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The UK pays back debt from 1720

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TCRS

Banned
That Debt From 1720? Britain’s Payment Is Coming

LONDON — Share prices went through the roof, speculation ran wild and money poured into ill-fated ventures before the boom turned, inevitably and catastrophically, to bust.

After that financial crash in 1720, called the South Sea Bubble, the British government was forced to undertake a bailout that eventually left several million pounds of debt on its books. Almost three centuries later, Britons are still paying interest on a small part of that obligation.

Now, prompted by record low interest rates, the British government is planning to pay off some of the debts it racked up over hundreds of years, dating as far back as the South Sea Bubble.


George Osborne, the chancellor of the Exchequer, said this month that in 2015 Britain would repay part of the country’s debt from World War I, and that he wanted to pay off other bonds for debt incurred in the 18th and 19th centuries.

That includes borrowing that may have been used to compensate slave owners when slavery was abolished, to relieve the famine in 19th-century Ireland
and to bail out the infamous South Sea Company, which caused the bubble in 1720. (...)

But the maneuver is also a reminder of how debts incurred by governments are passed down through generations.

In many cases, the underlying debt has already been refinanced, sometimes multiple times, since being incurred. The bonds paying interest on the debt have been bought and sold and passed down through generations, still paying interest indefinitely, until the government decides to pay them off. So old are some of the bonds that closing the books on them may require an act of Parliament in some cases. (...)

Reissuing bonds was a big administrative endeavor in earlier eras. In 1932, the conversion of an earlier war loan to one paying lower interest required so many temporary clerks that 700 lambs were prepared to feed them one evening, according to a history of Britain’s debt by Jeremy Wormell. Now, in the computer age, the task is relatively straightforward, officials say.

Within a total debt of around £1.4 trillion, the historic liability accounts for a small portion — about £2.5 billion, or less than two-tenths of 1 percent of the total outstanding. (...)

The recent eurozone debt crisis is creating a similar legacy in countries that took bailout loans. Ireland is not scheduled to make its final repayment to international creditors until 2042. Greece is scheduled to do the same in 2054.

Britain’s current stock of open-ended historical debts does not include international loans but is made up of a variety of bonds known as gilts, a name that comes from the original British government certificates that had gilded edges.

Of course, much of the original debt has been eroded by inflation. According to research for the British Parliament, prices rose by around 118 times from 1750 to 1998.

full article: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/28/world/that-debt-from-1720-britains-payment-is-coming.html?_r=0

moral of the story: invest in gilts if you want long term security. it will be paid back eventually. (disclaimer: Im not a financial adviser, I have actually no idea.)
 
Fucking waste. Let's severely cut down the welfare state just so we can pay back debts that no one cares about any longer. Fucking clowns. The low interest rates should be used to make long-term investments in infrastructure and energy. The Tories are useless.

Unless the plan all along was to cut down the welfare state and the whole fiscal crisis stuff was just a sham so that no one would object to what you were doing to the welfare state. In that case, job fucking well done, asshats.
 

dalin80

Banned
Fucking waste. Let's severely cut down the welfare state just so we can pay back debts that no one cares about any longer. Fucking clowns. The low interest rates should be used to make long-term investments in infrastructure and energy. The Tories are useless.

Unless the plan all along was to cut down the welfare state and the whole fiscal crisis stuff was just a sham so that no one would object to what you were doing to the welfare state. In that case, job fucking well done, asshats.

They haven't cut enough of the welfare state, with everything being 'ring-fenced' to keep the Libs happy the UK will never recover financially.

And paying off debts is a good thing, rejecting them is not good for international reputation and would only give the UK a shittier deal on any future borrowing.
 
I was under the impression this was announced in october, and mostly because all of these debts were tied up in a WW1 War Bond. That was no longer economically feasible (Paid out more than interest) and was an easy good story for the gov't (100 year anniversary, etc).

This isn't really a "They're selling our NHS to pay this debt thing", It's just a routine debt restructure that they publicised because of the particular WW1 focus of 2014.
 
They haven't cut enough of the welfare state, with everything being 'ring-fenced' to keep the Libs happy the UK will never recover financially.

And paying off debts is a good thing, rejecting them is not good for international reputation and would only give the UK a shittier deal on any future borrowing.

Austerity works, eh?
 

Maledict

Member
They haven't cut enough of the welfare state, with everything being 'ring-fenced' to keep the Libs happy the UK will never recover financially.

And paying off debts is a good thing, rejecting them is not good for international reputation and would only give the UK a shittier deal on any future borrowing.

You think it's the libs that have prevented them from touching the NHS and state pensions, the two biggest areas of the welfare state that need reform?

Sorry, but I have some land in Florida to sell you.

The Tories are the *least* likely party to actually tackle the two biggest areas of the deficit. They can't touch pensions because their voting base is far older than the other parties, and they can't touch the NHS because of their reputation with it. Where the NHS is concerned it really needs a "Nixon goes to china" moment - only Labour are able to address the fundamental concerns because they have the political cover to do so.

It's nothing at all to do with the libs, and everything to do with a government that's only focussed on getting back into power rather than addressing the issues.
 

robochimp

Member
But the maneuver is also a reminder of how debts incurred by governments are passed down through generations.

Just as the debt is "passed down" so is the money placed into an economy. It's silly that we call a government managing its economy, debt.
 

ShutEye

Member
Its as if debts held in one's own sovereign currency don't actually severely impact the ability of a country to continue to function. Man, that South Sea Bailout really prevented the United Kingdom from becoming a relatively prosperous first world country over the course of 300 years.

The Debt is Bad crowd really needs to re-examine the fact that sovereign debt isn't always bad. Many types of investments including short-run macroeconomic stability are often both preferable and more profitable than simply reducing interest payments.
 

ShutEye

Member
Spending what we don't have clearly doesn't.

It can. People do it all the time. They borrow to buy houses, to increase their human capital through education and to start companies. It quite often works out just fine.

Amazingly, countries can do it too. They can invest in goods and services that increase human and physical capital, improving the welfare of citizens and reducing the likelihood of devastating personal loss by accident or health-related bad luck.

The UK has been borrowing against future returns for the duration of the recovery. That borrowing allowed it to continue to provide services that will provide future benefit and indeed future revenue. Things like health insurance and especially education. Again, that borrowing, instead of ending in a death spiral, has helped the UK to gradually recover from a clusterfuck of a recession, but providing people with both work and services and by continuing to allow the UK to invest in future.

But please, continue to ignore reality and insist that sovereign debt is somehow incredibly constrained in its ability to provide public goods in all contexts, that it always results in bankruptcy and that somehow that interest payment from the 1700's has turned the UK into a third-world backwater.
 
For reference, here's a much less hysterical Guardian article that goes into a little bit of the economical picture behind these bonds.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/oct/31/uk-first-world-war-bonds-redeemed

The NYT article seems to paint the picture that is is sovereign debt between nations (i.e something that the UK has to pay in order to fulfil international obligations), but these really are just bonds that have mostly been paid over multiple times but exist as a relic of a time when government debt could be bought by individuals.
 
So as I understand: interest rates are low now. So they borrow some new money, use it to pay off old debt and in the future pay lower interest. This is just common sense to do right, why should anyone be upset about this?
 
my reaction to the financial word noises

fT9noGs.gif
 
So you will never take out a mortgage then, since you'd be spending what you don't have?

People don't understand how borrowing money works, especially on a national level. Britain's understanding of the national debt (and the Dutch too) inarguably allowed them to deal some serious blow to a wealthier France. But whatever... Debt is bad and stuff.
 

Prine

Banned

.

As much as people like to complain about Osborne and Tories financial strategy I can and have seen the results of their policies, I know people coming out of uni and are now finding jobs, all my friend are now working and banks are lending more readily then before....the country as a whole is doing well compared to our European neighbours, I can't hate on them, they may have actually turned me away from Labour to Tory ...I can't believe I've reached this point.
 

Ether_Snake

安安安安安安安安安安安安安安安
If you paid the original loan many times over in interests, it should always be cancelled.
 
The whole system of bonds and interests is one huge scam by the elites to protect themselves.

I think it's awesome to have an alternative asset that's liquid and safe. Why should the public have to pull their hair out constantly over bank risk? I'm glad that some people have consistently taken advantage of the opportunity over the years.
 

Danj

Member
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As much as people like to complain about Osborne and Tories financial strategy I can and have seen the results of their policies, I know people coming out of uni and are now finding jobs, all my friend are now working and banks are lending more readily then before....the country as a whole is doing well compared to our European neighbours, I can't hate on them, they may have actually turned me away from Labour to Tory ...I can't believe I've reached this point.

I'm still pissed about the whole tuition fees thing from back in the Nineties. That's what turned me away from voting Labour or Tory because the bastards are exactly the same.

EDIT: on issues that I actually care about/that affect me.
 

pulsemyne

Member
.

As much as people like to complain about Osborne and Tories financial strategy I can and have seen the results of their policies, I know people coming out of uni and are now finding jobs, all my friend are now working and banks are lending more readily then before....the country as a whole is doing well compared to our European neighbours, I can't hate on them, they may have actually turned me away from Labour to Tory ...I can't believe I've reached this point.

Your going mad if you think the economies on the right track. The tories always do this, build a massive housing bubble before an election so it looks good and then watches as it implodes a year into a new term. The current housing bubble is going to crash and burn in spectacular fashion. So far this government has borrowed more money in 5 years than labour did in 13 (and that included the bank bail out). The gap between rich and poor has also increased.
Also if you are going to vote for someone then don't do it on just one issue. Do you want the creeping privitisation of the NHS? Do you want to see the poorer become poorer due to benefits cuts? Do you want a return to fox hunting? Do you want us out of europe? (and abysmally stupid idea economically speaking). If the answer is no then how could you vote tory?
Labour may not be great but, lets face it, the may just be marginally less cuntish than the tories.
 

pulsemyne

Member
I'm still pissed about the whole tuition fees thing from back in the Nineties. That's what turned me away from voting Labour or Tory because the bastards are exactly the same.

EDIT: on issues that I actually care about/that affect me.

Two words. Minimum Wage.
 
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