The Surge vs Dark Souls: A Detailed Comparison of Structure, Setting & Mechanics

Weltall Zero said:
No, my critique was literally that they went for robots, and cliched robots at that, when they could have gone for more original stuff. You then said that sci-fi is broad and doesn't mean only aliens (which is kind of an odd point to make, but whatever), and I then said a "broad" use of sci-fi would use robots AND aliens, and that this game is anything but broad.

Is that enough or do I need to write a PhD thesis before I'm allowed to criticise the game? And more to the point, if you disagree, why not just state "I disagree, look at this and this, that's creative" instead of trying to weave some strange argument that tries to make criticism itself invalid?
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I wasn't trying to make the criticism invalid, I definitely agree in part. Trust me, I really wish the first sci-fi Soulslike was a crazy grotesque Giger/Thing/Blame-inspired concept; that's like a dream game for me

But rather I was discussing the angle of the critique, the notion of criticizing something based on what you want it to be rather than what it actually is.

You say how sci-fi souls is such a rich concept but they decide to robots and an industrial setting when it could doing so much more, and the answer is simple: that's the story, setting, etc. of the game. I just see it as like asking why Terminator doesn't have aliens, or other questions along those lines

Although to be fair, I'm kind of glad they decided to go for the more grounded route. Mainly because that kind of crazy sci-fi Souls/Soulslike everyone would want really needs to be done right to capture the scope, scale, visuals. and tone, and I'm not sure I really trust Deck13 to be the ones to pull it off.

So I'll take this style of sci-fi Soulslike now and hope that inspires more devs to approach the subgenre from a sci-fi angle. One of the co-creators of The Expanse did some work for From, so we might not have to wait that long
 
Sanctuary said:
I don't really see Elysium references as much as I do others. At least in terms of humanoid sized enemies as well as your own look.

elysium_movie_stills_download_free.jpg

aliens_exoskeleton.jpg

AYNIK_D017_03538rv2_copy.jpg
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Only one of those movies doesn't have aliens, hence the comparison.
 
brawly said:
The game looks a bit bleak but there seem to be some nice spots like the room @ 13:05.

Give me a great Pro version and I'm in.
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Apparently this game has one of the best Pro support with 1080P/60FPS or 1080P+(dynamic 4k?)/30FPS for pro versus 1080P/30FPS for base.
 
Watching GB's Quicklook, the energy system seems interesting. I thought it was just "batter enemies to perform executions" but you also use that same energy to activate your drone or activate implants like the healing one. So you have to decide what you want to use built-up energy for in the midst of combat, whether it's implant skills, drone attacks, or executions
 
nynt9 said:
I mean you can go on, and I get that you really want aliens as enemies. That's not what they're going for. So I guess the game isn't for you. You want the game to be something else, and it's not. I mean, that doesn't mean your opinion is invalid, but it's a dead end line of thinking. Not much discussion to be had.
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I didn't intend to make a fucking Socratic dialogue out of it, I was simply stating my opinion in a message board, and would have been happy leaving at that. My opinion itself was misconstrued and criticised, so I clarified and defended it, which I'm still surprised I have to do. And now I'm also wrong for clarifying and defending my opinion? For fuck's sake.

I have better things to do than defending a simple observation for an entire thread, but I don't really want to to let continuous misrepresentation of what I said go on. For that matter you seem to not have read my posts if you think "I really want aliens", and even less if you think I'm even arguing that point itself now.

More_Badass said:
I wasn't trying to make the criticism invalid, I definitely agree in part. Trust me, I really wish the first sci-fi Soulslike was a crazy grotesque Giger/Thing/Blame-inspired concept; that's like a dream game for me

But rather I was discussing the angle of the critique, the notion of criticizing something based on what you want it to be rather than what it actually is.
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"I'm not trying to make your criticism invalid, except I am".

I am criticising it on what it is and clearly stated as much: a game with uninspired enemy designs. Unless you mean that I'm criticising it on what I want it to be because... I want it not to have uninspired enemy designs? :P To me the path of least resistance to interesting enemies in a sci-fi game is "aliens", but if you really want to have "robots", you definitely can do that too (and indeed Vanquish is a perfect example); but then make some more interesting robots than powerloader #9583 and drone #'09484984.

More_Badass said:
You say how sci-fi souls is such a rich concept but they decide to robots and an industrial setting when it could doing so much more, and the answer is simple: that's the story, setting, etc. of the game. I just see it as like asking why Terminator doesn't have aliens, or other questions along those lines
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Then it is literally impossible to criticise any creative decision ever, because "that's how it is". Bad Rats is how it its, the people who made it decided to make the game as it is, so you can't criticise any single element of it: that's what they were going for.

What's the point of a discussion forum then?

Also, you asked me why I didn't make the same criticism out of Vanquish or Binary Domain. I gave you three reasons and you completely ignored them. And now you do it again with Terminator? Seriously? Do you intend to exhaust every single work of fiction with robots in it, or only until I give up and you win via ad nauseam?

More_Badass said:
Although to be fair, I'm kind of glad they decided to go for the more grounded route. Mainly because that kind of crazy sci-fi Souls/Soulslike everyone would want really needs to be done right to capture the scope, scale, visuals. and tone, and I'm not sure I really trust Deck13 to be the ones to pull it off.
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So you're fine with the game being unambitious because you don't trust the devs to achieve any higher ambitions. That's... quite sad frankly, and worse than any criticism, but it's also your prerrogative, the same as it's my prerrogative to criticise that lack of ambition (and apparently giving the devs the benefit of the doubt?).

More_Badass said:
So I'll take this style of sci-fi Soulslike now and hope that inspires more devs to approach the subgenre from a sci-fi angle. One of the co-creators of The Expanse did some work for From, so we might not have to wait that long
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I on the other hand am happy completely skipping this, as I originally stated why. I was under the impression that should be enough, but apparently I'm wrong.

And I think this is as much as I'm willing to waste my time on this supremely nonsensical issue. Just please don't misrepresent my opinion yet again, for fuck's sake, I think I've been crystal clear already.
 
Finale Fireworker said:
Listening to it now at work. I have a very unusual nitpick.

Is it just me, or is this narrator heavily misusing/overusing the term "trash mobs"? I'm finding it extremely off-putting... At first I thought enemies must be literally made of refuse and space junk, but then I switched to the video tab and saw he just referred to every overworld enemy as "trash".

I know it's an odd thing to find so grating, especially since it's a small point in a long and educated analysis, but I'm finding it really irritating and reductive.

My own understanding of a "trash mob" is an enemy specifically placed to impede or distract the player from a larger more imminent threat. Common enemies spawned by bosses during battles, for example, would be trash mobs. Or enemies that die in one hit and pose more of a distraction than a challenge - these would be "trash mobs."

But this person's continuous use of the mere word "trash" seems inappropriate. He describing how overworld enemies are dangerous and complex characters that constitute the game's entire difficulty curve but referring to them constantly as trash. His language seems to directly contradict what he is trying to express. It also goes against the fact that Souls-style maps are populated with very powerful and surprising monsters that players must be cunning to defeat.

It reminds me of a thread we had once over whether or not a term like "savescumming" is derogatory because of the obvious negative connotation that implies the player's behavior is scummy. Constantly and unrelentingly referring to every enemy in the game as trash, not even trash mob - just trash - seems to be activating some overly defensive part in my brain that is making me angry for basically no reason at all. It's making him seem elitist and condescending even though, factually and objectively, the material is not.

Strange the impact language can have.
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I noticed this too, mainly when he made the point about his generalization that the main focus of Dark Souls is to: "go from boss to boss" which is a gross simplification and thus not true.

For anyone who's played the game, do the environments become more varied later on?
 
Theorry said:
This looks nothing like that at all. And i hated Lords of Fallen with how slow it was.
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Speeding up jank doesn't make it look better to me. Looks like LotF but faster, so still pretty bad. That game had such bad hitboxes it made Dark Souls 2 look like.... any other Dark Souls game!
 
pretty done said:
Speeding up jank doesn't make it look better to me. Looks like LotF but faster, so still pretty bad. That game had such bad hitboxes it made Dark Souls 2 look like.... any other Dark Souls game!
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And what are you basing this on? I.e. this game has bad hitboxes any examples? What exactly is this "jank" you are talking about? Care to elaborate ?

Considering has dismemberment I doubt it'll have bad hitboxes like that, they probably have invested more into proper hitboxes for this very gameplay feature than most other games including Souls.

There's also the fact that the enemies telegraph their attacks properly this time compared to LOTF and the animations is completely made from scratch and it's fast and responsive from the looks of it.
 
Developer can't catch a break. I see no jank. But that's what happens when you have a track record of sub par games, I guess. Hopefully this will be their breakthrough.
 
Played it for about 2 hours.

First of all, fantastic Pro support. Very smooth 60 fps with no input lag/frame pacing issues.

I'm enjoying it so far. I like the risk/reward added on how you acquire special scrap and equipment by targeting tougher armored limbs on enemies.

Combat feels very solid so far, and the level design is somewhat souls-like with opening shortcuts and finding secret areas.
 
I watched about an hour of a stream and the movement seemed awfully floaty. That lack of weight and connecting with the world has lowered my hype by a fair margin.
 
nOoblet16 said:
And what are you basing this on? I.e. this game has bad hitboxes any examples? What exactly is this "jank" you are talking about? Care to elaborate ?

Considering has dismemberment I doubt it'll have bad hitboxes like that, they probably have invested more into proper hitboxes for this very gameplay feature than most other games including Souls.

There's also the fact that the enemies telegraph their attacks properly this time compared to LOTF and the animations is completely made from scratch and it's fast and responsive from the looks of it.
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From the gameplay i have seen the combat looks like the same as in Lords of the fallen which was a horrible horrible game. Combat in that game at least felt like you were punching the thin air doing cool looking moves while the enemy hp bar was chipping down slowly, and then in turn your character in that game was so clunky to move around during combat that you got damaged quite easily and the damage mobs did in that game was insane. Dodging seems to actually work but the gameplay still doesn't look good to me. So i agree with the guy that this looks like lords of the fallen but faster.
 
Player nioh for almost 300 hours. I thought it was a better souls game than dark souls 1,2,3 from combat and loot/gear perspective. This doesn't look as good to me though. But at least combat looks more fluid than the clunky unresponsive mess that it Dark souls 1,2,3 (console version never played them on PC).
 
Lots of hands-on impressions, including that Dark Souls comparison vid, say the combat is way better than LotF and yet people who haven't played it say it like LotF. The Internet, man.
 
This looks interesting. I may pick it up in the future on a good sale. I want to finish DaS3 DLC first though, and then pick up Nioh.
 
Gunslinger said:
Player nioh for almost 300 hours. I thought it was a better souls game than dark souls 1,2,3 from combat and loot/gear perspective. This doesn't look as good to me though. But at least combat looks more fluid than the clunky unresponsive mess that it Dark souls 1,2,3 (console version never played them on PC).
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Some say this look clunky, others say dark souls was clunky, Lol.

I love dark souls and bloodborne and i cant see where you people are seing clunky in this game, lords of the fallen was a clubky game, this is totally diferent, people are judging this game with their mindset on previous works.

Im yet to see a preview of this game that dont praise the combat and fluid movement, gamers already burning this game are the responsable for many companies closing doors.
 
E-flux said:
From the gameplay i have seen the combat looks like the same as in Lords of the fallen which was a horrible horrible game. Combat in that game at least felt like you were punching the thin air doing cool looking moves while the enemy hp bar was chipping down slowly, and then in turn your character in that game was so clunky to move around during combat that you got damaged quite easily and the damage mobs did in that game was insane. Dodging seems to actually work but the gameplay still doesn't look good to me. So i agree with the guy that this looks like lords of the fallen but faster.
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But it's not the same.
Plus half of your complaint about LoTF is regarding speed and agility which you yourself admit is not the issue here. So what is it?

Also "horrible horrible game" ? Yes it was a mediocre game but isn't that a bit too much considering there are actual horrible games out there?
 
I hope the game will feel more tight than lord of the fallen, I just happened to give it a second chance today and I just couldn't do it. The hits feels weak, the movement is clunky and everything but snappy, backstabs are awkward, rolling iframes don't feel very good.
 
nOoblet16 said:
But it's not the same.
Plus half of your complaint about LoTF is regarding speed and agility which you yourself admit is not the issue here. So what is it?

Also "horrible horrible game" ? Yes it was a mediocre game but isn't that a bit too much considering there are actual horrible games out there?
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At least with those games you can have some fun with how bad they are, there are few games that i would never want to play again LotF is one of those few. I don't know if it's the animation style or what which instantly screamed Lords of the fallen or what, but as soon as i saw it my excitement just died. And if i would have already known that this was made by the same devs i probably wouldn't have commented at all, but since my excitement was soured so fast, i couldn't help myself.
 
Really looking forward to this, thought LotF was underrated and everything I hear about this sounds like a step up from that.

Judging from the responses in this (and every other) thread though I can see it's always going to be an uphill battle for these Devs :/
 
*Splinter said:
Really looking forward to this, thought LotF was underrated and everything I hear about this sounds like a step up from that.

Judging from the responses in this (and every other) thread though I can see it's always going to be an uphill battle for these Devs :/
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Yeah. This game will propably be pretty good and win them some goodwill for their next game.
 
More_Badass said:
Watching GB's Quicklook, the energy system seems interesting. I thought it was just "batter enemies to perform executions" but you also use that same energy to activate your drone or activate implants like the healing one. So you have to decide what you want to use built-up energy for in the midst of combat, whether it's implant skills, drone attacks, or executions
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Correct. One of the main core mechanics is stamina, health, energy bar management.
 
pretty done said:
Yep, looks like LotF. Another hard pass.
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Yep. Combat and movement looks like it has a.... floatiness, maybe? I'm not sure how to describe it but there was something about LotF that was just off in how it handled, at least compared to the Souls games. Not huge on the idea of trash mobs being difficult in favour of less bosses either.
 
*Splinter said:
Really looking forward to this, thought LotF was underrated and everything I hear about this sounds like a step up from that.

Judging from the responses in this (and every other) thread though I can see it's always going to be an uphill battle for these Devs :/
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If this game is overall good then that will probably go away abit. And if we get a good "sci fi souls" out of it. Win win for everybody.
 
At first when i saw it last year, i was curious. Seeing it today remind me that it will just be another forgetable Souls clone.
 
deltacanuckian said:
Yep. Combat and movement looks like it has a.... floatiness, maybe? I'm not sure how to describe it but there was something about LotF that was just off in how it handled, at least compared to the Souls games. Not huge on the idea of trash mobs being difficult in favour of less bosses either.
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I dunno, I've watched a ton of footage and I feel the animations have a good weight to them. I really enjoy the animations overall, particularly the enemy type that spots you from a distance and just run at you like madmen, it's great
 
SargerusBR said:
Only one of those movies doesn't have aliens, hence the comparison.
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The comparisons I've seen are focusing on aesthetics, not just enemy type. While the setting might be closer to Elysium, the protagonist and a few other enemies that I've seen also look like they were inspired from other films too.
 
Just saw a tip that said killing enemies increases the time you have to recover lost scrap off your body. Good to know.
 
I'm seeing a pattern:

People who have only watched footage:

"this looks janky, boring, floaty, weightless, etc"



People who are actually playing it:

"This is surprisingly good"
 
Samus4145 said:
I'm enjoying The Surge more than Nioh and any Souls games. To each their own.
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Then you probably don't like Souls games

Drewfonse said:
I'm seeing a pattern:

People who have only watched footage:

"this looks janky, boring, floaty, weightless, etc"



People who are actually playing it:

"This is surprisingly good"
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Maybe they should put out a demo then, considering this looks a lot like their last game, which was a gigantic piece of shit. How do you expect people to judge it any other way than watching footage?
 
Morrigan Stark said:
Wait what?
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http://www.ign.com/articles/2017/02/03/dark-souls-developers-have-worked-with-the-expanse-writer

pretty done said:
Then you probably don't like Souls games


Maybe they should put out a demo then, considering this looks a lot like their last game, which was a gigantic piece of shit. How do you expect people to judge it any other way than watching footage?
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That seems like a pretty ridiculous assertion to make

And personally, I'd tend to put more weight on the impressions of those who have actually played/watched/read something than those that haven't. Considering quite a few (ie Sterling, Giant Bomb) came away from their time with the game saying that it was at the very least decent, or even surprising, and a big improvement over LoTF
 
pretty done said:
Then you probably don't like Souls games


Maybe they should put out a demo then, considering this looks a lot like their last game, which was a gigantic piece of shit. How do you expect people to judge it any other way than watching footage?
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By listening to a generally unanimous chorus of people who are actually playing it. Or not. Whatever works.
 
More_Badass said:
http://www.ign.com/articles/2017/02/...expanse-writer
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Oh wow, I totally missed this news I guess. Cool, I'm rather intrigued now.

Orayn said:
Making judgments about someone else's tastes based on how they compare a game you haven't played to a game you have. Sounds informed and reasonable.
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Yeah, that's ridiculous. I say this as someone who isn't very interested in the game myself (mostly for the setting and art direction), if everyone who's tried the combat say it's good, arguing with them that "no it isn't, it's janky and bad" when you haven't played it is absurd.
 
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