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[Pancake Mix]

The SNP will always make noise and want more powers and ultimately independence, but there's still one way to hopefully reduce their influence over time, and that's to remain in the single market or even the EU. Scotland would not be able to join the EU on its own right away and most everyone knows it.

I can pretty much guarantee losing the Union Flag and part of the island of Great Britain would not be something most Brexit voters would want. As things stand now Brexit didn't move the dial, thankfully. But the SNP will always pretend that it did, because that is what they live for...

Northern Ireland might follow Scotland in that event, as so much of the connection is Scottish...

Nobody wants a rump state that would result other than a tiny minority of English nationalists. In contrast, the UK is incredibly popular in England and Wales. Staying in the single market as a sort of Norway but outside Schengen would be a good compromise that could prevent economic disaster and potentially the breakup of the country.

 

[Audioboxer]

Scotland will hold a new referendum on separation from the UK unless it can stay in the European Union single market, Nicola Sturgeon will warn this week, adding to the pressure on Theresa May as the UK prime minister draws up plans for Brexit.

Scottish First Minister Sturgeon will detail proposals for a new arrangement with the UK to enable her country to remain inside the single market area after Brexit, even if the London government pulls England out. Voters in Scotland chose to stay in the EU in June’s referendum and now face being pulled out against their wishes by votes cast in England, she said in an commentary published in the Financial Times on Sunday.

“It remains my view, and that of the government I lead, that the best option for Scotland remains full membership of the EU as an independent member state,” Sturgeon said. “Independence must remain an option for safeguarding our European status, if it becomes clear that our interests cannot be protected in any other way.”

Sturgeon said she wanted the UK as a whole to remain inside the single market, with tariff-free trade and freedom for banks to provide services across the 28-member bloc. “If the UK government opts not to remain in the single market, our position is that Scotland should still be supported to do so - not instead of, but in addition to, free trade across the UK.” she said.

A policy paper will outline how such a radical step could be achieved, including which powers would need to be devolved from London to Edinburgh, she said, warning that 80,000 jobs would be lost if Scotland left the single market. Such a solution will require “political goodwill and an openness to new ways of doing things,” Sturgeon said.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...eferendum-european-union-single-a7483926.html

 

[Pancake Mix]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...eferendum-european-union-single-a7483926.html

Speaking about her proposal, she mentions immigration control devolved to Scotland. She would have to compromise on that. If single market access (by accepting freedom of movement for EU citizens and EU citizens alone) happened, then there'd still be a large amount of immigrants for the Scottish economy as desired regardless.

A lot of the rest I could see happening in exchange for some sort of guarantee of no more referendums in our lifetime. It should be remembered that the SNP got everything, absolutely everything they could possibly get in the last referendum and the majority of Scots believe in a United Kingdom regardless.

The SNP received:
-Complete acceptance of the vote by Westminster
-A youth vote of 16 and 17-year olds, who they excepted to win with but voted against independence
-The vote being entirely first past-the-post with a simple majority of 50 percent plus a single vote being satisfactory for the breakup of the country
-EU citizens could vote, which also worked against their favour but Westminster would never force and indeed wasn't the case in any other UK referendum.

It should be remembered that Salmond is going against the majority of his countrymen's wishes in his barking in the same way that Brexit is also against the wishes. It's not democratic to have a vote every few years until you get the result you want, no matter how much that arsehole thinks it is.

Sturgeon at least seems more willing to compromise.

 

[Audioboxer]

Speaking about her proposal, she mentions immigration control devolved to Scotland. She would have to compromise on that. If single market access (by accepting freedom of movement for EU citizens and EU citizens alone) happened, then there'd still be a large amount of immigrants for the Scottish economy as desired regardless.

A lot of the rest I could see happening in exchange for some sort of guarantee of no more referendums in our lifetime. It should be remembered that the SNP got everything, absolutely everything they could possibly get in the last referendum and the majority of Scots believe in a United Kingdom regardless.

The SNP received:
-Complete acceptance of the vote by Westminster
-A youth vote of 16 and 17-year olds, who they excepted to win with but voted against independence
-The vote being entirely first past-the-post with a simple majority of 50 percent plus a single vote being satisfactory for the breakup of the country
-EU citizens could vote, which also worked against their favour but Westminster would never force and indeed wasn't the case in any other UK referendum.

It should be remembered that Salmond is going against the majority of his countrymen's wishes in his barking in the same way that Brexit is also against the wishes. It's not democratic to have a vote every few years until you get the result you want, no matter how much that arsehole thinks it is.

Sturgeon at least seems more willing to compromise.

The people voted for a manifesto and a party that said if there is a major shift in the political scene a referendum could be revisited. Salmond isn't in charge of the party anymore, it was Sturgeon who spearheaded that. People voted for it. To jump from a potential for a referendum if things majorly change to the mass hysteria of "omg referendum every few years!" is simply annoying as fuck. I get that you want to die with the UK being the UK, hence the red carpet rollout of continually saying "once in a lifetime", but the UK is not the UK as it was in 2014 anymore. The Scottish people have every right to consider their stance from 2014 after the UK is about to completely change within 24 months. Hence the majority that voted NO in 2014 can at least be proposed as a portion did so believing in the UK in the EU in 2014, not the UK out of the EU 2 years later. I'm sure your memory will serve you well to remember how the SNP got attacked in 2014 to say good luck getting back in the EU... It was a strong bargaining chip of the remain campaign.

 

[Pancake Mix]

The people voted for a manifesto and a party that said if there is a major shift in the political scene a referendum could be revisited. Salmond isn't in charge of the party anymore, it was Sturgeon who spearheaded that. People voted for it. To jump from a potential for a referendum if things majorly change to the mass hysteria of "omg referendum every few years!" is simply annoying as fuck.

I'm aware of my bias, but I really think there will always be something, be it the EU or something else.

I get that you want to die with the UK being the UK, hence the red carpet rollout of continually saying "once in a lifetime", but the UK is not the UK as it was in 2014 anymore. The Scottish people have every right to consider their stance from 2014 after the UK is about to completely change within 24 months. Hence the majority that voted NO in 2014 can at least be proposed as a portion did so believing in the UK in the EU in 2014, not the UK out of the EU 2 years later. I'm sure your memory will serve you well to remember how the SNP got attacked in 2014 to say good luck getting back in the EU... It was a strong bargaining chip of the remain campaign.

Yeah, I would have liked that bargaining chip, personally.

Maybe the single market can be worked out with the customs union still on the table. Ordinary folk do not seem to understand that the UK, Ireland, and Denmark have opt-outs from migrant quotas, though the latter is in Schengen so good luck. Like, it shouldn't have even come up as they can be denied locally, yet it was plastered on billboards. Absolutely bizarre. Yes migrants were only part of the reason why so many were anti-immigrant, but enough to win the referendum if people understood? I bet.

 

[AHA-Lambda]

Sturgeon unveils plans for keeping Scotland in Europe

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUBXGQAjDYs

 

[Audioboxer]

I'm aware of my bias, but I really think there will always be something, be it the EU or something else.



Yeah, I would have liked that bargaining chip, personally.

Maybe the single market can be worked out with the customs union still on the table. Ordinary folk do not seem to understand that the UK, Ireland, and Denmark have opt-outs from migrant quotas, though the latter is in Schengen so good luck. Like, it shouldn't have even come up as they can be denied locally, yet it was plastered on billboards. Absolutely bizarre. Yes migrants were only part of the reason why so many were anti-immigrant, but enough to win the referendum if people understood? I bet.

How would it sit with you though if the UK doesn't do well in negotiations and Scotland does have a chance to stay in the EU on its own? As in what would come out tops for you, keeping the UK together or seeing at least part of the old-UK manage to stay in the EU? It's not easy to answer, but all I can say if you are a Scot your bias might be stronger than someone living in the rUK in that scenario above.

Sturgeon unveils plans for keeping Scotland in Europe

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUBXGQAjDYs

Lrnhow2 trim videos Scottish Government lol. Doesn't start till 16 minutes.

edit: Ah wait, might have been a livestream. Going to watch but it might be worth getting its own topic in offtopic if enough substance is in it.

 

[sammex]

.

 

[Orniletter]

Not bad, I laughed !

 

[Pancake Mix]

How would it sit with you though if the UK doesn't do well in negotiations and Scotland does have a chance to stay in the EU on its own? As in what would come out tops for you, keeping the UK together or seeing at least part of the old-UK manage to stay in the EU? It's not easy to answer, but all I can say if you are a Scot your bias might be stronger than someone living in the rUK in that scenario above.

The EU will not negotiate with Scotland on its own and I don't think they'd make it welcoming if they ever did.

It's a process that takes years, and Scotland would not receive its old spot for very good reasons.

http://www.epp.eu/files/uploads/2015/11/Terirotorial-integrity-of-States.pdf

The Treaty of the European Union (in Article 4.2) enshrines the respect for constitutional
systems of the Member States when it states that “The Union shall respect
the equality of Member States before the Treaties as well as their national identities,
inherent in their fundamental structures, political and constitutional, inclusive of
regional and local self-government. It shall respect their essential State functions,
including ensuring the territorial integrity of the State, […]”.

•Any form of secessionism or external interference in a Member State is contrary
to the very inclusive nature of the Union. This integrating nature has always been
respected and defended by the Union since its inception through the application
of the Treaties and respect for international law.

It would be a terrible look if the EU tried to take a chunk of an ex-member state with it, and I don't believe they would. Launching a new currency in a new state would also make it difficult to be economically stable at first as the EU demands of new members.

It's much better if the whole of the UK can find a way to stay in the single market in a sort of Norway situation than go into hypotheticals about a divorce. Economically, Scotland does business far, far more business with the rest of the UK than the rest of the Europe.

 

[cabot]

Still feel its far too early for pushing independence, we need to see the damage of brexit before a convincing amount of voters switch to yes.

I still stand by a guesstimate of around 2020 being the best time for a successful yes vote if a damaging (read: Hard) Brexit occurs.

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

Guess the uncertainty will end soon so we can plan for our futures properly. Brexit plans will supposedly be released by New Year. Remains to be seen if this is more detailed than random soundbites.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38383216

 

[JonathanEx]

Guess the uncertainty will end soon so we can plan for our futures properly. Brexit plans will supposedly be released by New Year. Remains to be seen if this is more detailed than random soundbites.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38383216

I'm still not convinced the plan will be any more than

Brexit Plan

• Britain will leave the European Union, as Brexit means Brexit
• We will make incredible deals, the best deals, with the other countries
• But not the European ones, they're bad
• ..
• ..
• ..
• Finish

 

[8bit]

I'm still not convinced the plan will be any more than

You missed profit! off the end,

 

[Audioboxer]

The EU will not negotiate with Scotland on its own and I don't think they'd make it welcoming if they ever did.

It's a process that takes years, and Scotland would not receive its old spot for very good reasons.

http://www.epp.eu/files/uploads/2015/11/Terirotorial-integrity-of-States.pdf



It would be a terrible look if the EU tried to take a chunk of an ex-member state with it, and I don't believe they would. Launching a new currency in a new state would also make it difficult to be economically stable at first as the EU demands of new members.

It's much better if the whole of the UK can find a way to stay in the single market in a sort of Norway situation than go into hypotheticals about a divorce. Economically, Scotland does business far, far more business with the rest of the UK than the rest of the Europe.

Why not? Independent countries can apply for EU citizenship?

As for not liking hypotheticals surely you can understand why they are needed? Until the UK gets to stay in the single market it's not a guarantee. Remember what happens when you don't do any planning beforehand? You get Brexit as we have gotten it. I for one am happy the SNP seems suitably prepared for all outcomes.

 

[Pancake Mix]

Does anyone in power even want to be a fully independent member of the WTO? It'd be incredibly difficult to get Spain and Argentina's approval...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/britain-wto-schedule-argentina-spain-brexit-latest-a7468766.html

...cause they're not getting the Falklands (which were British before they were ever Spanish and have no indigenous population) or Gibraltar (which is similar to Spain's continued presence in North Africa). That would be a huge violation of the right to self-determination.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibraltar_sovereignty_referendum,_1967

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibraltar_sovereignty_referendum,_2002

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falkland_Islands_status_referendum,_1986

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falkland_Islands_sovereignty_referendum,_2013

Why not? Independent countries can apply for EU citizenship?

As for not liking hypotheticals surely you can understand why they are needed? Until the UK gets to stay in the single market it's not a guarantee. Remember what happens when you don't do any planning beforehand? You get Brexit as we have gotten it. I for one am happy the SNP seems suitably prepared for all outcomes.

The EU promises to respect the territorial integrity of member states. It would not be a good look if they encouraged the break up of an ex-member state either.

The paper is interesting in that it has a good point about further powers that could be devolved, potentially, including ones being repatriated from the EU. I don't think immigration would work, and the extent it would be needed if the entire UK remains in the single market is essentially zero. If these proposals are genuine and cooler heads overall prevail from March, then things should be fine.

 

[Audioboxer]

Does anyone in power even want to be a fully independent member of the WTO? It'd be incredibly difficult to get Spain and Argentina's approval...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/britain-wto-schedule-argentina-spain-brexit-latest-a7468766.html

...cause they're not getting the Falklands (which were British before they were ever Spanish and have no indigenous population) or Gibraltar (which is similar to Spain's continued presence in North Africa). That would be a huge violation of the right to self-determination.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibraltar_sovereignty_referendum,_1967

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibraltar_sovereignty_referendum,_2002

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falkland_Islands_status_referendum,_1986

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falkland_Islands_sovereignty_referendum,_2013



The EU promises to respect the territorial integrity of member states. It would not be a good look if they encouraged the break up of an ex-member state either.

The paper is interesting in that it has a good point about further powers that could be devolved, potentially, including ones being repatriated from the EU. I don't think immigration would work, and the extent it would be needed if the entire UK remains in the single market is essentially zero. If these proposals are genuine and cooler heads overall prevail from March, then things should be fine.

But they wouldn't be having a hand in anything, it would be the Scottish government proposing and the Scottish people choosing. Then if Westminster/London acknowledged as legit, a legal separation.

Things probably will be fine in regards to the single market, my only point is its best to have contingencies for worst case scenarios.

 

[Pancake Mix]

But they wouldn't be having a hand in anything, it would be the Scottish government proposing and the Scottish people choosing. Then if Westminster/London acknowledged as legit, a legal separation.

Things probably will be fine in regards to the single market, my only point is its best to have contingencies for worst case scenarios.

Right, but I'm saying that Scotland would have to enter the EU the same way that any other country would have to. A position is not guaranteed and the currency situation would cause a great deal of uncertainty. The EU is not going to do anything to encourage a secessionist movement.

About the proposal, I agree with you about this.

 

[nekkid]

I think an independent Scotland that wants to be part of the EU is going to have a long wait, and is going to have to accept the euro. It just won't have the weight to throw around to say otherwise.

 

[Lirlond]

I think an independent Scotland that wants to be part of the EU is going to have a long wait, and is going to have to accept the euro. It just won't have the weight to throw around to say otherwise.

I'd happily use the Euro if it meant staying in the single market.

 

[Pancake Mix]

I think an independent Scotland that wants to be part of the EU is going to have a long wait, and is going to have to accept the euro. It just won't have the weight to throw around to say otherwise.

Agreed. The thing everyone needs now is a compromise. It's possible to move to Europe's periphery, ala Norway or Switzerland, while not doing significant economic self-harm and losing political capital between the home nations.

 

[JonathanEx]

You missed profit! off the end,

Don't be silly, a profit after Brexit is too far for this fantasy

 

[Audioboxer]

I'd happily use the Euro if it meant staying in the single market.

Well Scottish bank notes are useless in the rest of the UK anyway

 

[theaface]

I'm still not convinced the plan will be any more than

Got your three missing steps:

- Have cake
- Eat cake
- Take back control

 

[-Silver-]

Got your three missing steps:

- Have cake
- Eat cake
- Take back control

This is what I expect, a list of buzzwords to satisfy the hardcore and those that are very uncertain and want to hear something positive. A BS plan isn't the same as a realistic plan and I doubt we'd be getting a realistic one.

 

[Lagamorph]

Nigel Farage faces threat of legal action over Hope Not Hate accusation

Oh please go through with it. Please.

 

[JonathanEx]

Got your three missing steps:

- Have cake
- Eat cake
- Take back control

Thanks. I'll fax it over now, in my new position of Head of Brexit PR

Nigel Farage faces threat of legal action over Hope Not Hate accusation

Oh please go through with it. Please.

I'm quite liking this idea of putting hate figures through for libel. Hopkins/Daily Mail the other day, I believe she's also due in court in Feb for libelling Jack Monroe. And then this. Partially, it means that if giving hate figures a place to speak has a financial risk to outlets, well maybe then it's harder for LBC to let them present shows, let alone be guests as regularly. I'm sure there's issues with this direction which others will point out, but I'm enjoying it for now.

HAHAHAHAHA of course LBC won't stop they'll do any old shit for ratings

 

[Tacitus_]

I think an independent Scotland that wants to be part of the EU is going to have a long wait, and is going to have to accept the euro. It just won't have the weight to throw around to say otherwise.

I dunno. Spain probably wouldn't be opposed to fast tracking Scotland if they split from the UK after it leaves the EU as that sidesteps their Catalonia issue.

 

[nekkid]

I dunno. Spain probably wouldn't be opposed to fast tracking Scotland if they split from the UK after it leaves the EU as that sidesteps their Catalonia issue.

Spain doesn't have a particularly powerful presence in the EU themselves.

 

[Roberto Larcos]

Spain doesn't have a particularly powerful presence in the EU themselves.

A powerful presence isn't required to veto membership. Any member state can do it - it's the reason Macedonia isn't in the EU today - Greece vetoed their accession.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

It would be a poor decision Scotland to join the EU anyway if the rUK is not a single market member. The rUK is a much bigger trade partner for Scotland than the EU is (over three times as much 'trade' takes place between the rUK and Scotland than between Scotland and the EU). Arguing that Scotland should join the EU is synonymous with arguing that the UK should prefer trade with Canada. It just doesn't hold up, at all. I don't see how in good faith anyone can be pro-Remain in an EU referendum but also pro-EU for independent Scotland in the event the rUK hardBrexited; they're inconsistent stances.

 

[nekkid]

A powerful presence isn't required to veto membership. Any member state can do it - it's the reason Macedonia isn't in the EU today - Greece vetoed their accession.

We're not talking about a veto. We're talking about the power to fast track a member joining.

 

[Tacitus_]

We're not talking about a veto. We're talking about the power to fast track a member joining.

If they were to split from an ex-EU country, Scotland would already be compliant in most if not all of the required stuff for EU membership. So with no country vetoing their membership they should be able to join fairly quickly.

 

[Roberto Larcos]

We're not talking about a veto. We're talking about the power to fast track a member joining.

My mistake.

 

[Uzzy]

Mandelson says UK could broaden Brexit negotiating strategy.

Lord Mandelson, the former EU trade commissioner, has urged the UK government to broaden its Brexit negotiating strategy claiming there is a new appetite in the EU to review how rules on free movement of workers within the EU should operate.

In public EU leaders are retaining a firm public line saying free movement is one of the pillars of the EU, and insisting the UK will not be allowed to cherry pick those aspects of the EU that it likes.

But Mandelson believes the UK should be investigating the new flexibility being shown by mainstream politicians in Holland, Denmark, Germany and France, and see if a deal can be reached on free movement.

If Mandelson is being accurate here, one wonders if that could lead to the kind of deal that would keep the UK in the EU, but still be politically palatable to those who voted to leave. That'd be very interesting.

 

[Roberto Larcos]

Mandelson says UK could broaden Brexit negotiating strategy.

If Mandelson is being accurate here, one wonders if that could lead to the kind of deal that would keep the UK in the EU, but still be politically palatable to those who voted to leave. That'd be very interesting.

I'll believe it when I see it. I don't see Merkel going for it. Any such deal would undermine the EU fundamentally, and would pave the way for multiple exits.

 

[KingSnake]

You are forgetting the fact that East European countries can veto such a proposal.

Plus isn't a bit too late now to try to change the EU? The bridge was crossed. Triggering article 50 is just a formality, UK is out of EU in the mind of many already.

 

[nekkid]

It would be interesting to hear the opinion of the right in that circumstance. Would they still maintain their "get us out" attitude if the biggest concern of staying in is eliminated?

Probably.

 

[Number45]

Who are these mainstream politicians he's talking about? Is he suggesting that the rise in popularity of far right parties in those countries could very well be the ace up our sleeve? Because I'm not aware of any known weakness in the stance provided by those that actually matter to the negotiations.

 

[nekkid]

Who are these mainstream politicians he's talking about? Is he suggesting that the rise in popularity of far right parties in those countries could very well be the ace up our sleeve? Because I'm not aware of any known weakness in the stance provided by those that actually matter to the negotiations.

Unless you have an inside track I'm unaware of, then that's what he's saying - their inward and outward stances on the matter are different.

Although it all sounds like wishful thinking, to be honest.

 

[Number45]

Unless you have an inside track I'm unaware of, then that's what he's saying - their inward and outward stances on the matter are different.

Although it all sounds like wishful thinking, to be honest.

Fair enough.

I just can't see anyone that doesn't share "our" agenda on immigration conceding on that point in particular. Because surely if they get to the negotiating table and roll over it would be suicide for them both in their country (who broadly support EU membership as I understand it) and for the EU as a whole.

 

[TimmmV]

It would be a poor decision Scotland to join the EU anyway if the rUK is not a single market member. The rUK is a much bigger trade partner for Scotland than the EU is (over three times as much 'trade' takes place between the rUK and Scotland than between Scotland and the EU). Arguing that Scotland should join the EU is synonymous with arguing that the UK should prefer trade with Canada. It just doesn't hold up, at all. I don't see how in good faith anyone can be pro-Remain in an EU referendum but also pro-EU for independent Scotland in the event the rUK hardBrexited; they're inconsistent stances.

Economically (and in any practical sense) thats totally right, however I can totally understand a Scottish person feeling closer politically to Europe than they are to England.

Scotland is a country that basically never votes Tory, and after leaving the EU, will suffer the full force of Conservative policies, without the EU offering any kind of handbrake. That plus the fact they are basically being dragged out of the EU by England & Wales, means I can understand if a Scottish person no longer wants to be part of the UK

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Economically (and in any practical sense) thats totally right, however I can totally understand a Scottish person feeling closer politically to Europe than they are to England.

Scotland is a country that basically never votes Tory, and after leaving the EU, will suffer the full force of Conservative policies, without the EU offering any kind of handbrake. That plus the fact they are basically being dragged out of the EU by England & Wales, means I can understand if a Scottish person no longer wants to be part of the UK

Oh, I'm not arguing against independence (I mean, I do, but that wasn't such an argument). I'm pointing out that if Scotland did become independent, it would not be in the interests of Scotland to join the EU unless the rUK was also a single market member; instead, it would be better for an independent Scotland not to join the EU and instead negotiate a bilateral trade deal with both the EU and rUK.

 

[Pancake Mix]

It's in Scotland's interests to stay with it's largest trading partner by far: it's own sovereign state, the United Kingdom.

If they were to split from an ex-EU country, Scotland would already be compliant in most if not all of the required stuff for EU membership. So with no country vetoing their membership they should be able to join fairly quickly.

That's a big if. Sounds similar to the Brexit cake wanters and cake eaters. The EU does not encourage secessionist movements and it would look bad if they tore the UK apart.

 

[Theonik]

An independent Scotland in the EEA with bilateral trade agreements with the UK is probably the best outcome for Scotland but the EU might not accept this as it gives the UK little england access to the single market they could abuse.

 

[Pancake Mix]

An independent Scotland in the EEA with bilateral trade agreements with the UK is probably the best outcome for Scotland but the EU might not accept this as it gives the UK little england access to the single market they could abuse.

Come now.

Anyways, that's not really the best outcome, nor did Brexit move the dial:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_second_Scottish_independence_referendum#Following_EU_Membership_Referendum

You're also ignoring the difficulties of Scotland having its own currency in that arrangement.

The best outcome in the UK as a whole remains in the Customs Union (avoiding dealing with Spain and Argentina at the WTO) and remain in the single market with exemptions. That way nobody flirts with the economic self-harm that both Brexiters and nationalists so desperately desire.

Failing that, given the issue of free movement, remaining in the Customs Union, just like Turkey does, and work out the maximum single market access possible... Not ideal, but it could work, and the customs issue would be dealt with for Northern Ireland. Leaving the customs union would have to lead to checks on the Irish border, there's no getting around it. Not a big deal for Switzerland or Norway, but it would be for Northern Ireland and the ROI.

It's pretty clear that membership in the European parliament isn't the most important thing, as every major party in the UK is willing to compromise on that (minus the Lib Dems who are putting up the good fight). It's all about that single market access, or as much of it as possible.

Leave voters were massively mislead with internal EU migration lumped in with migrants, when in fact if desired, Westminster can take zero migrants, same with Ireland and Denmark. The rest of the EU was given quotas. I have a hard time believing everyone is as concerned about Romanian waitresses taking jobs than they are about potential undocumented extremists coming in through the backdoor ala continental Europe. Anything that would make that difference clear would likely go a long way towards staying in the single market, though the amount of internal EU migration to the UK is still absolutely huge and increasing. I legitimately think a small amount of leave votes was from people not understanding the distinction between the two, however.

 

[Theonik]

This is assuming Scotland actually has a say in how any of this goes which it does not, It gets dragged along with England's wishes.

Now if the outcome of a Brexit ends up good for Scotland this isn't really even a question.

 

[Pancake Mix]

This is assuming Scotland actually has a say in how any of this goes which it does not, It gets dragged along with England's wishes.

Now if the outcome of a Brexit ends up good for Scotland this isn't really even a question.

The UK voted as a bloc, and a large minority of Scots agreed, but are getting ignored while the independence rhetoric is being turned up again despite a recent Scotland-only mandate to remain in the UK by a difference of over 10 percentage points, in a vote where the SNP got everything they wanted, even a youth vote of 16 and 17-year olds, who instead voted against independence. Almost every council area said no and there's been zero evidence that the Brexit vote moved the dial. Rather, it's been an opportunity for hardline nationalists like Salmond to bark within their bubble and nothing more.

Trying to solve economic self-harm (Brexit) with even more economic self-harm is absurd.

If anything, Scotland and Northern Ireland could be the only thing preventing a hard Brexit.

 

[Theonik]

The UK voted as a bloc, and a large minority of Scots agreed, but are getting ignored while the independence rhetoric is being turned up again despite a recent Scotland-only mandate to remain in the UK by a difference of over 10 percentage points, in a vote where the SNP got everything they wanted, even a youth vote of 16 and 17-year olds, who instead voted against independence. Almost every council area said no and there's been zero evidence that the Brexit vote moved the dial. Rather, it's been an opportunity for hardline nationalists like Salmond to bark within their bubble and nothing more.

Trying to solve economic self-harm (Brexit) with even more economic self-harm is absurd.

If anything, Scotland and Northern Ireland could be the only thing preventing a hard Brexit.

I was talking about how English MPs don't need approval from Scottish MPs to enact any such policy. In this scenario Scotland has 0 say over hard brexit or no.

 

[Tacitus_]

That's a big if. Sounds similar to the Brexit cake wanters and cake eaters. The EU does not encourage secessionist movements and it would look bad if they tore the UK apart.

EU doesn't need to encourage Scotland, the UK is doing it themselves just fine. Besides, all I'm saying that if Scotland does secede, it's got a nigh guaranteed place in the EU.