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[Ozriel]

And the Forza devs and Candy Crush devs? Everything is struggling!

Forza Motorsport sold horribly on Xbox and Steam, and failed on GamePass. They've tried to provide significant post launch support but the market seems to have moved on

But you already knew this

It's you always warring and even have a tag for it.

Do you ever see me toeing your line and showing up in PS related threads with shitposts and downplay?

Must be some weird kind of warring when I'm posting in support of Ghost of Yotei and Intergalactic, as well as owning way more PS devices than the average GAF member.

What's funny is that last year I said MS studios cannot deliver anything on time because xbox management is shit and they have no incentive for studios to deliver on time and you were there saying the opposite.

I'd certainly be skeptical at claims that there's no incentive for timely delivery.
We certainly see - with these layoffs - that MS management implements consequences for strong underperformance.

Defending MS and pretending everything is going swimmingly. You defend them and bring up excuses no matter the circumstance.

I consistently provide criticism when it's deserved. Across multiple posts, too.

King(including Candy Crush) probably made ~$1B profit FY25... all to fund failing GamePass?
They were not struggling.

And reports out there seems to indicate this was more about cost-cutting and staff rationalization

Around 200 jobs to be cut at King, says Bloomberg

UPDATE: 96 jobs are gone in Stockholm and 30 in Barcelona, we’re told. The other 70 are believed to be split across London, Berlin and remote workers. Middle management, UX and narrative were…

mobilegamer.biz

[UPDATE: One person close to the company has told us that 96 staff have been cut in Stockholm and 30 in Barcelona. The other 70 or so roles being eliminated are expected to be a combination of King's London, Berlin and remote workers. The entire narrative and UX writing teams have also been let go, and lots of people at risk are in "middle management roles with very few direct reports".

"It's a very bloated and slow org so it's not a surprise that they would cut from there," our source said of the cuts to middle management.

They added: "It's also been handled very poorly from what I hear from those on the ground."]

Hard to tie any of this to 'GamePass', isn't it?

 

[Bernardougf]

Can you explain why Sonys playstation titles are selling less than their previous iterations then?

We are often told how Playstation fans buy games, but they are not buying games. Death Stranding 2 is the latest game to suffer significant drops vs the first and i will place a bet that Yotei sells less that Tsushima. Do you think that is sustainable as budgets increase massively vs the PS4 gen?

How many shitty sequels one have to put out to finally people wake up ? None of their recent sequels had very good reception by fans like the original games, including the last of us 2, people care less and less for high scores from the access/woke media, Sony has clearly gone the DEI/woke path and it shows in their output, most of their sequels looks like safe minimal effort endeavors sprinkled with dei/woke notes.

Death Stranding is easy.. that game is niche as fuck .. a lot of people (including me) bought the first one because of Kojima and didnt like one bit of that game. Naturally a direct sequel would have sold less. Even if in this case its a better game than the first.

 

[Hero of Spielberg]

That's a separate issue. $80+ billion spent on acquisitions finally got the accountants taking a hard look at Xbox division, expecting profitable returns form the money spent.

So due to shit management games got canned, devs fired, etc…. Also, by most reports the MMO by ESO was not in trouble but in a pretty good state.

So the accountants that want a return cancel the games which look amazing and would give a return? Including the games from studios they recently acquired?

And they didn't want the revenue from an amazing MMO that was in a pretty good state, according to who?

 

[PropellerEar]

Hard to tie any of this to 'GamePass', isn't it?

What are you on, I wrote couple of words and did just that.
Not hard at all.

 

[Bernardougf]

Its going to be wild to see this narrative of gamepass killing the industry, to see gamepass go away and then them find the next thing to blame for killing the industry.

Fortnite or whatever.

Or they will just blame us for not buying EVERY big title release when there's just too many for any normal person to play.

Gamepass its not killing the industry.. it would have killed if MS got out with its plans ... it just killed xbox (in part + other factors)

 

[alabtrosMyster]

Feels like everyone is out for blood on MS lately. This news has gone on longer than I thought it would. I figured after a week people would let it go. Dukes had another podcast discussing all of it again. Matty got rid of GP and wont use it anymore.

They broke our ears about it for over 10 years, in gaming giant failures are talked about for decades.

- People still make videos that analyse the 32x failure
- Atari Jaguar and the video games crash of the 80s
- all the failed consoles

MS has bought gaming media coverage, companies, created a giant PR campaign, paid (or not) shills on gaming forums and social media, bought an award for Phil Spencer, general manipulative statements, etc.

There is too much spice in there, you will never ear the end of it. They're part of the problem with gaming, and they took the place of a potential worthy adversary to Sony, one which might have grown the market.

 

[neocycle]

Phil Spencer, weeks ago: "I recognize that these changes come at a time when we have more players, games, and gaming hours than ever before. Our platform, hardware, and game roadmap have never looked stronger."

Why is he so optimistic? Is everyone wrong about xbox? I know xbox consoles haven't been selling well for years. Does he really think a pc is an xbox?

 

[jm89]

Microsoft can't accept the reality they are not going to decide where gaming goes. Sorry this isn't enterprise world where you have a stranglehold on.

All their moves to make their platforms bigger this gen have been desperate, too bad they have ended up as wet farts.

 

[Three]

Forza Motorsport sold horribly on Xbox and Steam, and failed on GamePass. They've tried to provide significant post launch support but the market seems to have moved on

But you already knew this

They delivered late and they delivered a buggy unready game. you were there suggesting Turn 10 were as efficient as ever. The market hasn't moved on from racing sims since others are doing well, they moved on from Forza because forza took an 8 year hiatus then under-delivered. This was a studio issue but you was downplaying what I was telling you

And reports out there seems to indicate this was more about cost-cutting and staff rationalization

Around 200 jobs to be cut at King, says Bloomberg

UPDATE: 96 jobs are gone in Stockholm and 30 in Barcelona, we’re told. The other 70 are believed to be split across London, Berlin and remote workers. Middle management, UX and narrative were…

mobilegamer.biz

Hard to tie any of this to 'GamePass', isn't it?

The entire thing is cost cutting because Amy hood has an objective of trying to hit a certain margin for the MS gaming division. Margins GP did not help when it failed to meet its projections for subscribers. It isn't some punishment for not delivering on time though, all these studios were targeted in a cost cutting measure, some more than others because they had high costs with little potential for profit in the short term.

 

[DerivedDataCache]

They bought publishers for their console business and to feed gamepass. Ended up killing them in the process but now they are the biggest third party publisher as a side effect.
Not what they intended but ironic non the less.

 

[Windle Poons]

I love(d) Forza Motorsport. The latest one was shit. The market didn't move on - it just didn't want to play it.

Post launch yeah tried to fix it - which makes me think it shouldn't have been released when it first was in that case.

The single player (which is my meat and veg) sent me to sleep.

 

[adamsapple]

Why don't you just link the video. Wasn't Project Kestrel a Remedy project that got canned last year?

Kestrel was in the Bethesda docs that were leaked. Remedy coincidentally also happened to have a project by that name.

FHard to tie any of this to 'GamePass', isn't it?

By god they're gonna try their best.

 

[Felessan]

GAAS trash is hurting the industry

Unlike gamepass, which is one company initiative and subsidized, GaaS is a market demand. And it's win is solely on market principles - people like mix of gameplay and social more than just gameplay.
GaaS grew from demand and big ones followed, not the other way around.
And GP tried to undercut the rest of the market and thankfully failed.

 

[DenchDeckard]

I know you know this already but even on PS the vast majority only care about buying their sports titles and COD every year

Absolutely! - It's a shame.

Eventually the zombies would have to wake up to reality. Its the "why should I care?" Mentality some have.... well you should care because eventually, instead of paying low, you will have nothing to pay for.

I am in the camp of happily paying and enjoying gamepass. Do you feel games will go the way of the dodo before gamepass does? If gamepass goes away, those, like myself who pay and enjoy the service will just stop gaming, completely?

I know I wont, I already spend 100s of pounds a year on buying games and Gamepass is an excellent supplement for me.

 

[Ozriel]

Unlike gamepass, which is one company initiative and subsidized, GaaS is a market demand. And it's win is solely on market principles - people like mix of gameplay and social more than just gameplay.
GaaS grew from demand and big ones followed, not the other way around.
And GP tried to undercut the rest of the market and thankfully failed.

But many big GaaS games are a significant driver for games being 'devalued' by many here.

Concord reveal thread? Tons of comments demanding the game be free.

Marathon beta thread? Comments saying Bungie shouldn't charge for the game.

And GP tried to undercut the rest of the market and thankfully failed.

Not sure how GP was trying to undercut the market on PlayStation and Steam, but OK.

 

[Xbox 360 slim]

It has turned the vast majority of Xbox diehards into cheapasses that don't think current gen AAA games are worth more than $15.

They don't support devs and in turn are causing the death of healthy sales...which lead to studio closures. Yes, Gamepass is bad for the industry simply because of how it devalues games.

They aren't wrong.

 

[Baemono]

Why is he so optimistic? Is everyone wrong about xbox? I know xbox consoles haven't been selling well for years. Does he really think a pc is an xbox?

Self-persuasion. Like "next year will be the year", or "the future is brighter than ever". And I believe that's the main (even only) issue with Xbox management: they keep doing the worse and they praising all their bad decisions.

Xbox enthusiasts like to point out Concord but almost every Sony fan was like "this is a pile of garbage, we all hope it dies quickly", and it did. And Sony was like "okay Herman go back being assistant to the CEO".

 

[Felessan]

But many big GaaS games are a significant driver for games being 'devalued' by many here.

In current environment it has little sense for GaaS game not to be free, so many who have a little clue how live service games landscape looks like raising concerns.

Personally I too think that asking money for Concord/Marathon is unwise decision for two reasons:
- f2p games are much more popular and on the same level quality-popularity have roughly 10 time more players
- paid live services are not excluded from ps+/Xbox live requirements that make them on consoles even more expensive subscribe2play games, further limiting playerbase.
It's a quick money grab and "safer" money but it hurt game future as players are live service games life and blood and game scales with player non-lineary. The more players game has, the more it's known, talked and interacted socially (and social is a huge part in these games). Grow big enough and game will be social phenomenon like Fortnite or Genshin and at this point you are pretty much settled at huge profits.

 

[POKEYCLYDE]

Why don't you just link the video. Wasn't Project Kestrel a Remedy project that got canned last year?

Video was about rumored Bethesda titles. Not entirely relevant, but this:

... is what was in the video.

And Project Kestrel is the Zenimax MMO:

 

[Fess]

Eventually the zombies would have to wake up to reality. Its the "why should I care?" Mentality some have.... well you should care because eventually, instead of paying low, you will have nothing to pay for.

No I've never been more awake. How about you? Do you seriously think the whole gaming industry will crumble into nothing because a relatively small group of gamers use a service for a relatively small platform/storefront to get games cheaper?

There is no Gamepass on PlayStation, not on Switch, not on Switch 2, not on Steam, not on mobile. It's literally just Xbox and Microsoft Store on PC. And Xbox is crumbling and Xbox App won't likely challenge Steam for real. Cloud exist too but it's nothing.

How many gamers are there in total world wide? No googling, I'm gonna guess a couple hundred million on just console and PC, maybe a billion total when including mobile.

Gamepass is like a bucket in a sea.

The reality is that it makes no sense to be legit concerned for the whole industry as a regular gamer. First, it's not our thing to worry about. Secondly, the whole industry ain't crumbling.

The perfectly normally thing is to jump on every cheap deal there is.

Like this :
- OMG this game is 80% off today! Cool let's buy it!
- Pro tip this game is free on Epic now! Get it!
- Awesome this game was shadow dropped on Gamepass now! Go try it!

Not like this :
- Nah I can't buy this when it's this cheap, the devs need more money, I'll buy it full price instead…
- Free on Epic? But… What about the devs? How will they afford to make more games? Nope! Buying for $70!
- Nope I ain't subbing to Gamepass anymore! Will cancel asap! Gotta save the industry and pay $70 instead!

If you can't access Gamepass, if you have no PC or Xbox. Then fine, negativity is a normal reaction, childish but normal - means it's all about an exclusivity you can't get. Tough luck. Just get a PC or Xbox or use cloud.

But this thing of cancelling a sub when you have access to it, or saying it shouldn't be around, just to save the industry. That's not normal, like at all.
- This thing is too great and it's too cheap so it must go away!!1

Besides, Microsoft now sell their games for $70 on PC, PlayStation, Xbox day 1. So if you - want to save the industry - you now have more options than ever to do that. Purchase button is right there on several stores, just go click on it. I'll keep clicking on the install button instead whenever possible.

 

[Bernardougf]

Absolutely! - It's a shame.

I am in the camp of happily paying and enjoying gamepass. Do you feel games will go the way of the dodo before gamepass does? If gamepass goes away, those, like myself who pay and enjoy the service will just stop gaming, completely?

I know I wont, I already spend 100s of pounds a year on buying games and Gamepass is an excellent supplement for me.

Na... it already happen.. xbox is going the way of the dodo.. not gaming.

 

[Bernardougf]

No I've never been more awake. How about you? Do you seriously think the whole gaming industry will crumble into nothing because a relatively small group of gamers use a service for a relatively small platform/storefront to get games cheaper?

There is no Gamepass on PlayStation, not on Switch, not on Switch 2, not on Steam, not on mobile. It's literally just Xbox and Microsoft Store on PC. And Xbox is crumbling and Xbox App won't likely challenge Steam for real. Cloud exist too but it's nothing.

How many gamers are there in total world wide? No googling, I'm gonna guess a couple hundred million on just console and PC, maybe a billion total when including mobile.

Gamepass is like a bucket in a sea.

The reality is that it makes no sense to be legit concerned for the whole industry as a regular gamer. First, it's not our thing to worry about. Secondly, the whole industry ain't crumbling.

The perfectly normally thing is to jump on every cheap deal there is.

Like this :
- OMG this game is 80% off today! Cool let's buy it!
- Pro tip this game is free on Epic now! Get it!
- Awesome this game was shadow dropped on Gamepass now! Go try it!

Not like this :
- Nah I can't buy this when it's this cheap, the devs need more money, I'll buy it full price instead…
- Free on Epic? But… What about the devs? How will they afford to make more games? Nope! Buying for $70!
- Nope I ain't subbing to Gamepass anymore! Will cancel asap! Gotta save the industry and pay $70 instead!

If you can't access Gamepass, if you have no PC or Xbox. Then fine, negativity is a normal reaction, childish but normal - means it's all about an exclusivity you can't get. Tough luck. Just get a PC or Xbox or use cloud.

But this thing of cancelling a sub when you have access to it, or saying it shouldn't be around, just to save the industry. That's not normal, like at all.
- This thing is too great and it's too cheap so it must go away!!1

Besides, Microsoft now sell their games for $70 on PC, PlayStation, Xbox day 1. So if you - want to save the industry - you now have more options than ever to do that. Purchase button is right there on several stores, just go click on it. I'll keep clicking on the install button instead whenever possible.

This is not about gaming as a whole.. its about xbox

 

[Fess]

This is not about gaming as a whole.. its about xbox

So what's the concern then? I bet half the people moaning here don't even like Xbox. Are they concerned for the Xbox users possibly grim future? That's nice and all but save your pity for something real. I haven't seen many who're already invested in the Xbox ecosystem complain. If it makes you sleep better click buy instead of install. Or let the suits worry about the future and be glad that you have access to a steady stream of games day 1 without opening the wallet.

Edit oh and now I'm getting the demigod laugh emoji, how surprising, surely some real concern for Xbox demise here lmao

 

[Gambit2483]

Can you explain why Sonys playstation titles are selling less than their previous iterations then?

We are often told how Playstation fans buy games, but they are not buying games. Death Stranding 2 is the latest game to suffer significant drops vs the first and i will place a bet that Yotei sells less that Tsushima. Do you think that is sustainable as budgets increase massively vs the PS4 gen?

DS2 is a sequel to a highly polarizing, extremely story-centric game. Some gamers may wait to buy the game until they finish the first story of the 1st game, or some gamers maybe did not click with the gameplay of the 1st game and don't want more of that.

That said, The game still sold extremely well, better than most exclusives, by far, on Xbox. Unless we know the exact budgets and sales of these games there's no way to know for sure how profitable they are, but something tells me GoY's budget was not that much higher than the first game.

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

The boat your are on is the industry. Gamepass is sinking it. MS' plan is clear. They want to sink everything, ride it out and take what's left. Let it go. Companies are not your friends and you usually should not be helping them accomplish their evil goals just because they gave you a coupon.

How exactly is GamePass sinking the industry

It's weird on GAF how you'll read in one thread that MS is irrelevant and GamePass a failure but then in another thread the same people are worried GamePass will ruin the industry.

Games take forever to make and are mostly the same slop. Indie and AA games are where the real action is and we as gamers do a great job at devaluing them ourselves, no help needed.

If publishers are coming to MS for a GamePass deal, there's a reason.

 

[Karim]

How exactly is GamePass sinking the industry

It's weird on GAF how you'll read in one thread that MS is irrelevant and GamePass a failure but then in another thread the same people are worried GamePass will ruin the industry.

Games take forever to make and are mostly the same slop. Indie and AA games are where the real action is and we as gamers do a great job at devaluing them ourselves, no help needed.

If publishers are coming to MS for a GamePass deal, there's a reason.

 

[demigod]

Xbox enthusiasts like to point out Concord but almost every Sony fan was like "this is a pile of garbage, we all hope it dies quickly", and it did. And Sony was like "okay Herman go back being assistant to the CEO".

This is what separates sony fans from xbox fans. We don't praise slops like Redfall, Hellblade 2, Avowed, South of Midnight.

 

[DenchDeckard]

Na... it already happen.. xbox is going the way of the dodo.. not gaming.

Ahhh good. I get you, and agree. I thought there was a concern that xbox might kill gaming with gamepass.

DS2 is a sequel to a highly polarizing, extremely story-cenric game. Some gamers may wait to buy the game until they finish the first story of the 1st game, or some gamers maybe did not click with the gameplay of the 1st game and don't want more of that.

That said, The game still sold extremely well, better than most exclusives, by far, on Xbox. Unless we know the exact budgets and sales of these games there's no way to know for sure how profitable they are, but something tells me GoY's budget was not that much higher than the first game.

I get this. It seems all the recent sequels have sold considerably less than their original games which is concerning.

 

[Bernardougf]

So what's the concern then? I bet half the people moaning here don't even like Xbox. Are they concerned for the Xbox users possibly grim future? That's nice and all but save your pity for something real. I haven't seen many who're already invested in the Xbox ecosystem complain. If it makes you sleep better click buy instead of install. Or let the suits worry about the future and be glad that you have access to a steady stream of games day 1 without opening the wallet.

Edit oh and now I'm getting the demigod laugh emoji, how surprising, surely some real concern for Xbox demise here lmao

You gonna be ok ?

 

[djjinx2]

You gonna be ok ?

Good to see so much "concern"

 

[Romulus]

It works better in this climate than Sony's offerings. Playstation was all about exclusives and both are nothing but multiplatform boxes at this point so a system with gamepass is simply superior. I don't buy that tons of exclusives are going to magically show up at this point. I think sony will have a few but they've proven hardware sales are fine without them.

 

[Gambit2483]

Ahhh good. I get you, and agree. I thought there was a concern that xbox might kill gaming with gamepass.

I get this. It seems all the recent sequels have sold considerably less than their original games which is concerning.

That's nothing new though. For story-centric games (especially direct sequels) there seems to almost always be a drop off in the sales from the previous games. Studios just need to find a way to keep their budgets and sales expectations in check.

 

[EN250]

Unlike gamepass, which is one company initiative and subsidized, GaaS is a market demand. And it's win is solely on market principles - people like mix of gameplay and social more than just gameplay.
GaaS grew from demand and big ones followed, not the other way around.
And GP tried to undercut the rest of the market and thankfully failed.

GAAS is unsustainable, you'll see less and less "bigger" games and everything will stagnate, devs will fold or go down in flames chasing the golden goose of this gen, like devs fallen chasing the Hero Shooter genre a gen ago, the FPS dude-bro genre 2 gens ago and the mascot platformer before that

I don't care either way, I know Capcom will be milking the REmakes like hell and I'll keep buying them, R* will be milking GTAVI and I'll support it because they're the only ones capable to create a sandbox and fill it with stuff that's engaging to do and not some copy/pasted list of tasks to pad the lenght of a game, Sony will still try to get another Helldivers 2 success story and fail misserably in the process, but as long as some of their devs keep working on their strenghts and deliver, case Housemarque/Santa Monica or Poliphony I'll get something to play, Square is done so whatever, I'll take what's left that's good and same with the others

But this idea that GAAS games can live together without undercutting each other is so wrong on so many levels, Warzone, Fortnite and GTAO will be kings of the ashes when this retarded live service fad is done for

 

[mckmas8808]

I get this. It seems all the recent sequels have sold considerably less than their original games which is concerning.

Tears of the Kingdom sold 36% less than Breath of the Wild also. How many people found that concerning?

 

[Fess]

You gonna be ok ?

Me? I haven't bought a game on Xbox since XB1 gen and I've paid the equivalent of $5/month for 6 years of Gamepass. I'm doing fine. If Xbox go poof then no big deal. I trust that the devs will start up again and won't just start working on MacDonalds instead. As said I've seen brands come and go in the past. I'm still here gaming.

Those more invested in Xbox might struggle more with what's going on, but as said I don't see any real fans (besides maybe shill Parris) complain about getting cheap games on Gamepass. What I mostly see in these discussions are fans of other platforms concerned for the industry, and even concerned for Xbox now which is hilarious of course lol

 

[Bernardougf]

Me? I haven't bought a game on Xbox since XB1 gen and I've paid the equivalent of $5/month for 6 years of Gamepass. I'm doing fine. If Xbox go poof then no big deal. I trust that the devs will start up again and won't just start working on MacDonalds instead. As said I've seen brands come and go in the past. I'm still here gaming.

Those more invested in Xbox might struggle more with what's going on, but as said I don't see any real fans (besides maybe shill Parris) complain about getting cheap games on Gamepass. What I mostly see in these discussions are fans of other platforms concerned for the industry, and even concerned for Xbox now which is hilarious of course lol

Good as long as you ok bruh

 

[Felessan]

GAAS is unsustainable, you'll see less and less "bigger" games and everything will stagnate, devs will fold or go down in flames chasing the golden goose of this gen, like devs fallen chasing the Hero Shooter genre a gen ago, the FPS dude-bro genre 2 gens ago and the mascot platformer before that

We saw more successful live service games in 2024 than any year prior
People like to quote the some stuff about "limited market blablabla" that they just copy-paste without investigate (they like narrative, it's enough for them) - but live service games also adapt and make way for competition. More games coming in and more games differentiate themselves enough to have their market share.

But this idea that GAAS games can live together without undercutting each other is so wrong on so many levels, Warzone, Fortnite and GTAO will be kings of the ashes when this retarded live service fad is done for

Add HD2, Marvel Rivals and huge number of gacha games (along with old-timers like lol/dota, cs, mmo etc) into the list.

 

[drganon]

Ahhh good. I get you, and agree. I thought there was a concern that xbox might kill gaming with gamepass.

I get this. It seems all the recent sequels have sold considerably less than their original games which is concerning.

It seems that way since despite what you've said, you're still a green rat.

 

[Yoda]

These two contradict each other. In order for MS not to not give up on GP, they will need to be the largest provider of its content. Third Parties will only put their AAA games day one in that service if MS is willing to pay...and at 80$, they will need to pay even more.

So, this is why killing studios is completely opposite to the Game Pass idea. In fact, killing studios means Microsoft is giving up on Game Pass. People don't realize it, but Game Pass is already dead

I think I agree that it's not a good idea for them to cut studios at this point, they clearly think otherwise. Given their insane spending spree, I don't see gamepass being shutdown anytime soon even with slow sub growth. Eventually it'll no longer be a strategic priority for the company (maybe we crossed this line already) and they'll slowly start milking it as hard as they can, but shutting it down outright would happen years after that.