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The Punisher - The man. The legend. The maniac. Here's your primer.

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ElTopo

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*Subscribed.

I'm going to think of this as a Punisher OT until the spinoff is out.

I have been a long time of the Punisher since I was about 8. Purely because he looked cool and he actually killed the bad guys as opposed to every other mainstream super hero. Did I mention that I grew up as a horror kid and tend to like nihilistic things? I read a 3 part War Zone comic as a kid but growing up, it was really hard to find Punisher comics in my neck of the woods. So I didn't get to read a lot of the comics back in the day.

But I am mutant in that I like all 3 films in different ways.

The Lundgreen one is a fun cheesy 80's action flick. The uncut version has some decent gore. And I like the plot of him teaming up with a mobster to save a kid. It's not perfect by any stretch but for what it is, it's fine and it's way better than something like Supergirl or the Captain America movies (up until the MCU ones).

The Thomas Jane one is the most well made. Jane was the best actor to play Frank Castle (I'm thinking Bernthal will nail it in a way that Ledger nailed the Joker). It's a shame that Jane was in such a flawed film. Travolta doesn't work as a villain. The surrogate family doesn't really work up until the torture scene. And it felt like a PG-13 flick. It sucks that the budget was cut and the Gulf War intro had to be cut from the script.

But there's certainly good things in the Thomas Jane Punisher flick: the origin of the Punisher logo was well done, The Russian fight (nuff said), the intro of the assassin with the guitar plus the resulting fight, the torture scene with the dude with piercings, and the last 10-15 minutes. Not bad, but not as great as it was destined to be.

War Zone is the most re-watchable one for. I've seen the Jane one about 4-5 times altogether. Whereas I've seen War Zone at least a dozen times. It's an odd duck in that it deliberately goes for OTT cheesiness and being self-aware. And being viewed in that context, it's good. The problem is that, is this the Punisher movie we wanted? And that depends on your individual taste. To some; they want a serious Punisher movie and the Jane flick comes the closest to being that. To others; they just want to see the Punisher violently killing tons of dudes, and this flick more than delivers that.

As of now: Dirty Laundry is the best live action interpretation of The Punisher.
 

WanderingWind

Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
So it's safe to assume he'll be an Iraq veteran this time around?

At this point, they could just call him former Spec Ops. They always operate, regardless of what else is happening. It'd keep him nice and modern until the end of time. But I think his best categorization will always, always be the former Vietnam-vet turned cop. So many layers to that origin.
 
Cap is always a douchebag.



When you factor in that he started a war with the X-Men single-handed...

The man has his moments. But you can't bring up AvX as a real counterpoint. Like, you can't. Scott wasn't much better. The only characters that came out of AvX unscathed, as far as writing goes, were Spider-Man and Hope Summers.
 

Currygan

at last, for christ's sake
You know, I think the best thing about Ennis' MAX run... is that sometimes you could feel rage rising off the page. His writing was so good, that at times, you could feel Frank's hate and rage almost worming its way into your head.

yes, that's true. As in Up is Down part one, which ends with a full page close up of Frank probably being more pissed off than he's ever been - and righftfully so, won't spoil what happens but yeah.
Leandro Fernandez da gawd

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Ennis' MAX Punisher run was genuinely scary horrible good. Quotes (I'm paraphrasing) but the images that accompany these lines are nightmare fuel.

"Don't come back here."

"I haven't hated anybody like this in a long time ."

"Homeboy is a little too good a swimmer."

"It's not as bad as it looks."

"Give her the rest."

"The air is clear and all is right with world."

"That's a rib gone. Not broken. Gone."

I love the contrast between Frank and Captain America. Cap is Frank's hero, but he lacks the will to do the dirty work that's necessary.

"Same guy, different war." Spidey knows best.


The shit this man has seen and done...

Hrm. Do feel that with a competent writer a steve-nick-frank war story could be very well done. All three have been deeply affected by wars, and while steve-frank is usually quite straightforward, if there is one man that can be depicted aa absolutely not willing to take any of Steve's bullshit, that man is is Nick.

Also feel that it could very easily derail, as it often does, into Good Guy Cap and Murderous Vigilante Fight Crime with a special cameo by Nick Fury!
 
Can anyone corroborate the idea that Garth Ennis used to envision Rutger Hauer while writing his Punisher scripts, because Rutger would have been old enough to be a Vietnam veteran, but also still able to deliver the business to criminals and pull off an Ennis quote afterwards.

I swear Ennis said this at some point, but a quick search shows me saying this same thing on a different forum, =(
 
Good thread!

I haven't read many Punisher books. I had a comic back in the day where I remember Frank giving some fellow trainee shit because the M60 was too heavy. Something like "you asked for the pig". I remember liking that comic.

I read another book where he was in Vietnam, got some general killed by a sniper... this one was cool too.

Anyone know what books/series I am remembering here?
 
The man has his moments. But you can't bring up AvX as a real counterpoint. Like, you can't. Scott wasn't much better. The only characters that came out of AvX unscathed, as far as writing goes, were Spider-Man and Hope Summers.

It's all relative, but Cap's inflexibility and holier-than-thou attitude was the main catalyst. He can never admit when he's wrong and just doubles down on his screw ups.

Frank knows he's not a "good" guy and doesn't pretend to be a hero. He gets shit done. No flag waving. No superiority complex. No preaching. Just punishment.
 

Big_Al

Unconfirmed Member
Great thread and OP. The Punisher is by far and away my favourite Marvel character and I've loved Frank Castle since I was a teenager. Ennis' MAX series is by far and away my favourite Punisher run ever and my favourite interpretation of the character. I must admit I've not read any Punisher comics in recent years so the OP is greatly helpful in this regard :)

Filmwise I've always had a soft spot for the Lundgren film and for War Zone. Lundgrens version more because I'm a fan of Dolph and War Zone because it feels like the MAX version of Punisher. But with a much poorer script compared to Ennis' writing. Ray Stevenson is by far and away my favourite Frank Castle filmwise and I thought he was fantastic. I like Thomas Jane but I thought his Punisher film was god fucking awful and not really Punisher like at all. His Punisher spent too much time fucking about, Frank doesn't play, he stabs you in the face with a knife as soon as fuckin look at you rather than all this 'setup' nonsense.

But yeah, love Frank/Punisher and I shall be lurking here :)
 

Cth

Member
Speaking of Punisher and Nick Fury..

There was this mini-cross over in the 90s of the pseudo imprint EDGE called "OVER THE EDGE" which had Doc Samson try to cure Frank. The session was interrupted by a spook who tries to brainwash Frank into killing Nick Fury.

He chases Fury throughout a bunch of titles like Dr. Strange, DD, Ghost Rider, etc, ultimately killing him. (later to be revealed as a LMD)

Apparently, after this, they had the mafia fake Frank's death and recruited him as head of the mafia.

Oh what fun the 90s were.

4311293-double+edge+v1995+%231+-+alpha+(1995_7)+-+page+1.jpg
 
It's all relative, but Cap's inflexibility and holier-than-thou attitude was the main catalyst. He can never admit when he's wrong and just doubles down on his screw ups.

Frank knows he's not a "good" guy and doesn't pretend to be a hero. He gets shit done. No flag waving. No superiority complex. No preaching. Just punishment.
You can't blame him for not wanting a cosmic entity that has done nothing but bad shit from coming to the planet. Again. Now, should he have shown up with helicarriers full of Avengers? Absolutely not, but he's not the only one who made stupid ass decisions during that debacle. It's not like Tony and Beast blew the damn thing into pieces. Or any of the X-Men actually thinking chucking a little, undertrained girl at the Phoenix was a good idea.

Besides, Cap calling Frank a psycho isn't wrong. The only way those villains could have surrendered more was by waving a white flag.
 

antonz

Member
Why only criminals?

Why not hunt and kill super villians?

He is a normal human being. So he generally goes after what he can actually deal with.

The reality of the Punisher is he is a creation of a world where people can do superthings for both good and evil yet the superheroes never seem to concerned with the street level stuff.

Tony Stark and buddies while hanging out in Stark tower could spend a day or two cleaning up street level stuff but don't. I mean we aren't supposed to really sympathize with Frank or what he stands for but in a world like that where so much evil shit goes on unstopped and you have Godlike figures etc. you can start to see his viewpoint.
 

Fury451

Banned
Which Iraq war is going to be the big question. Bernthal doesn't look his age, so he could pass for late 20's.

No need. Veterans of the second Iraq war are easily in their mid 30s and 40s if they were already in service when it started.

Why only criminals?

Why not hunt and kill super villians?

I think the general idea is that he goes after what he determines to be things that superheroes overlook. The day-to-day scum and villainy that people with powers are too busy to take on. Plus the kind of allows him to operate more low-key, because nobody really cares all that much in a bunch of mafia members and gang leaders get killed.
 
Why only criminals?

Why not hunt and kill super villians?

Superheroes (with some exceptions here and there) tend not to give a shit about street level crime, which leaves guys like Daredevil and Punisher scrambling to deal with your run-of-the-mill gangsters, rapists, serial killers, etc.

Though there was that time

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Here's the page I wanted re: Captain America:

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I didn't like Civil War because I feel the relationship between these two men should be more... equal in a sense.
 
Mezco unveiled these:
Pretty cool.
I mentioned this in some superhero dream movie thread, but if you want a recipe for a great Punisher movie:

You get Dennis Villeneuve to direct, and Joaquin Phoenix to star.

Joaquin-Phoenix-as-Lex-Luthor.jpg


Doin some Sicario style hits would be a killer combo. Dennis would bring the style and tension, and Phoenix could easily bring some depth and pathos to the role along with being menacing as fuck.
Reading a good idea like this hurts because I know nothing like that will happen.
 
I love that I knew the OP before clicking. Punisher, Nathan Drake, Walter White, Dexter, Hannibal....man's got a thing for serial killers!
 

olympia

Member
I didn't see it mentioned (might have missed it) but one 90's series that I really loved was Punisher Armory. It wasn't really a comic in the usual sense, but it was a mini series that just had really nice drawings of different weapons that Frank had along with Frank's description of them. I thought it nailed the character's tone really well.

I also really like Frankencastle. Everything about it is really good.
 
Oh man, so glad to see this thread. Always loved the character, and I hope DD season two does him justice. The lines in the trailer make me think they know what they're doing:

"You hit 'em and they get back up, I hit 'em and they stay down!"

"Why are you doing this?"
"Because I think you're a half-measure. I think you're a man who can't finish the job. I think that you're a coward."

I also really hope it creates enough demand for a Punisher Netflix series, the character really has a ton of untapped thematics to cover. I would love to see a series focused on him losing his humanity one day at a time. It starts with him as an impassioned fighter for justice, but you see him get more and more tired as criminals keep coming back and other 'crime fighters' and the public continually shun him. By the end, you can't even recognize him as the man from the beginning, an anti-redemption arc if you will. A great/tragic ending would be him finally snapping, killing a hero that tries to stop him, then he gets arrested and sentenced to death.
 

zon

Member
I think the panel where he torches his resurrected wife and children with a flamethrower is the perfect illustration of punisher. Nothing can come between him and his war, not even the people he uses to excuse his actions.
 

Icefire1424

Member
Thanks to this thread I picked up MAXX Volumes 2 and 3, just finished reading through Kitchen Irish. Had low expectations after what I read around here, but really liked it.

Securing the next several volumes will be a bit tougher though, seemingly all in perpetual "Temporarily Out of Stock" status on Amazon, but I think I can find a decent used copy. In it more for the story than the collection anyways.
 
Frank Castle's aliases:

Franken-Castle
Frank Rook
Charles Fort
Francias Stronghold
Johnny Tower
Frank Tower

Are these actual aliases he used? They're not even trying to be deceitful. Most are <Generic Name> <Structure>.
 
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