"The video-game industry has a dress code - driven by a lack of diversity"
- Thread starter oni-link
- Start date
ab.aeterno
Member
Damn, GAF Mobile links don't resolve on desktop still. If this one doesn't work, you can just search for posts by you containing idiot.
Would it be worse if they made a mandatory flanel/plaid shirts with dress pants across both sexes and forced you to conform to everyone elses non-dress code attire?
I think most of these is mental. Without enforcing a dress code I don't see how you can remove outliers from the equation. Removing the ability for people to customize their clothing will remove the issue, but in of itself will make many people uncomfortable as you will be forced to change, and have no choice about it.
My work has never stated a wardrobe other than having to wear closed toed shoes. Most of the women in the office seem to be able to bend the rules and wear opened toed dress shoes however. Some people wear suits if they so desire, however in 100+ degree heat and 80%+ humidity no one wants to have a full suit as a forced dress code if it can be avoided at all costs.
NullPointer
Member
I'd think that being considered an outsider in a creative field could be a very good thing.
Be yourself.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Try again.
Is she, though?
She wrote a mild, slightly rambling article about her observations (which may or may not be flawed) with no particular demands except "hey we need more diversity". Big whoop.
Hahahaha
Same. So glad I can wear jeans and metal shirts at work. No one gives a shit.
...What call to arms?
You know you're the guy accusing me calling someone here an idiot. Just quote me and get over with. I don't even blame you for not getting why I pointed out what idiot means, you just skipped the context.
And like good little clones we all agree on what is relaxing and comfortable, right? I find pants in general uncomfortable, and even short sleeves drive me up the wall. Give me something loose and flowing that breathes, and I can focus on what I'm doing. Your mileage may vary.
Ahem. Pot? Kettle? I'm in my mid-40s and I know exactly where she is coming from, and couldn't agree more.
Opinionatedfish
Member
Lol.
Seriously, sure. Here's $75. Go to Men's Warehouse and get professionally measured for free. Then go to Goodwill and find a decent suit jacket that's a little big on you. Make sure you get it dry cleaned and then take it to the Men's Warehouse. Buy some collar stays and then ask about their fitting service. If you're providing the suit, you can get it fitted pretty cheaply. OR look up a tailor in your yellow pages or on Craigslist. They'll take in the back or fix the sleeves for you.
Being too lazy or incapable of hunting down bargains isn't the companies problem.
Having a dress code is part of the contract of working with a company. Don't want to spend the equivalent of a few Starbucks drinks to make yourself look better? Maybe we should stick you all in Crest Uniforms.
Seriously, it's not expensive and it's even something that can be done yourself if you're handy and cheap.You can get thread and needles in DOLLAR STORES. No excuse.
I never stated what is comfortable for me is comfortable for you or others. I simply stated People in general will wear what is comfortable. I wear shorts and button up shirts personally most of the time and others wear pants and plain old tshirts.
In a studio with 150+ people there around bound to be groups of people who dress alike and for launch events and the like many studios will create custom shirts etc for the team to wear.
OfficerZap
Neo Member
Doubled the percentage of females in five years? That's pretty cool!
Well that settles it. Plaid is the now dress code on gaf.
Mr. Nice_Guy
Member
This blows my mind. Working in media on the east coast you usually wore khakis, a button down, and sometimes a jacket. Granted I was with larger companies but this is usually what I saw. I don't like dressing up when I'm working and hated this traditional work place attire mentality.
When I got to work on the west coast, I loved being able to wear whatever I wanted, because I could be comfortable. The idea that companies would hire someone because they aren't casual enough is like some twisted version of the older mentality the east coast had.
I never got the impression casual was required, just to dress at your own leisure. I hope this is a rare example, because it's makes me sad to think someone wouldn't be hired because they dressed nicely for a interview, one of the few times it's smarter to dress up than not, when they usually dress casually.
As I've stated, I do exactly that. No need to lecture me on taking risks and being myself, trust me. It is important to recognize that both in social contexts and business environments there are potential problems with allowing employees to be othered. Companies need to go out of their way to include people if they want to do more than lip service to diversity.
Oh god am I a game dev?
You are already dev
NullPointer
Member
No lectures here, just that the most creative people I know have always been outsiders to the point where I consider the two inextricably linked.
Article said:
Oh god I love this quote. I've been saying this since my early years in College. I think this issue will resolve itself partly once the industry is more ethnically diverse, but also more inclusive to women. However I think another issue is that people have to be able to program to be deeply involved and I believe people that are likely to be programmers are also likely to enjoy A, B and C.
Japanmanx3
Member
*chuckle*
aspiegamer
Member
You do know that just wearing a dress isn't automatically "formal", right?
Don't be a dick.
Mostly this. Though I can understand why the author was somewhat uncomfortable, she should wear what she feels good in. If others can't respect that it's not her fault.
ShinMaruku
Member
I think you guys got the point it was trying to make. It was a bit too rambly and has too much ideology tied into it but I see the point.
To bitch is to be human.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
You've been saying that attire is linked to creativity?
Opinionatedfish
Member
Don't you know..
When everyone is free to dress comfortably and be themselves.... NO ONE IS FREE TO DRESS COMFORTABLY AND BE THEMSELVES!
Bwa ha ha ha ha.
Ahem.
When everyone is free to dress comfortably and be themselves.... NO ONE IS FREE TO DRESS COMFORTABLY AND BE THEMSELVES!
Bwa ha ha ha ha.
Ahem.
Chet Rippo
Member
Hipsters ruin everything it seems.
The people who made ET for the Atari must have been wearing beige skin-tight leotards....
... Or just have been naked.
TrebuchetGames
Member
Yeah, when I was at college, my attire was all about what I could afford... had nothing to do with creativity. As long as I had something that looked reasonable and could afford to go down the pub, everything was good
silvermember
Banned
I honestly do no believe that because it seems people in such environment will just unconsciously or even consciously shut you out.
Interesting that some of you guys mention that since game developers often work 16+ hours a day, it is just more comfortable to wear casual clothes. I totally get that sentiment as I also work in the tech industry and work long OT. However, there are a few opinions floating in my head that I am curious what you guys would say about. First of all, doctors, lawyers and other professionals of these types work plenty of OT like us. They do them in suits and stuff no problem, so why it such a problem for us in tech? I personally find good dress pants to be even more comfortable to sit on than jeans. Secondly, I think there might be a bigger issue at play here that isn't talked about when we mention horrible work environment for game developers. I think part of the reason why these people work all these OT is partly due to a complete lack of respect for this profession. Nobody takes these guys seriously and call them man child jokingly. I have wondered about that often myself as to why that is the case. Even if you are a talented individual at your work, I think the appearance of professionalism is still very important. Wearing a Star Trek t-shirt that talks about Picard vs Kirk or whatever makes it harder for business-type people take you seriously and implicitly think you are a child at heart. Plus the unkept beard is just unpleasant to look at ugh... Combined that with developer's passion for their craft, it becomes the perfect storm for a business-oriented individual to take advantage of you and let you work many OT hours. I would never hear insanely unreasonable request made to other old school professions such as lawyers or accountants because the general public respect them and feel they are professional at their jobs. Game developers don't give that vibe and is harder to earn respect from the general public. Reduce those insane OT built in this industry and maybe that's one less reason to dress and appear sloppy and unprofessional. However, to get there, the game developers need to start by appearing more professional and less like man babies when they come to work so they can be seen more maturely. At least, I think the power of appearance is very important in this aspect.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
I guess the idea of creativity and clothing is just foreign to a stereotypical "guy" like me. I look in my closet for the first pair of clean jeans or shorts and then look for my shirt and I head out the door. All in all, I spend probably less than two minutes considering my appearance for anything other than a formal occasion.Yeah, when I was at college, my attire was all about what I could afford... had nothing to do with creativity. As long as I had something that looked reasonable and could afford to go down the pub, everything was good
No, I've been saying the issue that it's emblematic of, is an issue and I always feel uncomfortable going to "game dev" related events because I'm not white and I don't wear plaid and I don't like popular geek culture: Star Wars, traditional rock, etc.
Man, the only plaid shirt I own is a light button up long sleeve I've had since the late 90's I wear around the house to keep warm or do yard work in. It's all worn out and torn up. But that's really it, the rest of my shirts are normal Ts (both with designs and plain single color), casual collared full/half button-ups.
GustyGardens
Banned
You don't need to be wearing a suit to look nice and professional, especially in an industry that thrives on the creativity of these individuals. I do, however, agree that some people should take a little more care in how they look and present themselves. I really think it's more that they're clueless, rather than a fuck it mentality.
Zoloft Sonic
Member
There's lots of creative, technical, and career overlap between games, tv, and movies.
But gaming is definitely a standout among the 'big media 3' for how bad people dress.
TV/film people err on the dressy-casual side. Jeans tshirts, but also oxford button-downs, fitted v-necks, shoes made of leather, etc.
Game devs might be happier in sweatpants (something I'd honestly never seen at work before) and graphic tees than anyone on the planet. Break the code in the office, and you will definitely stand out.
Does this matter in some big-picture principle way? Nah. Do game devs tend to dress themselves like unironic 15 year old boys? Honestly, yeah.
But gaming is definitely a standout among the 'big media 3' for how bad people dress.
TV/film people err on the dressy-casual side. Jeans tshirts, but also oxford button-downs, fitted v-necks, shoes made of leather, etc.
Game devs might be happier in sweatpants (something I'd honestly never seen at work before) and graphic tees than anyone on the planet. Break the code in the office, and you will definitely stand out.
Does this matter in some big-picture principle way? Nah. Do game devs tend to dress themselves like unironic 15 year old boys? Honestly, yeah.
Haunted
Member
Well, they get paid for it.
As do I. I make sure my clothes aren't too ratty, and that my top isn't the exact color as my pants, and that's about it.
I don't particularly think that fashion tastes are due to much in the way of inherent gender differences, it's just every person has a range of things they care about and a range of stuff they can't be arsed to figure out. For whatever reason women broadly get judged a lot more for fashion, and (causing, or as a result) women's fashion is far more broad as well.
I'm not sure I buy the springboard of her thesis, because people tend to conform to the wider environment in most respects—it's not white male thing. It's also laughable to say that "they wear boring outfits = hivemind lack of creativity." I think the article tells me a lot more about how she feels about her coworkers than how they actually are and think.
There's certainly valid issues with what she points out later—how women can get slammed for either being too sexy or not sexy enough. But her framing device just seems weak.
As long as you don't smell I don't care much about your sense of style, but yeah insofar as live events, shows, etc where you're the public face of your company it is odd that people don't seem to make any effort. Some people definitely fear the "trying too hard" label, but just looking professional and competent isn't a hard goal to achieve. I guess for some people, any sort of acquiescence to professional standards implies giving up something of their identity (which in a way is what the author is complaining about.)
Iunderstoodthatreference.gif
TrebuchetGames
Member
There is a massive difference between customer facing attire and casual office clothing. I mean hospital Doctors or police, it's a uniform to look professional to the public and serves a function - i.e to prevent spread of germs, to prevent being stabbed.
If you are saying that people who wear jeans, shirt's and t-shirts cannot look causal and smart, I would say that is wrong
I have yet to see someone who looked overly scruffy in their casual clothing in a games environment.Even though people might criticise lots of people wearing plaid shirts, they certainly do not look terrible. Some people may not like them in the fashion sense, but I don't see a person wearing a t-shirt and think, they are really unprofessional.
TrebuchetGames
Member
Except for when I was younger where I had to buy stuff myself, I generally don't buy any clothes.... my wife buys them for me. I just don't care for fashion at all. I spend very little time on my appearance also
Though I do regret going out in my Xmas Reindeer jumper now and again :/
Isn't that for sanitary reasons and working with sick people?
This is basically the best summation of what she was saying
The number of posts defending clothing blows my mind
Exactly. In fact, her resolution of wearing what she wants to wear anyway, albeit aided by inspirational women, does absolutely nothing to combat the issue she frames this article around.
She doesn't offer how she, by wearing a floral dress, has injected a higher level of creativity into the gaming industry. That's why I said this was more of a personal journey of a young professional becoming comfortable being herself. The whole creativity in the industry line feels tacked to try to add some level of depth to the conversation that just isn't there.
Stilton Disco
Member
Nerdy people in an extremely nerdy job dress like big bunch of nerds.
Shocking! Shocking I say!
Shocking! Shocking I say!
TrebuchetGames
Member
You could say all work environments are intimidating though... regardless of your background.
The games industry is actually the opposite to what you've quoted. People with tattoos, piercings, gothic clothing, long hair, the games industry is actually more open to a wide range of people and cares less about how they look and more what they can do. This is not what can be said of *many* normal work environments where you wouldnt get past the first interview if you turned up with any of that.
As someone who has worked in Game Development for the past 8 years, I would love to see this happen.
In all the companies I've worked for, yes they were predominantly male, but the style of dress, person to person, is very much quite diverse. I've worked with men and women who dress in "Goth" styles, grunge styles, formal styles and even the occasional steam punk obsessed style. I've known women who wear sundresses and pantsuits. I've worked with a man who regularly wore a kilt. I've worked with straight, gay and transgender individuals, all of whom wore whichever style of clothing made them feel most comfortable, and have never once witnessed any negative interactions beyond the slight discomfort of not knowing til you know. I believe very strongly that on the development side of the industry this issue of dress code diversity is practically non-existent. That's not to say it does not exist in related industries, especially the media side of the game industry, but, in development, it's defiantly more of a high school clique effect than a general lack of diversity or acceptance. This is not a industry issue, but a natural human behavior that uniforms/dress codes were designed to mitigate.
Back to the cotton dress, be careful what you wish for. The video game industry, in my experience, is the most accepting of personal choices that I know of. The kind of events described in the article also tend to involve some to large amounts of alcohol. Should you give 100-500 slightly intoxicated game developers a cotton dress, your just asking to have 50-250 slightly intoxicated game developers wearing a cotton dress.
HarryKS
Member
I was talking mostly about conventions. At the very least they should dress up.
E3 being the biggest trade show of the industry, you have to show some dignity.
Even at award shows they wear graphic t-shirts and jeans.
They frankly look like morons.
No wonder the industry does not impose respect if the most prominent creators appear to have no notion of sartorial civility.
I'd argue wearing graphic t-shirts and plaid symbolize an actual lack of creativity. A suit is not solely about looking professional. It's about looking good.
It reminds me of the arguments I kept hearing from many people I know who said they'd never wear one.
Always the same song until they try a well-fitted one on. Then they change their tune.
Not sure why it blows your mind... that's what the article was about. If it was supposed to represent intimidation and lack of acceptance, she should have put some examples of how her co-workers responded to her. Or she should have changed the narrative entirely and removed the thesis of "Clothing is relative to creativity".
Like, she goes to the launch party and all her coworkers tell her to leave because she looks too "dressed up" or how no one talks to her or everyone avoids her in the office because of her choice of clothing. But there is nothing like that in the article. The closest you get is an exec telling her that she cannot stream with another woman because don't want to sell sex, which is devoid of context but rather just an offhanded mention. She should have spoken more on this. Hell her whole article should have been about this
But as for the industry that she is looking to change, she doesn't really paint a picture of a lack of acceptance or rejection. It really reads like she was just uncomfortable standing out, and now she's not. There is no mention of how her coworkers have changed or grown.
I dunno maybe she just didn't do a good job getting her point across. Speak about how an exec would not allow you and another woman to stream. Bam, i'm interested and i'm on your side.
Speak about how plaid shirts = less creative gaming and you have completely lost me.