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The UK votes to leave the European Union |OUT2| Mayday, Mayday, I've lost an ARM

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J

jelly

Member
I find it funny when some people hate how their Christian valued Britain is changing but aren't Polish mostly Christian, Bosnia etc. as well. Surely for racists that's better than Muslims. It would be an amusing question to ask them.
 
K

Kabouter

Member
jelly said:
I find it funny when some people hate how their Christian valued Britain is changing but aren't Polish mostly Christian, Bosnia etc. as well. Surely for racists that's better than Muslims. It would be an amusing question to ask them.
Click to expand...

Bosnia is mostly Muslim (but only just, it's like 51% or something). But yes, most East European migrants by far will be Christians. They'll largely be Catholic or Eastern Orthodox though, so maybe those people think they're the wrong kind of Christians :p
 
I

ittoryu

Member
kitch9 said:
It's people with your aggressive attitude to this debate that drove the anti establishment vote the way it went.

Whilst there no doubt some had nefarious thoughts about other races in their minds when casting their votes I would suggest that the majority of the 17 million that voted leave could not care less about the colour of someones skin when it comes to immigration merely that there was too much of it and it is causing problems.
Click to expand...
What problems?

Also: are we back in quoting how many millions voted for one side?
 
AHA-Lambda

AHA-Lambda

Member
Are all leave voters racist? No
Was the campaign charged with Xenophobia and hatred of "the other"? Yes
Has the media fed this attitude for years? Yes
Is there more than a million racists in the UK (the difference between remain and leave vote totals)? I don't doubt there is

And it's still sincerely my sincere belief that people who voted leave were largely, if not racist, then wilfully ignorant.

My immediate family all voted leave to my horror and chagrin, despite my warnings of the shit that would happen, half of them at least now regret it thinking that stuff wouldn't happen.
 
J

Joni

Member
Kabouter said:
Bosnia is mostly Muslim (but only just, it's like 51% or something). But yes, most East European migrants by far will be Christians. They'll largely be Catholic or Eastern Orthodox though, so maybe those people think they're the wrong kind of Christians :p
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That would be rich considering the English are by definition the wrong kind of Christians.
 
R

RenditMan

Banned
Miles Quaritch said:
Remind me, how many areas that voted to leave had such high levels of immigration that it made day to day life unbearable?
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It would have only taken a 4-5% swing in the vote the other way for the country to vote against Brexit.

Maybe if the establishment and the hand wavers had listened a tad more to those in areas that are genuinely struggling to which there are quite a few the small swing the other way could have been achieved and all this avoided.

jelly said:
I find it funny when some people hate how their Christian valued Britain is changing but aren't Polish mostly Christian, Bosnia etc. as well. Surely for racists that's better than Muslims. It would be an amusing question to ask them.
Click to expand...

The UK is no longer a very religious country. I can't see it having much influence there tbh.
 
J

JonnyDBrit

Member
RenditMan said:
The UK is no longer a very religious country. I can't see it having much influence there tbh.
Click to expand...

You'd be surprised. Even when people don't observe the rituals or practices of their beliefs they can still be very much whipped into a fervour about said beliefs. Moreover in many parts of the country the local church is still a community centre, so at the very least, its another thread in the fabric of people's identity. From what I can vaguely find, apparently Catholics were much more in favour of the EU (which makes sense, given the implicit ties to much of the continent), while protestants leaned more towards Brexit, but I imagine that varied between more particular denominations.
 
R

RedSparrows

Member
JonnyDBrit said:
You'd be surprised. Even when people don't observe the rituals or practices of their beliefs they can still be very much whipped into a fervour about said beliefs. Moreover in many parts of the country the local church is still a community centre, so at the very least, its another thread in the fabric of people's identity. From what I can vaguely find, apparently Catholics were much more in favour of the EU (which makes sense, given the implicit ties to much of the continent), while protestants leaned more towards Brexit, but I imagine that varied between more particular denominations.
Click to expand...

Cultural Christianity, rather than active Christianity, is a big factor imo. 'This is a Christian country' means something to many, even if their notions about faith and Christianity might be vague and non-committal at best. It's a historical identifier, not a statement of actual religious creed.
 
B

Beefy

Member
L

Lucreto

Member
L

Lucreto

Member
Beefy said:
Are you sure you aren't getting confused between Euro to pound and pound to euro?

1.00 GBP = 1.14950 EUR
British Pound ↔ Euro
1 GBP = 1.14950 EUR 1 EUR = 0.869945 GBP
currencyconverter/convert/?Amount=1&From=GBP&To=EUR
Click to expand...

Not sure the site I linked has it as

1 GBP = 1.14833 EUR
1 EUR = 0.870827 GBP
 
C

Camp Freddie

Member
I guess the Sun/Mail/Express will just say that it's too late now. Those pesky immigrants have already stolen our jobs and now they're taking them back home.
Due to our government's lax border controls and PC-culture, no one stopped the nefarious Eastern European job-smuggling rings.
 
R

Royal_Phalanx

Member
Even if immigration dropped significantly the lives of the people in poorer regions won't improve. At best their living standards will likely stay the same and they'll still be poor. Places with little government investment voted Leave and I can't see this changing even with the hardest of brexits.
 
M

Miles Quaritch

Member
Royal_Phalanx said:
Even if immigration dropped significantly the lives of the people in poorer regions won't improve. At best their living standards will likely stay the same and they'll still be poor. Places with little government investment voted Leave and I can't see this changing even with the hardest of brexits.
Click to expand...

They know their lives won't change, they just wanted to plant their racist flag in the ground and try to screw everyone over too.

Do you think these people will do the cleaning jobs that will open up if we ended immigration? They didn't pursue further education and still expect to walk into a good, well paying job. I can understand the issues with social mobility and other factors, but usually you don't then turn around and fucking bite the hand that's allowing them to sit on their arse and have more useless, in the way kids who'll grow up to be just like them and continue the never ending cycle of ignorance that plagues society.
 
B

Beefy

Member
Miles Quaritch said:
Open a dialogue, Beefy. You're being needlessly aggressive by singling them out and not listening to what I assure you are entirely vaild talking points.
Click to expand...

Ha. Seeing as it is pretty obvious what is causing it I will pass. The part time jobs ( which are the only ones I can go due to illness) market is dead and getting worse. Only applied for one job in 2 months!
 
M

Miles Quaritch

Member
Beefy said:
Ha. Seeing as it is pretty obvious what is causing it I will pass. The part time jobs ( which are the only ones I can go due to illness) market is dead and getting worse. Only applied for one job in 2 months!
Click to expand...

Temporary illness or long term? If it's temp, I'd really recommend going abroad.

It's not alarmist to say the UK is a sinking ship at this point. Find a job on the mainland and you very likely won't have any issues staying there after the UK leaves.
 
B

Beefy

Member
Miles Quaritch said:
Temporary illness or long term? If it's temp, I'd really recommend going abroad.

It's not alarmist to say the UK is a sinking ship at this point. Find a job on the mainland and you very likely won't have any issues staying there after the UK leaves.
Click to expand...

Long term mental illness sadly. Why I have no chance of going abroad, I will just have to wait until 2030...
Then get moaned at for being lazy and a scrounger by the elite.
 
M

Miles Quaritch

Member
Beefy said:
Long term mental illness sadly. Why I have no chance of going abroad, I will just have to wait until 2030...
Then get moaned at for being lazy and a scrounger by the elite.
Click to expand...

Ah.

If you reach a point where you're medicating, going abroad is still worth keeping in mind. Easy for me to say I know, but don't rule anything out.
 
R

Royal_Phalanx

Member
If businesses move a lot of their functions abroad ironically Brexit will improve my chances of working in Europe. I'm looking to get into back office functions like HR or web dev and am self teaching myself on Codeacademy right now. Is it possible to do stuff like bar work in Europe to get my foot into Europe and stay there post brexit? Gotta use that free movement right whilst it's still guaranteed to me because I don't see myself ever getting a work permit just for that. I'm worried about living costs.
 
K

Kabouter

Member
Miles Quaritch said:
Temporary illness or long term? If it's temp, I'd really recommend going abroad.

It's not alarmist to say the UK is a sinking ship at this point. Find a job on the mainland and you very likely won't have any issues staying there after the UK leaves.
Click to expand...

It kind of is. Is the Brexit likely to have continued negative consequences? Of course. Is Britain a sinking ship? No, and there's very little reason to believe that it is. At the end of the day, whatever the relationship between Britain and the EU (if we include only plausible options, of course. If Britain decides to adopt Juche it's quite different ;)), the country will find a new economic equilibrium almost certainly below where it would otherwise have been, yet it will likely remain a democratic, prosperous and safe Western nation. Of course individual circumstances can vary and it's entirely possible that for some looking abroad for employment is the safer bet depending on their skill set and so on.
 
R

Royal_Phalanx

Member
Kabouter said:
It kind of is. Is the Brexit likely to have continued negative consequences? Of course. Is Britain a sinking ship? No, and there's very little reason to believe that it is. At the end of the day, whatever the relationship between Britain and the EU (if we include only plausible options, of course. If Britain decides to adopt Juche it's quite different ;)), the country will find a new economic equilibrium almost certainly below where it would otherwise have been, yet it will likely remain a democratic, prosperous and safe Western nation. Of course individual circumstances can vary and it's entirely possible that for some looking abroad for employment is the safer bet depending on their skill set and so on.
Click to expand...

Yep, that's my view on Brexit in general. It will be negative, poor people won't get richer out of some Brexit miracle, but people will find a way to carry on their lives mostly as normal. Of course, with politics here shifting massively to the right we may soon find living standards better in Europe in terms of social protections and the work-life balance. It's not inconceivable that the UK will get a more 'American' rather than 'European' work culture.
 
M

Miles Quaritch

Member
Kabouter said:
It kind of is. Is the Brexit likely to have continued negative consequences? Of course. Is Britain a sinking ship? No, and there's very little reason to believe that it is. At the end of the day, whatever the relationship between Britain and the EU (if we include only plausible options, of course. If Britain decides to adopt Juche it's quite different ;)), the country will find a new economic equilibrium almost certainly below where it would otherwise have been, yet it will likely remain a democratic, prosperous and safe Western nation. Of course individual circumstances can vary and it's entirely possible that for some looking abroad for employment is the safer bet depending on their skill set and so on.
Click to expand...

Losing one of the main economic drivers will be catastrophic, there's simply no way to get around the fact that losing the banking sector and all that comes with it will have an impact on the economy that will last decades.

You can't ignore social cohesion either (which is fractured and as tense as it's been for some time and will continue to fracture as EU money that's been revitalising areas dries up), social programmes will be scaled back or abandoned altogether (we're already seeing this in the name of austerity, it'll be magnitudes worse when EU money dries up along with losing the financial sector) and that's not getting into the issues that'll come up with the NHS and minor local issues like reduced rubbish collection (we're already seeing a scale back to once a month in some areas), infrastructure investment will continue to take a back seat and it's not like there's been a lot of money pumped into it that over the years with a great many roads in dire need of resurfacing.

Maybe sinking ship wasn't the right word to use, but compared to how the UK has had it for the past few decades? Most definitely on a prolonged downwards slide. Some will be insulated, but there's nowhere to go but down from here and if you can and you're able, there's really no reason to stick around and limit your opportunities.
 
C

chadskin

Member
To further Miles' point, the (London-based thinktank) Centre for European Reform published a piece titled "Brexit Britain: The Poor Man of Western Europe" recently that compares the strength of the UK's economy to the EU-15: http://www.cer.org.uk/sites/default/files/pb_breixt_britain_ST_sept16.pdf

Summary:
  • The UK has economic strengths, such as a flexible labour market, which ensures that unemployment is low even in many of its economically struggling regions. But contrary to much of the received wisdom, Britain has not been one of Europe’s economic stars over the last 15 years. And Brexit is set to exacerbate the economy’s underlying weaknesses.
  • In terms of economic growth per head, Britain’s performance has been in line with France, a country now synonymous in the UK with economic failure. The British are no richer relative to the EU-15 average than they were 15 years ago, and the average Briton has to work more hours than the EU-15 average to achieve that income.
  • Sustainable increases in living standards require economies to combine land, labour, capital and technology in ever-more efficient ways; Britain has made a poor job of this. The UK’s productivity performance has been woeful, falling to just 90 per cent of the EU-15 average. This helps explain why Britons’ wages have risen by much less than their French and German counterparts over the last 15 years.
  • Moreover, the UK is highly dependent on London and its environs. Apart from London, just one British region – the south-east of England – has a GDP per capita in excess of the EU-15 average, meaning that just 27 per cent of the UK population live in regions wealthier than that EU average.
  • Far from catching-up with the richer parts of the EU – as one might expect as they adopt technologies and working practices developed elsewhere – the UK’s poor regions have fallen further behind.
  • Britain’s problems lie mainly on the supply-side and in the structure of public spending. Three key issues stand out: poor skills among a sizeable chunk of the workforce; weak infrastructure and a lack of affordable housing; and the centralisation of political and commercial power in London.
  • Unfortunately, Brexit risks aggravating most, if not all, of these problems. And Britain’s already startling regional imbalances are likely to worsen further, leaving much of the country’s population living in areas considerably poorer than the EU-15 average.
  • The Conservatives will provide some fiscal stimulus to counter the weakening of growth caused by Brexit, but will not make the long-term investments in infrastructure and skills needed by the UK. They have few MPs in the poorer regions that would benefit most from such spending, while the resulting higher borrowing and/or taxation would be unpopular with their core vote in England’s wealthy South.
Click to expand...

A few choice charts:
CtQ_daMWEAAUfSC.jpg:large

CtQ_vHVWcAAAAGf.jpg:large

CtRBuyMWEAASWxb.jpg:large

CtRC1GMWYAAnsSi.jpg:large
Click to expand...

The relevance of London to the UK's economy really can not be overstated.
 
J

JonnyDBrit

Member
chadskin said:
To further Miles' point, the (London-based thinktank) Centre for European Reform published a piece titled "Brexit Britain: The Poor Man of Western Europe" recently that compares the strength of the UK's economy to the EU-15: http://www.cer.org.uk/sites/default/files/pb_breixt_britain_ST_sept16.pdf

Summary:


A few choice charts:


The relevance of London to the UK's economy really can not be overstated.
Click to expand...

I remember an article by the BBC a couple of years back, wonder if I can find it...

Fake Edit: Here it is.

Its what first really clued me in to just how disparate London and the wider south east are from much of the rest of the country.
 
L

lazer_bean

Member
Miles Quaritch said:
Facts are what they are.

And if you're not a racist leaver, why get so upset and bent out of shape? You're one of the good ones right? If you're one of the good ones, there's no reason for you to be upset, I'm referring to the other ones, so there's no need to be so defensive.
Click to expand...
I was being sarcastic because you sound like an advertisement and I'd rather laugh it off, I wasn't "upset and bent out of shape" lol

As if, the Eu was only about freedom of movement. As if people in the EU were treated equally. For example, after Romania or Bulgaria joined the EU, its people weren't allowed work permits/the same rights in other EU countries as other Europeans. This sounds like discrimination to me but those rights were granted a couple of years ago, I think, so that makes it ok, I guess. Good guy EU!

Walshicus said:
Let's not pretend that racism wasn't a huge element in the Leave campaign and with it's supporters.
Click to expand...
To me that's a media issue: as I mentioned before the EU isn't only about freedom of movement so there is no reason why this topic should prevail over other ones during a campaign. I don't think over half the UK is racist, otherwise you probably would have had a far right PM by now, for example.
 
K

kitch9

Banned
Miles Quaritch said:
Temporary illness or long term? If it's temp, I'd really recommend going abroad.

It's not alarmist to say the UK is a sinking ship at this point. Find a job on the mainland and you very likely won't have any issues staying there after the UK leaves.
Click to expand...

It's more than a tad alarmist though.

There's those on one side thinking the skies going to fall in and those on the other thinking that being free from the EU will see our streets will be paved with gold.

The reality will probably be much more mundane than that and somewhere in the middle.
 
R

Royal_Phalanx

Member
lazer_bean said:
I was being sarcastic because you sound like an advertisement and I'd rather laugh it off, I wasn't "upset and bent out of shape" lol

As if, the Eu was only about freedom of movement. As if people in the EU were treated equally. For example, after Romania or Bulgaria joined the EU, its people weren't allowed work permits/the same rights in other EU countries as other Europeans. This sounds like discrimination to me but those rights were granted a couple of years ago, I think, so that makes it ok, I guess. Good guy EU!


To me that's a media issue: as I mentioned before the EU isn't only about freedom of movement so there is no reason why this topic should prevail over other ones during a campaign. I don't think over half the UK is racist, otherwise you probably would have had a far right PM by now, for example.
Click to expand...

I feel like the 7 year brake is to give those countries a chance to improve economically first without all their workers moving away immediately, not EU bigotry towards Eastern Europeans, and anyways member states had the choice to lift restrictions earlier. Why is the government so obsessed about free movement if it wasn't the main issue? At any rate, if the government get rid of free movement for EU and UK nationals I would consider it 'tyranny of the majority', because rights that I was born with would be forcibly stripped from me. The EU treaties require that EU nationals contribute towards the host state as taxpayers, so this isn't a big deal.
 
S

SKINNER!

Banned
First Russia and now Turkey.

Aww man! I can't wait until May and Johnson get the red carpet treatment in North Korea. Might as well scrape the bottom of the fucking barrel.
 
A

anonymous_abc

Member
the UK Foreign Minister want's Turkey in the EU.
the UK Defense Minister want's to block a common EU Defense Force.

Someone should tell them that they are both brexiters and both want out of the EU...
And brexit means brexit.
 
Theonik

Theonik

Member
FliXFantatier said:
the UK Foreign Minister want's Turkey in the EU.
the UK Defense Minister want's to block a common EU Defense Force.

Someone should tell them that they are both brexiters and both want out of the EU...
And brexit means brexit.
Click to expand...
Nothing better for proving how shitty your old bed was than taking a dump on it yourself on your way out.
 
C

Camp Freddie

Member
Royal_Phalanx said:
Some Labour MPs now siding with hard brexit.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ent..._57ea791ee4b00e5804ef5ae0?ir=UK&utm_hp_ref=uk

Rachel Reeves claims there will be violence if brexit doesn't curb immigration.
Click to expand...

Well, at least I feel no regret now for voting against Labour when I lived in her constituency.
Labour is totally fucked, since most of their activists are anti brexit social lefties, who will not support them if they shift socially-right. But their voters in 'core' areas are heavily brexit so they'll be in trouble if they take a pro-EU line.
 
Nicktendo86

Nicktendo86

Member
Miles Quaritch said:
Losing one of the main economic drivers will be catastrophic, there's simply no way to get around the fact that losing the banking sector and all that comes with it will have an impact on the economy that will last decades.

You can't ignore social cohesion either (which is fractured and as tense as it's been for some time and will continue to fracture as EU money that's been revitalising areas dries up), social programmes will be scaled back or abandoned altogether (we're already seeing this in the name of austerity, it'll be magnitudes worse when EU money dries up along with losing the financial sector) and that's not getting into the issues that'll come up with the NHS and minor local issues like reduced rubbish collection (we're already seeing a scale back to once a month in some areas), infrastructure investment will continue to take a back seat and it's not like there's been a lot of money pumped into it that over the years with a great many roads in dire need of resurfacing.

Maybe sinking ship wasn't the right word to use, but compared to how the UK has had it for the past few decades? Most definitely on a prolonged downwards slide. Some will be insulated, but there's nowhere to go but down from here and if you can and you're able, there's really no reason to stick around and limit your opportunities.
Click to expand...

The banking sector won't just disappear. There might well need to be some readjustment, especially if we lose passporting, but I honestly do not think that the financial services sector is going to pack up to the continent entirely.

Personally, I think we will leave the customs union and the single market (we have to really, politically speaking) but the Government will push hard for a bilateral free trade agreement including passporting.

Why should the EU accept such a deal? They would be crazy, right? Well, I dunno. It looks like the German banking sector may well explode at any time and could potentially take the Euro with it, I don't think come 2017 the EU/Eurozone will be in much of a position to gamble with any more risk and uncertainty. The negotiations are going to be pretty crazy, but we'll see.
 
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