Many Remainers are against a second referendum too, with Corbyn (who admittedly might not be leader of the Labour party for long) also saying the vote must be recognised; this is not necessarily (or even solely) a movement to the right to capture lost voters, but a recognition that one of the best ways to stoke extremism even further would be to tell the most disaffected members of the populace that their one vote expressing their dissatisfaction will be ignored!
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The UK votes to leave the European Union |OUT2| Mayday, Mayday, I've lost an ARM
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Many Remainers are against a second referendum too, with Corbyn (who admittedly might not be leader of the Labour party for long) also saying the vote must be recognised; this is not necessarily (or even solely) a movement to the right to capture lost voters, but a recognition that one of the best ways to stoke extremism even further would be to tell the most disaffected members of the populace that their one vote expressing their dissatisfaction will be ignored!
Yeah ignoring the vote might be even more damaging to the UK, than actually leaving the EU, which is saying something, at this point really the best option for the UK is to have a scapegoat to not leave the EU, like the queen, since it would keep the political side intact without fueling too much the extremists, but ofc that isn't going to happen.
Exactly.
While it's pointless to do anything at the moment because we effectively have no government, nor any sort of organised opposition, the eventual aim should not be a second referendum but a nullification of the first.
Whether this nullification is political (ideally through a GE, or simply by having sensible politicians ignore the result) or legal (I'd have to imagine cases are being planned on various human rights grounds, I'd expect some sort of judicial review), it's not going to come until the Tories and Labour have sorted themselves out.
The only scapegoat is the country going to shit before they push the button. Right now, little is happening so it's bit eye of the storm and it feeds the leave voters. May could be playing the leave camp for fools to get into office then refuses to go through with article 50 as the economy goes down the pan, think that's our only hope.
The European Council is nothing else than the cooperation of the leaders of the countries. There is no need for its own elected officials, as that is the role of the European Parliament and its Commission. It is also hypocrytical to use the European Council as a front for unpopular decisions, as this almost always requires unanimous votes. You are blaming Europe for the cowardly politicians in certain countries. It is also pointless as the majority of European laws pass through the European and national parliaments which are elected. It is also important to stress that taking unpopular decisions is a good thing. It is way better than taking popular decisions that are bad for a population.
Yet it is the European Union that has proven to be the only blocking factor for corporations dominating countries. This is proven by the statements in Great Britain where there is now already a push against worker's rights, human rights and the likes.
The leftist that stresses this characterization is an idiot. Especially considering the huge footprint the leftist political parties have in this organization. The leftist parties Progressive Alliance of Socialists and Democrats and Greens-EFA together represent a majority in the parliament. They have taken huge steps in stepping up against Facebook, Google and the likes; they have done more for worker's protection, ... and they have done this in a realistic fashion.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
Nullification isn't required. It was advisory in the first place.
Which is also why all this hysteria is such bullshit.
Helensmith
Member
Nullification would be make Remainers more angry and indignant than being defeated in a second referendum.
Sorry, I was meaning an effective nullification, i.e. any outcome which results in us staying in the EU.
As you note, the referendum itself is a red herring.
I'm going to assume you mean Leavers.
And their anger and indignance should be noted and ignored, direct democracy is no way to run a country.
nice people on twitter:
the guy deleted it but I managed to get a screenshot... if you look at his other tweets you can see how nice he is...
I'm sorry for you guys who voted remain, but as an immigrant there are zero chances I'll stay here...
I can't blame you. Good luck.
iz.podpolja
Neo Member
That is not true - I give you the Polish example, where even the Law & Justice party is pro-EU, despite them being UKIP-like in almost any other regard (80% of society would remain in the EU if a similar referendum happened here), including a mechanism which led to their electoral victory - votes of disenfranchised. Of course it has nothing to do with immigration. It has everything to do with governments going for austerity and claiming it is the right solution, everything else is just a scapegoat/distraction (especially the EU). You cannot attempt to castrate public services & education system and expect that people who find those elements the only real state presence in their lives will not notice, especially that it can only lead to even greater inequality, as those with enough money will have access to better paid education/healthcare anyway. If you narrow the resource base, there is always going to be a visible other to blame - immigrants, minorities, "5th column" and so on.
As old protective measures simply won't work anymore (the level of economical interdependence is just not comparable) new solutions of wealth distribution must be implemented, but the collective stupidity of post-08 economic policies gives rather little hope for the current establishment, especially when some would rather point fingers at the framework of European cooperation (again easy scapegoat - institution which people simply know little about), then at the people really responsible for these measures - who, especially in the UK, have been more then happy pointing their fingers in the same direction for years!.
In my opinion, your attitude (blame the EU that is) is sort of symptomatic - EU bashing is the easiest and - seemingly - the least politically expensive solution, whereas the true blame lies with national governments thinking that going only for macroeconomic indicators is all you need in terms of policing - which is obviously BS, as the social cleavage widens faster then the potential economic growth.
According to your logic, basically, were the "Syrian immigrants" the current scapegoat for your public (as they're now in Poland for instance) - they should be the ones to blame, because their very existence fuels support for the far-right.
As for the UKIP's future - they're not going to starve. They, or another project like them will feed off of continued austerity policies, economic uncertainty & slowdown that will ensue for years as the result of Brexit. You see the problem is that they have shown that they are able to construct a narrative that people believe in, it might still include the "Evil EU" as the future deal will not be to everyone's satisfaction. To rule hearts you only need to tell people fables they wish to hear, preferably show them the dragon and yell - charge! It works, you only need infinite supply of dragons & that's an easy task. This is what desperation and lack of perspectives make of electorate, and to combat such populism one has to propose a positive, realistic project of similar attractiveness, moreover, be able to "sell it" - and that's not an easy task.
Which brings me to the last point - I really hope your left will do better than ours (as I said we already have UKIP) - ie will be able to get their shit together, and instead of critically contemplating the reality from the commentator's seat, actually do anything about it. Ours is fighting to even get to the parliament & will probably fail.
EDIT: LOL. I really should stop commenting, I'm spawning barely cohesive essays based on my somewhat limited knowledge of facts on the ground, basically speculating about quite complicated issues I know too little about to make such categorical statementst. Thx for bearing with it though.
His cover photo says it all.nice people on twitter:
the guy deleted it but I managed to get a screenshot... if you look at his other tweets you can see how nice he is...
I'm sorry for you guys who voted remain, but as an immigrant there are zero chances I'll stay here...
And what would those 'dire consequences' be? I'm sure other posters are fed up of me banging on about this, but our police and armed forces are well-equipped to deal with hooligans. A few bloodied EDL fascists and miffed OAPs is a bargain price to pay for ensuring the UK's future.
Additionally, I think you'll find that many of those so-called 'fucktards' have a healthy respect for democracy as demonstrated by their marching; after all, freedom to voice dissent is a cornerstone of a democratic state. IMO, what you and too many others show is a dogmatic adherence to democracy, while simultaneously demonstrating a lack understanding of that very same thing; 1) Parliament is under no legal obligation to adhere to the outcome of the referendum, and that is a fundamental aspect of British democracy; and 2) as a tool for governing a country, the electorate shouldn't be so attached to it that they would willingly allow their country to sink all for the warm, fuzzy feeling that is respecting democracy.
In a world where experts are readily sneered at by politician and voter alike, and the tabloid press runs rampant, filling the electorate's heads with utter bollocks, democracy can be as much a tool for ill as the most totalitarian dictatorship.
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
So that's why SEGA publishes fuck all in the EU.
We're leaving it though, so I imagine we'll get Persona 5 at the same time as the Yanks now.
'We can freely ignore the people's democratic decision, our well equipped police and armed forces can deal with any dissent.'
TatteredHat
Member
Isn't that the whole point of having a referendum that's advisory rather than binding? the UK population should have campaigned for a binding referendum if they don't like the possibility of it not being followed by the government.
TBH this shit could have been avoided if the official stance would have just been "we'll see what the population thinks and then, if the majority wants to leave the EU, explore the viability of doing so". Then when it's clear that no, there is no fucking way that this is a good idea, you could just not do it. Who would have stopped you? Boris is all but gone and the Leave Campaign's promises turned out to be lies anyway.
Monty Mole
Member
There are idiots and racists everywhere in the world. This rhetoric will die down soon once the 'excitement' of the referendum dies down.nice people on twitter:
the guy deleted it but I managed to get a screenshot... if you look at his other tweets you can see how nice he is...
I'm sorry for you guys who voted remain, but as an immigrant there are zero chances I'll stay here...
And you're not an immigrant, you're an expat. That's what Brits call it when they emigrate, why should you have to be labelled differently when it's the other way round
I hope you do choose to stay, don't let these disgusting pieces of filth win. They're an extremely minute, but sadly loud and outspoken, minority. And whatever you do, please never generalise and tar us all with the same brush because of them.
Monty Mole
Member
Their argument is that the leave campaign was based on nothing but lies and therefore the referendum should be void. And you can't argue with that IMO, those are actually the facts. Hence Boris hiding in shame.
You can rebrand it however you want, even cooperation, but the reality of the matter is that the Council makes all the important decisions. The Parliament is mainly just decoration.
It is also blocking the left in Greece for example from pushing for worker's rights, human rights and so on. The EU like the Democrats in the US wants a stable neoliberal system where worker's ARE losing their labour rights, pensions and national wealth is being pillaged but at an acceptable rate to avoid outliers like Corbyn and Sanders.
Again, the parliament is mostly irrelevant. Not to mention that you called the " Progressive Alliance of Socialists and Democrats" leftist which I find hilarious. They're the same scumbags I've been raving about since forever, the faux left and the liberals that constantly vote for neoliberal legislation and then pretends to be left during election time. Currently one of the most prominent members of that party, the "Socialist" Party in France is trying to pass anti-labour legislation, which is why the entire country is currently demonstrating and striking.
ClosingADoor
Member
But we vote for the European Council by voting for our own governments and heads of state. So isn't it good that those people make important decisions? We voted for them to do exactly that.
Helensmith
Member
Yes sorry, I meant Leavers! Playing Devil's Advocate here... it sounds like we are saying the result is advisory and we shouldn't listen to direct democracy only because we Remainers do not agree with the result. In the run up, it was billed as permanent and binding, so it is unfair to change the terms as the losers.
CyclopsRock
Member
They have no idea what the motivation behind the casting of votes was, and I'm not entirely sure that matters anyway.
AHA-Lambda
Member
I'm not entirely sure, I'm convinced if you had this referendum again tomorrow remain would win now
ClosingADoor
Member
Promises were made about funds and immigration that were pretty much scrapped the day after. So I'd say that people voted for something, but they are not getting it.
They should really just make a plan now and put that up to vote, so it is clear what exactly will happen. Just voting Yes or No based on nothing more then empty promises was a stupid idea to begin with.
Simply not the case if you knew how the European Union works. European Parliament has blocking powers on the European Council. The European Council also only meets on certain areas while the European Parliament has a way wider responsibility. It makes 1000-2000 laws on a yearly basis while the Council only comes together on a couple of things. Mainly about the direction of the Union, but that is fine, because again, these are people to represent every country worldwide and it puts responsibility directly in their camp, instead of moving it to an unknown person. The fact you don't hold the person accountable doesn't mean he isn't.
They don't, the Greek left simply doesn't have an alternative that works. It is that simple. The rest of Europe would actually like their money back, so if you can solve the problem, go ahead. Europe will welcome it.
That simply doesn't happen if you actually looked at the laws they pass. It is a lot more than Corbyn did, who is a shining example of corrupt left politics while Sanders is a one-note politician that thinks economic reforms will suddenly solve all human rights issues.
Communism doesn't work, populist left doesn't work. They have never worked. Good left politicians have to make hard decisions that piss people off. People live longer, so yes, they have to work longer.
ClosingADoor
Member
But that is taking away more rights from the states, which is also not good. So we now have this little hybrid of Council, Parliament and Commission to keep everyone happy. I don't see that much wrong with it.
I'm proposing the dissolution of the Council which I consider a cancerous tumor right at the heart of the EU and either begin the process of an actual economic union or dissolve the EU altogether. Like I said at its current state the "union" is just means to bully the weak and aid the powerful either that's citizens or nations.
ClosingADoor
Member
But every state has the same power in the Council now, no matter the size. How are smaller states being bullied? Belgium has just as much say in the Council as France of Germany, despite being a lot smaller.
I get it is not perfect, but at the moment there is no way the member states are handing over even more power to the EU - which it would need for tighter economic integration - while the people are against that in different countries. It's just politically impossible.
If Leave voters were to protest and march peacefully that's cool. Indeed, we saw that exact same approach to this mess from Remain supporters in London today.
However, call me unfair, but I don't think a group whose very foundation is built on a pack of lies, ignorance, bigotry, and the boneheaded rejection of today's world in favour of a past that deserves to be looked back on with a degree of shame is capable of peaceful dissent en masse. Constituents who bend history and fact to their distorted whims, who use the plight of refugees as a propaganda tool, who use one of our nation's greatest achievements the NHS as a wedge between ourselves and some of our closest allies and neighbours, who spread malicious rumours about foreign nationals, who don't care about our country's future as long as they get to screw the banks and politicians, who exhibit racist and xenophobic behaviours at the slightest whiff of acceptance, who fucking murdered an MP with opposing ideals they are not rational actors.
It doesn't matter whether or not all Leave voters think the same, because, regardless of their stance on immigration, EU bureaucracy, etc., they have all been led down the same garden path.
If you seriously want to start calling into question every referendum where ideologies and campaign promises were not capitalized then why stop with Brexit?
What you're describing is how the Council is supposed to work not how it does and we've seen that numerous times the last few years. Basically Germany and a couple of other nations make all the decisions because they have all the power and everyone else follows.
On the other hand the Parliament isn't segregated based on nations, it's separated according to ideology and that's what we should strive for from an actual union.
And I partly agree, there is no way anymore the member states are handing over even more power to the EU because the majority in many of these nations have lost all trust in the union. Which is also why I consider it doomed and why the ruling class of those nations is so desperately trying to hold on to it often using pathetic media propaganda like the one we're facing right now according to which all people who voted for Brexit are racists, the people want another referendum, the British economy is dead and its over for the country and other complete and utter nonsense. It's like watching T1000 trying to survive in the molten lava.
Well personally I'd have made it binding, and I imagine UKIP would have wanted it to be binding too. But it wasn't and parliament is sovereign, so it's an advisory referendum and could be rejected. That's a political decision though. A low turnout would have given the Government an easy way to explain rejecting the result, but that didn't happen.
Rejecting the result and not having that lead to terrible consequences for democracy in this country would take a very impressive political argument, and just calling the people who voted for leave 'ignorant bigots who reject today's world in favour of a past that deserves to be looked back on with a degree of shame' isn't going to cut it.
iz.podpolja
Neo Member
I again disagree, moreover I gave you very specific examples of the contrary (as for citizens). One could even argue that because how voting power is distributed the EU actually give disproportionate power to smaller nations (as for nations).
Situation with Southern European nations has more to do with eurozone & the fact that there's is a monetary union without fiscal harmonisation.
maquiladora
Member
You do realise that the Council is a meeting of the heads of state of all the EU nations, not an underground meeting of unknown hooded figures? The smallest nation has the power to veto any motion since unanimous consent is required. It's a far fairer and more representative system than...say..the United Nations Security Council, which I presume must be much higher of your list of "cancers" to be dissolved?
TheRealTalker
Banned
In a nutshell
I have already explained that the Council doesn't work like it's supposed to. Not mention that my main problem isn't with each country's representation, it's with the lack of democratic process within the union caused by the Council. Also you don't get points for comparing an undemocratic institution with another one. At least the UN doesn't hold so much power over other nations.
It is simply media propaganda that Germany is the one taking these decisions. It is for instance blamed all the time for the Greek situation, despite a huge swat of nations being proponents of the same hardline approach. It is simply the result of a system where people like Rupert Murdoch want to do away with the Union as it stops his corporation from taking control. Murdoch has admitted Europe doesn't listen to him enough, while he has a lot of power in Britain. It is clear why his empire is so anti-EU. It is easy enough to look at Boris Johnson who has admitted to making up anti-EU stories, no wonder Times owner Murdoch likes him. That is the media propaganda you are falling over. (Or, the one of RT which is a lot more believable) It isn't a coincidence so many Leave politicians were former journalists making up anti-EU stories for a living.
It could work in a future where the nations are further integrated, but it requires at the moment both the country and the ideology perspective to be balanced. It still is a step-by-step process for the Union to integrate further, held back by countries like Britain.
It would be nice for the ruling class that desperately wants to sell out their country, by privatizing everything including social security, that wants to pull back workers rights, that wants to undo human rights. It is showing already perfectly in how the British media is actually handling the Brexit. They are already applauding politicians for hollowing out those rights. People that voted Leave, voted for a government that doesn't want public healthcare, that wants to do away with privacy and other human rights. Europe held them back on those points. They are free to do so now.
man, none of those objects needed labeling.
Considering the vote, they clearly do.
Went to the one in London. A lot of drunk youths. Everyone was very friendly. It was good fun.
It's about time our politicians acted in the national interest, rather than their own selfish motivations.
THAT is more than enough justification to reject the plebiscite.
Linkstrikesback
Member
Couldn't today.
There's one in Sheffield outside the town hall on Wednesday that I'm going to, Strictly speaking, it's a student protest, but anyone is welcome.
Not sure if it's already been posted, but Professor AC Grayling's letter to MPs is well worth a read.
https://www.nchlondon.ac.uk/2016/07/01/professor-c-graylings-letter-650-mps-urging-parliament-not-support-motion-trigger-article-50-lisbon-treaty-1-july-2016/
https://www.nchlondon.ac.uk/2016/07/01/professor-c-graylings-letter-650-mps-urging-parliament-not-support-motion-trigger-article-50-lisbon-treaty-1-july-2016/
Graphics Horse
Member
Hah, interesting
JonnyDBrit
Member
Welp, my local MP just made clear that he wouldn't oppose the referendum outcome if there was a vote held in Parliament on the matter.
Even though the town as a whole voted Remain.
Even though the town as a whole voted Remain.
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