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[BigAl1992]

The comments on that page are some of the worst I have ever seen =( ...

Some of the stuff I have seen from the express and the comments on that site have been nothing short of disgraceful. Now I have no problem with London, and I say that as someone who once immigrated there as a child with my parents. But as for the rest of England after all of this cropped up? No thank you. It's shown a much more distasteful side to the country to me that I want to steer well clear of.

 

[kmag]

Actually, it does not entirely.

http://www.independent.co.uk/europe/eu-rule-change-puts-pressure-on-uk-to-take-more-refugees

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/636319/Britain-could-be-open-to-more-migrants-as-EU-expected-to-scrap-asylum-arrangement

Nice try, though.



It is not a purely geographical term. Educate yourself on it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_world

Australia is also considered to be a "global north" country. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North%E2%80%93South_divide

Okay, now I'm out of here for real.

Actually it does. Any Syrian refugees (the 20,000 over 5 years) will only be resettled by agreement. There is absolutely nothing in any article of the EU which forces countries to take on refugees, hence all the horsetrading in the current crisis. Even the Dublin agreement is essentially just a formulation between countries to allow the return of refugees to their first point of entry.

The UK's only responsibility for refugees is the same responsibility it has under the UN. Inside the EU it can simply return any refugee to the first EU country they arrived in. Outside of the EU, if that asylum seeker walked across Europe and got across the channel it's the UK who's on the hook for processing them.

 

[Jackpot]

Asylum seekers != refugees != EU migrants != non-EU migrants != tourists != foreign students

It is not a purely geographical term. Educate yourself on it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_world

Australia is also considered to be a "global north" country. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North%E2%80%93South_divide

Okay, now I'm out of here for real.

The fact that you think only far-left extremists could hate on Australia's immigration system (which the communist UN condemned for its systematic torture), or that the far-left must hate the West seemed slightly more disturbing than your fit over geographic terms.

 

[Pancake Mix]

Actually it does. Any Syrian refugees (the 20,000 over 5 years) will only be resettled by agreement. There is absolutely nothing in any article of the EU which forces countries to take on refugees, hence all the horsetrading in the current crisis. Even the Dublin agreement is essentially just a formulation between countries to allow the return of refugees to their first point of entry.

The UK's only responsibility for refugees is the same responsibility it has under the UN. Inside the EU it can simply return any refugee to the first EU country they arrived in. Outside of the EU, if that asylum seeker walked across Europe and got across the channel it's the UK who's on the hook for processing them.

Looked into this a bit further...you're mostly right.

Well to be fair, I wouldn't have actually voted leave in a million years in the first place, so me being misinformed in that regard was of little consequence.

The fact that you think only far-left extremists could hate on Australia's immigration system (which the communist UN condemned for its systematic torture), or that the far-left must hate the West seemed slightly more disturbing than your fit over geographic terms.

Australia can decline whomever it wants. You're only talking about the most extreme of cases and extrapolating it to the whole system, that's absurd.

 

[Principate]

Here we go again. I said that Syria is in Asia, in that very sentence. The EU places burdens on member states not to deport Syrian migrants. Case in point:

http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/09/13/ahead-of-u-n-summit-luxembourg-suggests-hungary-should-leave-the-eu/

So yes, I had to include Syria there. If you knew what you were talking about you wouldn't have flipped out over it....

You realise refugee's are protected under the geneva covention.

 

[Pancake Mix]

You realise refugee's are protected under the geneva covention.

Actually, you're referring to a different agreement in Geneva, specifically, a later convention just about refugees. That's not usually what people mean when they are referring to the Geneva Convention. Edit: Or Conventions, really.

Regardless, posting horror stories does not mean that they are the norm.

 

[frontieruk]

Actually, you're referring to a different agreement in Geneva, specifically, a later convention just about refugees. That's not usually what people mean when they are referring to the Geneva Convention. Edit: Or Conventions, really.

Regardless, posting horror stories does not mean that they are the norm.

Nor does the reiteration that England is losing its identity due to immigrants, it just perpetuates the image that instead of reasonable people who think about consequences of actions, we're a bunch of skin headed football hooligans wanting our next beer, tits on page 3 and a return to our empire when we could compete in the manufacturing and mining industries instead of realising those days are gone and retrain in new skills or careers.

I always loved this article in the dailyfail

Here, in the city of my birth, it occurs to me for a moment that I am now the stranger — excluded by language and culture. Certainly, the Southampton of my childhood has altered beyond recognition.

Nearly ten years have passed since Poland joined the EU in May 2004, allowing workers to migrate here in search of work. Southampton now has more Polish inhabitants than any other city outside London.

Most recent figures show that there are now 25,000 Poles living in the city. With a population of around 240,000, that means more than one in ten is Polish.

Indeed, meeting and speaking to the Poles who have settled here, what is striking is just how self-reliant and aspirational they are.

Conversely, the men I see propped up in the doorway of The Shirley Hotel Pub in the midday sun, with a pint in one hand and a cigarette in the other, are British, not Polish.

Similarly, the harassed mothers with toddlers and babies, manhandling their buggies through the doors of the local McDonald’s, are screeching at their children in English, not Polish.

 

[kitch9]

I'm going to be really edgy right now and say it is the rest of England that doesn't seem to want to assimilate to London's culture of acceptance and diversity. Especially considering we should thank the city for keeping this country as rich as you'd like it to be.

I'm sorry that I don't want to talk objectively about which cultures "assimilate" more than others. I'm not interested in that conversation. We can talk about the pressures of immigration on a country without resorting to this.

The lower earning migrants don't tend to end up in London. London like any capital city is diverse in population but also shielded from some of the social problems that are arising from large numbers of low skilled migrants moving to areas with much lower living costs.

 

[kitch9]

Nor does the reiteration that England is losing its identity due to immigrants, it just perpetuates the image that instead of reasonable people who think about consequences of actions, we're a bunch of skin headed football hooligans wanting our next beer, tits on page 3 and a return to our empire when we could compete in the manufacturing and mining industries instead of realising those days are gone and retrain in new skills or careers.

I always loved this article in the dailyfail

The Polish are ideal migrants I find, fastidious and meticulous seems to be part of their psyche.

They seem to have to deal with a lot of aggression from those from other Eastern European countries anyone know why that is?

 

[QuicheFontaine]

And since greater than 50% of UK immigration is from the rest of the world you know the part we didn't abrogate 'control' over via treaty then I'm not really sure what the Brexiteers think is about to happen.

Well this thread has been an interesting read this morning!

Sorry to selectively quote here kmag, but I see this point brought up quite a bit and it's not a good one imo. Yes, non-EU immigration is roughly the same in absolute numbers as EU immigration, but:
i) obviously the non-EU immigration is from a much larger pool;
ii) onerous requirements are placed on non-EU migrants; and
iii) placing those same requirements on EU migrants would surely result in a reduction in their numbers.

 

[kmag]

Well this thread has been an interesting read this morning!

Sorry to selectively quote here kmag, but I see this point brought up quite a bit and it's not a good one imo. Yes, non-EU immigration is roughly the same in absolute numbers as EU immigration, but:
i) obviously the non-EU immigration is from a much larger pool;
ii) onerous requirements are placed on non-EU migrants; and
iii) placing those same requirements on EU migrants would surely result in a reduction in their numbers.

My point is it largely doesn't matter, the rough total numbers are needed to keep a rather moribund economy with large structural issues in productivity (low productivity means you need to throw more people into the workforce for every bit of additional output) ticking over.

 

[Number45]

Hammond Said to Be Ready to Ditch EU Single-Market on Brexit



Well, the UK had a good run.

Yo, government? FUCK your credibility, do what's right for the country.

 

[Joni]

The United Kingdom could refuse immigrants that don't have jobs and they could refuse immigrants that have a criminal past. Other EU countries do. The United Kingdom just had no interest to do so. That isn't on the European Union. Important to stress that other countries manage this despite having no border checks which the UK does have. If you think the flow of jobs stealing immigrants is the problem, then the UK could have still easily fixed that with better laws on employment which would be better for all people living there. But again, the United Kingdom had no interest to do so.

 

[Jackpot]

Australia can decline whomever it wants. You're only talking about the most extreme of cases and extrapolating it to the whole system, that's absurd.

No, the UN conducted an exhaustive investigation and found it "rife with torture".

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...tion-system-says-pm-tony-abbott-10094742.html

What kind of sicko dismisses torture just to save face on the internet?

 

[RedSparrows]

The United Kingdom could refuse immigrants that don't have jobs and they could refuse immigrants that have a criminal past. Other EU countries do. The United Kingdom just had no interest to do so. That isn't on the European Union. Important to stress that other countries manage this despite having no border checks which the UK does have. If you think the flow of jobs stealing immigrants is the problem, then the UK could have still easily fixed that with better laws on employment which would be better for all people living there. But again, the United Kingdom had no interest to do so.

Should have been front and centre in the debate. But, of course, the pro-EU team (well, the government) had been the ones not doing this. So truth was sacrificed in favour of the populist logic. Ditto the 'votes for prisoners' thing. It was never explained in full, it was 'Ian Huntley will be able to vote'.

 

[Bleepey]

Japan is slowly dying because of their monoculture and lack of migration. Is that the bar we're aiming for now? Lol

I recall a Brexiter on my Facebook say something along the lines he enjoyed Japan's mono ethnicity and they feel no pressure to take in immigrants. I had to inform him of their huge demographic crisis.

 

[Biggzy]

My point is it largely doesn't matter, the rough total numbers are needed to keep a rather moribund economy with large structural issues in productivity (low productivity means you need to throw more people into the workforce for every bit of additional output) ticking over.

This can't be stressed enough. The UK's productivity per worker is in the shitter and has been for some time now and shows no sign of improving and the truth is that the UK's economic expansion is built on immigration.

 

[Izuna]

I recall a Brexiter on my Facebook say something along the lines he enjoyed Japan's mono ethnicity and they feel no pressure to take in immigrants. I had to inform him of their huge demographic crisis.

Was your friend hitler?

 

[Bleepey]

Was your friend hitler?

Haha he went full UKIP and is kind of an islamophobe.

 

[JonnyDBrit]

The Polish are ideal migrants I find, fastidious and meticulous seems to be part of their psyche.

They seem to have to deal with a lot of aggression from those from other Eastern European countries anyone know why that is?

Historical context plays a part on both counts.

In terms of the Polish psyche, for the last several centuries, their country simply didn't exist, partitioned by neighbouring powers. When a Polish nation was finally reformed after WW1, it didn't have long before it was overrun by the Nazis, and then overrun by the Soviets, who didn't exactly provide the best standard of living. Poles have, quite simply, put up with a lot of crap as a people and make the best of it, so even the troubles they receive in the UK can be rather light in comparison, especially given the financial benefits of being here.

With regards to why they get more flak, the most obvious factors are their higher visibility and the ability of the UK population to recognise signs of being Polish (or at least slavic, but people will presume Polish), which in turn comes from how the Polish are somewhat more well established than other migrant communities because of... well, WW2. During the war a lot of Polish military personnel fled to the UK in order to continue the fight while their country was occupied, and it was also where a lot of prisoners would be sent when the Allies liberated their camps - like my grandfather. Many of those people grew to like the UK as it had it become their second home, especially as an alternative to a homeland under Soviet rule, and so stayed here. Thus when the cold war finally ended and Poland quite eagerly joined the EU, the UK was well primed as a location for new Polish migrants to travel to. While folks like my Dad love the fact he can now easily find a Polish shop when he wants some kielbasa, to others its a clear signal that there is a sizeable population of Polish immigrants living in the area, and they begin to adjust their sights.

I mean to put it another way, Poles in the United Kingdom is its own wikipedia article.

 

[AHA-Lambda]

hur dur, but I thought Ruth was apparently the most popular politician in scotland? >_>

 

[oti]

hur dur, but I thought Ruth was apparently the most popular politician in scotland? >_>

I'd love to see Farage and Boris on there.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

A rightwing party would probably perform quite well if they weren't called the Conservatives. Whenever you look at policy preferences or base values, Scotland's population is not significantly more lefty than England and is less lefty than Wales by a fair margin. But there's so much cultural animosity towards the Conservatives for obvious historical reasons that it blocks all that out. The SNP is such a weird party - you look at the profile of its supporters and it ranges from everything to the hard left to the sort of "Scottish UKIP" demographic (left behind older working class) and everything in between.

This makes for quite an interesting map to look at:

That's the UK after the 1950 general election, which was neck and neck between the two major parties. The light blue is National Liberals, who were functionally Conservatives by that point and voted with the Conservative party in the HoC. Note the rightwing party taking 58% of the Scottish seats, but only 46% of the English seats.

There's a really interesting political work to be written on the political evolution of Scotland, one feels. From being a bastion of conservatism in the '30s and '40s to being more-or-less the same as England by the 1960s to a Labour bastion by the '80s to the nationalist melange it is today.

 

[Acorn]

A rightwing party would probably perform quite well if they weren't called the Conservatives. Whenever you look at policy preferences or base values, Scotland's population is not significantly more lefty than England and is less lefty than Wales by a fair margin. But there's so much cultural animosity towards the Conservatives for obvious historical reasons that it blocks all that out. The SNP is such a weird party - you look at the profile of its supporters and it ranges from everything to the hard left to the sort of "Scottish UKIP" demographic (left behind older working class) and everything in between.

This makes for quite an interesting map to look at:



That's the UK after the 1950 general election, which was neck and neck between the two major parties. The light blue is National Liberals, who were functionally Conservatives by that point and voted with the Conservative party in the HoC. Note the rightwing party taking 58% of the Scottish seats, but only 46% of the English seats.

There's a really interesting political work to be written on the political evolution of Scotland, one feels. From being a bastion of conservatism in the '30s and '40s to being more-or-less the same as England by the 1960s to a Labour bastion by the '80s to the nationalist melange it is today.

Thatcher destroyed the tories here.

 

[Dr Zhivago]

A rightwing party would probably perform quite well if they weren't called the Conservatives. Whenever you look at policy preferences or base values, Scotland's population is not significantly more lefty than England and is less lefty than Wales by a fair margin. But there's so much cultural animosity towards the Conservatives for obvious historical reasons that it blocks all that out. The SNP is such a weird party - you look at the profile of its supporters and it ranges from everything to the hard left to the sort of "Scottish UKIP" demographic (left behind older working class) and everything in between.

This makes for quite an interesting map to look at:



That's the UK after the 1950 general election, which was neck and neck between the two major parties. The light blue is National Liberals, who were functionally Conservatives by that point and voted with the Conservative party in the HoC. Note the rightwing party taking 58% of the Scottish seats, but only 46% of the English seats.

There's a really interesting political work to be written on the political evolution of Scotland, one feels. From being a bastion of conservatism in the '30s and '40s to being more-or-less the same as England by the 1960s to a Labour bastion by the '80s to the nationalist melange it is today.

Andrew Marr is doing a TV show about this at the moment. Think the second episode is this Sunday.

 

[norinrad]

It seems Nigel Lawson so far has escaped the wrath of the Remainers. Hilarious.

 

[Number45]

It seems Nigel Lawson so far has escaped the wrath of the Remainers. Hilarious.

He seems very much to be in the "I'll be dead soon so fuck it" camp. Amazing how dismissive he is, of all people, of the financial impact.

 

[Colin.]

I'd love to see Farage and Boris on there.

.

 

[kitch9]

Yo, government? FUCK your credibility, do what's right for the country.

It's negotiating posturing. Both sides are doing it

 

[kitch9]

Historical context plays a part on both counts.

In terms of the Polish psyche, for the last several centuries, their country simply didn't exist, partitioned by neighbouring powers. When a Polish nation was finally reformed after WW1, it didn't have long before it was overrun by the Nazis, and then overrun by the Soviets, who didn't exactly provide the best standard of living. Poles have, quite simply, put up with a lot of crap as a people and make the best of it, so even the troubles they receive in the UK can be rather light in comparison, especially given the financial benefits of being here.

With regards to why they get more flak, the most obvious factors are their higher visibility and the ability of the UK population to recognise signs of being Polish (or at least slavic, but people will presume Polish), which in turn comes from how the Polish are somewhat more well established than other migrant communities because of... well, WW2. During the war a lot of Polish military personnel fled to the UK in order to continue the fight while their country was occupied, and it was also where a lot of prisoners would be sent when the Allies liberated their camps - like my grandfather. Many of those people grew to like the UK as it had it become their second home, especially as an alternative to a homeland under Soviet rule, and so stayed here. Thus when the cold war finally ended and Poland quite eagerly joined the EU, the UK was well primed as a location for new Polish migrants to travel to. While folks like my Dad love the fact he can now easily find a Polish shop when he wants some kielbasa, to others its a clear signal that there is a sizeable population of Polish immigrants living in the area, and they begin to adjust their sights.

I mean to put it another way, Poles in the United Kingdom is its own wikipedia article.

To clarify, I meant they get a lot of flak and aggression from people from other Eastern European countries.

The Roma population in my town, whilst generally unpleasant as a group tend to go after the Polish aggressively. The Slovaks aren't much better in this regard. Some nasty stuff goes off.

 

[JonnyDBrit]

To clarify, I meant they get a lot of flak and aggression from people from other Eastern European countries.

The Roma population in my town, whilst generally unpleasant as a group tend to go after the Polish aggressively. The Slovaks aren't much better in this regard. Some nasty stuff goes off.

Well, when you say Roma, you mean Roma as in the traditionally nomadic ethnicity, rather than Romanian, right? Because those are two different cans of worms, and I wanna be sure of which one I'm opening.

 

[Joni]

Would be hilarious if the UK ends up with a deal that is basically worse when it comes to European freedom of movement.

A group of Central European EU members known as the Visegrad Four is ready to veto any Brexit deal that would limit people's right to work in the UK, Slovakian PM Robert Fico says.

"Unless we feel a guarantee that these people are equal, we will veto any agreement between the EU and Britain."

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37396805

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

It's pretty logical that the other 27 European countries will want to protect their citizens' right to live and work in the UK. I'm pretty sure the UK stands alone in the public's opposition to free movement of workers.

 

[norinrad]

Would be hilarious if the UK ends up with a deal that is basically worse when it comes to European freedom of movement.




http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37396805

I doubt Viktor is in that group. He's always sided with either the UK or Russia.

 

[kitch9]

Well, when you say Roma, you mean Roma as in the traditionally nomadic ethnicity, rather than Romanian, right? Because those are two different cans of worms, and I wanna be sure of which one I'm opening.

Probably better we don't. I seem to attract the ban hammer when talking specifics.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...ies-will-uphold-citizens-rights-to-live-in-uk

In a stark reminder of the challenge Britain faces at the negotiating table, Robert Fico said Hungary, Poland, the Czech Republic and Slovakia – the Visegrad or V4 group – would not hesitate to block any accord that threatened the key EU principle of free movement of workers.

“The V4 countries will be uncompromising,” Fico said on Saturday, a day after EU leaders met informally in Bratislava without Britain to try to chart a roadmap for the bloc’s future after the shock of the Brexit vote.

“Unless we feel a guarantee that these people [living and working in Britain] are equal, we will veto any agreement between the EU and Britain,” Fico told Reuters. “I think Britain knows this is an issue for us where there’s no room for compromise.”

To translate: the Visegrad group says German car-makers can go fuck themselves; the UK accepts freedom of movement or they'll force it to crash out with no deal.

I hate to dig up my posts where I pointed out that reaching a deal favourable to the UK will be close to impossible because every EU members has varying interests and all of them wield a veto, but...

 

[JonathanEx]

What? But I thought only Germany and France decided European policy, this is what the papers told me. Those countries aren't real European countries, they're a second tier, their opinions can't count. Right? Right???

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Consider Lithuania. About 4% of all Lithuanians live in the United Kingdom, but in terms of goods and services, Lithuania does very little trade with the United Kingdom. They really don't care about our cheese or our cars, they will simply want to ensure that we have to sign up to freedom of movement. Consider Slovenia. Slovenia has... absolutely nothing to do with the United Kingdom whatsoever. Slovenia's main goal is to ensure the continuing stability of the European Union, so that it can continue to receive the large amounts of redevelopment funding it gets. Slovenia also don't care about our cheese or our cars; they want to make sure that the deal we get is no better than something like the Norway-arrangements, because a deal better than that might prompt more countries to leave and threaten the stability of the EU. So even if Germany really wants to sort a deal with us quickly... Slovenia will be very, very happy to slow things down.

I mean, okay, I picked Slovenia instead of Slovakia, but you get the picture.

EDIT: fuck am i an expert? need to buy some anti-gove repellent, quick

 

[kitch9]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...ies-will-uphold-citizens-rights-to-live-in-uk



To translate: the Visegrad group says German car-makers can go fuck themselves; the UK accepts freedom of movement or they'll force it to crash out with no deal.

I hate to dig up my posts where I pointed out that reaching a deal favourable to the UK will be close to impossible because every EU members has varying interests and all of them wield a veto, but...

The EU should have been free movement of people but without forcing the payment of in work benefits.

If people need subsidising to move then maybe they shouldn't be moving in the first place.

Problem solved.

I would guarantee that if countries were given the choice whether to pay in work subsidies to EU migrants or not very few would.

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

The EU should have been free movement of people but without forcing the payment of in work benefits.

If people need subsidising to move then maybe they shouldn't be moving in the first place.

Problem solved.

I would guarantee that if countries were given the choice whether to pay in work subsidies to EU migrants or not very few would.

Cameron got a benefit limiting deal from the EU but the media has to throw a hissy fit and our electorate decided to be idiots and leave the EU so...

 

[Joni]

The EU should have been free movement of people but without forcing the payment of in work benefits.

If people need subsidising to move then maybe they shouldn't be moving in the first place.

Problem solved.

Oh look, there are actually rules on that. You can't just move and claim benefits.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-25134521
Brexit is about the dirty European immigrant that at the same time claims benefits and steals jobs.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

The EU should have been free movement of people but without forcing the payment of in work benefits.

If people need subsidising to move then maybe they shouldn't be moving in the first place.

Problem solved.

I would guarantee that if countries were given the choice whether to pay in work subsidies to EU migrants or not very few would.

I sort of agree with this. The EU did actually attempt to ameliorate this issue by allowing EU countries to charge other EU countries for in-work benefits accrued by nationals of said country, like is the norm for healthcare, but you can only charge for what that other country would provide. The UK is relatively generous in terms of in-work benefits so it wasn't covering the costs. This was also only done in... 2014 (from memory); really needed to be done earlier.

I don't think it was the main problem, though. I don't think many people are really up to speed on in-work benefit rules, and only 11% of EU nationals claimed them anyway; overall we were still making a net "profit" for the government in that EU nationals paid more on tax than they received in welfare (on average).

 

[PdotMichael]

Would be hilarious if the UK ends up with a deal that is basically worse when it comes to European freedom of movement.




http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37396805

Basically no one is interested in giving the UK a good deal. It's crazy that there are people in the UK who believe that delusion.

 

[kmag]

The EU should have been free movement of people but without forcing the payment of in work benefits.

If people need subsidising to move then maybe they shouldn't be moving in the first place.

Problem solved.

I would guarantee that if countries were given the choice whether to pay in work subsidies to EU migrants or not very few would.

The UK probably should have developed it's economy so many of it's working population didn't require high levels of government top up. Essentially taxpayer support for private business profits.

 

[JonnyDBrit]

Probably better we don't. I seem to attract the ban hammer when talking specifics.

Well its mainly because you contextualised it as 'eastern europeans' which on the face of it implies Romanians, where the Roma are... well its complex but even though they were common throughout eastern europe they're not eastern european in the same way that other ethnicities are.

Basically its a lot of history, whether its wars with the Ottomans, suffering under slavery, or who was on what side in WW2.

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

The UK must now be seen as an untrustworthy partner on the international arena. How can anyone sign a deal without knowing whether our government will throw a hissy fit and whine constantly about how bad they have it and demand to leave?

 

[oti]

Told'cha Visegrád is having none of UK's nonsense. And with their newly found courage even Germany won't have an easy time persuading them.

 

[Number45]

It's negotiating posturing. Both sides are doing it

In this context I assume the credibility they're trying to save is with the 52% as opposed to the rest of Europe.

 

[AHA-Lambda]

Well I'm off to the 2 year anniversary independence rally in Glasgow today

Fingers crossed it's a reality and we can fix this fucking mess

 

[Audioboxer]

Well I'm off to the 2 year anniversary independence rally in Glasgow today

Fingers crossed it's a reality and we can fix this fucking mess

My man! Hope the turnout is good.

Watch out for the violence - http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/70...-stop-dividing-Scotland-with-referendum-plans