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The UK votes to leave the European Union |OUT2| Mayday, Mayday, I've lost an ARM
- Thread starter Hasney
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Silly, privatising the nhs will never be voted on.
That'll be why the pound is plummeting against the Dollar at the moment. Somethings got the currency market spooked.
Dangerously close to shoe-eating territory.
PdotMichael
Banned
Strange that the market never reacts well after Brexit related news.
We already passed shoe eating, albeit briefly.
The market never reacts rationally to anything. You could cause a crash or a buying frenzy by throwing different types of stuffed animal into the middle of the stock exchange.
frontieruk
Member
So your saying I should buy shares in AMD?
Depends whether we throw a stuffed cat in there or a purple elephant with a bell in it.
frontieruk
Member
RedSparrows
Member
Immigration wins again. Shut the door, that'll fix everything. Fuck everything else, the details and that.
But we can't talk about it!!!
But we can't talk about it!!!
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
The issue with this is that a majority in Northern Ireland and Scotland really don't want to leave. As someone who likes the EU in most ways, but not in its lack of immigration controls, I don't know if it's worth it, frankly. Being in the EU is ultimately a boon for the economy, and it's pretty vital to keep Northern Ireland and Scotland happy for the Union. The Better Together campaign and the 1998 Good Friday Agreement made it pretty clear that majorities in both areas want to be part of the UK....with certain compromises. I think the EU is probably one of those consequences, and that Scotland and Northern Ireland are going to try to stop this departure if at all possible on a legal level.
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/northern-irelands-attorney-general-could-become-involved-in-legal-bid-to-stop-uk-departure-from-eu-35054442.html
The open border in Northern Ireland is also an issue because migrants could reach the UK through it. However, it's probably not politically tenable to restart border controls...Not sure how this will work.
If the EU hadn't been so stubborn on pretty much free migration this wouldn't have happened, guaranteed.
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/northern-irelands-attorney-general-could-become-involved-in-legal-bid-to-stop-uk-departure-from-eu-35054442.html
The open border in Northern Ireland is also an issue because migrants could reach the UK through it. However, it's probably not politically tenable to restart border controls...Not sure how this will work.
If the EU hadn't been so stubborn on pretty much free migration this wouldn't have happened, guaranteed.
Royal_Phalanx
Member
"Hurr durr immigration more important than the economy" is what our trash politicians think now. Sigh. Without free movement it wouldn't be a single market in the EU. It would be something less economically connected without it. There is already EU immigration control. You need a job and you need to be able to support yourself if you don't have a job. I love free movement. I know a bunch of people who would never have got their jobs without it. I'm looking at moving to mainland Europe at some point myself. Too late for me, I fear.
Royal_Phalanx
Member
This is the worst part about having to take 2 more years to graduate...
I'm thinking of just dropping out of my masters' degree and concentrate on finding work and bettering myself. Gotta at least try to make use of free movement whilst it still exists. Especially now since I don't really see a future here anymore because of our economically suicidal politics and it's clear my values don't align with those of the country anymore. Stay and fight, you may say. But it seems hopeless. I give up.
Just missed it, closed in the US at 1.30002
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
Right, but it's not surprising that an island nation would want to decide which foreigners to let in and which to keep out. Many here don't usually complain about far more homogeneous and anti-immigrant countries like Japan, but the UK wanting to take that control back about who they let in is apparently a big issue because it's in the West.... It's hypocritical. It's also ironic because the UK will happily take people from former colonies...when the UK gets to decide who gets in. Yet, apparently being selective and proper about it is too much for Brussels...Frankly I'm not surprised that England and Wales told Brussels what they thought of them, I just wish they hadn't.
The issue really is that it's not worth creating problems with the economy and the Union, imo. Compromise is good, in fact the EU even subscribes to it in principle in that the UK pretty much has a permanent "out" of any further EU sovereignty integration, which would have been used regardless of a remain vote winning. But that's not the point. It was obvious how this vote was going to go in Northern Ireland and Scotland, and it could create issues in both as each area has majorities who are pro-EU. Telling Brussels off was not worth the effect on the economy, or the potential effect on the Union.
The UK has the right to kick out EU immigrants if they can'T sustain their livelyhood in the UK (i.e. having a job that pays enough to contribute to the economy) after 3 month IIRC. What more do you want?
1) I see Australia getting a lot of backlash for its policies.
2) Japan is very isolationist. But then again, their economy doesn't rely on banking access to say Korea, and their health and manual labour force isn't heavily relying on koreans.
Royal_Phalanx
Member
The UK has the right to kick out EU immigrants if they can'T sustain their livelyhood in the UK (i.e. having a job that pays enough to contribute to the economy) after 3 month IIRC. What more do you want?
1) I see Australia getting a lot of backlash for its policies.
2) Japan is very isolationist. But then again, their economy doesn't rely on banking access to say Korea, and their health and manual labour force isn't heavily relying on koreans.
Exactly, it's a requirement for you to be able to support yourself for three months or get a job. So no 'freeloading' like the Daily Mail says. It's not the EU's fault the UK can't be bothered to implement the rules, even with Theresa May who we all know talks tough. Also yeah, Japan wasn't part of a close economic and loosely political union for 40 years either. With the new Etias ESTA like system the EU will implement at some point the EU is actually controlling migration from outside the EU more these days.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
The UK has the right to kick out EU immigrants if they can'T sustain their livelyhood in the UK (i.e. having a job that pays enough to contribute to the economy) after 3 month IIRC. What more do you want?
1) I see Australia getting a lot of backlash for its policies.
2) Japan is very isolationist. But then again, their economy doesn't rely on banking access to say Korea, and their health and manual labour force isn't heavily relying on koreans.
Immigration control, like an actual sovereign state, like the vast majority of sovereign states on Earth...
1) Australia is in the West, of course they're going to get flack from the far left....You seem to be confused that it is not actually used as a purely geographical term.
2) So you want to make the UK more isolationist by not compromising? Brussels already did that, congratulations! The UK wants what it wants, and doesn't want what it doesn't want. That an island nation off the coast of Northwestern Europe would be isolated enough that they want to limit the number of Eastern Europeans coming in is not really that surprising. But apparently it's okay to the far-left that Japan treats migrants like shit, because...Japanese people aren't European.
Also, that dismissive meme doesn't make it not true, in fact, the meme probably applies more to your denial of this simple fact. The UK doesn't really have to take anyone from former colonies, but there are now very large Asian and Africa (often via the Caribbean) minorities in England in particular. It's not a desire to stop immigration, it's a desire to decide as a sovereign country who is allowed in and who is not.
MSN comments are literally the worst, and the worst part is that the racism doesn't even try to mask itself as trolling...
What the hell are you talking about?
What the hell are you talking about?
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/community/2014/06/18/voices/japans-immigration-principle-looking-solid-ever/
If this was a formerly relatively homogeneous Northern European country, then the far left would be screaming that it's racist, all the fucking time.
I'm out of here, no point arguing with people who won't compromise. After all, some of them in Brussels are what started this mess in the first place.
RedSparrows
Member
I'd be fine with the argument about sovereignty if I genuinely believed people understood the substantive points pertaining to immigration, benefits, employment and the reason why free movement exists as part of the single market.
But I don't. You only have to look at our papers to see that.
Also, wtf does this have to do with Japan? Go nuts about them if you like, or not. The 'far left'? Which one? Ad nauseum...
But I don't. You only have to look at our papers to see that.
Also, wtf does this have to do with Japan? Go nuts about them if you like, or not. The 'far left'? Which one? Ad nauseum...
I don't know who this "far-left" is, but Japan's racism issue stems from how they treat 3rd-4th generation Korean and how the seafood industry takes advantage of migrant workers. At the same time, Japanese right-wing government is having a huge struggle with an aging society which would should be remedied with immigration ~ so much that foreign workers are being encouraged.
If you watched TV from Japan today, almost every day you will have a problem made specifically to try to be inclusive by educating people on different cultures and migrants working within Japan ~ it's something that's on set to improvement.
Not to mention that the rest of Asia see Japan as being controlled by the US, with their inability to do anything drastic to the shit that happens in US Military bases etc.
You know nothing of the situation over there but I'm telling you, it isn't "fuck migrants".
A lot of those "asian migrants" you are talking about are up to 3rd generation British. What the hell has race got to do with it here? And Asian? What does that have to do with the EU? The UK could always limit outside of EU immigration if they wanted ~
EDIT: little do you fucking know about the different races and cultures within Japan but let's not even bother.
1) Sorry to disappoint you, but "The West" isn't a clear cut definition. It can mean only EU, EU + US, EU + US + Canada + Austriala... I just took another isalosianist developed Island (there aren't that many...)
2) Did you even read what I wrote? The UK is getting a backlash for its immigration and EU criticism because it fucking need the EU and immigration to even work correctly. Which isn't the case of Japan.
(and personally, yes, I don't like the japanese stance, but at least they aren't hypocrite enough to be dependent on immigration (for now)).
To answer what you wrote: why the hell should the UK have the cake and eat it? Free movement of people is an integral and necessary part of the common market.
3) I was laughing because I can't imagine that little englanders would be too happy with a (even bigger) flood of indian, malesian or nigerian immigrants.
History (old and recent) and economic and political position plays a part in how a country and its actions is perceived, shocking.
Royal_Phalanx
Member
The immigration system isn't going to be any fairer because of Brexit. If you want 'tens of thousands only' then it will be ludicrously hard for EVERYONE.
This. Outside of EU Migration will increase if we somehow had to stop the benefits of EU Migrants.
But nevermind, I'm sick of the brexit camp trying to avoid claims of being racist when every damn news story posted on MSN.com is filled with comments like "fuck the BoE Govenor, he's Canadian, we left the EU for a reason!"
EDIT: @EleventhHourSuperpower I'm not interested in having this discussion via PM, so if you want to continue it or judge my "reading comprehension" you can address it in this thread. Thanks for pointing out btw, how insignificant Ainu are just because there are few of them.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
Okay, this is too egregious to not respond to. After this, I'm out.
No, no, this wouldn't happen, but considering that essentially zero have to be allowed, it's clear if you had actually read what I typed you would understand that being able to limit the number of immigrants is important. Eastern Europeans are quite different from the more indigenous people in the British Isles too... And frankly, if the UK wanted zero immigrants period, then the UK should get that. Also, Syrian migrants are quite a bit more different in culture from Britons than people from former (and current) British dependencies in the Carribean, that I can assure you.
Also, it's Malaysian, not "malesian", good lord...
Why are you bringing race into this, that's what I want to know. Immigration can be discussed without trying to separate people due to their ethnicity.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
I'm saying that migrants from Eastern Europe (and more importantly, Syria in Asia), are actually less likely to assimilate than someone from say, Jamacia, who the UK can be more selective about anyways as they're outside the EU.
The fact that there is diverse and external (that is, to the EU) immigration to the UK, and that it wasn't the issue here is proof that it's not about race, it's about a flood.
(English isn't my first language, so yeah, I'll make some typing errors, sorry for being of a lesser rac... country)
Yes, so what you actually wanted to say was that the UK would be happy to welcome skilled immigrants (like pretty much every country in the world). Which, by the way, made up a good chunk of this bloody EU immigration you want to cut.
But what you actually wrote is "It's also ironic because the UK will happily take people from former colonies..." Last I checked, I only cited former british colonies, so you should be happy to take them in, right? Which you clearly don'T, hence my "dismissive meme".
Why the fuck do you include Syria in the EU migration? Do you even know what you'Re talking about?
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
Here we go again. I said that Syria is in Asia, in that very sentence. The EU places burdens on member states not to deport Syrian migrants. Case in point:
http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/09/13/ahead-of-u-n-summit-luxembourg-suggests-hungary-should-leave-the-eu/
So yes, I had to include Syria there. If you knew what you were talking about you wouldn't have flipped out over it....
I'm going to be really edgy right now and say it is the rest of England that doesn't seem to want to assimilate to London's culture of acceptance and diversity. Especially considering we should thank the city for keeping this country as rich as you'd like it to be.
I'm sorry that I don't want to talk objectively about which cultures "assimilate" more than others. I'm not interested in that conversation. We can talk about the pressures of immigration on a country without resorting to this.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Most people I know who consider themselves left do worry about the attitude that Japan has towards non-Japanese ethnic groups. It's just that the cultural, political and social ties between Japan and the United Kingdom are much weaker than those between Australia and the United Kingdom. The former are separated by language, history, religion; the latter are our relative national cousins; so it's much easier to become invested in the troubles of the latter than the former. You worry more about those close to you, in the way that you probably worry more about your aunt's problems with alcohol than the alcoholism of a stranger you met only the once at a work meeting.
We were talking about EU immigration.
You shifted to war refugees, that is not the same thing.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
It is impossible to talk about the reasons that a majority of English and Welsh voters had for leaving without bringing that up.
Fantastic, that's pretty much all I ask. If you disagree with me, that's absolutely fine, just be consistent about it. Non-Western countries should not get a free pass here.
The UK is and always has been a sovereign country. Freedom of movement was in the treaties it chose to sign up to. It could have vetoed the accession countries (you know instead of being actually being their biggest supporters). All international treaties including the precious trade deals that Fox and co will be desperately dropping their drawers for involve some limitations on sovereignty (and even then it's not so much a limitation as simply stated consequences: you are still sovereign, you can choose to ignore treaty provisions if you are willing to pay the consequence of doing so but in practice all agreements with another party put limits on your rational ability to act).
The UK economies recent growth has been largely fuelled by immigration. We've a low productivity economy with a below workforce replacement birthrate and a rapidly aging population who are given relatively expensive social provision. Immigration is the only thing ticking it over, if you think it's stopping I've got some magic beans to sell you (British magic beans of course)
And since greater than 50% of UK immigration is from the rest of the world you know the part we didn't abrogate 'control' over via treaty then I'm not really sure what the Brexiteers think is about to happen.
Essentially the entire immigration argument can be boiled down to stupid bigoted fuckers who either don't understand the issues or choose not to because it panders to their the deep seated prejudices blaming their woes on the 'other'. Aside from some per sector issues with wages pretty much everything laid at the feet of immigration (strain on services etc) is a result of insufficient government planning and resourcing. But no, some English twats are a upset by having to walk past a Polish sklep on their half empty main street know better. Completely worthwhile cutting ourselves off from the market which delivers a fair chunk of our GDP.
And as pointed out numerous times, it is a pretty idiotic reason to vote out, as the UK already has control of non-EU migration (which is why the jungle in Calais exists).
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Question: what do you do with Syrian refugees that arrive on British shores? I hope I'm not overstretching, but you seem to want to deport them. Where to, and why?
Without being mean, I think you've constructed yourself a rather poor strawman here. I don't think anyone has ever given Japan a free pass. It's just: we're citizens of the United Kingdom and are naturally more concerned about these issues when they apply to our own state than we are for a rather distant state we have little personal experience of. I don't think this is a very complex concept and it baffles me this didn't strike you as obvious to begin with.
Did everyone else get a different ballot to me, one that said "Do you want to remain in the EU or restrict immigration further?"
The fuck are you on about? Japans problems with racism (not to mention sexism and homophobia) are brought up whenever those sort of conversations come up. Nobody on the "far-left" (which I'm gonna guess for you is anyone to the Left of Ken Clarke) thinks that shit is ok.
But we're talking about the EU and the UK in this thread, the clue is kinda in the title. If you want to discuss Japanese culture's reprehensible homogeneity I suggest you create a thread about it.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
Actually, it does not entirely.
http://www.independent.co.uk/europe/eu-rule-change-puts-pressure-on-uk-to-take-more-refugees
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/636319/Britain-could-be-open-to-more-migrants-as-EU-expected-to-scrap-asylum-arrangement
Nice try, though.
It is not a purely geographical term. Educate yourself on it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_world
Australia is also considered to be a "global north" country. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North%E2%80%93South_divide
Okay, now I'm out of here for real.
Again, asylum seeker =/= immigrant.
Educate yourself on it.
Because unless you plan to send back every syrian asylum seeker to Syria (you know, into war), leaving the EU won't change much on that front.
The comments on that page are some of the worst I have ever seen =( ...
Express gon express.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
Apologies for causing so much passion. I enjoy political debate and compromise. I legitimately didn't mean to say anything provocative. I am actually a liberal in principle, I just think that countries should be able to control immigration to a significant extent. That idea of sovereignty doesn't really mesh with deeper EU integration.
I agree with you. Some people
I agree with you. Some people
RedSparrows
Member
It's indicative of just how mucked up the UK's perception of immigration is that on the one hand people seem to believe there's 'no control', and then the Jungle shows 'we're being invaded'. Why are they there if there's no control? How are we being invaded if this relatively small amount of people aren't getting in?!. Schroedinger's immigrant, model 2.
Again and again, sovereignty is brought up. I empathise with it as an idea, but I do not for one second think most of the population, myself included tbqf, understands it as a living, political concept in a globalised world. It's being used to legitimise a view about the way we need to go that throws the baby out with the bath water, and runs with the 'IMMIGRANT BAD' mandate which apparently the EU referendum result has been construed to primarily mean. Everything will be fine, there are no downsides, why were we even in the EU anyway? Beats me!
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