Also should be said that the very display of the polls can easily change the outcome.
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The UK votes to leave the European Union |OUT2| Mayday, Mayday, I've lost an ARM
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Also should be said that the very display of the polls can easily change the outcome.
Hey guys, my friend and I have been arguing on and off for the last several days about the Brexit vote. My friend wholeheartedly believes that leaving the EU is the best option, with practically zero downsides.
Are there any convincing YouTube videos I could show him that might cause him to change his mind? I've given up reasoning based on what I know.
Are there any convincing YouTube videos I could show him that might cause him to change his mind? I've given up reasoning based on what I know.
What specific arguments does he have for his belief? (As in, what does he value that he considers will be improved by leaving the EU?)
He thinks that the EU is overbearing and corrupt, and that members of the EU are not beholden to pass laws that are in Britain's best interest. He also firmly believes that the UK should kick out all immigrants.
He's apparently a big fan of Douglas Murray.
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
This video by Professor Michael Dougan from the University of Liverpool is a pretty good very general video about problems with how the Leave campaign was both conducted and what consequences it has now that it has won. However, it's probably a bit dry for some people and, like gerg asked, it would probably be more efficient if you mentioned some specific concerns your friend has and you addressed those instead.
Depending on who you ask a lot of people might not disagree with this. The left will fault the EU for its imposition of austerity, for example, while individual countries within the EU would benefit from changes to its structure of policy that currently benefit others. But I think it is best to challenge this not so much by saying that the EU as a whole isn't overbearing, but that it is perhaps more accurate to suggest that the structure of the EU (as it currently exists) allows it to favour certain countries over others. (So, Germany benefits from a strong Euro while Italy might benefit from a cheap Euro; similarly, countries in Eastern Europe might have interests more closely aligned with those of Britain that are presently ignored in favour of those held by Germany and France.)
[Edit: Regarding Britain specifically, it is also the case that it is Britain that has the most opt-outs to EU membership conditions compared to others.)
This is not true, but is probably best exemplified by a comparison with similar structures and governments. But here by "corrupt" your friend might be implicitly stating some kind of anti-establishment or anti-elite sentiment.
Again, this isn't necessarily untrue, nor unique to Britain within the EU. But that is the point of the EU: countries sacrifice a certain degree of autonomy in the belief that collective action will benefit them more than acting individually might. (You will gain more commerce if you can make one deal for 300 million people than six deals for 50 million people each.) It is ultimately a question of whether the positives outweigh the negatives.
At this point you could stress the importance (both economically and culturally) immigrants play within British life, but I imagine that this belief is not unrelated to other concerns. If it has been caused by a feeling of the deterioration of public services then you'd want to highlight how often it is UK government policy that most actively and acutely diminishes them.
IdreamofHIME
Member
Early Asian lows probably to be followed by afternoon worldwide blows.
But let the Tories enjoy their little power struggle.
andythinkpad
Member
What do you want to call it? "The Battle of European Union?" "The Last Stand?" "The Federal Referendum?"
anonymous_abc
Member
Thank you for the in-depth response! I really appreciate it.
dragonelite
Member
Something something sounds like a expert part of project fear...
Have you decided yet on which shoe of yours you will be consuming?
Given that it's youtube, I'm assuming the comments say exactly that.
-Plasma Reus-
Service guarantees member status
'The referendum on the EU' seems fine to me!
WaterAstro
Member
It's actually more worrying that the yen is benefiting from the pound dropping. We thought the industry might be affected by the pound, but a high yen is going to be more troublesome.
1.28963 at the moment.
How low can you go? How low can you go?
We're lucky that the oil price isn't shooting up because we'd be talking about massive amounts of inflationary pressure hitting the system over the next couple of months. At the moment the inflationary pressure is only going to be large, and in the current circumstances I doubt that wages will come anywhere near to matching.
How low can you go? How low can you go?
We're lucky that the oil price isn't shooting up because we'd be talking about massive amounts of inflationary pressure hitting the system over the next couple of months. At the moment the inflationary pressure is only going to be large, and in the current circumstances I doubt that wages will come anywhere near to matching.
Chittagong
Gold Member
Wow, it broke through 1.30, that was a pretty significant support level. My buy order is at 1.25, I don't expect it to go much lower than 1.20.
anonymous_abc
Member
Will you eat a shoe if it does?
After a recent trip I found thirty dollars in my wallet. Not gonna change them back cos I'll lose money! Helps that I'll be travelling again soon.
30yearsofhurt
Member
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Havel needs to eat his shoes as of 22:53 yesterday. At 2:05 this morning the pound was less than 1% away from its lowest ever value since 1792, but backed off a little.
But we're fine, guys, we're fine. It's not like this isn't even the worst because quite a few US investors don't even think we'll trigger Article 50; we're all good here.
But we're fine, guys, we're fine. It's not like this isn't even the worst because quite a few US investors don't even think we'll trigger Article 50; we're all good here.
electroshockwave
Member
I thought someone suggested a nice pair of loafers.
That would be such a coward's way out
It would be pretty bad if they ignored the referendum. Just not quite as bad as leaving the EU.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
It's also worth noting tht the US and UK governments only stopped interfering with the pound-GBP float in 1992, with the late 80s/early 90s affected by the Plaza Accord. So this is really the worst ever open market value.
Yes it would be autocracy . ( just like now but ''open'')
As much as I would disagree with a decision to not go forward with the result of the referendum, a consultative referendum not being acted upon as if binding and the democratically elected parliament rejecting its outcome is an incredibly long way from autocracy.
electroshockwave
Member
Seems appropriate considering the Leave campaigners then.That would be such a coward's way out
There is allways the fear of precedence in this antitrust eu climate , in other circumstances the parlament could had nullifeid it with other more subtle way .
And the number of people who vote it make it very dangerous to temper with the results .
I personaly would liked a referendum which asked more direct vote for the technocrats of Bruxelles because the political climate at least in Germany , Greece , Italy is not looking very bright toward the europarlament and especialy toward the other institutions whom peopel dont even know that exist . I think this could had helped all the eu not only Britain .
accel
Member
What I can make so far of the two future options:
* May - the worst fear is that under her we just exit the EU into a sub-EU (EEA) and live there until the next crisis;
* Leadsom - the worst fear is that we exit fast, oh, yeah, and by doing that fast and mindlessly we just lose too much.
Not a good choice.
* May - the worst fear is that under her we just exit the EU into a sub-EU (EEA) and live there until the next crisis;
* Leadsom - the worst fear is that we exit fast, oh, yeah, and by doing that fast and mindlessly we just lose too much.
Not a good choice.
I mean, I would prefer it if the European parliament was simply put in a supreme position within the EU rather than the European Council (the heads of government) being such. Additionally, I would prefer the European parliament being elected in a single election with proportional representation rather than the ridiculous per country voting. It would vastly improve the transparency of the EU. That however is the exact opposite of what most people opposed to European unity desire.
I also don't disagree with the additional trust that would be lost by going against the result of the referendum. In fact, that is why I oppose going against it. That said, using the term autocracy is absolutely absurd. By rejecting the result of one referendum, Britain does not turn into Tsarist Russia.
Of course your right i'm just trying to see the things from the other spectrum .
The worst part of it is that so many people actualy bealive that europarlament is ruling in autocratic way .
I hope with the british vote all eu and europe take action toward better informing people what eu acctualy is because there is a very very deep misconception at the moment before taking political action which need so long time to implement .
Helensmith
Member
A significant portion of Leave voters are the violent rioter type.
the OAPs would write thousands of letters to the Daily Mail in anger. You are referring to the EDL/UKIP/Britain First , I assume?
I doubt it's a very significant portion, at the same time, you don't need that many for there to be violent riots.
Bananajama
Banned
The Government pledged to honour the result. It'd do lasting damage to democracy in this country if that pledge was broken.
QuicheFontaine
Member
Also the Quiche system is two for two now on recent referenda!
shinra-bansho
Member
The service sector PMI was reasonably robust, but it basically only covered pre-Brexit. So the next release in August will be a test. Although I'm sure something in the interim could set it tumbling.
Do you worry that there would be lasting damage to democracy caused by the government taking an action foreseeably and visibly destructive to its own citizens because they voted for it?
Genuine question.
Pyramid head
Banned
I'm not convinced the consequences for ignoring the referendum would be any worse than whatever happens once it sinks into leave voters skulls that they're not getting any of the things they believed they were being promised anyway, so why throw the entire country onto a bonfire for no reason whatsoever?
Since when has a government breaking promises not been completely par for the course? I reckon a good portion of leave voters ticked their box, got warm fuzzy feelings once they learned that they 'had their country back', and have since forgotten all about it. Whether or not the government actually goes through with it probably hasn't crossed their mind.
Auto-Reply
Member
Selfish politicians, they care more about themselves than the people and country. Causing riots would be political suicide, so they wont dismiss the referendum outright. People calm down and forget to be angry after a while though so maybe they'll try the wait and see approach.
Actually going through with leaving the EU would probably be the easiest way for them, lot's of people get what they have voted for, the other side is reasonable enough to not light up the city streets over this and the negative effects this will have wont be felt immediably. So when the public realises that this was a bad idea overall, they (the politicians) are out of the deep water and (maybe) still in power.
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