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[SporeCrawler]

As Juncker put it last year, when there were talks about Greece leaving the Euro: "there can be no democratic choice against the European treaties"

Historically, what happens in the EU is the result of the referendum is either ignored or people are asked to vote until they vote EU

Country | Year | Reason | % of "NO" | Outcome
Denmark | 1992 | Maastricht treaty | 51,7% | Had to revote
Denmark | 2000 | €uro Membership | 53,2% | Accepted
Ireland | 2001 | Nice Treaty | 53,9% | Had to revote
Sweden | 2003 | €uro membership | 56,1% | Accepted
France | 2005 | European Constitution (TCE) | 54,9% | Ignored
Netherlands | 2005 | European Constitution (TCE) | 61,5% | Ignored
Ireland | 2008 | Lisbon Treaty | 53,2% | Had to revote
Greece| 2015 | Creditors conditions | 61,3% | Ignored

If you look at the stance of european leaders you will see that there is an undercurrent that actually welcomes the outcome. UK was one lf the major roadblockers that prevented any meaningful evolution into a closer more democratic union.

Take a look at the most recent example : The EU had a parliament election and the biggest parties promised that the respective winner will choose the commission president (the commision being the EU institution with the least democratic legitimization) and UK tried to blocl it because they didnt like the winner.

 

[Pixieking]

- BT forced to apologise to German father-of-two after visiting telecom engineer called him a 'burden' on British taxpayers in Brexit aftermath

What is wrong with people? We tell children at school not to bully and then random adults do it willy-nilly.

 

[Palculator]

- BT forced to apologise to German father-of-two after visiting telecom engineer called him a 'burden' on British taxpayers in Brexit aftermath

When Mr Rosenow pointed out that he and his 36-year-old wife, a university academic, contributed to Britain by paying taxes, the engineer allegedly replied: ‘But you have kids in school.’

Fucking idiot. Not only is that father a British taxpayer, he also has kids in the system that will make sure they can get employed and pay taxes. Oh the burden!

 

[Joni]

As Juncker put it last year, when there were talks about Greece leaving the Euro: "there can be no democratic choice against the European treaties"

Historically, what happens in the EU is the result of the referendum is either ignored or people are asked to vote until they vote EU

Country | Year | Reason | % of "NO" | Outcome
Denmark | 1992 | Maastricht treaty | 51,7% | Had to revote
Denmark | 2000 | €uro Membership | 53,2% | Accepted
Ireland | 2001 | Nice Treaty | 53,9% | Had to revote
Sweden | 2003 | €uro membership | 56,1% | Accepted
France | 2005 | European Constitution (TCE) | 54,9% | Ignored
Netherlands | 2005 | European Constitution (TCE) | 61,5% | Ignored
Ireland | 2008 | Lisbon Treaty | 53,2% | Had to revote
Greece| 2015 | Creditors conditions | 61,3% | Ignored

let's ignore that the treaty were changed based on those rejections? Democracy worked there, their representatives used the referendum to show changes were required. But that doesn't fit the germany is boss or undemocratic EU narrative. I already showed this a couple of pages back and it got ignored then as well.

 

[SporeCrawler]

Fucking idiot. Not only is that father a British taxpayer, he also has kids in the system that will make sure they can get employed and pay taxes. Oh the burden!

Yes but I assume many peole will choose to leave the country. Who wants to constantly legitimize his existance to random strangers just because he isnt a UK citizen?

 

[Ushojax]

A few choice Daily Mail headlines of the day...

- Hypocrite! Tory leadership hopeful and Vote Leave campaigner Andrea Leadsom previously said 'Brexit would be a disaster'

Everything going smoothly I see.

Three years ago, Mrs Leadsom – the leading rival to Theresa May’s bid to become the next Prime Minister – said: ‘I’m going to nail my colours to the mast here: I don’t think the UK should leave the EU. I think it would be a disaster for our economy and it would lead to a decade of economic and political uncertainty at a time when the tectonic plates of global success are moving.
‘Economic success is the vital underpinning of every happy nation. The wellbeing we all crave goes hand in hand with economic success.’

I still can't get over the brass necks on these wankers.

 

[oti]

Fucking idiot. Not only is that father a British taxpayer, he also has kids in the system that will make sure they can get employed and pay taxes. Oh the burden!

So you wrote like a script for changing you avatar every 5 seconds, or?

 

[Theonik]

Three years ago, Mrs Leadsom – the leading rival to Theresa May’s bid to become the next Prime Minister – said: ‘I’m going to nail my colours to the mast here: I don’t think the UK should leave the EU. I think it would be a disaster for our economy and it would lead to a decade of economic and political uncertainty at a time when the tectonic plates of global success are moving.
‘Economic success is the vital underpinning of every happy nation. The wellbeing we all crave goes hand in hand with economic success.’

I still can't get over the brass necks on these wankers.

I predict a flip-flop after election when it comes to hitting the button.

 

[RedShift]

The more I think about the more insane it seems to trigger Article 50 before a GE. We're going to have the biggest constitutional change in forever negotiated by an unelected government.

 

[zpiders]

The more I think about the more insane it seems to trigger Article 50 before a GE. We're going to have the biggest constitutional change in forever negotiated by an unelected government.

The majority voted for the Tory's in the last GE. Just like the majority voted for Brexit.

 

[Monty Mole]

The more I think about the more insane it seems to trigger Article 50 before a GE. We're going to have the biggest constitutional change in forever negotiated by an unelected government.

It wouldn't surprise me if that ended up being the case. Nobody has said then they will trigger it, just that it won't be before the end of the year. The easiest way to wriggle out of this mess with the least fallout is by incorporating in to a manifesto at the GE.

Of course, the rest of the EU will likely explode with anger if we delay it that long.

 

[Bold One]

which one of you was this?

 

[-Plasma Reus-]

Yes but I assume many peole will choose to leave the country. Who wants to constantly legitimize his existance to random strangers just because he isnt a UK citizen?

I'm leaving myself. Just holding on until the Scottish referendum, and if Scotland votes to secede, then I will moving to Scotland. Otherwise, I will be moving to a different European country.
Even if Britain strikes a deal to allow EU citizens who have lived here (I've lived here for over 11 years now) I'm not sure what kind of economy this will be. There is very likely a recession to follow all of this, along with years or decades of difficulties. Things will likely be very difficult for the average working person.

It's a shame, because I was contemplating purchasing a house and other things just a few months ago.

 

[Monty Mole]

I'm leaving myself. Just holding on until the Scottish referendum, and if Scotland votes to secede, then I will moving to Scotland. Otherwise, I will be moving to a different European country.
Even if Britain strikes a deal to allow EU citizens who have lived here (I've lived here for over 11 years now) I'm not sure what kind of economy this will be. There is very likely a recession to follow all of this, along with years or decades of difficulties. Things will likely be very difficult for the average working person.

It's a shame, because I was contemplating purchasing a house and other things just a few months ago.

The irony is the government may have to do absolutely nothing at all now to get the net migration numbers down.

 

[SlipperyFishes]

Fucking hell SEGA!

Sega follow millions of people for their freebie Fridays. Nothing more.

 

[Broken Joystick]

which one of you was this?

Bregret😭😭😭😭

 

[RedShift]

The majority voted for the Tory's in the last GE. Just like the majority voted for Brexit.

No, a plurality voted for the Tories in the last GE. And that was for a Conservative party led by Cameron.

 

[CyclopsRock]

No, a plurality voted for the Tories in the last GE. And that was for a Conservative party led by Cameron.

Well, a majority voted for the conservatives + ukip so I don't think the majority / plurality distinction is one worth making.

 

[PdotMichael]

nice people on twitter:

the guy deleted it but I managed to get a screenshot... if you look at his other tweets you can see how nice he is...

I'm sorry for you guys who voted remain, but as an immigrant there are zero chances I'll stay here...

Retweets Jeremy Clarkson stuff... heh.

 

[Monty Mole]

Retweets Jeremy Clarkson stuff... heh.

Wasn't Jeremy a Bremainer?

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

Wasn't Jeremy a Bremainer?

That's the point.

 

[Neo C.]

If you look at the stance of european leaders you will see that there is an undercurrent that actually welcomes the outcome. UK was one lf the major roadblockers that prevented any meaningful evolution into a closer more democratic union.

Take a look at the most recent example : The EU had a parliament election and the biggest parties promised that the respective winner will choose the commission president (the commision being the EU institution with the least democratic legitimization) and UK tried to blocl it because they didnt like the winner.

It has probably been shown in this thread, but it's a good explanation by Vox anyway.

 

[War Peaceman]

Despite the many problems with them it is quite good to see that the two leading candidates for the Tory leadership are women and, crucially, they've run decent, fair campaigns for the position.

 

[Fernando Fernandez]

Potential next PM Theresa May doesn't seem keen on pressing the button. On Peston she says there's "No absolute deadline" and Britain "won't be rushed"

 

[War Peaceman]

Potential next PM Theresa May doesn't seem keen on pressing the button. On Peston she says there's "No absolute deadline" and Britain "won't be rushed"

When she announced her leadership she said 'not before xmas' and 'Brexit means Brexit'.

 

[IdreamofHIME]

Peston's show is terrible. Yikes, never watched before.
A mumbling messy muppet trying to spit out dumb questions ('do you pray?' WTF?!) and then throwing Twitter trash questions at the guest.
What a mess.

May comes across as likeable compared to the rest of her crew.

 

[Volotaire]

Back in Corbyn land, things are getting tense.

 

[Empty]

Peston's show is terrible. Yikes, never watched before.
A mumbling messy muppet trying to spit out dumb questions ('do you pray?' WTF?!) and then throwing Twitter trash questions at the guest.
What a mess.

May comes across as likeable compared to the rest of her crew.

it's so bad

marr can have some cringey elements but he does a proper good grilling of guests

gove's whole "i just reluctantly had to do it for the national interest" shit was exposed massively this morning on marr.

 

[Kathian]

It's bizarre Peston landed a politics job.

 

[Hasney]

It's bizarre Peston landed a politics job.

All part of becoming a politician sooner or later I'm sure.

 

[norinrad]

Maybe a bit off topic, but perhaps white Europeans being discriminated against and being called all sorts of hurtful insults will now be more kind and open minded towards minorities in their own home countries.

 

[jelly]

It's bizarre Peston landed a politics job.

I remember a clip of him at a some PM conference, press suited up, sitting up straight asking questions to the PM then cut to him who looks like he just walked out of Saturday Night Fever slouching lazily asking his question. It was hilarious.

 

[PdotMichael]

Maybe a bit off topic, but perhaps white Europeans being discriminated against and being called all sorts of hurtful insults will now be more kind and open minded towards minorities in their own home countries.

There is no such thing as white European within the POV of Europe.

Ask Poland how much shit they got in the last hundred years from Germany and Russia although being "white"(tm).

 

[-Plasma Reus-]

Maybe a bit off topic, but perhaps white Europeans being discriminated against and being called all sorts of hurtful insults will now be more kind and open minded towards minorities in their own home countries.

Yes, that's crossed my mind as well.
Won't happen though. Polish people for example, have gone through a lot of shit, yet Polish people will often tell you just how racist Polish people can be.

 

[Kathian]

Maybe a bit off topic, but perhaps white Europeans being discriminated against and being called all sorts of hurtful insults will now be more kind and open minded towards minorities in their own home countries.

Yes clearly these specific white Europeans are racist as they are white Europeans. Oh no wait your being racist about racism and talking bollocks.

 

[norinrad]

Yes clearly these specific white Europeans are racist as they are white Europeans. Oh no wait your being racist about racism and talking bollocks.

If I was a German living in a country where people are telling me to go home or a burden to their country, I would probably be sympathetic to other minorities in my own country being told the same by other countrymen. What's so bollocks about that?


I should have said Europeans from the continent i guess. Wrong choice of words there.

 

[Palculator]

Yes, that's crossed my mind as well.
Won't happen though. Polish people for example, have gone through a lot of shit, yet Polish people will often tell you just how racist Polish people can be.

Yup, it can easily reinforce an "us vs. them" mentality.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

If you ever need to disillusion yourself of the idea that white men stick together and don't discriminate then all you have to do is look at the history of Europe even up to 100 years ago or current events. One of the reasons why the united Europe dream will always struggle is that that European states have to deal with a lot of populist prejudice based on regionalism and nationalism. Even read this thread with statements like the people saying that the English always think they are special and only want to take and steal. When Greece is struggling people just say that Greeks are lazy and fraudsters, there is not enough solidarity.

 

[PdotMichael]

If you ever need to disillusion yourself of the idea that white men stick together and don't discriminate then all you have to do is look at the history of Europe even up to 100 years ago or current events. One of the reasons why the united Europe dream will always struggle is that that European states have to deal with a lot of populist prejudice based on regionalism and nationalism. Even read this thread with statements like the people saying that the English always think they are special and only want to take and steal. When Greece is struggling people just say that Greeks are lazy and fraudsters, there is not enough solidarity.

There is not a single white people culture and language. Not sure why NeoGAF has often problems getting that concept.
Same shit with Asians.

 

[SporeCrawler]

If you ever need to disillusion yourself of the idea that white men stick together and don't discriminate then all you have to do is look at the history of Europe even up to 100 years ago or current events. One of the reasons why the united Europe dream will always struggle is that that European states have to deal with a lot of populist prejudice based on regionalism and nationalism. Even read this thread with statements like the people saying that the English always think they are special and only want to take and steal. When Greece is struggling people just say that Greeks are lazy and fraudsters, there is not enough solidarity.

If anything the brexit will be an example to many EU states that leaving is not an option.

We are just at the beginning and the country already has a finacial, political and constitutional crisis. After the mass exodus from london, stoppage of invest and break down of the service industry the situation will get only worse

Even EU sceptics will not want that kind of crisis

 

[Palculator]

There is not a single white people culture and language. Not sure why NeoGAF has often problems getting that concept.
Same shit with Asians.

Probably because a lot of GAF is American, where that statement is much more valid.

If anything the brexit will be an example to many EU states that leaving is not an option.

We are just at the beginning and the country already has a finacial, political and constitutional crisis. After the mass exodus from london, stoppage of invest and break down of the service industry the situation will get only worse

Even EU sceptics will not want that kind of crisis

Case in point:

Britain’s decision to quit the European Union was all it took to terrify Finnish voters, with more than two-thirds now affirming their loyalty to the bloc.

“Brexit seems to have had a strong impact on Finnish attitudes toward the EU,” said Teija Tiilikainen, director of the Finnish Institute of International Affairs. “Brexit has, in a concrete way, questioned the integrity of the EU for the first time.” For Finland, the result is that voters are now “seeking safety” in the status quo, he said.

The development suggests that, far from unleashing a populist wave, Brexit appears to have given European citizens some pause. In Spain, voters on Sunday shied away from anti-establishment parties like Podemos and threw their weight behind caretaker Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...finns-away-from-eu-referendum-many-had-sought

 

[SporeCrawler]

Probably because a lot of GAF is American, where that statement is much more valid.

Case in point:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...finns-away-from-eu-referendum-many-had-sought

Also geman eurosceptics AFD lost about 3% in popularity singe may or so.

Partly this may because the AFD openly criticized non-white soccer players to be.. Uh non-white but I also think the brexit vote did make their claims appear more and more outlandish.. Dunnonhow gert wilders, front national and FPÖ is doing at the moment

 

[Chinner]

Does anyone know what politics Leadsom stands for? I know very little, except she would blurt out her soundbytes in a robotic and annoying manner with a dash of smugness. Either, didn't like her.

 

[Palculator]

Partly this may because the AFD openly criticized non-white soccer players to be.. Uh non-white but I also think the brexit vote did make their claims appear more and more outlandish.. Dunnonhow gert wilders, front national and FPÖ is doing at the moment

Oh, that particular kerfuffle was about Alexander Gauland (AfD leader) calling Jérôme Boateng not "classically German" and questioning his place in the national football team (for which the requirement is merely German citizenship, which Boateng has.) He tried to back-pedal on that on TV by saying he was merely reacting to the non-German-sounding name and that he didn't know he was "coloured" (his words.) He came across like a 28 Carat Shite. He used the same defence when he was caught stealing lyrics from Neo-Nazi bands as slogans, saying he just saw some striking quote and didn't know it had fascist origins. Utter clown, that wanker.

 

[CassSept]

Maybe a bit off topic, but perhaps white Europeans being discriminated against and being called all sorts of hurtful insults will now be more kind and open minded towards minorities in their own home countries.

Polish nationalists are completely oblivious to how many Poles are regarded in the UK. They applaud the Brits for taking a stand against 'immigrant vermin' completely missing the point that in this case it usually refers to Poles, not Muslim. It's an absolutely bizarre situation that boggles the mind. That's some really next-level denial.

 

[KingSnake]

Also geman eurosceptics AFD lost about 3% in popularity singe may or so.

Partly this may because the AFD openly criticized non-white soccer players to be.. Uh non-white but I also think the brexit vote did make their claims appear more and more outlandish.. Dunnonhow gert wilders, front national and FPÖ is doing at the moment

I think it's quite telling that Hofer (now again candidate in the re-run of the Austrian presidential election) from FPÖ has now back-pedaled on a possible EU referendum in Austria, saying they will call for it only in case Turkey (that's racist business as usual which seems to be OK in Austria for some reason) joins EU or US of E is pushed to be.

 

[inoperativ]

Probably because a lot of GAF is American, where that statement is much more valid.

Case in point:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...finns-away-from-eu-referendum-many-had-sought

And Soini (our Farage and current Foreign Minister... yeah) managed to fuck up completely by making an unofficial visit and meeting with Leave supporters, hence associating himself with this mess.

I've never been happier or more proud to live in Glasgow. Bring on another indy ref and I'll happily vote yes this time, don't want to contribute my taxes to a country and government that doesn't want me.

 

[Camp Freddie]

May comes across as likeable compared to the rest of her crew.

May is now 'the likeable one'. I never thought I'd hear those words, let alone agree with them. Truly, the end times are upon us.

 

[lazer_bean]

I'm assuming you mean a fiscal union or more integrated political union, which isn't something I'd oppose, but is besides the point.

The crux of your complaint is still very strange to me. Basically it amounts to a disagreement with heads of government/state conducting policy fora that affect world affairs; which world leaders regularly do.

Whether it's the EU or the UN, NATO, APEC, ASEAN, the G20, CHOGM, African Union.

It's part of their remit when you elect them internally.

I have to make it short:
I think the problem is separation of powers (legislature/executive/judiciary), which is widely recognized as a key ingredient in a democracy.
In the EU, the Commission has all these powers, which is not very balanced.
The commission administers existing laws, it's also the one and only initiator of new laws (legislative). It also has the power to implement these laws (executive).
In other words they write and execute the laws.
Now there's still the parliamament or Coucil but the parliament (only directly elected body) has next to no power. For example, it can amend draft laws but only if the Commission agrees. They cannot propose new laws etc...
The council of ministers can also make laws (still on the basis of the Commission's proposal). But, most of the time, these laws are made behind close doors (around 85% of the time, I think). The adoption of the law might be public but negotiations will be private.

Anyway, It is also argued that the commission has judiciary powers because European judges are nominated by the executive (for six years - renewable, so they better behave), and are therefore not independent (that's crazy imo - a bit as if a president directly nominated judges in his/her country). Those judges have great power as they can issue fines, penalties, with no recourse and eureopeans have no way to defend themselves against this court.

In a nutshell, I'd say that, while separation of powers is necessary for a balanced democracy, in the EU those powers are intertwined and only one body has all the power.

 

[Gurgelhals]

I think it's quite telling that Hofer (now again candidate in the re-run of the Austrian presidential election) from FPÖ has now back-pedaled on a possible EU referendum in Austria, saying they will call for it only in case Turkey (that's racist business as usual which seems to be OK in Austria for some reason) joins EU or US of E is pushed to be.

Similar developments happening in Switzerland at the moment. As some of you might know, we narrowly voted for a people's initiative to unilaterally regulate immigration in 2014 and the government is required to put this decision into law by February 2017. It has always been obvious that this would mean an end to our bilateral agreements with the EU, because we would be violating the freedom of movement that is part of these agreements. It is also clear that the EU won't budge an inch on that matter - now, after the Brexit fiasco, less than ever, of course.

The probable outcome of all this is that, in order to meet the February 2017 deadline, our government will implement some bullshit legislation that doesn't change anything to the status quo and, thus, doesn't violate our treaties with the EU. What is interesting, however, is that, although our far right party (the guys responsible for the 2014 anti-immigration initiative) have threatened to respond with another initiative, this time with the aim to dissolve our bilateral treaties with the EU (i.e. do a "Swixit"), even they seem reluctant to really go through with this. Even they seem to come to the realization that this would be hopeless and also mean economic suicide for Switzerland.

In short, this Brexit debacle might turn out to be a blessing in disguise for pro-european politics. As long as the EU doesn't overplay its hand, doesn't exert too much direct pressure on the UK to get on with it, and manages to present itself as the sensible and sane party in that entire mess, Brexit could very well mean the beginning of a gradual retreat of euroscepticism throughout Europe (whether this is going to be a Europe with the UK in or out of it is, of course, up in the air; but that's a completely different point).