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The UK votes to leave the European Union |OUT2| Mayday, Mayday, I've lost an ARM
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PdotMichael
Banned
Pretty sure several countries would block it.
nekkid
It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan.
"Several" or "all"? What would be in it for them?
I like Farron a lot. I voted for them last time out anyway, but I'll definitely be voting for them again assuming nothing drastic happens.
Actually considering joining up to be honest. For most of my voting life (and there's been quite a bit of it) I've been largely disinterested in politics but right now I feel like I should be doing more.
Theonik
Member
My question is, since there is no concept of a European citizenship as an atomic thing, which country is going to issue their passports or do they have different ideas for this? It could be made such that countries can volunteer in such a programme so British citizens can ask for a European citizenship provided they meet some criteria that might depend on the issuing state.
In which case it might actually pass.
In which case it might actually pass.
nekkid
It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan.
I'm really considering it too. The problem is that it would be a somewhat token gesture as I don't have the time right now to commit to any activities. I would hope in maybe 10 years when our kids are old enough to be self-sufficient that I would be able to get involved.
My kids are older, but time is still something of a problem for me too. I'm still at the investigating phase at the moment (i.e. what amount of time would I need to commit and when, as well as asking myself if I'm the sort of person they would want campaigning for them (I can be a bit abrasive in person)) but even if I don't feel like I can contribute time I can at least help expand their war chest.
I dunno. Like I said this is new territory for me so I'll have to see what I can do.
PdotMichael
Banned
I just wanted to avoid absolutes.
SuperEpicMan
Banned
Something I have been thinking about since the election results and also brexit is how politics have changed, and whilst both situations will likely have a massive negative impact. I think they offer a bit of a wake up call.
For the most part, in both cases the polls were wrong, predictions were wrong, and the media were wrong. A massive demographic of voters in both cases have felt let down by politics that were not working for them, and they made the choice to protest.
Instead of asking why people were voting the way they were, they were instead generalised as stupid, racist or whatever. I feel this guy conveys much of what I am trying to say. Jonathan Pie talking about leave voters. Generally speaking politicians aren't engaging or trying to understand voters.
Hell, even this video I initially laughed at, but there is an element of truth to what Gove is saying:
Michael Gove: "Britons had enough of experts"
In the mind of voters, they have been following the advice of experts with no change to the status quo.
This all got me thinking about Jeremy Corbyn, and how he might actually win a GE should he run. I feel he would engage with voters, in a similar way to Trump.
Another Jonathan Pie video, but he gets my point across.
For the most part, in both cases the polls were wrong, predictions were wrong, and the media were wrong. A massive demographic of voters in both cases have felt let down by politics that were not working for them, and they made the choice to protest.
Instead of asking why people were voting the way they were, they were instead generalised as stupid, racist or whatever. I feel this guy conveys much of what I am trying to say. Jonathan Pie talking about leave voters. Generally speaking politicians aren't engaging or trying to understand voters.
Hell, even this video I initially laughed at, but there is an element of truth to what Gove is saying:
Michael Gove: "Britons had enough of experts"
In the mind of voters, they have been following the advice of experts with no change to the status quo.
This all got me thinking about Jeremy Corbyn, and how he might actually win a GE should he run. I feel he would engage with voters, in a similar way to Trump.
Another Jonathan Pie video, but he gets my point across.
shinra-bansho
Member
Congratulations, UK. You're now only runner up for stupidest electoral decisions.
PdotMichael
Banned
Wrestlemania
Banned
The damage done by Trump's inevitable environmental fuckups will last forever.
Stead Fast
Banned
Nah, it wouldn't be a figure like Corbyn that would pull the UK away from the Tories, he's already too ingrained as 'another politician' to a lot of casual observers - love him or hate him, his spotlight this year was occupying news space for a labour election the majority of the nation didn't really understand, follow, care for, nor have any real say in it.
Not that I think a one-to-one comparison to Trump is the correct way moving forwards, but someone less associated with politics will, bizarrely, seem a more credile choice than a man whose dogged by media, opposition, and even his own party.
It's kind of how Farage got to be so popular, as he was seen as anti-establishment despite the level of xenophobic hypocrisy he used. It resonated in part because it was easy to blame immigration for our woes rather than engage on hard issues like budgetting for healthcare, education and national debt, and he was, to most who never followed politics, an unknown entity.
As to who could be a lieral equivilent to the likes of Trump, that I haven't a clue, I'm afraid.
I know opinion polls have taken a beating lately, but they haven't been quite that wrong. If Corbyn is going to engage with voters, he's leaving it a bit late. Not to mention that Corbyn is hamstrung much more by first past the post than Trump was by the electoral college.
As for which is worse, I think people are underestimating what damage a Trump presidency can do to America's standing in the world, and its impact on the environment. Climate change is a catastrophe waiting to happen - and indeed happening - that everybody seems to have buried their head in the sand about, and the little progress we have made now threatens to be undone. Not to mention that Trump gets to select at least one - likely two - supreme court judges, and you have a disaster with lasting effect.
Brexit will make us poorer, less powerful, and more inward-looking. However, many of the problems we face are results of a Conservative government, who are much more entrenched than Trump.
I don't think anyone in British Politics (outside Scotland anyway) really has the Charisma right now. May is PM due to being the least incompetent option (seriously, all she had to do was keep her mouth shut for a week), and Corbyn won the Labour leadership contest less out of his own ability and more due to the wooden and unmemorable people who were standing against him.
Farage is all bluster and I think it's fairly clear he doesn't really have ambitions of being PM anyway, it was always about the EU. Farron says some good stuff but I doubt most of the electorate know or care who he is
nekkid
It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan.
The more I hear from him, the more I feel like this is a damned shame.
Stead Fast
Banned
Agreed, Farron would have to come out in a bombastic manner for the next year to gain any attention from votersoutside of the political sphere. Seriously, at this stage there must be people around him seeing Sturgeon oppose May, seeing Trump make waves against both his own and Clinton's party and say, "Do more! You get votes when you swing harder!".
Agreed on climate change, and I mentioned in the nuclear war fear thread that this is what we should be most concerned with, even ahead of the rise of right-wing agendas across the world.
Please let this happen.
War Peaceman
You're a big guy.
It is easy to say nice things when nothing you say has any consequence.
nekkid
It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan.
So you dismiss the opinions of anybody except those in government?
JonnyDBrit
Member
Its actually kinda interesting to think about. I feel like - admittedly based more on study than experince - that Thatcher herself only gained the stature with which she was remembered after the Falklands War, with her initial appointment more coming from sheer disappointment in the Callaghan government. So she sort of grew into the confidence.
By contrast, Blair was a star right out the gate, yet gradually began to lose his luster over time, especially as Iraq and Afghanistan got drawn out (in spite of success with Sierra Leone).
May feels like Thatcher without a Falklands War right now. If she doesn't get a 'victory' in getting a good deal from the EU (which, as we've all discussed, seems rather unlikely), I do have doubts for the longevity of her premiership. Or, I would if there was a half decent opposition that seemed like it was able to snap on the chance. Suppose a lot can change in three and a half years though...
I would love to see this happen. Don't expect it will though. Maybe a symbolic gesture at best.
And 'discrimination', lol. People who voted Leave don't want to be part of the EU, so they're just getting what they want.
WhateverItTakes
Banned
Still back of the queue it seems.
Take the hint Teresa, Trump ain't the right horse to hitch to.
If only there was a group of close allies we could band together with...
*cries*
Stead Fast
Banned
Still back of the queue it seems.
It seems now he's won, he's finally had that crash course on world politics he's sorely needed. His first takeaway lesson is: "Don't worry about the Brits, they'll sink themselves before they'll be of any real use to you."
PdotMichael
Banned
Must be a shock for some Brits that the Empire has no friends.
nekkid
It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan.
I will be absolutely furious if this happens and there is nothing similar in return for EU citizens living in the UK, especially because you just know that a shedload of leave voters would apply for it in an instant
It would be interesting to see what the plan for this idea would be in practice though, presumably those that opt-in would have to pay some kind of fee/tax for that, in exchange for the benefits of access?
Stead Fast
Banned
I can see it now:
"Tired of trying to get back into your favourite holdiay spot because those pesky Europeans are being all uppity about travel? Consolidate all those visas into one easy-to-pay access package!"
Brexit: Saving money, for you
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
Here's the thing though, the leave campaign had some issues, sure, and there was a spike in hate crimes afterwards, but the general idea of leaving is not abhorrent whatsoever. Doesn't much matter whether you like it or not. I don't think it's a good idea either but it's not comparable.
You can't compare a broad idea like that to someone with no prior experience being elected and when he personally made the statements that he did, it's not just not equivalent. Brexit is a broad subject and a fiercely independent island nation's pushback against what the European Economic Community became, not one person and their statements.
Pretty sure those Brits don't think we need any.
You say that like its not that big a deal. And I would imagine the general idea of leaving the EU is abhorrent to plenty of people, I certainly know plenty.
I guess technically it is a broad subject, if you get 17m people voting for something, just the sheer number of people there means there is going to be a decent variance of opinions. We all know what the most common (and worrying) one is though;
The audience shouting on Question Time tonight when the comparisons to Brexit were mentioned were hilarious.
It truly is baffling how some people can't connect the 2 together.
I honestly doubt there would be any benefits over what you have.
It truly is baffling how some people can't connect the 2 together.
I'm pretty sure it would just enable British citizens the ability to move and work in Europe, much like yourself.
I honestly doubt there would be any benefits over what you have.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
You say that like its not that big a deal. And I would imagine the general idea of leaving the EU is abhorrent to plenty of people, I certainly know plenty.
I guess technically it is a broad subject, if you get 17m people voting for something, just the sheer number of people there means there is going to be a decent variance of opinions. We all know what the most common (and worrying) one is though;
Technically it is nationalism (or perhaps just isolationism), but there were far fewer outright attacks on human dignity in the lead-up the referendum than what happened in the US. You might not like a sign or two and yes there was a worrying spike in hate crimes afterwards, but despite parallels it was still really different. The basic idea of leaving the EU might not be everyone's favourite decision, but despite immigration being the main issue, check out some of the other words on that bubble.
It's unfortunate that leavers are ignoring that the judiciary upholding parliamentary sovereignty IS British (not EU) law, but it's actually pretty scary that the case could theoretically find itself in the European Court of Justice...that's how much the European Union is basically sovereign. It's not the European Economic Community anymore.
I disagree. Britain is hugely dependent on foreign trade and migration and we'd be fucked without it. The Good Ship Blighty that won Brexit is a dream.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
I mean independent in spirit and ideally in legislation and so on and so forth like most countries. The EU is of course a net benefit yes, but I mean, I guess those days are coming to a close.
The sun has set....on a lot of things.
http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presente...caller-leaves-ferrari-with-head-in-his-hands/
Durppp.
The idiocy dumbfounds me.
Durppp.
The idiocy dumbfounds me.
You mean apart from the murder of an MP?
The use of nazi imagery in Leave posters?
The "hordes of immigrants" languages?
Leave didn't have someone as abhorrent as Donald Trump at their head, but they represented the same shitty ideas and prejudices, and trying to pretend they didn't is just shameful but unsurprising.
It's because another nation took the crown of the worst blunder of 2016. On the other hand, as Toblerone manufacturers cost everything in $$$, does that mean we'll the old shape back?
Quite interesting seeing how positively markets react to Trump and their hope that the special relationship between the US and UK will help through Brexit now that Obama is gone while Trump has repeatedly said he doesn't care about anyone else and America First.
Isn't it just more likely that Sterling is rising because the dollar is falling?
PdotMichael
Banned
Leaked documents for the incoming negotiations
Code:
Do you want to be become a colony of the United States of America?
[_] Yes
[_] No- Status
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