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[ClosingADoor]

Would the Tories have done as well at the ballot box last time had it not been an election promise?

Could he have kept his job had he not called it?

He was cornered. He had no choice but to hold the referendum and win. He's only fault really is that he lost.

I'm no fan of his, and certainly never voted Tory in my life, but I wouldn't lay the blame of this mess at his door.

Boris Johnson, Jeremy Corbyn, Nigel Farrage - all have more to answer for than Cameron does.

No, Cameron gambled with the future of the country for short term political gain. People are very right to blame him.

 

[cormack12]

Possibly the most damning thing you can see to a large population of 'working class' leave voters.......

Regarding school, it's been a while but yeah primary school touched briefly on the Tudors and Stuarts which continued into secondary school, then onto the french revolution and onto the industrial revolution. Then around the key stage 3 year we looked at the first world war and the end (ToV), which led gracefully into GCSE post wwi right the way through to wwii and then finished on Vietnam - but we never did any of the politics of Vietnam, just the war and major decisions timeline.

Geography was another non-subject. We had to go and count cars for populace and demographics as a GCSE project. The water cycle, and tectonic plates etc. I don't really know what I got out of Geography looking back. I got a B in the exam without really trying, although I think a lot of the mark was also tied to the demographic project.

I can't really comment on today as I have no kids etc. but on reflection I don't think the syllabus I followed was great for either of those subjects.

 

[Engell]

No, Cameron gambled with the future of the country for short term political gain. People are very right to blame him.

you can hardly blame one person for the stupidity of over half a country

 

[kmag]

https://mobile.twitter.com/patrickwintour/status/750275084447846400

This is very interesting. To secure an EEA deal will need the approval of not just the 27 in the EU, but also the countries in the EEA and the Swiss. So that makes very unlikely that we will get better terms than what other EEA countries have got already.

Well that's a sensible exit off the table then.

 

[Ryuuroden]

Sorry I doubted you. I'll take your word for it, especially seeing as other people are saying the same thing. I just find it so surprising considering the breadth of subjects we studied in depth during my time at secondary school.

For all the shit people give the USA for being so American-centric in their historic education, sounds like we're just as bad over here. Damn.



Seriously, it's cray.

My American school was not American history centric. Granted this was two decades ago but just arguing perception is reality is being lazy. I think part of it is the quality of the school system.

What schools in the west do suffer from is not so much a "insert country" centric curriculum, but a western centric curriculum. The focus tends to be eurocentric till the 19th-20th century where it then expands to North American history. When it covers Asia, Africa, and South America, it is from a colonial POV.

It's commonly referred to as history written by the victors or the strongest. It's similar to how we study the Romans and rarely learn about the Franks and the Germanic tribes except through the Roman point of view. No one learns a lot about the history of Africa pre mid 20th century other than the history in which European powers were involved.

It's not limited to the west either. Japan and China teach very Japan centric and Chinese centric historical curriculum in their general education that makes Western curriculum look far more broad in comparison.

 

[inoperativ]

Blaming Cameron for this vote is as disingenuous as blaming Brown for US sub-prime mortgage lending. The vote has been promised since the Blair government failed to deliver on it. Between UKIP, and his own backbenchers what choice did he have?

If he had taken a strong stance against the eurosceptic nutters in his own party from the beginning of his tenure things might look different. Instead he allowed himself to be forced into a situation where he had to choose between gambling on the well-being of the country or risking the breakup of his party, and he chose the path that was easier for himself over the one that was better for the country.

 

[Linkstrikesback]

https://mobile.twitter.com/patrickwintour/status/750275084447846400

This is very interesting. To secure an EEA deal will need the approval of not just the 27 in the EU, but also the countries in the EEA and the Swiss. So that makes it very unlikely that we will get better terms than what other EEA countries have got already.

Of course we won't get better terms. We already had better terms than most of the states in the EU, and our population for some reason I still can't comprehend voted to give those for a worse quality of life for everyone.

 

[accel]

Ignore them. Threaten to call a GE if they did anything stupid. Wait until the economy was in a better position/more boomers were dead, hold a referendum then. Average life expectancy from 65 is only 16, you do this referendum even 5 years later and a third of that demographic is dead ....

This is disgusting. I can't believe I am reading this. (Maybe I misunderstood and this is some form of sarcasm? Then I apologize for misreading it.)

 

[BGBW]

I know my father lost a lot of respect for Cameron the moment he put forward the referendum. Before, he considered him one of the better Tory leaders.

 

[cormack12]

The only real issue I have with Cameron is not listening to Sturgeon when she said there should be caveats on the referendum. However, I'm betting that deep down, he genuinely didn't think people would be this daft.

 

[Meadows]

Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam 14 minutes ago

At 1922 last night @TheresaMay2016 said legal status of EU nationals in Britain guaranteed as long as British in EU countries guaranteed too

---

Good to know that all candidates now want to keep EU workers currently here, here.

 

[The Friendly Monster]

Would the Tories have done as well at the ballot box last time had it not been an election promise?

Could he have kept his job had he not called it?

He was cornered. He had no choice but to hold the referendum and win. He's only fault really is that he lost.

Exactly my point, he acted in his own self-interest, not that of the country. I didn't say he was stupid I said he was spineless.

 

[Pyramid head]

you can hardly blame one person for the stupidity of over half a country

Cameron is moron zero though. Even after the already world class stupidity of hijacking the idea to pander to the more racist elements of their electorate, actually going through with it was utterly fucking ridiculous. Of all the bullshit election promises, this is the one he actually keeps?

I'd bet money that if the Tories never again mentioned the referendum after the last election, the majority of people who went out to vote leave wouldn't have even remembered it was ever a thing. And even if they did, so fucking what? To quote a leave voter I saw on Facebook dismissing the whole 350m NHS thing: "All politicians lie".

 

[GamerMax73]

If he had taken a strong stance against the eurosceptic nutters in his own party from the beginning of his tenure things might look different. Instead he allowed himself to be forced into a situation where he had to choose between gambling on the well-being of the country or risking the breakup of his party, and he chose the path that was easier for himself over the one that was better for the country.

Personally I think these kind of things are easier to say with hindsight. Truth is the Europe question brought down Thatcher and plagued Majors entire time in office. UKIP formed in 93. The whole thing has been bubbling under the surface for decades with consecutive governments promising and failing to deliver. Sure the timing could have been better but sooner or later the Tories had to either do this or implode.

I take a similar line with Blair and am interested in hearing the news on Chilcot. I'm under no illusions - he lied to take us into war, and with hindsight Iraq as been no better since. But, to go as far as using hindsight to call a former Prime Minister a war criminal? I'd rather hear what the report says first, thanks.

 

[*Splinter]

Would the Tories have done as well at the ballot box last time had it not been an election promise?

Could he have kept his job had he not called it?

He was cornered. He had no choice but to hold the referendum and win. He's only fault really is that he lost.

I'm no fan of his, and certainly never voted Tory in my life, but I wouldn't lay the blame of this mess at his door.

Boris Johnson, Jeremy Corbyn, Nigel Farrage - all have more to answer for than Cameron does.

It shouldn't have been a promise in the first place.

 

[GamerMax73]

Exactly my point, he acted in his own self-interest, not that of the country. I didn't say he was stupid I said he was spineless.

So what would have happened? Tory revolt, New leader, and they would have fulfilled the referendum promise?

 

[CyclopsRock]

Thing is guys, offering people things for short term political gain means that you're offering them a thing that they want. This is doubly so when that thing is a referendum, which is fundamentally about choice. In other words, we are all blaming the Cam-Man for offering people something they wanted, giving it to them and then not liking the choice. Yeah yeah, representative democracy, blah blah blah. But if what you're arguing is that he should have been more stringent in denying the will of the people (as their representative) then I think y'all should be more forthcoming in making that your argument, rather than getting bogged down in why he did it.

 

[kmag]

Aviva suspends withdrawals from it's property fund. Pound hits 35 year low (into the $1.30) against the Dollar.

 

[mrklaw]

Ignore them. Threaten to call a GE if they did anything stupid. Wait until the economy was in a better position/more boomers were dead, hold a referendum then. Average life expectancy from 65 is only 16, you do this referendum even 5 years later and a third of that demographic is dead (I mean not quite because it isn't even distributed, but you get my point).

This was literally the worst time to hold this referendum. Had you done it before 2007, you'd have walked it. Done it after maybe 2017 even, you'd have walked it. There was a 10-year gap where people were hurting and looking for something to lash out at, and you do it then? Madness.

people grow old all the time - today's liberal youth are tomorrows conservative old. Waiting wouldn't help as the population is aging generally.

What would have helped would be to try and talk about the reality of the situation. Show how the newspapers have been fabricating bullshit about Europe to undermine it for years. Admit that if voters feel ignored by politics, it is as much westminster's fault as it is Europe - don't vote leave for that reason, it'll actually get worse if you put all the power in Westminster's hands.

Having a fear based campaign just played into the leave camps hands.

 

[The Friendly Monster]

So what would have happened? Tory revolt, New leader, and they would have fulfilled the referendum promise?

He made the referendum promise, it should never have been there. I absolutely believe that MPs should have some principles rather than allowing themselves to be bullied by fringe organizations with bigoted regressive views.

 

[KingSnake]

Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam 14 minutes ago

At 1922 last night @TheresaMay2016 said legal status of EU nationals in Britain guaranteed as long as British in EU countries guaranteed too

---

Good to know that all candidates now want to keep EU workers currently here, here.

Can't wait to see what's her opinion tomorrow. Then the next day. And then after she's PM.

 

[kmag]

Thing is guys, offering people things for short term political gain means that you're offering them a thing that they want. This is doubly so when that thing is a referendum, which is fundamentally about choice. In other words, we are all blaming the Cam-Man for offering people something they wanted, giving it to them and then not liking the choice. Yeah yeah, representative democracy, blah blah blah. But if what you're arguing is that he should have been more stringent in denying the will of the people (as their representative) then I think y'all should be more forthcoming in making that your argument, rather than getting bogged down in why he did it.

If you offered the electorate a referendum for the government to give them all £1 million quid, each they'd take it. You'd trash the economy but it'd be the will of the people and all that. Direct democracy doesn't work when the electorate has to be presented with complex issues in simple reductionist terms.

 

[shinra-bansho]

Politicians regularly ignore the opinions of the ignorant masses. Rightly. If you put it to a referendum whether taxes should be abolished, yes would probably win. They also often ignore the opinion of the collective expert consensus. Case in point. This stupidity.

 

[King Gilga]

So what happened to make the £ fall even lower?

 

[TheChaos0]

The only real issue I have with Cameron is not listening to Sturgeon when she said there should be caveats on the referendum. However, I'm betting that deep down, he genuinely didn't think people would be this daft.

I don't think he thought it was even a possibility for him to lose the referendum. Hence why there were no sanity checks on the referendum result or any kind of contingency plan if Leave would win.

 

[CyclopsRock]

What would also have helped would have been young people actually voting. If (and that's a fairly big If, admittedly) demographic trends held out and the voteshare was equal amongst those demographics, Remain would have won. Young people don't vote, and therefore they lose.

 

[Camp Freddie]

Civics is probably a more accurate term for what I suspect he means.

This. My generation weren't even taught basics like how laws are passed and what the role of the house of lords is. No-one taught us how the EU worked, despite me taking my GCSE's around the time of the Maastricht treaty.
This is why you get the majority of UK citizens not understanding what the MEP elections are for (and not voting) and going on to believe that the EU is run by unelected bureaucrats.

Junior Doctors reject contract deal. So there's another crisis brewing.

It's okay, we'll have an extra £350m/week to pay them with soon.

 

[accel]

Politicians regularly ignore the opinions of the ignorant masses. Rightly. If you put it to a referendum whether taxes should be abolished, yes would probably win. They also often ignore the opinion of the collective expert consensus. Case in point. This stupidity.

It's much more complex.

Example: Free money? No thanks, say Swiss voters.

 

[KingSnake]

So what happened to make the £ fall even lower?

Probably the candidates for PM speaking. /jk

It's much more complex.

Example: Free money? No thanks, say Swiss voters.

Not the same thing. Most of the voters wouldn't have benefited from that.

 

[CyclopsRock]

If you offered the electorate a referendum for the government to give them all £1 million quid, each they'd take it. You'd trash the economy but it'd be the will of the people and all that. Direct democracy doesn't work when the electorate has to be presented with complex issues in simple reductionist terms.

Politicians regularly ignore the opinions of the ignorant masses. Rightly. If you put it to a referendum whether taxes should be abolished, yes would probably win. They also often ignore the opinion of the collective expert consensus. Case in point. This stupidity.

Yeah, not being a massive retard I actually do know that, guys. Thus my "representative democracy, blah blah blah." What I wanted, though, was...

"But if what you're arguing is that he should have been more stringent in denying the will of the people (as their representative) then I think y'all should be more forthcoming in making that your argument, rather than getting bogged down in why he did it."

The argument should be "The people shouldn't have a choice on this", not "He shouldn't have given the people a choice just to stave off UKIP". He shouldn't have given people a choice even if he weren't trying to stave off UKIP (yes, I agree with you!) and his staving off UKIP as his motive doesn't say anything as to the right and wrongs of the pledge. People are getting too caught up with UKIP.

 

[Alx]

So what happened to make the £ fall even lower?

I suppose it's the declaration from the Bank of England guy.

 

[GamerMax73]

He made the referendum promise, it should never have been there. I absolutely believe that MPs should have some principles rather than allowing themselves to be bullied by fringe organizations with bigoted regressive views.

Again, this dates back to the end of Thatchers reign. It was never about being bullied by Farrage and far right loons. The question had to be settled. In some ways he was the prime minister brave enough to try settle it - it back fired.

 

[shinra-bansho]

I didn't say anything about dummy Cameron. People shouldn't have had this woefully poorly informed choice. Plainly said.

 

[maquiladora]

GBP/USD 1.30...

 

[GamerMax73]

I don't think he thought it was even a possibility for him to lose the referendum. Hence why there were no sanity checks on the referendum result or any kind of contingency plan if Leave would win.

Totally this.

 

[Vagabundo]

From the GOAT of politic satires:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37iHSwA1SwE

Scarily true!

 

[JonnyDBrit]

My American school was not American history centric. Granted this was two decades ago but just arguing perception is reality is being lazy. I think part of it is the quality of the school system.

What schools in the west do suffer from is not so much a "insert country" centric curriculum, but a western centric curriculum. The focus tends to be eurocentric till the 19th-20th century where it then expands to North American history. When it covers Asia, Africa, and South America, it is from a colonial POV.

It's commonly referred to as history written by the victors or the strongest. It's similar to how we study the Romans and rarely learn about the Franks and the Germanic tribes except through the Roman point of view. No one learns a lot about the history of Africa pre mid 20th century other than the history in which European powers were involved.

It's not limited to the west either. Japan and China teach very Japan centric and Chinese centric historical curriculum in their general education that makes Western curriculum look far more broad in comparison.

Its not helped when men like Gove get to helm education, and feel the curriculum isn't nationalistic enough. His initial proposed reform for History - which thankfully met backlash and was redrafted - was to make it:
A) In chronological order. As in, it would start with prehistory and end with most recent history and politics. Anyone with a grasp of how the comprehension of history works would tell you this is the most asinine approach.
B) Definitively Britain-centric. So all the stuff above, in chronological history? Is British history, with maybe a few 'popular' exceptions that nevertheless tie into Britain (so Rome, the Vikings, the US Civil War, etc).
C) Absolutely total. Yes the subject region was narrow, but the actual number of periods to be covered? Ridiculous, because Gove wanted students to learn all of British history. Some of that shit can take up multiple school terms with current approaches, but Gove's approach would have left them with a few weeks to cycle through before going on to the next topic. It would even cover topics that, while neat and useful for understanding British history, aren't really that big of a deal in understanding the world today. Like Clive of India. I did Clive of India for my A-Levels, and I can say that it is not at all essential for people to learn - certainly not that man in particular, compared to the wider issue of the annexation of India. He's certainly no hero.

Fake edit: Oh look, I found the fucking thing. Page 165 for his history proposals, but the document in general provides an insight into how Mr. Gove thinks.

 

[CadetMahoney]

No, Cameron gambled with the future of the country for short term political gain. People are very right to blame him.

pretty much people saying he had no choice, was pressured etc. reeks of deflecting blame and damage control. A lot of it is on his shoulders.

 

[Theonik]

1.309 reached. The shoe eating is nigh.

So what happened to make the £ fall even lower?

The pound has far from reached its lowest point for the year.

 

[The Friendly Monster]

Again, this dates back to the end of Thatchers reign. It was never about being bullied by Farrage and far right loons. The question had to be settled. In some ways he was the prime minister brave enough to try settle it - it back fired.

This seems difficult to defend to me. I understand that the Tory party wasn't united on the issue, but their MPs still backed remain pretty clearly, and that's not counting the opportunist twats like Boris who defected for political gain. The fact that the referendum was a manifesto pledge surely speaks to the idea that this was done in a large part to help the Tory party in the general election.

I simply don't think the refereundum would've happened if it wasn't for UKIP.

 

[CyclopsRock]

Gonna stick my head above the parapet and say that, for the most part, knowledge and understanding of what's happened in the west and why we are where we are now is massively more useful than understanding why Cambodia is where it is now. I mean, for Cambodians the opposite is true, but to truly understand the make up of politics and the state of a society, you need to understand its history. And I'd rather understand my own than somewhere else. I don't know who Mauritius's equivalent of the Radical Liberals of the early 20th century were, but I'm glad I know about ours!

 

[GamerMax73]

This. My generation weren't even taught basics like how laws are passed and what the role of the house of lords is. No-one taught us how the EU worked, despite me taking my GCSE's around the time of the Maastricht treaty.
This is why you get the majority of UK citizens not understanding what the MEP elections are for (and not voting) and going on to believe that the EU is run by unelected bureaucrats.

Yes, this. Civics might have been a better term. But in addition, a non politically biased understanding of conservatism, liberalism, socialism, etc. Their histories and basic beliefs and principles.

I find it truly shocking the number of people who either a) don't vote because all political parties are the same. b) vote the same way as their parents. c) vote the opposite to their parents.

I'm not sure its good enough to say it's the political parties job to engage more with the electorate.

 

[Elaugaufein]

Again, this dates back to the end of Thatchers reign. It was never about being bullied by Farrage and far right loons. The question had to be settled. In some ways he was the prime minister brave enough to try settle it - it back fired.

The thing is a result the other way still wouldn't have settled things unless it had been absolutely decisive in a way that he can't have realistic believed would happen. If the count had merely been reversed there'd be agitation again by the next election at the latest. The only way issues like this are truly settled is when the outcome that burns everything to the ground is inevitably eventually selected.

 

[Rodelero]

people grow old all the time - today's liberal youth are tomorrows conservative old. Waiting wouldn't help as the population is aging generally.

What would have helped would be to try and talk about the reality of the situation. Show how the newspapers have been fabricating bullshit about Europe to undermine it for years. Admit that if voters feel ignored by politics, it is as much westminster's fault as it is Europe - don't vote leave for that reason, it'll actually get worse if you put all the power in Westminster's hands.

Having a fear based campaign just played into the leave camps hands.

I see a lot of people complaining about the 'fear based' campaign - but I've never seen anyone come up with what an alternative would really look like. It's hard to fight a positive campaign for the status quo, if not straight up impossible. We all know what living in the EU is like, some people like it and some point don't. It's not like there weren't positive statements made about the EU and immigration throughout the campaign, but those statements simply don't play with a base that is distrusting, cynical, conservative, aged, and to some extent xenophobic and downright racist.

There are some arguments where it's hard to run a positive campaign. If the choice is between setting your house alight and not setting your house alight, you can be damned sure that the "Don't Set It On Fire" campaign will focus on all the bad things that will happen.

 

[GamerMax73]

The fact that the referendum was a manifesto pledge surely speaks to the idea that this was done in a large part to help the Tory party in the general election.

I simply don't think the refereundum would've happened if it wasn't for UKIP.

Actually, I can agree with this. My feelings are, though, that it was a deeper issue and thus it's hard to narrowly lay the blame at Cameron's feet. He was in the position history put him in.

 

[kmag]

From twitter.

 

[Niwa]

I'm not good with numbers, is it more profitable to exchange EUR to GBP now? Im having a trip to the UK in 2 months and thought i might get the money beforehand this time… so would now be a good time?

 

[Theonik]

I'm not good with numbers, is it more profitable to exchange EUR to GBP now? Im having a trip to the UK in 2 months and thought i might get the money beforehand this time… so would now be a good time?

If it keeps falling the closer you exchange to your trip the better the rate you're gonna get. If it rises you are better off exchanging as soon as possible.

Most likely scenario is it keeps falling for the next 2 months. But as with everything you can't know 100%

 

[ss1]

I'm not good with numbers, is it more profitable to exchange EUR to GBP now? Im having a trip to the UK in 2 months and thought i might get the money beforehand this time… so would now be a good time?

I'd wait to be honest. At this rate 1 pound may easily be worth 1 euro.

 

[The Friendly Monster]

Actually, I can agree with this. My feelings are, though, that it was a deeper issue and thus it's hard to narrowly lay the blame at Cameron's feet. He was in the position history put him in.

True, it can't just be blamed on Cameron, but I think he acted spinelessly given the situation and shouldn't be excused.