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[shadowstar]

I was talking mostly about conventions. At the very least they should dress up.

E3 being the biggest trade show of the industry, you have to show some dignity.

Even at award shows they wear graphic t-shirts and jeans.

They frankly look like morons.

No wonder the industry does not impose respect if the most prominent creators appear to have no notion of sartorial civility.


I'd argue wearing graphic t-shirts and plaid symbolize an actual lack of creativity. A suit is not solely about looking professional. It's about looking good.

It reminds me of the arguments I kept hearing from many people I know who said they'd never wear one.

Always the same song until they try a well-fitted one on. Then they change their tune.

Yeah sorry but few people care or Steve Jobs wouldn't have been walking around in the same black turtle neck and Walmart jeans on stage.

When you run your own studio please feel free to force your employees to wear suits. In the meantime who are you to tell people how they should dress to an environment you're not a part of?

 

[KHlover]

Interesting that some of you guys mention that since game developers often work 16+ hours a day, it is just more comfortable to wear casual clothes. I totally get that sentiment as I also work in the tech industry and work long OT. However, there are a few opinions floating in my head that I am curious what you guys would say about. First of all, doctors, lawyers and other professionals of these types work plenty of OT like us. They do them in suits and stuff no problem, so why it such a problem for us in tech? I personally find good dress pants to be even more comfortable to sit on than jeans. Secondly, I think there might be a bigger issue at play here that isn't talked about when we mention horrible work environment for game developers. I think part of the reason why these people work all these OT is partly due to a complete lack of respect for this profession. Nobody takes these guys seriously and call them man child jokingly. I have wondered about that often myself as to why that is the case. Even if you are a talented individual at your work, I think the appearance of professionalism is still very important. Wearing a Star Trek t-shirt that talks about Picard vs Kirk or whatever makes it harder for business-type people take you seriously and implicitly think you are a child at heart. Plus the unkept beard is just unpleasant to look at ugh... Combined that with developer's passion for their craft, it becomes the perfect storm for a business-oriented individual to take advantage of you and let you work many OT hours. I would never hear insanely unreasonable request made to other old school professions such as lawyers or accountants because the general public respect them and feel they are professional at their jobs. Game developers don't give that vibe and is harder to earn respect from the general public. Reduce those insane OT built in this industry and maybe that's one less reason to dress and appear sloppy and unprofessional. However, to get there, the game developers need to start by appearing more professional and less like man babies when they come to work so they can be seen more maturely. At least, I think the power of appearance is very important in this aspect.

Guess doctors in Germany dress differently than doctors in the US. None of the doctors I've visited so far wore a suit.

The doctors I've met in hospitals during various internships all wore the same attires as their medical practitioners

with just a lab coat added on top.

Doctors in their own office just wear whatever.

 

[JackelZXA]

The whole creativity in the industry line feels tacked to try to add some level of depth to the conversation that just isn't there.

It also carries an inflammatory subtext of "White, male, flannel, bearded types not only lack creativity, but are creating a problem for the industry." Anyone who fits that type, those who don't, and those that just find the judgmental subtext offensive will find issue with the line.

And yes, it comes off as a poor attempt to insert an argument into a personal perspective piece that doesn't actually support or build up to the declaration. It comes off as a last minute tangent at best, and naval gazing at worst.

Cropping it, or building additional points to back it up (especially because it is a simplified declaration of a complicated set of elements that may or may not be responsible for the issue proposed) would have improved the piece. As it is, it is a point of contention for readers that spurs argument or simply negatively colors the piece.

 

[xevis]

I'm a software engineer, and I've had conversations with college friends where they say "If someone showed up for an interview in a suit I wouldn't hire them on that basis." with a completely straight face. This logic always confused me, but it seems to be prevalent in certain companies.

Suits mean business. If you work in any kind of technical profession long enough you will learn to hate business people; for their arrogance, for their cluelessness and for their insistence on trying to dominate every discussion and set the technical direction for your work. In this kind of environment jeans + tshirt becomes an easy differentiator between the people who know and those who only pretend they do.

 

[Ke0]

Pressured to do what exactly....?

To dress like the bros to basically "hide" their body as much as possible.

 

[Wavebossa]

It also carries an inflammatory subtext of "White, male, flannel, bearded types not only lack creativity, but are creating a problem for the industry." Anyone who fits that type, those who don't, and those that just find the judgmental subtext offensive will find issue with the line.

And yes, it comes off as a poor attempt to insert an argument into a personal perspective piece that doesn't actually support or build up to the declaration. It comes off as a last minute tangent at best, and naval gazing at worst. Cropping it, or bringing it out into it's own subject, with additional points to back it up (especially because it is a simplified declaration of a complicated set of elements that may or may not be responsible for the issue proposed) would have improved the piece.

As it is, it is a point of contention for readers that spurs argument or simply negatively colors the piece.

Exactly, I couldn't have said it better myself. And, not to derail the thread.. but... when I read phrases like that... I wonder to myself... If I was white, I would really get tired of being the root of all evil in the gaming industry.

Honestly, most of our devs are white males and I never look at them and say, "If you guys weren't white, I bet you would be more creative with your code"

To dress like the bros to basically "hide" their body as much as possible.

Then that should have been the focus of the article. She only gives 2 examples of this. One was from a female coworker who called her too flashy, and the other was from an Exec saying he didn't want to sell sex by having 2 women streaming together. If this was the focus, it would have made for a much less muddled read.

 

[TrebuchetGames]

I'd argue wearing graphic t-shirts and plaid symbolize an actual lack of creativity. A suit is not solely about looking professional. It's about looking good.

Or perhaps they just like the graphic picture on the t-shirt or like plaid. Doesn't have anything to do with creativity at all does it really, absolutely nothing - or are we stereotyping creative people by saying they have to do something different to other people to be a real creative. It's like those annoying game company websites that show all their designers messing with lego and claydo because it suddenly makes them super "Creatives".

Sounds like you prefer suits, that's great, but has nothing at all to do with creativity or how good/bad you are. Though I agree in certain circumstances suits are preferred to give the sense of professionalism. But I've known many people in suits who couldn't manage a project or people at all... they looked good though.

 

[NoRéN]

Who cares what other people wear? Shouldn't they be comfortable, too?

Exactly.

Some people feel most comfortable in a suit. Some people feel most comfortable in jeans and a tshirt. Why judge?

 

[Hahs]

The idea that companies would hire someone because they aren't casual enough is like some twisted version of the older mentality the east coast had.

Reminds me of some of the dialogue from the GTA 5 - LifeInvader Mission:

Employee: Really? The brief was for a relaxed creative individual. The kind that preferred a beanbag over a real chair, but if your so 'bound' to social restraints...

 

[Innolis]

I don't really see the point of the article, I mean it exists...but the topic seems really...vapid.

 

[PdotMichael]

I'm a software engineer, and I've had conversations with college friends where they say "If someone showed up for an interview in a suit I wouldn't hire them on that basis." with a completely straight face. This logic always confused me, but it seems to be prevalent in certain companies.

Well, I would say that's a pretty effective way of avoiding the shitty companies.

 

[gaugebozo]

Exactly.

Some people feel most comfortable in a suit. Some people feel most comfortable in jeans and a tshirt. Why judge?

This is something as someone coming out of school and going for tech jobs I find incredibly annoying. "We're a team of iconoclasts who value creativity and diversity above anything!... NO SUITS."

 

[Jobbs]

I sometimes wear clothes while I game dev. I don't think it's usually plaid. I'm not sure if I conform or not.

 

[Wavebossa]

This is something as someone coming out of school and going for tech jobs I find incredibly annoying. "We're a team of iconoclasts who value creativity and diversity above anything!... NO SUITS."

Maybe its a regional thing? I've worked for a few software companies in Texas and you better believe everyone was dressed to the 9s for their interview. After the interview... yeah they fell off HARD, but some people still wear suits here and there.

I feel like its not that big of a deal because I've never seen it become a big deal.

 

[timetokill]

I remember my first day at EA I got (gently) mocked by my superior for wearing a suit. He said it was a relaxed environment and suits made people uncomfortable.

Then I saw a guy who wore a gi and Japanese sandals everywhere.

I was coming out of business school and it was VERY confusing.

 

[TrebuchetGames]

Well, I would say that's a pretty effective way of avoiding the shitty companies.

Well i guess it depends on the situation. If say on your website/interview information you said "We are a casual attire business, no-one wears suits"... And then you turn up in a suit it shows that you cannot even follow simple instructions, or research the type of company you are going to.

If that information isn't available, then of course they shouldn't get lambasted for wearing a suit... but it's crazy how many people don't even do basic research on the company they are going to interview at.

 

[Wavebossa]

I remember my first day at EA I got (gently) mocked by my superior for wearing a suit. He said it was a relaxed environment and suits made people uncomfortable.

Maybe i'm just a jerk because my response would have been something like "Haha... they'll learn to deal with it."

 

[stan423321]

Guess doctors in Germany dress differently than doctors in the US. None of the doctors I've visited so far wore a suit.

The doctors I've met in hospitals during various internships all wore the same attires as their medical practitioners (image) with just a lab coat added on top (image).

Doctors in their own office just wear whatever.

Yeah, basically the same in Poland except in one case, "whatever" happened to be suit.

This must be a US thing it seems.

 

[KennyLinder]

We had a laugh about this article today. I work in a game studio of about 40 people, around 6 being women. They wear what they damn well please, from dresses, skirts, jeans t-shirt and whatever.

It is generally a much more casual industry for dress wear though. For example, I've never once wore a suit to a job interview, wouldn't do for a second. Jeans, shirt and trainers.

I am afraid if she has issues with the clothes, that's really her issue.


Also, who's fault is it that people are saying they're selling sex by wearing dresses to a typically male audience? The same industry that SHE is part of. Stirring shit, creating news where there isn't any. It's actually a fucking nonsense article and I am not sure what the point of it was.

 

[meltingparappa]

Not her point, but are there really people who really think a dev floor with employees working 16 hour days in a three piece suits during would increase productivity?

 

[freakzilla149]

Whether it's the portrayal of women in games or their lack of presence in the industry; or even the broader issue of diversity and creativity in the industry. There's a lot to improve.

However, this is so far down that list it doesn't even deserve an article. This is just looking for something to criticise.

 

[ab.aeterno]

You know you're the guy accusing me calling someone here an idiot. Just quote me and get over with. I don't even blame you for not getting why I pointed out what idiot means, you just skipped the context.

Yeah, I'm not going to quote out every time you've called someone an idiot when my point is only preciated on the fact that you have and that's easily done by, you know, clicking the link or searching yourself. Edit: But since it's clear you're not going to engage otherwise, here's a few posts of you calling people idiots. I guess you can argue you're not doing it to other GAF members, but when your objection is over the insult's meaning, that doesn't really help.

I'm not sure what context makes it ok for you to call other people idiots and that's ok, but another user wanting (and not actually) wanting to call other people idiots is totally not. But I guess pointing out what it means absolves you of that or something. Feel free to explain the context instead of just being an aggressive ass about it.

 

[Yoshi]

Not her point, but are there really people who really think a dev floor with employees working 16 hour days in a three piece suits during would increase productivity?

I seriously doubt suits can in any way increase productivity unless the person wearing it deeply associates positive values with the suit.

However, I always wear what's comfortable for me, be it while game developing, while working at the university or working as a games journalist. That's typically a T-Shirt (if possible unicolour, but that's just because I like that, nothing wrong with motto shirts from my perspective) and a Jeans as well as comfortable shoes. People like her, who try to judge people on their clothes are - from my perspective - a nuisance and just as I wouldn't care what she wears, I wouldn't accept any comment from her regarding my clothes because, well, it's me who has to wear them and feel comfortable in them. If she has (had) issues with wearing clothes that look different from the majority, that's solely her problem, not that of society.

 

[system11]

They frankly look like morons.

I learned not to judge people based on how they dress, it's an important part of a maturing world. As long as it's not offensive and it's clean, I really don't see any problem. I've turned down numerous jobs over the years because they had a dress code which mandated trousers, shirts and ties. Work is difficult enough without feeling uncomfortable.

 

[Lord_Balkan]

I seriously doubt suits can in any way increase productivity unless the person wearing it deeply associates positive values with the suit.

However, I always wear what's comfortable for me, be it while game developing, while working at the university or working as a games journalist. That's typically a T-Shirt (if possible unicolour, but that's just because I like that, nothing wrong with motto shirts from my perspective) and a Jeans as well as comfortable shoes. People like her, who try to judge people on their clothes are - from my perspective - a nuisance and just as I wouldn't care what she wears, I wouldn't accept any comment from her regarding my clothes because, well, it's me who has to wear them and feel comfortable in them. If she has (had) issues with wearing clothes that look different from the majority, that's solely her problem, not that of society.

Exactly. It honestly just sounds like she is projecting her own insecurities to the game developing industry- an industry she is not a part of.

Here, people dress in all manners. Some more business casual, some even less casual than jeans and a tshirt. I came in today with Nike shorts, a walmart plain tshirt and Jordans. Last week, I did a polo and some nice slacks. In both cases, I wore what I wanted and no one cared. And if someone did care, I wouldn't care. We value and judge people on their quality of work, not on something as superficial as clothing.

This article just sounds like someone surprised that people in tech / gaming don't give a crap what other people wear. The woman that hired me bragged to me that she can come in with jeans and a hoodie. That is as anecdotal as this article.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

Not sure why it blows your mind... that's what the article was about. If it was supposed to represent intimidation and lack of acceptance, she should have put some examples of how her co-workers responded to her. Or she should have changed the narrative entirely and removed the thesis of "Clothing is relative to creativity".

She could have easily included some mention of clothing, but it should have been more nuanced and not the framing for the article. If she wanted to make it the focus, then she really needed to do more to show that creativity is somehow tied to how you're able to dress. And like you said, give more examples of her co-worker's responses. Are industries with mandatory dress codes creatively dead? I doubt it. If you look at this passage:

Creativity begins with how we feel and how we see and present ourselves as people. This industry isn’t just dressing identically, it draws its inspiration from the same music, movies and books. This homogeneity leads to staid ideas.

The bolded part is actually a really interesting point. The lack of diversity could certainly come from having the games industry made up of people with similar backgrounds in nerd culture and from a "games, games" lifestyle. But clothing? Plaid shirts and jeans aren't a "gamer" thing, if anything they're just something that's a normal trend within society.

 

[OfficerZap]

Don't be a dick.

Only one being a dick here is you.

An industry known for being a boy's club and pushing away women doubling its representation of women in a short period of time is something to be encouraged.

 

[Kindekuma]

Going to SIGGRAPH in LA this august will have a sea of people in nothing but plaid shirts. That's the most common dress code for people in the industry, business casual.

 

[kingkaiser]

Well, there is a saying here in Germany that goes like:

"Karohemd und Samenstau, ich studier Maschinenbau"

Loosely translated:

"Plaid shirt and blue balls, mechanical engineering calls"

 

[system11]

The bolded part is actually a really interesting point. The lack of diversity could really come from having the games industry made up of people with similar backgrounds in nerd culture and from a "games, games" lifestyle. But clothing? Plaid shirts and jeans aren't a "gamer" thing, if anything they're just something that's a normal trend within society.

Trouble is their interest in games is why they're able to do that job. It's like trying to force diversity in books by employing people who only care about sailing.

 

[Waylon Drums]

This could be applied to anything. I come from a very working-class background and chose a career in education. I never even owned a tie before I started working but I had to figure it out. Am I being discriminated against because I have to dress differently than I would normally while at work?

 

[HarryKS]

I learned not to judge people based on how they dress, it's an important part of a maturing world. As long as it's not offensive and it's clean, I really don't see any problem. I've turned down numerous jobs over the years because they had a dress code which mandated trousers, shirts and ties. Work is difficult enough without feeling uncomfortable.

At a convention. In front of a crowd. It's a case of savoir vivre.

 

[JackelZXA]

The bolded part is actually a really interesting point. The lack of diversity could certainly come from having the games industry made up of people with similar backgrounds in nerd culture and from a "games, games" lifestyle. But clothing? Plaid shirts and jeans aren't a "gamer" thing, if anything they're just something that's a normal trend within society.

The big thing here is that...every developer has a million and one ideas that don't get used in the game. Games are expensive to make, and the ideas that get used end up being the ones with a high guarantee of success. It's less about the artists, and more about market research.

 

[Kurt Angle]

gotta throw all my plaid shirts out today


Last thing i wanna look like is a game industry people

 

[Shpeshal Nick]

Not sure I can be with her on this one. She was warned shed be too dressy and went with it anyway.

Also, its true, if she dressed sexier on camera, there'd be articles about either:

- She's using sex for attention she may otherwise not have received

- Her company is using her as a sex object for attention.

Looks like lose/lose to me. Political correctness has basically taken away women's rights to do just about anything they want to do to feel like an individual.

 

[The Technomancer]

People are getting hung up on the party thing. I think the idea that she felt pressured into jeans and t-shirts over casual dresses in the workplace is more interesting

 

[Opinionatedfish]

The bolded part is actually a really interesting point. The lack of diversity could really come from having the games industry made up of people with similar backgrounds in nerd culture and from a "games, games" lifestyle. But clothing? Plaid shirts and jeans aren't a "gamer" thing, if anything they're just something that's a normal trend within society.

Too many people go: "So, I want my game to be like this one that I like." OR "My game is going to be about this subject!"

Instead they should ask: "What are the mechanics of my game?"

I'm currently working on editing up a panel video about pitching a board game idea to a board game publisher.. from a board game publisher. The panel really digs in that you need good MECHANICS before anything else.

Let's be honest here, the games we remember as amazing are the best for their mechanics: writing, gameplay, engine, and so forth.

Let's look at, say, Banjo-Kazooie. That's a good game, but you could replace the bird and bear with Mario or a lizard and a bat anytime. The game would still be a GOOD GAME because the mechanics of the game work.

Maybe it's not what the your game is wearing, but what your game actually is?

But yeah.. too much complacency with learned cultural norms leads to stagnation. Clothing is just a visual symptom. There's a "coders are generally sloppy looking" stigma that just seeped over. It would be for the best if coders started taking better care of themselves, you know.. eating healthier... dressing a little better... showering more... taking power naps... things like that. We worry about them.

 

[ekim]

Just one thing: Never wear a short-sleeved checked shirt. Especially not one with those silly prints like 1782 Yacht club New England Super duper something.

or these things...

 

[Wavebossa]

People are getting hung up on the party thing. I think the idea that she felt pressured into jeans and t-shirts over casual dresses in the workplace is more interesting

It could have been, if she talked about it more. She just said that she consciously started dressing more like a boy. She didn't give any anecdotal event that caused her to have such a radical change - floral dresses to boy clothes really?

She felt pressure but never identified her male coworkers as a source. If anything, according to her article, the sources of pressure were from:

-Internet trolls (who would only see her while streaming)
-Her female coworker
-An exec who didn't like the idea of 2 women streaming together (but did not mention the outfits)

The whole "Goodbye Floral Dresses, Hello t-shirts line" needs a why attached to it.

 

[Kurt Angle]

Just one thing: Never wear a short-sleeved checked shirt. Especially not one with those silly prints like 1782 Yacht club New England Super duper something.

or these things...

how about these -

 

[Kindekuma]

As long as you wear something appropriate for the workplace, there should be nothing wrong with what one wears. If you want to wear a dress or skirt, then go ahead. I don't see why there needs to be a need to dress in an androgynous style.

 

[Lord_Balkan]

how about these -

See, I wear a lot of plaid as well, but not hipster plaid. I wear more gangster plaid.

I exchange the raiders hat with a bulls beanie though.

 

[stan423321]

As long as you wear something appropriate for the workplace, there should be nothing wrong with what one wears. If you want to wear a dress or skirt, then go ahead. I don't see why there needs to be a need to dress in an androgynous style.

Everything can lie behind this expression.

 

[WorriedCitizen]

Games industry = wear whatever you like. Nobody gives a shit. Only exception is: don't wear a suit at a job interview. Afterwards nobody cares. If you like suits wear suiuts. People will just assume that you wear them ironically.

 

[mStudios]

how about these -

ayyyyyyyy

 

[NetMapel]

Guess doctors in Germany dress differently than doctors in the US. None of the doctors I've visited so far wore a suit.

The doctors I've met in hospitals during various internships all wore the same attires as their medical practitioners

with just a lab coat added on top.

Doctors in their own office just wear whatever.

Well, I guess there is a difference. Doctors I've seen here are mostly like this:

Either way though, I think my point still stands. Appearance matters, period. People will look at you and judge you visually. If you look sloppy with unkept hair, bad hygiene, whatever t-shirt and shorts, well... you are far more likely to be judged negatively with less respect especially from the business side of things. So the whole industry ends up getting less respect than others that dress up a little nicer. There is a difference between business casual and "casual" that I see in game industry. Sales, marketing, advertising, architecture, smaller business in general... etc are all business casual, and I'd definitely say the people there still dress better than the average game developers. They can all work 100 hours weeks with fancier clothing, why can't game developers ?

 

[Lord_Balkan]

Well, I guess there is a difference. Doctors I've seen here are mostly like this:

Either way though, I think my point still stands. Appearance matters, period. People will look at you and judge you visually. If you look sloppy with unkept hair, bad hygiene, whatever t-shirt and shorts, well... you are far more likely to be judged negatively with less respect especially from the business side of things. So the whole industry ends up getting less respect than others that dress up a little nicer. There is a difference between business casual and "casual" that I see in game industry. Sales, marketing, advertising, architecture, smaller business in general... etc are all business casual, and I'd definitely say the people there still dress better than the average game developers. They can all work 100 hours weeks with fancier clothing, why can't game developers ?

I don't care what other people think of my clothes.

Most people working in a company do not interface with the public, so why does it matter to you or them? I can see a case for public image, PR etc, but most people are not in that situation or don't care to be in that situation.

 

[Doug Heffernan]

I like plaid, it's comfortable.

 

[John Rabbit]

Speak about how plaid shirts = less creative gaming and you have completely lost me.

sounds like a leah alexander piece.

 

[GorillaJu]

Plaid shirts and jeans is the "I need to dress up more than just a t-shirt, but don't want to wear a suit" for people who don't really have a work uniform and can wear whatever they want.

I don't disagree with her thought process but it's a rather personal "how I feel about how I should dress" topic more than anything indicative of a problem in the industry. And there's nothing wrong with her boss who told her not to be on stream in revealing clothing and it's not anyone taking ownership of her body, it's just recognition of how video game marketing is perceived, and they want to differentiate themselves. It's all a big non-issue.

It's also a localized 'problem'. I work at a major dev studio in Tokyo and there are plenty of girls here who all wear very feminine clothing – skirts, dresses, pumps, long hair, make-up, etc. And our receptionist girls are <<<<<333333