prettier graphics.

Because they way I look at it old games like Fear on weaker system had better AI than newer games..

And when it comes to more interaction......
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It's time to accept that hardware isn't why so many modern games are lacking. It is a fundamental lack of time, passion, freedom and competence. It's very easy to point fingers at hardware because there is always better hardware to compare to. But you can't deny how we've regressed in so many fields (AI is geniunely the worst it has ever been) despite exponentially better hardware. Something else happened and it's a very inconvenient conversation for the industry and devs to have. Complaining suddenly isn't as nice when you're at the center of the problem.
 
Klosshufvud said:
It's time to accept that hardware isn't why so many modern games are lacking. It is a fundamental lack of time, passion, freedom and competence. It's very easy to point fingers at hardware because there is always better hardware to compare to. But you can't deny how we've regressed in so many fields (AI is geniunely the worst it has ever been) despite exponentially better hardware. Something else happened and it's a very inconvenient conversation for the industry and devs to have. Complaining suddenly isn't as nice when you're at the center of the problem.
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This is bullshit. For example, TLOU 2 is not a great example of regression in AI, passion, freedom and competence.
 
Markio128 said:
This is bullshit. For example, TLOU 2 is not a great example of regression in AI, passion, freedom and competence.
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One game amidst one thousand. One that also took like 5 years to make and still didn't have AI interactions as dynamic and sophisticated as MGS3. There will always be studios that go against the current. But it's no secret that many sequels of today are lacking the appeal of its older entries because the devs that created the original magic are long gone (which ironically also applies to TLOU2).
 
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Klosshufvud said:
One game amidst one thousand. One that also took like 5 years to make and still didn't have AI interactions as dynamic and sophisticated as MGS3. There will always be studios that go against the current. But it's no secret that many sequels of today are lacking the appeal of its older entries because the devs that created the original magic are long gone (which ironically also applies to TLOU2).
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The point is, there are very few examples of games with incredible AI throughout the whole of gaming history, so the lack of them is not a new thing.
 
Markio128 said:
The point is, there are very few examples of games with incredible AI throughout the whole of gaming history, so the lack of them is not a new thing.
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The fact that we still have the basic ass cone vision invisible bush shit in modern AAA games like AC Valhalla, Cyberpunk and Horizon is telling that AI development did not develop with time. It's as basic and lame as ever, despite the games being 100 million dollar projects. Tenchu 1 from 1998 pulled all that off without anyone making a big fuss about it.
 
Klosshufvud said:
The fact that we still have the basic ass cone vision invisible bush shit in modern AAA games like AC Valhalla, Cyberpunk and Horizon is telling that AI development did not develop with time. It's as basic and lame as ever, despite the games being 100 million dollar projects. Tenchu 1 from 1998 pulled all that off without anyone making a big fuss about it.
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i think it's cuz there aren't really many engines promoting advanced, sophisticated AI systems. Most of UE5's innovations are in optimization and polypushing, as well as 3d sound
but none of them go over giving the enemy actual brains or making them behave like a human which is a shame considering what AI are capable of these days. if the leading engine in the industry doesn't make adding great, smart enemy AI simple, no developer will want to bother
 
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Klosshufvud said:
The fact that we still have the basic ass cone vision invisible bush shit in modern AAA games like AC Valhalla, Cyberpunk and Horizon is telling that AI development did not develop with time. It's as basic and lame as ever, despite the games being 100 million dollar projects. Tenchu 1 from 1998 pulled all that off without anyone making a big fuss about it.
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I think there is a very fine line between creating clever AI and a fun game. Fun is certainly not reliant on good AI.
 
Yeah the costumer are wrong, not like these new machine are incredible underpowered, while being the most expensive next gen consoles we ever had.

Also, my mistake, you don't get to call a 2 years old machine "new". We already had the Witcher 3 by this time on the last gen.

The new gen is disappointing, it's time to drop the copium and stop pretending that it is not. We will get mid gen refresh soon, and maybe only there we will have what current gen should have been.
 
justiceiro said:
Yeah the costumer are wrong, not like these new machine are incredible underpowered, while being the most expensive next gen consoles we ever had.

Also, my mistake, you don't get to call a 2 years old machine "new". We already had the Witcher 3 by this time on the last gen.

The new gen is disappointing, it's time to drop the copium and stop pretending that it is not. We will get mid gen refresh soon, and maybe only there we will have what current gen should have been.
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Witcher 3 wasn't developed during a global pandemic. Why are people so quick to forget how fucked up things were only a year or two ago?
 
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50% of PC's on Steam have PC with GPU below 1660TI & CPU equal or below I5 seventh gen. How many have next gen consoles?
What you think, haw many AAA developers & publishers will make games for "only" new consoles or high end PC's?
I bet they will be happy to lose money.
 
Klosshufvud said:
The fact that we still have the basic ass cone vision invisible bush shit in modern AAA games like AC Valhalla, Cyberpunk and Horizon is telling that AI development did not develop with time.
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Smart AI doesn't necessarely translates into fun, its something far too many people don't understand. See Alien Isolation.

Pretty sure what people actually want when they say stuff like this is world reactiveness, however that is pretty tied to budget and development time.
As the number of ways to interact with the game, npcs and world growns, the more exponentially complex development growns, because the devs needs to take into account everything the players may do if they don't want them to cheese or break the game.
Its much easier to develop an "advanced AI" in a game with closed levels or corridors than it is for an open world one, the scenarios and possibilities are much more limited after all.

There are ways to develop those interactions without having to calculate every possibility, but it generally involves making completely different types of games, types i'm pretty sure most of the "next gen bros" wouldn't be into.
 
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Some of you are confusing "diminishing returns" with Standards.

People like us just know the medium is young and full of potential. We want to see better.

I enjoy games, I also know the medium could be unchallenged as the GOAT form of entertainment if devs tapped into its potential more. And that has nothing to do with graphics. Graphics are just fun to talk about online.
 
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Represent. said:
Some of you are confusing "diminishing returns" with Standards.

People like us just know the medium is young and full of potential. We want to see better.

I enjoy games, I also know the medium could be unchallenged as the GOAT form of entertainment if devs tapped into its potential more. And that has nothing to do with graphics. Graphics are just fun to talk about online.
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Just takes time. The best games of last gen weren't made in the first two years, i don't expect that will apply to this gen either.
 
GymWolf said:
These console are just not powerfull enough to show a real jump now that diminishing returns are a thing, especially if they aim for 4k or 60 frames, end of the story.


But it is still too early to talk, i expect big things from the usual wizards in the next 3-5 years when crossgen is not gonna be a thing anymore.
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Go play last of us 2 on a og PS4. If they managed that then how much more is possible on current gen consoles. These consoles are powerful enough to show a massive leap when they are properly utilised.
 
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sainraja said:
We're playing through a game that is designed by someone else for US to experience. That is how most games are anyway so if their game design doesn't require more enemies, why build that in?

Sure, during the design/planning stage, technology can influence how they design their game but if a good idea won't work on old hardware, I think most developers would make the call to drop it and move forward with the new.

I mean, I see both sides but ultimately the product we get, is the design of someone else.
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It's not about shoehorning more enemies into God of War, that's just an example of something that is off-limits to them, due to the game having to run on PS4.

We will likely see it appear in the form of forced walking sections, for one.

But, from the planning stages and onward, it limits the potential of the game.

I mean, if that weren't the case, why would we need a PS5 at all?
The point is to allow for gameplay experiences that weren't previously possible. It's the entire point of a new generation.
 
Pushing a console to its limit isn't really much of a thing anymore. We are going to get games with the level of graphics of FF16 and resident evil 4 remake for the whole gen. Time will prove this right
 
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Guilty_AI said:
I think its just time to stop caring so much about graphics. You don't even need advanced graphics to have beautiful visuals.

When i see people complaining how Elden Ring "looks ugly" i can only think that person must be having a really sad time with videogames as his hobby.
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I don't think anyone would complain Elden Ring looks ugly. It's certainly not next-gen and that's the developer's choice if they focus on everything else above graphics.

When a new generation is launched, every serious gamer is looking forward to what the new hardware can bring and how it can advance graphics in games. I bought a PS4 for that reason and will look to pick up a PS5 in future. Sure playing old gen games at higher frames and settings is a bonus but I'm most looking forward to Series X/PS5 when they're free of the last gen shackles because lets face it, there's nothing out there currently that is really pushing both consoles.

HiFiVideogameMusic said:
Pushing a console to its limit isn't really much of a thing anymore. We are going to get games with the level of graphics of FF16 and resident evil 4 remake for the whole gen. Time will prove this right
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lex-luthor-wrong.gif
 
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I imagine the reason most people upgrade to new, expensive hardware is to be blown away or see an admirable improvement in visuals and performance from their old consoles. Not helping that games prices went up to $70, so obviously consumers are expecting more from games. I think that's why we hear more nitpicking and complaints than ever nowadays. Probably not helping that games like Demon's Souls and Miles Morales raises expectancy high for later games as well.

Longer development time and rising, exorbitant costs is unfortunate for the developers, companies and gamers. While it's understandable due to games getting more complicated to create, not everyone wants to wait near a decade for their favorite sequels or games. Longer development time also raises anticipation and frustrates gamers and probably even the creators.

The reason people complain about cross generation games is because it generally holds back the true potential of current generation consoles. They feel like their new toys aren't being utilized to their full capabilities. It's like getting a nice new 4K TV and being limited to 1080p content.
 
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Console GPUs are not as powerful to provide both a jump in visuals and higher Fps and resolution.

You can either: play more 8th gen games at 60 fps and 1440p 4k with some ray tracing. Or true next gen games at 1080p 60

I actually think we could have kept 8th gen consoles for 2 years and the new ones should have been released in 2023. Dev cycles are getting longer so it makes sense consoles take longer to be phased out.

Folks are pissed because games kept being released in a buggy state.
 
Demons souls and ratchet and clank looked next gen to me… but Is that the best these consoles can do?
 
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arkhamguy123 said:
No.

We've seen better. UE5 2020 Ruins demo. Matrix. Even bluepoints next game and Wolverine/Spider-Man 2 will look better than those games.
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The ue5 demos don't count to me since they're tech demos - I hope the insomniac games will look markedly better but I'd like to see footage of them soon. And I'd like if Microsoft also had at least one game on that level as well since I own both consoles
 
The original max speed of Ford's 1908 Model T car was about 40 miles per hour. Imagine if car buyers refused to buy cars unless the max speed doubled every 18 months. Gamers who were around for the original Atari console will just have to have more realistic expectations.
 
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Balducci30 said:
The ue5 demos don't count to me since they're tech demos - I hope the insomniac games will look markedly better but I'd like to see footage of them soon. And I'd like if Microsoft also had at least one game on that level as well since I own both consoles
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Flightsim and Horizon 5 are both very impressive. What we've seen of HB2 is more impressive than anything shown so far.
 
What next gen has probably failed on so far is that combination of hitting it out of the park on all fronts in one game including next gen graphics. Stuff that begins to define the generation

Elden Ring lacking in graphics while excelling everywhere else for example and available on last gen.

A lot of the next gen show pieces are not new experiences eg TLOU P1, Demons Souls, SH2 remake

Meanwhile some next gen only games looking graphically good like Scorn have been bad games

We also got teased heavily on the possibilities with the UE5 demos

So alot of us are waiting for that next gen game. Returnal and Ratchet have been closest as mentioned, but I'd still rate both 8/10 games
 
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