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The UK votes to leave the European Union |OUT2| Mayday, Mayday, I've lost an ARM
- Thread starter Hasney
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These by-elections today didn't go particularly well for the Tories. They had four seats and lost three of them to the Lib Dems and one to an independent.
Bovey (Teignbridge) result:
LDEM: 43.9% (+20.3)
CON: 33.1% (-4.2)
IND: 8.9% (-1.5)
LAB: 5.4% (-7.4)
UKIP: 5.1% (+5.1)
IND: 3.6% (+3.6)
Chudleigh (Teignbridge):
LDEM: 51.5% (+38.8)
CON: 35.6% (+2.8)
UKIP: 6.7% (+6.7)
LAB: 6.1% (-8.8)
Ind(s) and Grn didn't stand this time.
Blackdown (Taunton Deane) result:
LDEM: 71.2% (+49.9)
CON: 22.5% (-30.4)
IND: 6.3% (+6.3)
Other Ind and Grn didn't stand this time round.
Moreton Hall (St Edmundsbury) result:
IND: 56.0% (+22.4)
CON: 21.7% (-22.1)
LDEM: 10.4% (+10.4)
LAB: 7.2% (-15.4)
UKIP: 4.8% (+4.8)
Bovey (Teignbridge) result:
LDEM: 43.9% (+20.3)
CON: 33.1% (-4.2)
IND: 8.9% (-1.5)
LAB: 5.4% (-7.4)
UKIP: 5.1% (+5.1)
IND: 3.6% (+3.6)
Chudleigh (Teignbridge):
LDEM: 51.5% (+38.8)
CON: 35.6% (+2.8)
UKIP: 6.7% (+6.7)
LAB: 6.1% (-8.8)
Ind(s) and Grn didn't stand this time.
Blackdown (Taunton Deane) result:
LDEM: 71.2% (+49.9)
CON: 22.5% (-30.4)
IND: 6.3% (+6.3)
Other Ind and Grn didn't stand this time round.
Moreton Hall (St Edmundsbury) result:
IND: 56.0% (+22.4)
CON: 21.7% (-22.1)
LDEM: 10.4% (+10.4)
LAB: 7.2% (-15.4)
UKIP: 4.8% (+4.8)
Miles Quaritch
Member
Labour barely holding their own against UKIP, a party that has literally no use or reason to exist any more has to have them worried for their prospects at the next G.E.
killer_clank
Member
That clip is funny but it's clearly taken out of context for effect.
Labour are a party that represents nobody and stands for nothing. They'll carry on with their casual xenophobia and racism to try to appeal to idiots who live in what were traditional Labour voting towns that are 95% white British but are outraged that they sometimes hear Polish people "speaking foreign" on the bus home not realising those people have long since left them and are not coming back.
They try to put across what they think is a moderate position of being in support of Brexit but staying in the EEA and having full control of immigration but nobody is buying what they are selling because it's obviously unattainable. They're the party of the 0%.
The Friendly Monster
Member
They really feel like a party of the past. Jeremy seems to be wanting to fight fights that are long lost. We can't fight the corporations with unions and picket lines any more, we need international cooperation to do it.
Of course I'd be infinitely happier with Labour in power than the Tories.
JonnyDBrit
Member
Council By-Elections, right? Looking at it, Lib Dems have apparently been a popular second (occasionally even first) party in those general regions, so add in it being local elections where more dedicated bases are important, so its none too surprising. The severity of the gains gives me some small hope though.
The Friendly Monster
Member
Yeah, interestingly all the constituencies those districts are in voted out in the EU referendum.
JonnyDBrit
Member
That is an especially interesting point. Mind, these particular seats could have still been towards Remain - since I don't think the breakdown of Remain/Leave votes went beyond the constituency level - but it does paint an interesting picture of potential changes in views since the Referendum.
The Friendly Monster
Member
Of course, it's also a tiny data point, about a thousand people voting in each of these elections, and the Tories in question probably were doing shit jobs and deserved to be ousted.
Still it can't be a bad sign for the Lib Dems.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
I wouldn't read into by-elections too much. Besides, those aren't even especially bad results in a historical context. Lots of these are areas where historically the Lib Dems did really well, but as a result of 2010, leftwing Liberal Democrats tended to swing to Labour because they disapproved of the coalition, and rightwing Liberal Democrats tended to swing to the Conservatives because of David Cameron's cuddly conservatism. This is just the swing back now that the Liberal Democrats are no longer in the coalition and the Conservatives aren't cuddly. So they're not especially abnormal, and I don't think Labour will be worrying about them - the Conservatives will be more worried because if replicated the Liberal Democrats might get a few of their southern toeholds back. Labour will be looking at Con/Lab and UKIP/Lab by-elections (insofar as they actually look at by-elections at all).
The 2017 local elections will be the first proper test for all parties.
The 2017 local elections will be the first proper test for all parties.
nekkid
It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan.
We are in the throes of going it alone, being independent and having to forge new relationships.
It's fucking TERRIFYING that the person at the top is such an introvert at this time.
She's not an introvert lol.
She's just toxic, a pariah. They don't want anything to do with her after all the shit she and her goons she appointed have talked. We're friendless now in Europe.
Both of you should stop dramatizing politics. This isn't a telenovela or Breakfast Club.
nekkid
It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan.
You've been awake during 2016, right?
Given what we've seen of the naked exasperation expressed by the respective counterparts in in Europe when dealing with the likes of Boris I can't imagine that gets you a lot of friends.
Pretty much. She's sent muppets to the EU who parrot utter nonsense to pretend our position is much stronger than it is because the headlines appease the Tory's new found working-class Brexit base. We can just roll our eyes, but those guys have to actually deal with them and respond in earnest.
Yes. And people treating political debates or summits as if they were TV shows or popularity contests is a huge part of the problem.
Imagine having to negotiate with David Davis and those that will be answering to him. It's going to end in tears. Of laughter.
The EU negotiators must be licking their lips in anticipation. I bet they can't wait to get stuck in.
Tomorrow's FT
Could sneak them in on the Nissan assurances, they're from Japan too, why not.
UK government should just outright buy the banks' EU business. Nationalize those banks, yeah!
PdotMichael
Banned
Not Japan too!
Why is the world against the people of the UK who just want to live like in the 19th century?
Why is the world against the people of the UK who just want to live like in the 19th century?
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
...do they gasp differently in Spain?
The fishing industry, which campaigned very heavily for Leave, have been warned by a House of Lords report that they will require access to EU markets in order to continue being profitable.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-38345826
Oh, and access to that market will probably mean allowing EU fishing boats into UK fishing waters.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-38345826
Oh, and access to that market will probably mean allowing EU fishing boats into UK fishing waters.
Huw_Dawson
Member
Every new LD councillor represents:
1. One more voice on a local council
2. A more emboldened and active local party (winning = more activity due to it being more fun etc)
3. Slightly more money for the national party
4. Potentially someone's stepping stone to becoming an MP (see: Tim Farron)
5. More data for the party locally to use.
And a few other things.
The LDs have had their best year for by-elections in the party's history We are at something like +25. Plus we have a new MP.
The next GE is going to be fascinating to see how far this train goes.
If the by-elections are any indication, this coming year's council and mayoral elections could see a real humiliation for both May and Corbyn.
One thing to consider - with PMQs dragging on for so long on Wednesday, allowing Farron to ask a question well over 10 minutes after the session was supposed to end might be a sign of the speaker being more willing to call Farron in general. One can hope, PMQs are a weekly trout slapping contest at the moment.
Do they think British people will lose their appetite for cod and haddock the moment Brexit happens? No? Then there'll still be a massive demand for imports, so they'll still have to export their fish, and so we're right back at square one.
And the CFP just moved in favour of UK fisheries. You can't make this shit up.
BBC News had a mini-doc yesterday on some miserable little town that overwhelmingly voted Brexit. Had one of the lowest amounts of professional workers in the UK and opportunities were slim if you weren't prepared to leave town. All of them, barring one intelligent, young girl, insisted Brexit would revitalise the town, but no one said why. Do they think industry will magically fall out of the sky post-Brexit? Businesses will trip over themselves to set up shop in their shitty town full of uneducated workers? The sheer level of entitlement in this country is stunning - they're all fucked.
"Since UK fishing only produces a half of one percent of GDP and employs just 12,000 fishers..."
Amazing that this little industry got so much attention and featured prominently in the media as a justification for a leave vote just because Farage kept banging on about it. I can't muster any sympathy for them. They have benefited greatly from exporting and the EU but they chose to bite the hand that feeds them.
I live in a town that still has a small fishing industry and you'll occasionally hear around town how they feel they shouldn't be limited by EU quotas and should be allowed to catch all they want.
They simply cannot grasp the concept that doing such a thing means the fish would 'run out'
They simply cannot grasp the concept that doing such a thing means the fish would 'run out'
PdotMichael
Banned
The joke is that the fishing quota has the effect that the idiots can start fishing more in 2020 again.
Out of curiosity are any of you guys on the mainland aware of the shit going down in NI at the min?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-northern-ireland-38181468
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-northern-ireland-38181468
RedSparrows
Member
I am all for small industry being supported as much as possible. I just wonder how things like the domestic government's general treatment of British light and heavy industry plays in this Brexit atmosphere. Just musing out loud.
Nature of the beast..... history tells us this.... if you see a way to make yourself more profitable, but you can not because of restrictions, you will blame those restrictions...
The people you elect are no different, show me a politician who makes policy decisions that will help someone in 30 years, and I will show you a liar...hence why in the UK et al we spend 5 years perpetually going over the same issues...NHS etc as the decisions that could really help, would be grossly unpopular today, but help in the long run....
Never going to happen
First I've seen of it.
Any chance of the UK government coming to its senses and cancelling the whole thing yet? Maybe if it gets dragged out enough to the next general election and the LD party gets in power? They are the only ones still supporting remain was it?
There are so many red flashing warning lights going off with this whole thing it seems like that the UK must be running out of them, and yet you still move forward with this whole moronic thing, based off a win margin of less than 2%.
There are so many red flashing warning lights going off with this whole thing it seems like that the UK must be running out of them, and yet you still move forward with this whole moronic thing, based off a win margin of less than 2%.
See I've always wondered how much you guys see of what goes on over here. I don't think it'll impact the mainland too much as the money will be coming from the block grant we get anyway so maybe its not an issue for the rest of the uk.
JonnyDBrit
Member
Lib Dems are the only party of real note (though I think the Greens might be?) supporting Remain, at least openly. Labour technically speaking has no stance beyond 'respecting the will of the people', so while they nominally intend to temper it, they won't oppose Brexit either.
Technically, we can still call it off. Article 50 is the only means we have of going about it, and until such time it is definitively triggered, it can always be called off. The problem with that is that it seems increasingly unlikely. May has gone from looking like someone who'd put it off until it is 'safe' to do so (ie, never) to someone who'll push it so as to basically justify her current position as Prime Minister - she carries the will of the people, ergo she leads the nation. Labour as mentioned aren't acting as, well, an actual opposition, so even if triggering A50 goes to Parliament, they may well get badgered into supporting it at some stage, however many delays - because they don't want to lose their northern voting bloc.
When neither of the big two parties are actively opposed to something, it's difficult to stop.
I think the only real hope is that there's a second referendum on the terms of any exit deal that, if rejected, means the exit would be called off.
The issue with that is actually hammering out the details of a deal before it's too late to call the whole thing off.
Don't count on Labour, as long as Corbyn is in charge then Labour will 100% support leaving the EU. Corbyn is every bit as anti-EU as Farage.
The issue with that is actually hammering out the details of a deal before it's too late to call the whole thing off.
Don't count on Labour, as long as Corbyn is in charge then Labour will 100% support leaving the EU. Corbyn is every bit as anti-EU as Farage.
I thought legally it wouldn't be possible to stop this process once A50 is triggered?
If we don't have a deal after the 2 years we're out with no trade deal
That's still not clear. Some people say it can't be revoked once triggered whilst others, including the person who wrote it, believe that it can. There is no definitive answer on that issue yet.
The article itself doesn't state categorically one way or the other.
It seems IF revoking is possible (which probably would have to be decided by the european court of justice) either the UK would have all other 27 states to agree stopping the Art. 50 process or basically rejoin the EU under art. 49.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...riggered-senior-academics-claim-a7393661.html
Mail Online has been forced to pay out £150,000 to a British Muslim family over a Katie Hopkins column which falsely accused them of extremism.
The column, published in December last year, said that US authorities were right to stop Mahmood Tariq Mahmood, his brother Mohammed Zahid Mahmood and nine children from travelling to Los Angeles for a trip to Disneyland last year. Hopkins also suggested that the two brothers were extremists with links to al-Qaida.
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2...m-family-over-katie-hopkins-column?CMP=twt_gu
Other thread is dead..
They ahould fine the may for ever racist article
The column, published in December last year, said that US authorities were right to stop Mahmood Tariq Mahmood, his brother Mohammed Zahid Mahmood and nine children from travelling to Los Angeles for a trip to Disneyland last year. Hopkins also suggested that the two brothers were extremists with links to al-Qaida.
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2...m-family-over-katie-hopkins-column?CMP=twt_gu
Other thread is dead..
They ahould fine the may for ever racist article
Huw_Dawson
Member
Lib Dems, SNP, Plaid, Greens, and some of the NI parties are all pro-Remain.
Labour has no position on anything.
The centrist Tories want soft Brexit, the majority of Tories want hard Brexit.
UKIP wants hard Brexit.
The majority of the British public want either for us to remain or for a soft Brexit.
May is in a 100% impossible situation.
JonnyDBrit
Member
Right, sorry about my English bias there. Better summary in all.
I now know how Brexit and trump happened. I had the misfortune of debating the economic impact of Brexit against some dude who insisted that the pound recovered the day after Brexit. I showed a graph of the year long performance of the pound against the dollar and my objective facts were "countered" by his subjective opinions. I need to know when to walk away.
The dude was insisting the will of the people needed to be respected despite the fact the Brexit vote was non binding, despite the fact its economic suicide, despite the fact the Brexit architects wanted nothing to do with it, despite the fact their 11pm June 23nd claims were met with 7am retractions on June 24, despite the fact he can't list oppressive EU laws and trying to explain parliamentary sovereignty to him was a lost cause . Graphs charting the performance of the pound against the dollar didn't away him, he insisted it was only a one day thing, dude couldn't read a graph, offers to find BBC articles did nothing for him, offers to find the Sun's tiny page 30 retractions vs their front page claims did fuck all too. I wanted to show him Farage walking back from his claims the morning of Brexit and nothing sunk in. He then started talking about if the will of the people is not followed the UK can't call itself a democracy. I then tried to explain the difference between a delegate and a representative, different forms of democracy, representative vs direct I.... I just can't.
Roberto Larcos
Member
Huw_Dawson
Member
Try and get him to state his argument, then use that argument against him.
To win any debate, you can't use facts or statistics. You have to kick your opponent's feet out from under him.
This is a useful one to explore: "He then started talking about if the will of the people is not followed the UK can't call itself a democracy."
He'll attack your your arguments and justifications and ignore any valid ones, because he knows they're valid. You have to make him defend his invalid ones. Ask HIM for proof. Try and get HIM to convince you. Ignore any whataboutism and stuff you know is BS, and ignore any misdirection. Lock in one one thing and beat him with that.
If he's a hard Brexit fan, ask if he thought the UK voted for hard Brexit. Then ask him what the question on the referendum was. Ask him to explain the difference between the EEA and EU. Ask if we voted to leave the EEA. Ask if we voted for what our relationship should look like.
This is the same technique you can use against anyone you want to convince. People are selfish and proud as a rule. You have to get them to give up.
A good example was once when I was arguing with a Gamergater. He kept trying to change the subject and deflect the difficult question. Every response was me asking him to answer the question. He eventually got so irate that he quit the discussion.
You have to attack with logic, because logic is irrefutable. By invoking facts and statistics, you are not attacking, you are defending, and you are giving the person you are debating with room to breathe. To convince, you must be able to crush your opponent's argument. This is something the right is very, very good at.
So how is Boris these days?
Continually made into a laughing stock, both by his own actions and constant digs from May and other senior cabinet members.
Which is great for the country abroad, I'm sure.
These people are like the Terminator, they can't be bargained with, they can't be reasoned with. You give them a noose and let them hang themselves by their own arguments and they'd drag you along with them. Dude didn't care if i asked him to explain why the vote should be honoured when people won't get what they want and people will be worst off. I am not sure if out of principle or stubbornness.
Boris is, and always will be, a fucking bellend.
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